Author Topic: My apology to JSB (Read 6710 times)

YourMathTeacher · « **on:** July 13, 2010, 11:30:25 AM »

I would be a hypocrite if I did not hold myself to the same standards that I hold others, so I post this publicly.

As a high school teacher, I get paid (woo-hoo!) to correct student behavior and language. This becomes more habit than anything else, so that I remain consistent. I correct students almost every day, so much so that the students start to mimic my phrases. I often hear students in the hallway or at lunch saying things like, "That wasn't very positive" or, "You need to Save Face." These are phrases that I use in class. The students get used to my rules and adjust their vocabulary accordingly. However, my students know the boundaries I have in my classroom because I emphasize them from day one of the school year. They see me correcting other students, so they know it is nothing personal.

JSB did not have that luxury. I responded to a bad word the way I always do, but he didn't know that.

MKC made the comment that sometimes Christians can press too hard and become offensive themselves. If I crossed that line, then I apologize to JSB, MJB, and any others that were offended by my posts. That was not my intent. I was in "teacher mode." Just the sight of the "p" word brought back haunting memories of "the belt." My parents would have made wonderful Egyptian Taskmasters.

I still think that we, as Christians, must be careful of what we say when there is obvious objection. Ephesians 5:4 is the verse I use to limit my own speech. My standards are higher than most, but that is because I am more accountable than most as a teacher who stands in front of hundreds of teenagers each day. Please consider that context before you take anything I say personally, and let me know when I cross the line. I want to be held accountable myself, even by those who are younger than me. The Bible is very clear that I should not "look down on your youth."

SomeKittens · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:56:40 AM »

Wow. I read through that whole discussion, and I agree with your standpoint on said word. However, I think that this apology sets a much better model for us young'uns on the forum to follow, regardless of who's right.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:36:41 PM »

if you teach vocab stuff how come your boardname says you're my math teacher?

Deist · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:48:01 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingofFortressAlstad on July 13, 2010, 09:36:41 PM

if you teach vocab stuff how come your boardname says you're my math teacher?

Right now I wish he was "YourGrammarTeacher." How hard is it to capitalize the first letter of a sentence?

lightningninja · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:58:45 PM »

Quote from: Deist on July 13, 2010, 09:48:01 PM

Quote from: KoalaKingofFortressAlstad on July 13, 2010, 09:36:41 PM
if you teach vocab stuff how come your boardname says you're my math teacher?

Right now I wish he was "YourGrammarTeacher." How hard is it to capitalize the first letter of a sentence?

Way to miss a post. Was that sarcasm really necessary? Did him not capitalizing that letter p... tick you off?

Basically, it doesn't matter it's not like he's spelling everything wrong, he just didn't capitalize.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 13, 2010, 11:30:25 AM

If I crossed that line, then I apologize to JSB, MJB, and any others that were offended by my posts. That was not my intent.

FWIW, I was not offended by your posts. If you had used Ephesians 4:29 as a basis for your comments, I would have had no issues with that at all. I am extremely troubled, however, by a pattern of behavior I have seen from some of the purportedly mature Christians on this board. It was my concern in that regard that caused me to post.

We know from Gabe's testimony posted in the thread in question that judgmental legalism does negatively effect the spiritual walk of our brothers and sisters in Christ. From earlier threads, we know that this behavior comes close to causing salvation questions for some members on this board. (I would point you to some of Minister Polarius's posts about Romans 14 as it applies to the subject of drinking to see what I mean.) This type of issue is precisely what Romans 14 addresses. Yet in numerous posts across multiple threads we see some mature Christians repeatedly proclaiming their right to judge others on the board and then doing so with no apparent thought towards how their behavior may be affecting their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Maybe I am imagining problems where none exist. Maybe I am exaggerating things because my personal history causes me to fall very far to the grace side of Christianity. That said, my concern remains that I see a spirit on these boards towards this topic that seems to run directly opposite to a quite straightforward command...

Quote from: Romans 14:13

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

The Schaef · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2010, 10:50:51 PM »

I see the exact same issue for which you are expressing concern. However, I have a suspicion our thoughts on its manifestation might be on opposite sides of the fence.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:09:04 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM

I am extremely troubled, however, by a pattern of behavior I have seen from some of the purportedly mature Christians on this board.

