Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Lawfuldog on February 16, 2009, 11:12:02 AM
Title: Music Beliefs
Post by: Lawfuldog on February 16, 2009, 11:12:02 AM
This topic came up in my Theology class the other day, I figured it might start a lively discussion on the boards.
~The question was: Is it Christian-like to listen to music that doesn't mention God, but doesn't curse or talk about any immoral practices?~
We literally had almost equal sides arguing for each, so there were a fair amount of good points made for each.
Those who said no: The Bible says that music is for praising and glorifying God and nothing else. Most secular music has subtle hints at something sinful. Why would someone want to listen to secular music, when there is equally good Christian music.
Those who said yes: So you're saying it's wrong to listen to rock or jazz that has no lyrics? If we listen to Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and many others in Music Appreciation, are you saying that we are sinning? There are plenty of "Christian" bands that don't only make Christian music. (This sparked another discussion...)
What about Switchfoot, who is called a "Christian Band" and is in the Christian genre, but half of their songs have nothing to do with God? Several others such as Relient K, Lifehouse, etc..
I'd like to point out that I am all for listening to non-Christian music as long as it doesn't cures or talk about anything immoral (too much). I listen to anything and everything in every genre.
Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 16, 2009, 12:58:02 PM
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no i would have to say not, because it isnt worshiping GOD and so no it wouldnt call it sining but i wouldnt say it is christain like.
So if I listen to Beethoven, I am not being Christianlike?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: EmJayBee83 on February 16, 2009, 01:09:13 PM
Hey Lawfuldog, if you really want to spark discussion on this topic, you may want to check out the move Time Changer.
The movie's overall theme extends your question about music to the topic of morality at large.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: jtay on February 16, 2009, 01:48:27 PM
The Bible says that music is for praising and glorifying God and nothing else.
If you are making music, I agree, you should do it for God. Also, God, in all of his graciousness, has given us a huge variety of music to listen to. If you are giving thanks to God for the good music that you listen to, be it Christian or secular, He is glorified.
Most secular music has subtle hints at something sinful.
Anything you find in the world will either hint at or blatantly point to something sinful. This is a result of the fallen world which we live in. We should be concerned with how we live our lives in this world. If something you do causes or tempts you to sin, you shouldn't do it. If something can cause a brother/sister in Christ to stumble or can be misinterpreted by an unbeliever, then you should consider when you should and should not do it.
Why would someone want to listen to secular music, when there is equally good Christian music.
"Good" is a relative term. Just because there happens to be a few Christian death metal bands out there, doesn't mean that people who like death metal will find them any good.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: BubbleBoy on February 16, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
I think it's perfectly fine to listen to Mozart. Non-lyrical songs aren't evil, and it isn't un-Christian-like to listen to them.
It's as simple as this: if music will cause you to sin in any way, don't listen to it. There aren't any songs that absolutely no one should be allowed to listen to; some people aren't morally affected by heavy metal or whatever (although I don't know anyone who would want to listen to people screaming into a microphone if he wasn't). But if you are negatively affected by a song, don't listen to it.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: michael/michaelssword on February 16, 2009, 02:36:56 PM
I listen to Alot of Secular artists(read my Signature) and just make sure not to be negatively effectedIf Christian Artists could kick it up a notch(I only know of one band that really has and thats The Devil WearsPrada(screamo) that'd be great but there really aren't many good screamo/(whatever genre MCR and Billy Talent is) around
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 16, 2009, 03:22:12 PM
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The Bible says that music is for praising and glorifying God and nothing else.
Where? :-p David played music all the time, it wasn't always about God (When curing saul's evil spirit)
Quote
Most secular music has subtle hints at something sinful.
True, but if thats an arguement, living should be a sin because just going out the door (At my house) I can see a sign for a pub which is hinting at being drunk :-p
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Why would someone want to listen to secular music, when there is equally good Christian music.
Multiple reasons, There isn't equally good music that can compete with some older bands (imo) like queen secular or non nowadays. Because the secular music is better than the christian versions, because the secular band is unique (Trans siberian orchestra), etc.
I'm all for listening to secular music, Cursing bugs me a bit in it but 1 or 2 words a song is within tolerable limits. Suggestive songs don't bug me that much, maybe because anything can be made 'suggestive' but usually (not always) most of them don't bug me that much.
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It's as simple as this: if music will cause you to sin in any way, don't listen to it. There aren't any songs that absolutely no one should be allowed to listen to; some people aren't morally affected by heavy metal or whatever (although I don't know anyone who would want to listen to people screaming into a microphone if he wasn't). But if you are negatively affected by a song, don't listen to it.
You sir win this thread, I agree. I used to listen to a song called 'Bed' which made me sin quite a bit (Do NOT go looking for the song) so I cut it out, yet I can listen to all the heavy metals I want and not be motivated to sin.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 16, 2009, 04:05:20 PM
Quote from: Romans 14
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
On a side note, I am not aware of a Switchfoot that isn't related to Christian living, even if it's not directly about God. Gone, for example, is not a praise song, but it talks about how the things of this world are temporal and fleeting.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 16, 2009, 05:21:27 PM
Sir Paul McCartney should be sainted along with Bob Dylan.
I'm sure we can find way more than three miracles.
Anyways, I view music as an art. Should we only look at paintings of Christ? Should we only read literature about Christ? Should we only read poetry that talks about Christ?
Personally, I like tragedies in all forms of literature. I just find happy endings too cliche. Because of this, it is impossible for me to find any Christian anything that fits this idea. I also like abstract or chaotic paintings which obviously can't be said to reflect Christian values.
I think music is the same way. There are bad things in this world and people who go through a lot of hell. Music is a way of honouring those people. Music is a way for those people to express their soul. Don't get the impression I'm promoting emo music for us all to cry to, I'm just saying that something like Kanye West or Lil Wayne (although lyrically not kosher, using rap for an easy example) are a genuine expression of their heart on things. "Jesus Walks" is a good example of this. Take a song like "There She Goes", by The La's. It's a song about heroin, but it's a beautiful song; the way that Hamlet is a beautiful play (though it is about trying to send someone's soul to hell).
Or look to punk or folk, the fuel for movements that brought political change (for better or worse). Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" or The Clash's "White Riot" are part of our history; they're the voices of people who lived through very different times than us.
There are also a great many secular songs that can have spiritual meaning to people. For example, when I saw Bruce Springsteen, I literally heard from God during "Born to Run"; there was something very spiritual about that whole concert. The Beatles, although completely secular, are responsible for all that we know and love today. We should honour them just as we'd honour Leonardo Davinci, or any other great artist. The Rolling Stones' "Wild Horses" was co-written with Gram Parsons (a Christian). As my dad put it, Brian Jones, Mick Jagger, and Gram Parsons went to Mick's house, shot some heroin, and wrote country songs. Despite this, the work is still glorious; it's a beautiful song no matter what drugs those who wrote it were on.
I don't think we should scapegoat music. If we did, we should throw out non-Christian literature, plays, poems, and art.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on February 16, 2009, 06:02:41 PM
I agree with colin that Music is art. However, I also agree that there CAN be music that is definately bad for christians to listen to.