I'll give you a Buckler if you'll forgive me.

drb1200 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 14, 2010, 07:45:22 AM »

I forgive you YMT. Send the Buckler to:

DRB
500 Jackson Hall Road
Celebrityville, CA 12345

soul seeker · « **Reply #9 on:** July 14, 2010, 09:26:07 AM »

When there is a clash of convictions, then I think love should win out. Love calls for restraint and respect. Depending on our view of the Christian walk...some of us should show more restraint...others more respect.

MJB and others, I ask you this: where does accountability come into play? What should a Christian do when one's conviction is in fact sin? (for clarity: I'm not referring to the use of words, but the overall attitude of, "don't correct me because that's being judgmental.")

What should the early church have done with the man in 1 Corinthians?
What should they have done with the Nicolaitans*?

How do you hold someone accountable without coming off as judgmental?

* Nicolaitans: A heretical sect within the early church that had worked out a compromise with the pagan society. They apparently taught that spiritual liberty gave them sufficient leeway to practice idolatry and immorality.

YMT may could have used a little more love and respect in his post, but I'm not so sure that he was wrong or legalistic. Then again, we may need a clear definition of legalism before this goes much further. YMT doesn't fit my definition.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2010, 09:49:40 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM

Yet in numerous posts across multiple threads we see some mature Christians repeatedly proclaiming their right to judge others on the board and then doing so with no apparent thought towards how their behavior may be affecting their brothers and sisters in Christ.

I feel like your judging me

I assume that you are talking about me (and perhaps others) in the statement above, and I wanted to share some of my heart with you about this subject. I teach at a Christian boarding school full of teenagers who have grown up in environments where there was no accountability. Their parents (or parent or grandparents or aunts, or whoever raised them) either did not have rules, or did not enforce them. As a result, they made poor enough choices with their lives that their families decided to send them away to boarding school.

When they arrive, they say the same types of things that I read on the forum often. They say, "Don't judge me" and "Nobody's perfect" and "That's just a little thing, it doesn't matter". But these are half-truths that are leading them down a path of destruction. As their teacher, and as a Christian it is my responsibility to respond with the truth.

The truth is that although we can not judge a person's heart, that we are supposed to judge people's actions, and we are supposed to hold fellow Christians accountable for their actions. The truth is that although no one (except Jesus) is perfect, that as Christians we are supposed to at least TRY to be perfect even as our Heavenly Father is perfect. The truth is that although what they are doing wrong may be a little thing, that God wants us to be faithful in the little things so that He can trust us with the bigger things.

I understand that you are concerned that perhaps my coming down on stuff could push people away from salvation. And please know that I do indeed put "thought towards how their behavior may be affecting their brothers and sisters in Christ." But I have found in my life that when I avoid confrontation with people because of fear of shaking their faith, that they end up losing their faith in the long run anyway. But when I take the risk and confront people that often the end result is actually that their faith is stronger. And although I do try to communicate in a way that will more likely lead to people's growth, I am not responsible for their response, only for being obedient in warning them. Ezekiel 33:1-6

I hope that this helps you to see where I'm coming from and perhaps why we see this issue differently. I also hope that as Christian brothers and Redemption friends that we can continue to challenge one another and that "we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds." (Heb 10:24)

JSB23 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2010, 10:32:06 PM »

It's an internet forum
You have no personal connection with most of these people, you're not our parent, you're not our pastor, It's not your job.

drb1200 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2010, 10:36:03 PM »

In case you didn't get it, YMT is apologizing to you JSB.

D-man · « **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:05:03 PM »

Quote from: JSB23 on July 15, 2010, 10:32:06 PM

It's an internet forum
You have no personal connection with most of these people, you're not our parent, you're not our pastor, It's not your job.

I can't say I agree with that. As Christians, we are accountable to our brothers and sisters. Not just our pastors.

I personally don't think what you originally said was wrong in any way, JSB. But is it really that hard to just apologize to those you (unintentionally) offended and move on? We're supposed to be a loving body of Christians. Let's act like it.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Philippians 2:3-4

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34

Remember that I am not trying to judge you or prove you wrong or anything like that. It's just that I care about my brothers and sisters in Christ and want them to be at peace.

Godbless.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on July 14, 2010, 09:26:07 AM

MJB and others, I ask you this: where does accountability come into play?

In my opinion accountability comes into play within the bounds of a serious (and primarily formal) interpersonal relationship between believers. It also is something that should, as a matter of principle, be reserved for matters of sin and not personal preference unless you are invited to comment on those areas.