I'll listen to anything thats "in the grey" or better. By "In the Grey" I mean: music that says nothing BAD.
Why would someone want to listen to secular music, when there is equally good Christian music.
As much as I hate to say it, this argument is weak. With only a handful of exceptions, MOST christian music I hear is either a clone of another popular band with christian lyrics that we've already heard before. You have to really dig through music to find musicially outstanding Christian bands. :-\ I want to hear more christians try and create something NEW, rather than sit in this "safe zone" of music that is popular in mainstream radio. Of course, I guess being a Progressive Metal nut, nothing I listen to finds much radio play anyways... 10 minute or longer songs ftw. :D
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Lawfuldog on February 16, 2009, 06:30:56 PM
Just to throw this out there, I was pro listening to secular music, the points made on the other side were not mine.
Yes, they were easy to rebut. ;)
I agree that Colin put it very well in that Music is an art, and should be respected as an art.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on February 16, 2009, 06:32:40 PM
no i would have to say not, because it isnt worshiping GOD and so no it wouldnt call it sining but i wouldnt say it is christain like.
So if I listen to Beethoven, I am not being Christianlike?
if you listen to beethoven are you worshiping GOD? i said you wouldnt be sinning but you arent worshiping GOD.
No, but when you read shakespeare are you worshiping God?
Or even reading your math text book? Vocabulary book? Science book? The list is endless.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: lightningninja on February 17, 2009, 12:10:32 AM
No more than going to Disney Land is unchristian like. We do things to please God, and we do things to please ourselves. As long as the second doesn't interfere with the first, then you're good. :)
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: uthminister [BR] on February 17, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
A friend of mine named Paul once said, "All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial."
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 11:32:37 AM
no i would have to say not, because it isnt worshiping GOD and so no it wouldnt call it sining but i wouldnt say it is christain like.
So if I listen to Beethoven, I am not being Christianlike?
if you listen to beethoven are you worshiping GOD? i said you wouldnt be sinning but you arent worshiping GOD.
No, but when you read Shakespeare are you worshiping God?
i donr care about shake spear his plays are dumb ther is a shake sper festival here in nevada and all the plays are dumb
The plays a certainly not "dumb".
The multiplicity of plots, themes, and hidden meanings in Shakespeare are more intricate than probably any other work of literature; not to mention half of our English colloquialisms (which are often even confused with scripture) come from Shakespeare.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: snoopygy on February 17, 2009, 11:34:15 AM
Just check out those verses. These are pretty good Guidelines that I think answers a lot of your questions. Cause to be honest, the statement that most Christian music is just as good is pretty false. Unless by good you mean a carbon copy of everything. I.E Mercy Me.
I'm a fan of all music. God has given us all gifts, and I happen to like to enjoy music of others, Christian or not. If the attitude that you can only listen to 'christian music' (Which, btw, I have find plenty of christian music to biblical inaccurate.), then we might as well apply it to everything. But to do that would make us hypocritical, saying, "oh, come love Jesus! But stop being who you are, and change everything into Christianise". And God can speak through whatever he wants. He isn't something we can put into a box. He's God, lol.
So reflect on Phillippians 4:8. It's a great verse to look back on.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Cameron the Conqueror on February 17, 2009, 03:10:49 PM
well you should see the plays we have here ::) ther terible ther nothing i imagine a shakespear to be. it was a play about a love triangle and most everyone ther drank and drank. :-[ *puke* and i am sorry if i offended you.
Have you ACTUALLY seen a play up at Tahoe (https://www.laketahoeshakespeare.com/)? I doubt you have as they are incredible and definitely not horrible.
I sense a Shakespeare thread =D
Just read: Hamlet and Richard III
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: sk on February 17, 2009, 03:29:28 PM
well you should see the plays we have here ::) ther terible ther nothing i imagine a shakespear to be. it was a play about a love triangle and most everyone ther drank and drank. :-[ *puke* and i am sorry if i offended you.
With you being west coast, have you ever seen one done by the Shakespeare by the Sea team? By far, the best I've seen, which I think can be largely attributed to the fact everyone in the cast is volunteering for the team to get experience -- they really like what they're doing and really want to do a good production.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: uthminister [BR] on February 17, 2009, 03:34:42 PM
I repeat..."All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial."
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: soul seeker on February 17, 2009, 03:36:45 PM
http://bible.cc/philippians/4-8.htm (http://bible.cc/philippians/4-8.htm) I'm a fan of all music. God has given us all gifts, and I happen to like to enjoy music of others, Christian or not. If the attitude that you can only listen to 'christian music' (Which, btw, I have find plenty of christian music to biblical inaccurate.), then we might as well apply it to everything. But to do that would make us hypocritical, saying, "oh, come love Jesus! But stop being who you are, and change everything into Christianise". And God can speak through whatever he wants. He isn't something we can put into a box. He's God, lol.
So reflect on Phillippians 4:8. It's a great verse to look back on.
Your thread is actually quite confusing. I would put forth that Phil. 4:8 would support not listening to any secular music and only Christian music, but you use it (somehow) as the opposite. ??? In fact, Paul wrote that passage to address people's thought lives and how it would ultimately influence speech, actions, and beliefs. If you guys are listening and reflecting on songs/bands that do not glorifying God, then you guys are affecting that thought life which seeps out in different ways. I don't care what the popular opinion of this thread is: the movies, television, and music that you guys take in affect your view on life and God. It bothers/scares me that more and more people are worshiping a God of their own creation (the American God) rather than conforming their lives to the God of Creation and His Standards (as revealed in Scripture). Justify secular music all you guys want...it doesn't make it any more right. One more note: music in and of itself isn't bad...it's the words/message that is attached to that music that are wrong. The words/message is what I take issue with.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: TheMarti on February 17, 2009, 03:58:34 PM
I agree with soul seeker. Now, there are some secular songs with a positive message, but that takes a discerning ear. Because music GREATLY influences me (my most powerful times with God usually involve music), I don't run the risk of even trying secular stuff unless a friend suggests it to me and I ask what it's about.... I guess I've become more discerning with it. Unfortunately, a LOT of music out there now is about sex, violence, drugs, and beating/killing people... and none of that is edifying to anyone. Just like food, everything that goes in the body, comes out of it, and some of what comes out stinks pretty badly.
~Marti
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 04:45:50 PM
Isolationism is naivety. Naivety and isolationism and not benevolent to the betterment of oneself, neither as a Christian or a as person.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 05:07:03 PM
Big difference between Isolating oneself from worldly influences and insulating oneself from them. Choosing not to listen to secular music is a choice to insulate yourself from those influences. These types of influences have always around, so there is nothing new under the Son. Naivety would be to think you can live as close to the world as possible, partaking and indulging or simply chilling, yet believing you will be unaffected or influenced. Just my :2cents:
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: soul seeker on February 17, 2009, 05:11:09 PM
Big difference between Isolating oneself from worldly influences and insulating oneself from them. Choosing not to listen to secular music is a choice to insulate yourself from those influences. These types of influences have always around, so there is nothing new under the Son. Naivety would be to think you can live as close to the world as possible, partaking and indulging or simply chilling, yet believing you will be unaffected or influenced. Just my :2cents:
Godspeed, Mike
+1 I couldn't have said it better my self. I'm definitely not naive (working with teenagers) or isolationist. I do, however, need to insulate myself a little better than I do.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 05:28:20 PM
If I choose to go out in a snowstorm and choose to wear my parka, snow pants and boots, am I insulating myself from the storm or isolating myself from it? As I live in this world and choose not to listen to secular music and am mindful of what I allow to enter my mind and body, am I insulating myself from the world or isolating myself from it?
Just some food for thought.
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: New Raven BR on February 17, 2009, 05:54:55 PM
Your thread is actually quite confusing. I would put forth that Phil. 4:8 would support not listening to any secular music and only Christian music, but you use it (somehow) as the opposite. ??? In fact, Paul wrote that passage to address people's thought lives and how it would ultimately influence speech, actions, and beliefs. If you guys are listening and reflecting on songs/bands that do not glorifying God, then you guys are affecting that thought life which seeps out in different ways. I don't care what the popular opinion of this thread is: the movies, television, and music that you guys take in affect your view on life and God. It bothers/scares me that more and more people are worshiping a God of their own creation (the American God) rather than conforming their lives to the God of Creation and His Standards (as revealed in Scripture). Justify secular music all you guys want...it doesn't make it any more right. One more note: music in and of itself isn't bad...it's the words/message that is attached to that music that are wrong. The words/message is what I take issue with.
Analyze the scriptures my friend! Don't just look at one part, but the whole thing, because it means so much more. I'll help explain my post, where you can be less confused.
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
The first half of this verse is how we should weigh anything. There are plenty of secular music out there that follows these guidelines. If you have listened to Coldplay, or OneRepublic, then you will know these groups are prime examples of following this verse without actually being a 'Christian Band'. Secondly, where the verse starts saying if. If implies, to me, that it is something to be weighed and measured with thought. So if the music you are listening to is full of excellence, and worthy of praise, dwell on these things. (I'm paraphrasing here). I'm not making a case that all music is safe to listen to. I'm making a case that we must put thought into what we listen to. I.E. The Classic Crime is one of my favorite bands. They are not a Christian band. But they are christians. Here is part of their interview, and it's pretty much amazing. It's a lot of what Jesus has called us to be.
" # JFH (John): It's kind of a loaded question, but do you think there is a need and a purpose for Christian music?
Matt: You know, I have yet to define what Christian music is. I know what worship and praise music is, music directed towards God, but I don't know if you can mix a belief or a system of beliefs with your music, because I mean, obviously if you're a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew and you're very serious about your faith, it's going to come out in your music. But I don't think there's Jewish rock or Muslim rock or, you know?
# JFH (John): At least not yet!
Matt: Not yet! *laughter* But I don't know that they would sell out that much to make it, so I think faith is a personal thing. I have nothing against bands that are Christian bands or claim to be Christian bands because I think what they're doing is following conviction and that's honorable. It's honorable to be committed to do something about it but for us, personally, we don't really understand it. So we kind of steer clear. I'm a Christian so the music I write is about real struggles with real people and real situations that have happened in my life and there's obviously sort of a Christian outlook. There's hope. There's something that goes beyond just the human struggle. But I wouldn't call our music "Christian music," I think it's "human" music. *laughter* For humans! So…
# JFH (John): Which is everybody.
Matt: Everybody! There ya go! http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/interviews/TheClassicCrime2008.asp (http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/interviews/TheClassicCrime2008.asp)
And I agree that music we take in can affect us. However, affecting us could mean for good, or for evil. I have found beautiful Spiritual parallels in secular movies (most Christian movies suck). Look at Chronicles of Narnia dude. It's not a Christian series. It's main stream (secular). You can argue otherwise, but was written for the public.
Make more sense?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: snoopygy on February 17, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
I'm not isolationist. Secular music just stinks. Why would I listen to something I can't stand?
I find your statement to be false. Your making a statement, that many would disagree with. May I once again point to Coldplay as an example of God given talent. It may stink to you, and that's fine. But it does not stink.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 06:52:44 PM
It seems to me, that straddling the fence ends up with pain in the nether region. It is a shame to see people downplay their christianity and go with the *shrug* it's not a big deal attitude. We are instructed to go unto the world and unashamedly proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Seems quite simple and clear, but people like to muddy the waters.
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: TheMarti on February 17, 2009, 07:07:01 PM
I'm actually kind of insulted by your comment that I may be naive. And isolationism is not the answer, ever. In the world, not of it.
Anyway, saying that, I feel the need to protect my heart and mind from the influences. That is not to say that I don't know anything about it. I know what the favorite songs are of my students, heck, I may even know some of the words. I can recognize the tune if it comes on the radio. But that doesn't mean I listen to it regularly. I am knowledged about it because of relate-ablilty, not to listen for pleasure... its kinda like learning about evolution to educate yourself so you are able to "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."- 1 Peter 3:15. We cannot share the Gospel if we can not relate to others in relationship. It gives a conversation starter, or at least you can say "Yeah, I've heard it" when someone asks about a song. Make sense?
~Marti
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 17, 2009, 07:11:43 PM
Share the Gospel wherever you go, and if necessary use words- Francis of Assisi
I think that's relevant to Godspeed's post. We don't need to say "Jesus Christ is King" constantly to be a christian witness. That's not what being a christian is.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 07:33:28 PM
Share the Gospel wherever you go, and if necessary use words- Francis of Assisi
I think that's relevant to Godspeed's post. We don't need to say "Jesus Christ is King" constantly to be a christian witness. That's not what being a christian is.
When someone can look at your life and see Jesus, then your life is Proclaiming the Gospel with and without words. Being a christian is being Christ-like.
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: snoopygy on February 17, 2009, 08:28:47 PM
That's what the Classic Crime is saying. If you read the rest of their interview, they talk about enjoying playing in the bars. Because they are reaching a lost people with a message of hope. Frankly, Jesus came for the sick, not the healthy. But the healthy continually want to help the healthy, and forget about the sick.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 17, 2009, 08:34:48 PM
I agree with a majority of that statement there snoopy.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:18:40 PM
I'm not isolationist. Secular music just stinks. Why would I listen to something I can't stand?
Secular music stinks? Christian music is bland copies of copies of copies of secular music, devoid of innovation or exploration. The reason is because if a band can make it on a secular label, they wouldn't be on a Christian label. (There are some exceptions to this). First example: Deas Veil. Complete carbon copy of Mew. Demon Hunter: carbon copy of all death metal bands. Christian rap: don't even need to start. MxPx, Relient K, etc.: carbon copy of all pop-punk. John Foreman: Trying to jump onto the folk/indie bandwagon.