In the vast number of cases that trouble me and caused me to post I am having a very hard time seeing where either of the criteria I think are essential are being fulfilled. As to the first, I am personally dubious that an internet bulletin board such as this one is (in general) an appropriate venue for true Christian accountability. Beyond that, however, I am seeing "accountability" being offered by people who have no personal relationship to their targets beyond the fact they both participate on these boards.

As to the second part, the current case at hand the initial rebuke occurred solely over the use of a specific word. We have seen other instances arise over questions about a possible trip to Mardi Gras in New Orleans and about whether or not Christians should drink. As presented all of these topics would fall pretty much dead square under the covering of personal preference and Christian liberty.

Quote

Then again, we may need a clear definition of legalism before this goes much further.

I go back to the main thing that bothered me about the current case at hand. Legalism is clearly evident in the claim that Romans 14 means, "You must change your behavior because it offends my personal sensibilities."

Soul Seeker, I hope you can see that I have not taken your question lightly. In return I ask you this: What are we to make of the multiple places in Romans 14 where Paul exhorts Christians to not judge other Christians?

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 15, 2010, 11:30:35 PM

You feel that YMT did you wrong, and then when he apologizes, you essentially spit in his face.

RDT, in context it appears that JSB was responding to the post immediately above where Prof Underwood equated his role on this board to his profession as a teacher where that is his job.

JSB23 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:41:01 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 15, 2010, 11:30:35 PM
You feel that YMT did you wrong, and then when he apologizes, you essentially spit in his face.
RDT, in context it appears that JSB was responding to the post immediately above where Prof Underwood equated his role on this board to his profession as a teacher where that is his job.

That is precisely what I meant, I've already resolved whatever problems I had with YMT and I'm sorry if my post give a contrary impression

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #16 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:53:44 PM »

Ah, good call then. In that case I take back what I said. It was your first post on the thread so I didn't realize you were replying to Prof U. My apologies.

JSB23 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 15, 2010, 11:55:21 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 15, 2010, 11:53:44 PM

Ah, good call then. In that case I take back what I said. It was your first post on the thread so I didn't realize you were replying to Prof U. My apologies.

It's cool

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:03:01 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM

In my opinion accountability comes into play within the bounds of a serious (and primarily formal) interpersonal relationship between believers. It also is something that should, as a matter of principle, be reserved for matters of sin and not personal preference unless you are invited to comment on those areas.

If those are the only times that you feel a responsibility to hold fellow Christians accountable, then that is your conviction. Personally, I am convicted to at least try to hold people accountable more often. Silence is implied acceptance. And there are a lot of members on this forum who are both young of age and also young in their faith. Many of these members could easily get trapped in habits that could end up destroying their life if they are not warned to avoid certain behaviors.

You brought up use of alcohol and celebration of Mardi Gras in New Orleans. It is not a coincidence that two big problems that teenagers have in our country are underage drinking and pornography. I may not know your son personally very well (other than meeting him once at Nats in OH), and I may not know many of the people who are on this forum very well. But I still care about them as my Chrsitian brothers/sisters and simply as fellow human beings created in the image of God. And I care about them enough that I am willing to stand up and warn them against getting sucked into these traps that so many of their peers will succumb to. And I'm willing to do it despite it making me look like an old fuddy-duddy, and even getting rebuked by other forum members who are naturally trying to defend their son who they love.

You don't have to be someone's parent, pastor, or best-friend to care about them. I hope that you will someday be able to see my heart, and know that I am not attacking your son to tear him down. I am actually trying to do the same thing that you are. I'm trying to help him grow into the man that God wants him to be. And right now, I see someone who has an attitude that has the potential to get in the way of that. It would be cruel of me to see that, and (even if I'm wrong) NOT say anything to him.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:16:31 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM

In my opinion accountability comes into play within the bounds of a serious (and primarily formal) interpersonal relationship between believers. It also is something that should, as a matter of principle, be reserved for matters of sin and not personal preference unless you are invited to comment on those areas.

I disagree only because my primary occupation includes keeping hundreds of teenagers accountable on a daily basis, most of which I have never met. If I hear students swearing and do nothing, then I am not fulfilling my duty.

I do not say that to justify carrying that over onto the boards, but rather to explain the context in which my accountability falls. I do that now out of habit more than anything else, although I do care about the impression students make with their language. To many people, using the "p" word is akin to using the "f" word. I would certainly have said something on these boards if someone used that word.