It is a very arrogant statement to say something like this. Secular music "is" music, its not an attempt to make a Christian alternative to already existing music. As a music critic and the son of a music journalist/critic (and a Nashville resident), I listen to a large amount of music. In that, with the exception of Sixpence None the Richer, I have never heard an innovative Christian band, or one that I could even label as "talented". One the contrary, there is a vast amount of Christians in the secular music world who are incredibly talented. Bob Dylan, Bono, the Edge, Gram Parsons, Kings of Leon, Jack White, Eric Clapton, and many others. Heck, the former lead guitarist for Prince, Dez Dickerson, leads a Bible study at my house. Show me a Christian song with comparable lyrics to a Bob Dylan song. Show me a Christian band's guitarist comparable to Jack White. Show me a Christian band that has had any meaningful effect on the progression of music.
As a musician, isolating myself from secular music would have left me a horrible guitarist, pianist, and singer; how can you appreciate music when you ignore all of its roots?
Isolate yourself from the "bad influences of secular music" all you want. While you do that, I'll be isolating myself from the horrible influences of Christian music. If your temperance is so shaky that you can't listen to Sargent Pepper's Loney Heart's Club without being influenced to sin, you probably shouldn't be a Christian. Rather, go live in a cave and try to reach Nirvana, and good luck with that.
I've heard that musicians in Nirvana shoot themselves and drummers just end up singing for the Foo Fighters.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: michael/michaelssword on February 17, 2009, 09:23:28 PM
show me a drummer even a inch close to Mike Portnoy or Neil Peart
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:24:03 PM
It is a very arrogant statement to say something like this.
LOL at me being the arrogant one.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 17, 2009, 09:44:32 PM
Quote
(There are some exceptions to this)
Leeland
Quote
First example: Deas Veil. Complete carbon copy of Mew. Demon Hunter: carbon copy of all death metal bands. Christian rap: don't even need to start. MxPx, Relient K, etc.: carbon copy of all pop-punk. John Foreman: Trying to jump onto the folk/indie bandwagon.
You don't expect everyone to invent completely new genres do you? This is America, if something works it is going to be copied. That's just how it is. You make it sound like the artists you list have no talent when they actually do.
I think people make too much of a hulabaloo out of the "secular music is just about drugs and rape" argument. There are a plethora of musicians that put out music that have nothing to do with illegal or promiscuous activities. Just because it isn't "Christian" doesn't mean it is of the devil.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:47:20 PM
His demos were pretty good but I haven't heard what his album sounds like. He's a pretty nice kid, though, I had dinner with him and the Smiths a few years ago before he was signed. On that subject, Michael W. Smith is another exception.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 09:50:05 PM
I'm not isolationist. Secular music just stinks. Why would I listen to something I can't stand?
Secular music stinks? Christian music is bland copies of copies of copies of secular music, devoid of innovation or exploration. The reason is because if a band can make it on a secular label, they wouldn't be on a Christian label. (There are some exceptions to this). First example: Deas Veil. Complete carbon copy of Mew. Demon Hunter: carbon copy of all death metal bands. Christian rap: don't even need to start. MxPx, Relient K, etc.: carbon copy of all pop-punk. John Foreman: Trying to jump onto the folk/indie bandwagon.
notice Switchfoot is popular among people besides Christians.
they may be copies, but they're still awesome to listen to. +1 what Sean said about new genres. they aren't going to make something new, but they can compete with the best of secular (IMO...) if you strip away the fame, and take it for just the enjoyablility of the music, Christian competes. difficulty, sure, but there are a few awesome people out there. look at Lincoln Brewster! former lead guitarist of Journey? he's gotta be good, and he's great to listen to, and he's Christian.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:53:09 PM
I'm a music critic, I'm not being arrogant; I can justify all of my claims.
Aside from your stubborn refusal to accept percussionists as musicians.
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I'm calling making uneducated claims in regards to music theory, composition, and origins arrogant.
Actually, this sort of lays your attitude bare. YMT was expressing his assessment of the quality of the music he hears. I don't recall him saying anything regarding theory or composition. To assume that your standards are the standards of others... he's right to chuckle at your accusation.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 09:56:01 PM
I'm not isolationist. Secular music just stinks. Why would I listen to something I can't stand?
Secular music stinks? Christian music is bland copies of copies of copies of secular music, devoid of innovation or exploration. The reason is because if a band can make it on a secular label, they wouldn't be on a Christian label. (There are some exceptions to this). First example: Deas Veil. Complete carbon copy of Mew. Demon Hunter: carbon copy of all death metal bands. Christian rap: don't even need to start. MxPx, Relient K, etc.: carbon copy of all pop-punk. John Foreman: Trying to jump onto the folk/indie bandwagon.
notice Switchfoot is popular among people besides Christians.
they may be copies, but they're still awesome to listen to. +1 what Sean said about new genres. they aren't going to make something new, but they can compete with the best of secular (IMO...) if you strip away the fame, and take it for just the enjoyablility of the music, Christian competes. difficulty, sure, but there are a few awesome people out there. look at Lincoln Brewster! former lead guitarist of Journey? he's gotta be good, and he's great to listen to, and he's Christian.
As a music critic (who hates most popular secular music), I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 10:00:33 PM
I'm a music critic, I'm not being arrogant; I can justify all of my claims.
Aside from your stubborn refusal to accept percussionists as musicians.
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I'm calling making uneducated claims in regards to music theory, composition, and origins arrogant.
Actually, this sort of lays your attitude bare. YMT was expressing his assessment of the quality of the music he hears. I don't recall him saying anything regarding theory or composition. To assume that your standards are the standards of others... he's right to chuckle at your accusation.
Naturally, standards are based on perspective. As someone who goes to about fifty concerts in Nashville a year (all of bands I'm sure the majority of America doesn't know) as well as being a second generation "musicologist", I think that I would have higher standards for music.
For example, I don't think Coldplay is the best band on the face of the earth (although Viva La Vida is a great album but still totally deserved to be defeated by Plant and Krauss).
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 10:04:56 PM
Secular music stinks? Christian music is bland copies of copies of copies of secular music, devoid of innovation or exploration. The reason is because if a band can make it on a secular label, they wouldn't be on a Christian label. (There are some exceptions to this). First example: Deas Veil. Complete carbon copy of Mew. Demon Hunter: carbon copy of all death metal bands. Christian rap: don't even need to start. MxPx, Relient K, etc.: carbon copy of all pop-punk. John Foreman: Trying to jump onto the folk/indie bandwagon.
So what I getting from your subjective opinion is, if you are a christian, a talented musician and want to make music or an album "Don't Do It" because it will only be a bland copy of copy of copy of secular music? :scratch:
It is a very arrogant statement to say something like this. Secular music "is" music, its not an attempt to make a Christian alternative to already existing music. As a music critic and the son of a music journalist/critic (and a Nashville resident), I listen to a large amount of music. In that, with the exception of Sixpence None the Richer, I have never heard an innovative Christian band, or one that I could even label as "talented". One the contrary, there is a vast amount of Christians in the secular music world who are incredibly talented. Bob Dylan, Bono, the Edge, Gram Parsons, Kings of Leon, Jack White, Eric Clapton, and many others. Heck, the former lead guitarist for Prince, Dez Dickerson, leads a Bible study at my house. Show me a Christian song with comparable lyrics to a Bob Dylan song. Show me a Christian band's guitarist comparable to Jack White. Show me a Christian band that has had any meaningful effect on the progression of music.
As a musician, isolating myself from secular music would have left me a horrible guitarist, pianist, and singer; how can you appreciate music when you ignore all of its roots?
Once again, this is all your subjective opinion. I have my doubts about some of the "christians" in the secular music world that you have listed, but that is just my opinion.
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 10:12:12 PM
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So what I getting from your subjective opinion is, if you are a christian, a talented musician and want to make music or an album "Don't Do It" because it will only be a bland copy of copy of copy of secular music? Scratch
No, if you are a Christian and a good musician, you will eventually get picked up by a secular label.
Here's some "secular" lyrics for you:
May God bless and keep you always May your wishes all come true May you always do for others And let others do for you May you build a ladder to the stars And climb on every rung May you stay forever young Forever young, forever young May you stay forever young.
May you grow up to be righteous May you grow up to be true May you always know the truth And see the lights surrounding you May you always be courageous Stand upright and be strong May you stay forever young Forever young, forever young May you stay forever young.
May your hands always be busy May your feet always be swift May you have a strong foundation When the winds of changes shift May your heart always be joyful And may your song always be sung May you stay forever young Forever young, forever young May you stay forever young.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: 777Godspeed on February 17, 2009, 10:16:30 PM
The band doesn't have a choice in this? Get picked up by a secular label "cause you are good enough" or be wasted talent on a christian label?
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 10:17:57 PM
The band doesn't have a choice in this? Get picked up by a secular label "cause you are good enough" or be wasted talent on a christian label?
Godspeed, Mike
Well, I mean, wouldn't you rather make money and "reach more people" by being on a secular label?
It's like staying in the minor league instead of going into the Major leagues.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 17, 2009, 10:23:42 PM
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I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White
They don't have to be better than these people in order to be considered good or talented. Who is better, Roger Marris or Mickey Mantle? There is no definitive answer, but they were both incredible players.
Concerning Leeland, I highly recommend both albums. High quality on both.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 10:26:26 PM
I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White
They don't have to be better than these people in order to be considered good or talented. Who is better, Roger Marris or Mickey Mantle? There is no definitive answer, but they were both incredible players.
I'm not speaking on technical terms but on terms of uniqueness, punctuality, and innovation.
Face it, a stick figure will never be a Piccaso or a Rembrant; but you can't really compare Piccaso to Rempbrant or vice versa.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Prof Underwood on February 17, 2009, 10:26:49 PM
Well, I mean, wouldn't you rather make money and "reach more people" by being on a secular label?
It's like staying in the minor league instead of going into the Major leagues.
Not at the cost of compromise. If I'm to stay in the Minor League, so be it. If I'm to go to the Major League, it will happen. When it comes to music, I have my opinioin of music, contrary to the "music critics". You have your opinion of music, contrary to "music critics". Being a "music critic" doesn't endow you with rights, only an opinion. Not being a "music critic" doesn't lessen my opinion or anyone elses. I have made choices based on what is best for me and my house in alignment with scripture, as I know it. Others have made choices on what is best for them. Arguing which is better music is subjective to the individuals opinion and taste. The burden of proof in this is not shouldered by anyone. What we are all to do, is make the decision that is best for our spiritual well being and ultimately to honor our God.
Godspeed, Mike
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 17, 2009, 10:47:20 PM
Well, I mean, wouldn't you rather make money and "reach more people" by being on a secular label?
It's like staying in the minor league instead of going into the Major leagues.
Not at the cost of compromise. If I'm to stay in the Minor League, so be it. If I'm to go to the Major League, it will happen. When it comes to music, I have my opinioin of music, contrary to the "music critics". You have your opinion of music, contrary to "music critics". Being a "music critic" doesn't endow you with rights, only an opinion. Not being a "music critic" doesn't lessen my opinion or anyone elses. I have made choices based on what is best for me and my house in alignment with scripture, as I know it. Others have made choices on what is best for them. Arguing which is better music is subjective to the individuals opinion and taste. The burden of proof in this is not shouldered by anyone. What we are all to do, is make the decision that is best for our spiritual well being and ultimately to honor our God.
Godspeed, Mike
Well, secular labels don't make bands comprimise their values in the least.
Just a band by their talent, not by whether their views line up with yours.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Tsavong Lah on February 18, 2009, 01:03:54 AM
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It is a very arrogant statement to say something like this.
Irony++! ;)
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: PresidentOrangeBus on February 18, 2009, 01:25:46 AM
As far as good guitarist. Jimi Hendrix, John Fruciante are couple of my favorites.
Bassist- Les Claypool and Flea. Are probably the two best. The guy from tool is really good too though.
Totally off topic of what you're all arguing about. but I don't care much lol.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 18, 2009, 06:50:24 AM
As someone who goes to about fifty concerts in Nashville a year (all of bands I'm sure the majority of America doesn't know) as well as being a second generation "musicologist", I think that I would have higher standards for music.
Different does not necessarily mean higher. In your case that may happen to be accurate, but the point is that YMT's standards are different, not that they are less or more.
As a music critic (who hates most popular secular music), I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White.
If you hate most secular music and you apparently will only accept other people's tastes if they can surpass some of the most talented individuals in the industry, I see no reason to be so critical of YMT for hating most of the same stuff that you hate.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 10:54:06 AM
Very well then, I will respect his taste.
I apologise for my typical bi-polarness that comes out on the internet.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: snoopygy on February 18, 2009, 02:01:01 PM
I agree that coldplay isn't the best band on the earth, but they are a great band. I will judge them more, as I continue to listen to more of their older music.
I do believe this topic has completely gotten off course from it's original posting though.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 02:07:51 PM
I agree that coldplay isn't the best band on the earth, but they are a great band. I will judge them more, as I continue to listen to more of their older music.
I do believe this topic has completely gotten off course from it's original posting though.
Yeah, Viva La Vida is a great album but it has a lot of dry spots; that's why I'm glad Robert Plant and Alison Krauss got album of the year.
And yes, there is a difference between critique and taste (obviously). For example, one can critique Twilight or the Harry Potter series (and in that sense judge them as bad literature) but the millions who read them don't care about whether or not it is good literature; they enjoy the content for itself. On the contrary, one may love to watch Eragon; however, Lord of the Rings will always be far better literature than Eragon. In this sense, one can enjoy Deas Viel; however, Mew (the band they sound exactly like) is better on terms of innovation, vocals, and composition. Now, if Deas Viel had taken the ideas of Mew and progressed it (by adding other elements) they could be placed on a tier of criticism subject to taste alone. This is why (as incredibly annoying as I find them) I can give some respect to Panic at the Disco (as they are very innovative compared to other bands in their genre). I cannot give that same respect to a band like The All American Rejects who sound no different than every other pop punk band, nor can they write good songs.