Quote from: JSB23 on July 15, 2010, 11:41:01 PM

I've already resolved whatever problems I had with YMT ...

Yeah, we're cool.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:21:17 AM »

I'm not allowed to say 'Fuddy-duddy' anymore? You should let Prof U know

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:22:32 AM »

Oh pickles.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:24:40 AM »

Ban!

Oh wait, I can't do that. But, I can recommend. SCHAEF!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:39:15 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 14, 2010, 12:09:04 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM
I am extremely troubled, however, by a pattern of behavior I have seen from some of the purportedly mature Christians on this board.

I'll give you a Buckler if you'll forgive me.

YMT, I see no need for you to ask my forgiveness, because you have not offended me in any way. I would like to apologize to you or anyone else I offended in this brouhaha. I am sorry if I hurt you in any way as that was not my intention. (I originally had some light-hearted banter about needing to ship you a box of Bucklers, but I took that out as I don't want it to appear that my apology was less than serious.)

I am also sorry that I didn't respond to your post first. I missed it in my first read through of the thread.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:49:15 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 12:39:15 AM

...but I took that out as I don't want it to appear that my apology was less than serious.

Using brouhaha already took care of that. How can I take a word that ends with "haha" seriously?

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 12:39:15 AM

I am also sorry that I didn't respond to your post first.

I just have more time than you since my wife and kids are out of town for a month.

Your apology is not necessary, but I accept it graciously. Thus endeth the brouhaha.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:53:19 AM »

Urban Dictionary defines brouhaha as such:

Quote from: Urban Dictionary

chaos. often used to exlaim suppuriority. Used by uber nerds amd wana be posers.

Interesting.... almost as interesting as the spelling...

The Schaef · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2010, 01:14:40 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM

I go back to the main thing that bothered me about the current case at hand. Legalism is clearly evident in the claim that Romans 14 means, "You must change your behavior because it offends my personal sensibilities."

Soul Seeker, I hope you can see that I have not taken your question lightly. In return I ask you this: What are we to make of the multiple places in Romans 14 where Paul exhorts Christians to not judge other Christians?

It's interesting that you take this position, considering the context of that chapter primarily is not to judge brothers for being weaker in their faith than you, and therefore engaging in stricter practices. Example:

Quote

If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil.

I'm having a difficult time understanding how if my personal sensibilities are offended, you are not acting in love, you are destroying my faith, and in something you consider good, I am claiming you are doing evil, but in no way does that suggest you should alter that behavior in the least.

Or:

Quote

Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

If it is better not to do things that would cause a brother to fall, how is that not changing your otherwise-unconvicted behavior?

Deference is not legalism.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2010, 01:50:30 AM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on July 16, 2010, 12:53:19 AM

Urban Dictionary defines brouhaha as such:
Quote from: Urban Dictionary
chaos. often used to exlaim suppuriority. Used by uber nerds amd wana be posers.

Interesting.... almost as interesting as the spelling...

I should have used "hullaballoo" instead.

Quote from: The Schaef on July 16, 2010, 01:14:40 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM
I go back to the main thing that bothered me about the current case at hand. Legalism is clearly evident in the claim that Romans 14 means, "You must change your behavior because it offends my personal sensibilities."

It's interesting that you take this position, considering the context of that chapter primarily is not to judge brothers for being weaker in their faith than you, and therefore engaging in stricter practices.

I am failing understand the point you are trying to make. This most likely means that I have not explained my position clearly enough, so let me rephrase...

The exhortations in Romans 14 deals with my actions and my requirement to use my freedom as a believer responsibly. In verse 15, for example, we are told that if our action (in this case eating meat sacrificed to idols) distresses our brother we should not do it. Once I start talking about requiring you to accede to my sensibilities, however, we have an entirely different kettle of fish. This is highlighted in verse 3 where the non-meat eater is told to not condemn his brother for eating the meat.

Put another way, in the best case the person who eats meat sacrificed to idols will refrain out of his own love for his brother from eating the meat. Should the eater of meat choose to fall short of that standard, however, his brother has no basis to attempt to compel his obedience.

Quote

Deference is not legalism.

Correct, but commanding others to defer to you is legalism. More precisely, substituting my personal standards on disputable things and attempting to compel everyone else to abide by them is legalism.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2010, 02:06:50 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 01:50:30 AM

in the best case the person who eats meat sacrificed to idols will refrain out of his own love for his brother from eating the meat.