Another point of criticism I will add to both Christian popular music and Secular popular music is the use of pitch correction on vocals (which is INCREDIBLY annoying if you know how to recognise it). If you can't sing, don't sing. If you watched the Jonas Brothers at the Grammys you could hear that when the singer's voice would go out of key, there was a little sound like a wah-wah pedal. Katie Perry over uses this too. (I personally think it fits well when used for effect in bands like Daft Punk or by someone like Kanye West).
In general, Christian pop music is formulaic. You play G, C, and D (and Bm if it's a sad song). If your vocal range doesn't fit, move the capo. Move the capo if you want to vary your set, too. The vocalists usually don't take many risks, staying around the same key. Electric guitar is either light fill or blaring distorted powerchords with string bends (i.e. Meant to Live). Most likely will be a SG or an LP, a stratocaster or telecaster if it's a Christian punk band. There's usually a slow bridge (with guitar fill and acoustic picking or piano), but no real change in key for the singer. After that, you go back to the chorus, maybe try to hit a few high notes vocally, and then end on the G. Drums are four-fourths (and symbol fills during the bridge). Piano and synths are light and usually not detectable. Bass clones the guitar, but in single notes. Lyrically, it is usually without conflict. All about how "perfect" the world is or how people are only sad because they don't have God. Christian punk just tries to "sell" Christianity by making it rebellious (but being careful not to offend parents with any kind of anarchy, swearing, or unkosher topics). Christian straight-edge punk bands are (rather than being "angry" about people who have sex or do drugs, alcohol, or tobacco) are tied down with political correctness and trying to "watch their words" to not offend the society they're trying to change. Christian punk bands follow a Ramones formula (and the Ramones songwriting formula isn't exactly genius) while the straight-edge bands follow a Minor Threat formula. I will say that Christian metal is incredibly innovative. Underoath has definitely been innovative (putting influences like Sigur Ros and Radiohead into their music). There are definitely bands that are trying to be on the "Christian metal bandwagon", but it seems like the secular world is merging with the Christian world rather than the opposite. Bands like He is Legend and Gym Class Heroes often tour with Christian metal bands.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 18, 2009, 03:10:21 PM
That's a very dangerous generalization to make about Christian music. There's nothing more or less formulaic about their arrangements than most secular bands, about whom I can make a LOT of the same criticisms, and I can think of a lot of Christian bands and even worship songs that stray FAR from this formula. An analysis of Michael W. Smith's music, for example, shows a strong classical influence and a lot of progressive arrangements, odd times, altered phrase lengths, etc. Musically, I consider him far superior to about 90% of the performing artists he spend the first ten years of his career working to get airplay with. And you decry the overuse of standard progressions but you named Bob Dylan, who probably made more of a career out of finding variations of ii-V-I than any artist of his generation.
And speaking of which, Michael W. Smith was remarkably talented long before he enjoyed mainstream success. Switchfoot was talented before Meant to Live, a song you criticized here as exemplifying bad Christian rock, became a top 5 hit on secular radio stations on the release of their secular radio album. Skillet was already talented. Sixpence was already talented. dc Talk... the list goes on. The Clapton/Babyface song was actually penned by a bunch of studio musicians and writers from Christian labels (Tommy Sims, Gordon Kennedy, Wayne Kirkpatrick). And artists that many people will never hear of - Chris Rice, Eli, Send the Beggar. They didn't languish in pop mediocrity for years and then suddenly become awesome. Talent first has to be heard and then has to be sold, and 90% of the awesome bands, secular or Christian, will never be heard because the labels will continue to flood their labels with rehashed drivel. The short version of this is that your logic that "if they were any good a secular label would have signed them" leaves much to be desired. How much of a secret is it that labels sell what they think will make them money and not what is actually good? And why should it then be a surprise that music downloading and independent distribution streams are taking hold while they continue to ride their dinosaurs?
I have been as strong an advocate as anybody that "Christian music" needs to get out of the ten-years-ago and start focusing on quality music. Production quality doesn't really help in that department, Sony and Warner and so forth have far more resources available. But in the current secular market, sex sells. Violence sells. Despair sells. Quality is secondary, and often a happy coincidence at best. In the Christian market, Jesus sells, often to the exclusion of all other things. Those market forces are tough to combat but I think a lot of artists are getting a bad shake based on what the market forces upon consumers. Not everyone out there is Point of Grace, and a lot of what pushes the Christian market in the Point of Grace direction is not POD's fault.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 07:59:26 PM
Haha, Point of Grace played my school's chapel...
Yeah, I agree that Michael W. Smith is a legend. He's done more for music than people give him credit. For example, Leeland was discovered and coached by Michael W. Smith. Also, Jordan Sparks was discovered by Michael W. Smith who put her on her way to becoming an American Idol.
I just make fun of Meant to Live because when it became a hit, that riff was embedded into all of our skulls.
I think Christian artists should just become indie artists, personally. In the vast world of independent rock, bands become popular by word of mouth and musical skill alone instead of being popular because Disney, MTV (or whatever) told us they were popular. Bands like Sigur Ros, the Killers, and Kings of Leon got big because indie kids, music critics, and Nashville in general loved their music; making them popular.
The Used, on the other hand, existed with a tiny fanbase in the underground for years, not even really selling records, until Reprise picked them up and decided to turn them into a marketable band. They still aren't very good musicians.
Then look at bands like Green Day and My Chemical Romance. They were both very popular in the indie music scene but then were marketed into something completely different than they originally were by their record labels.
Green Day weren't the offensive jerks their record company wanted them to be earlier on (this was changed because offense sells; they wanted another Sex Pistols).
MCR was known for being an intense punk band and their shows were comparable to early punk shows in the violent energy and running around smashing things on stage. Also, for their genre, they were very decent songwriters. Reprise tried to make them into Queen and they pretty much lost the synergy they had as a punk band. Now they are jumping from genre to genre, losing pretty much all distinction (watching their latest video shows that MTV is going back to trying to cash in on the early punk ideal and failing miserably.)
Even the Beatles (who were known for their energetic and violent shows in Germany) were turned into pretty boys by Ed Sullivan. Thankfully, they got out of that in the end.
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hort version of this is that your logic that "if they were any good a secular label would have signed them" leaves much to be desired. How much of a secret is it that labels sell what they think will make them money and not what is actually good? And why should it then be a surprise that music downloading and independent distribution streams are taking hold while they continue to ride their dinosaurs?
Very true. I probably should take that back and rephrase that. Good Christian bands will be picked up by the indie crowd and thus will make their way into the secular market. Switchfoot and Relient K both did this. Underoath and others did this. Sixpence None the Richer pretty much went right to the indie crowd.
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And you decry the overuse of standard progressions but you named Bob Dylan, who probably made more of a career out of finding variations of ii-V-I than any artist of his generation.