And if someone is NOT doing what is the best course of action it makes sense for others to point that out who wish to challenge him to live up to that.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 01:50:30 AM

Should the eater of meat choose to fall short of that standard, however, his brother has no basis to attempt to compel his obedience.

No one is compelling anyone here. YMT, myself, SS, Schaef, etc. have all encouraged JSB to do what you yourself say above is the best course of action. But no one is holding a gun to his head. No one is threatening to kick him off the forum, or even warn him. These people are simply trying to communicate to him that they think his choice in this matter should be different. That's not compelling, that's Christian accountability. Iron sharpens iron, my friend

The Schaef · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2010, 02:10:03 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 01:50:30 AM

Once I start talking about requiring you to accede to my sensibilities, however, we have an entirely different kettle of fish.
Correct, but commanding others to defer to you is legalism.

I'm sorry, did the words "require" and "command" suddenly enter into the discussion? If so, then it seems that what you are talking about is nothing like what I am talking about.

soul seeker · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2010, 11:00:35 AM »

First: I can't respond without a wall of text....sorry in advance, I will try to be concise.
MJB: We are coming from different angles, so that is why I asked for definitions.
where I'm coming from:
Accountability: Basic Premise: People turn a blind eye to their faults both large and small, therefore they need someone to come along side to highlight areas in which otherwise they wouldn't know exist. I agree with you on your definition in part. Accountability can be as you state, but I believe that kind is reserved for Stronghold's of sin in one's life that people can't correct themselves. "Large sin" if you will. For most guys, porn and/or lust comes to mind that needs to be taken care of in the way you describe. However, I think there is an accountability to our fellow Christians (which I believe Romans 14 describes) that doesn't need as deep of level and this is more "small sin" or difference in convictions (which ever the case may be) that I think all Christians have a responsibility in. That is why I don't feel YMT or Prof U (on the greater scale) is necessarily wrong when they say something. This leads to my other definitions: judgment & legalism.
*However, before I move on. I must acknowledge that we are interpreting Romans 14 different. I, like Schaef, believe that chapter is about Christian deferment and not judgment (as you will see in my future definitions). The chapter calls for peace (vs.17-19). It calls for restraint out of love, and both sides should not judge. An example: I don't think it's wrong to wear my hat in the sanctuary during non-worship times (business meetings/choir practices/etc.) and yet someone got on to me for doing so during a play practice. I didn't judge them or their motives. I didn't get angry or upset. I simply took it off and made a mental note not to do it again. The chapter calls for us to be considerate of others...to keep the peace.
Judgment & Legalism: I see these two terms interlinked. They both are devoid of love. They both put man in the place of God. They both look after their own interests. They both create a spiritual hierarchy. They both condemn instead of exhort. I don't think YMT or Prof Underwood does this and I don't think it's their motives. They want to help others and are motivated by love. I disagree with you that forcing something onto someone (which I don't think either has ever done) is a complete definition of judgment or legalism. Judgment is an attitude of spiritual snobbery and looking down on others. Legalism is questioning one's spirituality based on a set of laws that a person must jump through to get to God.
To answer your question about judgement: Frankly, I think it's for both sides. Both sides, believing they are right, judge the other side. Paul is encouraging both sides to have peace.

FWIW: I have greater concerns then just this word and the fallout, but for the sake of peace since it seems to be dieing down...I'll let it go.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2010, 09:08:34 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 16, 2010, 12:16:31 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 15, 2010, 11:38:51 PM
In my opinion accountability comes into play within the bounds of a serious (and primarily formal) interpersonal relationship between believers. It also is something that should, as a matter of principle, be reserved for matters of sin and not personal preference unless you are invited to comment on those areas.

I disagree only because my primary occupation includes keeping hundreds of teenagers accountable on a daily basis, most of which I have never met. If I hear students swearing and do nothing, then I am not fulfilling my duty.

YMT, I disagree with your characterization here. In your occupation you are not holding your students accountable in the Christian sense of the word. You are exercising Romans 13 authority over the students--you are a governing authority and are bearing the sword to curb lawlessness. Although they look superficially similar, I am not sure we should confuse the two. What you do in your job is a good thing, but it is not necessarily a kingdom thing.

Quote from: soul seeker on July 16, 2010, 11:00:35 AM

However, before I move on. I must acknowledge that we are interpreting Romans 14 different. I, like Schaef, believe that chapter is about Christian deferment and not judgment (as you will see in my future definitions).

I guess that is where the difference lies then. I totally accept that Romans 14 is about Christian deferment (and anyone who has read what I've posted elsewhere knows that I view this to cover a very extensive area). Entwined with that, however, are multiple repeated exhortation to not judge our brother.

Quote from: Romans 14:1,3-4, 10, 13

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

Given this, I find it difficult to understand why you think Romans 14 is not about judgment.

Since Paul is talking to Christians interacting with other Christians in each of these verses, I find Paul's words difficult to reconcile with the conclusion that

Quote from: Prof Underwood

The Bible actually says that we are NOT to judge those outside the church (that's God's job), but that we are supposed to judge those inside the church (that's accountability).

As an aside, Prof, you know we have had very similar discussions on multiple threads previously most of which dealt with other members of the board who were not related to me. You are free to attribute what I have posted on this thread as being solely or even primarily as an attempt to defend my son, but I do not feel that is correct.

Anyway, since I have quoted most everybody else involved in this thread over the past few posts, let me conclude with this...

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM

Maybe I am imagining problems where none exist. Maybe I am exaggerating things because my personal history causes me to fall very far to the grace side of Christianity.

It appears that one of those must be the case. I raised an issue that troubled me, and I have been informed by the mature members of the board that my concerns are unwarranted. I accept their correction and I apologize to anyone I have offended by what I have written on this topic.

soul seeker · « **Reply #32 on:** July 17, 2010, 10:35:53 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 09:08:34 PM

Anyway, since I have quoted most everybody else involved in this thread over the past few posts, let me conclude with this...
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 13, 2010, 10:43:29 PM
Maybe I am imagining problems where none exist. Maybe I am exaggerating things because my personal history causes me to fall very far to the grace side of Christianity.
It appears that one of those must be the case. I raised an issue that troubled me, and I have been informed by the mature members of the board that my concerns are unwarranted. I accept their correction and I apologize to anyone I have offended by what I have written on this topic.

I'm not sure how to take the above or how I feel about it. Hopefully, you are not still troubled and my guess is that you're seeking peace too. I agree that we shouldn't judge, and I strive not too. I think the disagreement is more of accountability and what it looks like (both in appearance to others and action amongst Christians.) With this, each Christian must choose their own path. I, for one, will try to limit it to close friends on disputable matters (because I still think some things shouldn't be done by ambassadors of Christ), and every Christian on sin. Above all, I try to make sure my attitude or correction is rooted in love otherwise I would be in the wrong (clanging cymbals and all).

FWIW: I had either forgotten or not realized that you have defended others on the board in similar areas, thanks for pointing that out. That helps make a few things clear to me as well.

JSB23 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 17, 2010, 04:39:00 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 16, 2010, 02:06:50 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 01:50:30 AM
Should the eater of meat choose to fall short of that standard, however, his brother has no basis to attempt to compel his obedience.
No one is compelling anyone here. YMT, myself, SS, Schaef, etc. have all encouraged JSB to do what you yourself say above is the best course of action. But no one is holding a gun to his head. No one is threatening to kick him off the forum, or even warn him. These people are simply trying to communicate to him that they think his choice in this matter should be different. That's not compelling, that's Christian accountability. Iron sharpens iron, my friend

Why have you decided that everyone should be "accountable" to you?

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** July 17, 2010, 07:13:55 PM »

Accountability is communal. I don't think it's particularly fair to presume that because he engages in it, that he presents himself as some kind of warden to whom all must report. I'm quite confident that if he were doing something wrong and you held him equally accountable, he would respond in kind.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 17, 2010, 07:39:13 PM »

The problem is that the accountability is being done over the internet. It defeats the purpose if the the person who is trying to hold another person accountable is someone that he has seen maybe or twice, max. Accountability is based on trust, you cannot expect JSB to trust Prof (no offense) if his only aquaintance with him is on the redemption board. Personally I don't think you need accountability in situations like this (also when people blow the situation out of proportion nobody is benefited) because accountability assumes that the person did something wrong, either way if he did or not pointing out somones faults like that is not the best way to go. Simply say "I would like it if you didn't use that word JSB." and leave it at that. If he disagrees than that is his choice, right or wrong. You don't have to throw the bible at the guy.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #36 on:** July 17, 2010, 07:45:35 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 07:39:13 PM

Simply say "I would like it if you didn't use that word JSB." and leave it at that. If he disagrees than that is his choice, right or wrong. You don't have to throw the bible at the guy.