Bob Dylan's more of a lyricist and a songwriter than a composer and also, he was the first to probably do that. And let's be honest, no matter how simple a song, Bob Dylan made it cool. If the lyrics of Christian pop were up to par with Dylan, they could get away with simplicity. Art can be simple. Copying simple art is kind of lame.
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I have been as strong an advocate as anybody that "Christian music" needs to get out of the ten-years-ago and start focusing on quality music.
This made me think of something. Do you think bands like Radiohead, Sonic Youth, or U2 would have had the same impact on the progression of rock and roll that they each did if they were under the Christian label? I mean, think about it. Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 18, 2009, 08:27:42 PM
I apologise for my typical bi-polarness that comes out on the internet.
Apology freely accepted. You are correct that our perspectives are completely different. I don't really listen to any music. I don't listen to the radio intentionally, and I have not listened to any CDs in years. My purpose for avoiding music is based on an acknowledgement of its power.
I'm sure we all agree that the lyrics can be influential, but I would argue that even the composition can be. I speak only from my own experience as a sinner saved by Grace. I was heavily into music as a youngster, particularly KISS, Blue Oyster Cult, and Aldo Nova. I don't have a very good memory of my childhood due to a traumatic family life, but I remember all the guitar solos in the songs from those groups. The guitar memories then remind me of the lyrics, which then remind me of the things I used to do while listening to those songs. My memory is tied to the songs permanently. Frankly, those are memories that I wish I didn't have, but the music has locked them there.
Likewise, after becoming a Christian in my 20s, I started listening to Christian Rock. Groups like Petra, DC Talk, Mastedon, and Halo became my new favorites and their songs quickly etched memories. Those memories were good memories, though.
As time progressed, the only music I wanted to listen to were the CDs from the groups I listened to at the time of my conversion. I still had problems getting the older songs out of my head, especially if I heard them playing in some store or in a commercial. Eventually I just wanted it all to stop.
The only music I really want in my head nowadays is the praise music from church. The words are plain and clear and any memories are from being in church. Those are the only thoughts I want popping up when the music starts.
I hope that clears up my earlier vague comment. I guess it is more accurate to say that my memories of secular music stink.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Prof Underwood on February 18, 2009, 08:29:13 PM
Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.
OK, so just to get this straight. Christian music can't compare to the best secular music except for all of the above people. First of all I disagree that we have exhausted the list of exceptions (exhibit A = Larry Norman who was incredibly innovative and as good a lyricist as Bob Dylan). And second of all, when you are comparing to the best of anything, you will naturally get a small group. You couldn't make a long list of secular guitar players better than Phil Keaggy. You couldn't make a long list of people better at T1-2p than Gabe Isbel. That doesn't mean everyone else stinks.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 08:32:52 PM
Well, I think this has kind of turned into good music v.s. corporate music.
I mean, the corporate Christian music and the Corporate hollywood music is equally bad.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 18, 2009, 09:49:02 PM
This made me think of something. Do you think bands like Radiohead, Sonic Youth, or U2 would have had the same impact on the progression of rock and roll that they each did if they were under the Christian label? I mean, think about it. Someone with that kind of innovation and musical impact haven't really ever existed in its genre besides Phil Keaggy, MW Smith, Underoath, and arguably DC Talk.
No, they wouldn't, but again you're using the exception to write the rule. I think we all agree that the music industry is replete with retreads at all levels. The reason the Christian sub-genre is the way it is, can be attributed to the tastes of the consumer who has spent more dollars on retreads that have more wholesome lyrics at the cost of less musical innovation. If more secular artists realized that, they would move more records. You need artists to push the envelope, but in the end, G movies put more butts in seats because more people can go see them, that's why The Lion King outsold Braveheart. Will Smith has sold 80 billion records without dipping into extremely coarse lyrics. Direct-to-video sequels may be crap, but the fact is, Land Before Time 37 sells. So you can have quality, you can have integrity, and you can have exposure, but it's the rare bird that doesn't sacrifice one or two of these to accomplish the rest. Walt Disney massively innovated the movie industry in the process of delivering a family experience, but the sad thing is that he was the outside thinker and not the standard-bearer when it comes to achieving all three.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 10:01:40 PM
So in this, is I guess I believe that I believe that music should be written as an expression of the artist's soul, not as a means to "sell" the people what they want. Therefore, "Christian" music is excluded; that is, that music which is created to be a means of "selling" a Christian message. Christian music that is a manifestation of a Christian artist's soul isn't "Christian" music, it's "good" music.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: lightningninja on February 18, 2009, 10:18:38 PM
As a music critic (who hates most popular secular music), I challenge you to find a Christian artist besides Liegh Nash that can sing better or equal to Leslie Feist, write lyrics better than Bob Dylan, or play guitar better than Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, or Jack White.
Carrie Underwood - Jesus take the wheel. She has been top female vocalist for three years in a row. And that's a Christian song, I'm not sure if she's a Christian. And she puts your guys to shame.
Writing lyrics... I LOVE Anberlin's lyrics. They are Christian.
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
But I'd still like my questions answered(I didn't originally say this as a question): How is listening to non-Christian music(that still teaches good things, or at least not bad things) any worse than going to Disney Land?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Warrior_Monk on February 18, 2009, 11:15:55 PM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 18, 2009, 11:17:53 PM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass. I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 19, 2009, 07:14:09 AM
Carrie Underwood - Jesus take the wheel. She has been top female vocalist for three years in a row. And that's a Christian song, I'm not sure if she's a Christian. And she puts your guys to shame.
That's a good point that I was going to make and lost it in my ramblings. One big reason that country music is quietly a huge portion of the industry is because God for most of them is as American as mom and apple pie. They're not singing about God to proselytize, but just because He's a part of their life just like their beer and their pick-em-up truck.
Yes, I'm stereotyping. Point is, quality plus integrity plus exposure to form the best possible artist in the current industry. Some might argue that most country artists are not huge in any or all of these three areas, especially quality, but the fact that their quality and exposure are both higher than what's normally seen in the Christian subset explains their much broader success.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Warrior_Monk on February 19, 2009, 09:28:46 AM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass. I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.
those were just his 2 best instruments. he's also rather good at trumpet, drums and bass. and yes, he's played acoustic and electric.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 19, 2009, 11:02:49 AM
Playing guitar... I can't say, I don't play... so I'm not sure. I'll let someone else take this.
BRET. CANNY. never heard of him? wondering what band he's in? he's not. he lives about a block away from me. started learning Van Halen within the first couple weeks of playing. he's now been playing a year, and can listen to a song, and play it. he's 7th grade. he's a prodigy. a very good one. he's also incredible at piano. played Solfeggioro in 4th grade... PERFECT. mark my words, he will be amazing, and he pretty much hates all music that isn't Christian rock... or Disturbed.
Oh yeah? My cousin is ten and can play the Saxaphone, the piano, the drums, the guitar (acoustic and electic), and the bass. I taught him how to solo at Christmas; I wish I had learned that at his age.
those were just his 2 best instruments. he's also rather good at trumpet, drums and bass. and yes, he's played acoustic and electric.