So my apology wasn't good enough? I knew I should have included money with the Buckler.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 17, 2010, 08:00:23 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 17, 2010, 07:45:35 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 07:39:13 PM
Simply say "I would like it if you didn't use that word JSB." and leave it at that. If he disagrees than that is his choice, right or wrong. You don't have to throw the bible at the guy.

So my apology wasn't good enough? I knew I should have included money with the Buckler.

Man, I didn't mean it like that, your apology was fine. By apologizing you essentially retorted to the stament above, which was good. Either way your intentions were good, it is just that on the message boards it is easy to misconstrue intentions and is hard to successfully set up kingdom accountability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #38 on:** July 17, 2010, 08:15:18 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 08:00:23 PM

Either way your intentions were good, ...

Awww, shucks.

The Schaef · « **Reply #39 on:** July 17, 2010, 08:15:33 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 07:39:13 PM

Simply say "I would like it if you didn't use that word JSB." and leave it at that. If he disagrees than that is his choice, right or wrong. You don't have to throw the bible at the guy.

It's my understanding that is exactly what happened, in addition to which there was an attempt to resolve the matter privately first.

You apparently don't agree with this, but people build and foster relationships in the digital realm as well, and in this climate it seems to be more and more popular compared to face-to-face interaction. For better or worse, a lot of people build their social structures around Twitter and Facebook and Foursquare these days. I think there are some differences there to face-to-face and not all of those differences are for the better, but I don't think those relationships are to be so easily dismissed as trivial.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #40 on:** July 17, 2010, 10:06:42 PM »

What's foursquare?

The Schaef · « **Reply #41 on:** July 17, 2010, 11:02:27 PM »

You could just go to the website, but I'll give you this one for free.

The short version is that it's a place that uses geolocation to let you "check in" at various places you go. There are various things you can do with those locations and/or the locations your friends are visiting. In addition, they have an "achievement"-style system built in where you can earn badges and even become a virtual "mayor" of a town, among other things.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 17, 2010, 11:13:30 PM »

Do you play?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #43 on:** July 17, 2010, 11:42:32 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 16, 2010, 09:08:34 PM

As an aside, Prof, you know we have had very similar discussions on multiple threads previously most of which dealt with other members of the board who were not related to me. You are free to attribute what I have posted on this thread as being solely or even primarily as an attempt to defend my son, but I do not feel that is correct.

I also thank you for pointing that out. I too have forgotten those times. I'm actually not very good at remembering who I've had conflict with or what area that conflict was in. Generally speaking, I say my piece, discuss it if the other person responds, and then move on. This is particularly true if it is someone who I don't disagree with very often (such as yourself).

Quote from: The Schaef on July 17, 2010, 07:13:55 PM

I'm quite confident that if he were doing something wrong and you held him equally accountable, he would respond in kind.

This is 100% correct. I hope that all of you here on the boards care enough about me to let me know if I do something that seems to conflict with either the Bible, or my previously stated beliefs.

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 07:39:13 PM

Accountability is based on trust, you cannot expect JSB to trust Prof (no offense) if his only aquaintance with him is on the redemption board.

Actually, I think that people can build up a lot of trust here on the boards over enough time. For instance, there has been a guy (whom I had never met except on the forum) who entrusted me with some very personal information about a sin that he was struggling with in order for me to help hold him accountable in that area. God used that relationship to help him overcome that. Another example was when my wife and I were traveling to Fla to celebrate our 10yr anniversary (a couple years late) with a free cruise that God blessed us with. YMT (whom I had also never met except on the forum) welcomed us to stay in his home with his family including young children. For that matter other examples are all the people who host a tournament at their house and post where they live. Or all the people who make a trade online and send hundreds of dollars worth of cards through the mail hoping to get other cards back in return. Or all the people who play online with RTS and trust that their opponent really is getting their "bottom card" from their deck when they look at it. Or people who share deep burdens and pains in the prayer request part of the forum. These are all varying degrees of trust, but they are all built up purely based upon relationships here on the forum.

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** July 17, 2010, 11:43:18 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 17, 2010, 11:13:30 PM

Do you play?

I do not. I don't have a smart phone and I'm not particularly interested in broadcasting "I'm at work" "I'm at home" "I'm at work" "I'm at home" "I've gone to the store" "I'm home" "I'm at church" "I'm at home" all the time.

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Author Topic: My apology to JSB (Read 6710 times)

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