Did I mention that I played Tiny Dancer on the piano and he played along on the Saxophone, both in key and creatively, the day that he got it?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Warrior_Monk on February 19, 2009, 01:30:29 PM
Did I mention that I played Tiny Dancer on the piano and he played along on the Saxophone, both in key and creatively, the day that he got it?
the day he got the saxophone? had he played the sax before? or just worked hard to learn fingering in one day?
Well, I mean, I could pick it up and figure out the scales too; it's not that hard. Neither of us are Bobby Keys, but we can make it make music.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: TimMierz on February 19, 2009, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: Ricky
Oh yeah? Well the thing with me is that on the morning of the test I was reaching for the orange juice and accidentally grabbed laundry detergent and I had to get my stomach pumped. After a good while of that I ripped the IV out of my arm, told the nurse I had an SAT to take, and did what I had to do. Talk about a crazy day!
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: michael/michaelssword on February 19, 2009, 02:31:50 PM
Oh yeah? Well the thing with me is that on the morning of the test I was reaching for the orange juice and accidentally grabbed laundry detergent and I had to get my stomach pumped. After a good while of that I ripped the IV out of my arm, told the nurse I had an SAT to take, and did what I had to do. Talk about a crazy day!
Tim haswon the thread only because he has actually posted SPAM :o
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: TimMierz on February 19, 2009, 02:33:36 PM
That or I was indirectly and obscurely referring to the ridiculous oneupmanship going on right above me.
I'll go with spam.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: michael/michaelssword on February 19, 2009, 02:34:09 PM
That or I was indirectly and obscurely referring to the ridiculous oneupmanship going on right above me.
I'll go with spam.
did you just wyn this thread twice in one day? I think you did! Is that legal?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Clarinetguy097 on February 20, 2009, 05:29:44 PM
I have a few questions.
Did you write the book of love, And do you have faith in God above, If the Bible tells you so? Do you believe in rock n roll, Can music save your mortal soul, And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Prof Underwood on February 20, 2009, 05:35:17 PM
Did you write the book of love, And do you have faith in God above, If the Bible tells you so? Do you believe in rock n roll, Can music save your mortal soul, And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
The three men I admire most, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, they caught the train for the coast, the day the music died.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: lightningninja on February 20, 2009, 05:38:41 PM
Mark, it was actually the LAST train for the coast. ;)
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Warrior_Monk on February 20, 2009, 05:56:26 PM
Mark, it was actually the LAST train for the coast. ;)
that must have been one Crazy Train.
Crazy, but that's how it goes. Millions of people living as foes. Maybe its not to late To learn how to love And forget how to hate.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 20, 2009, 08:03:18 PM
I love you, You love me, We're a happy family, With a great big hug, And a kiss from me to you, Won't you say you love me too.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 20, 2009, 08:24:15 PM
Born down in a dead man's town The first kick I took was when I hit the ground You end up like a dog that's been beat too much 'Til you spend half your life just covering up
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: lightningninja on February 20, 2009, 08:45:14 PM
Uhm... Off topic? I guess? :)
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: michael/michaelssword on February 21, 2009, 07:40:37 AM
To carry on We'll carry on And though you're dead and gone believe me Your memory will carry on We'll carry on And though you're broken and defeated Your weary widow marches Because through it all the black parade marches on
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: JDS on February 21, 2009, 11:18:43 AM
Props to Colin for bringing up north Jersey's sickeningly popular gimmick bands, MCR and the Jonas Brothers. Collaboration in the works? One can only hope.
Take my hand, and we'll make it I swear. Ooh Ooh, livin' on a prayer.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 02:20:22 PM
Props to Colin for bringing up north Jersey's sickeningly popular gimmick bands, MCR and the Jonas Brothers. Collaboration in the works? One can only hope.
Take my hand, and we'll make it I swear. Ooh Ooh, livin' on a prayer.
I just brought up Bruce Springsteen; the rise of other New Jersey bands I do not take responsibility for (and yes, they are both horrible).
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: PresidentOrangeBus on February 21, 2009, 03:03:23 PM
To carry on We'll carry on And though you're dead and gone believe me Your memory will carry on We'll carry on And though you're broken and defeated Your weary widow marches Because through it all the black parade marches on
This song. Is bad.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 03:56:53 PM
To carry on We'll carry on And though you're dead and gone believe me Your memory will carry on We'll carry on And though you're broken and defeated Your weary widow marches Because through it all the black parade marches on
This song. Is bad.
:amen:
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 21, 2009, 05:11:19 PM
Yeah it kinda is one of the worst songs ive ever heard.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 21, 2009, 05:32:30 PM
I actually meant musically I hated it. Katy Perry isn't as bad musically to me, but I'm hardly an expert. Honestly, Hot and Cold isn't too bad to me. *laughs at himself*
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: JDS on February 21, 2009, 05:45:19 PM
I wasn't really trying to hate on the Jonas Brothers, they did make over 60 million dollars last year and supposedly advocate a Christian life style.
MCR has put out a lot of music for a band with only two or three albums, so at least they have quantity if not quality.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 05:46:58 PM
I actually meant musically I hated it. Katy Perry isn't as bad musically to me, but I'm hardly an expert. Honestly, Hot and Cold isn't too bad to me. *laughs at himself*
And yeah, I marginally agree; I mean, I wouldn't say she is responsibile for how her music sounds in any way whatsoever, but she is very pretty.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: lightningninja on February 21, 2009, 05:55:47 PM
Hey Colin, considering those lyrics are pretty messed up... could you not post those? :-[
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Clarinetguy097 on February 21, 2009, 06:26:30 PM
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 21, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
I ____ed a (non sex specific person) and I liked it is supposedly about 12 year old sleepover fun and not advocating a _______ lifestyle. Katy says its a celebration of (non sex specific person)'s fun.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 06:41:09 PM
I ____ed a (non sex specific person) and I liked it is supposedly about 12 year old sleepover fun and not advocating a _______ lifestyle. Katy says its a celebration of (non sex specific person)'s fun.
I mean, I'll be honest. I kissed a girl and I liked it.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 21, 2009, 06:43:05 PM
(non sex specific person) is a more accurate statement than girl, as I would not wish you to be thought of as someone who advocates superiority based on sex or sexual orientation, as that is clearly not a good position to be in.
Just looking out for you my good (non sex specific person).
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 06:49:34 PM
(non sex specific person) is a more accurate statement than girl, as I would not wish you to be thought of as someone who advocates superiority based on sex or sexual orientation, as that is clearly not a good position to be in.
Just looking out for you my good (non sex specific person).
Hey man... I'm not ashamed. In fact, I'd like to make it clear to anyone who would be wondering that it WAS indeed a girl and I DID indeed like it.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:03:21 PM
Fact: I kissed a girl and I liked it. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 07:04:16 PM
Fact: I kissed Katy Perry and I liked it (she is from Nashville after all).
Fact: Just kidding... For now (I can't figure out where I wrote down her number; I really hope she's not mad at me).
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:05:27 PM
Fact: I would not want to kiss such a (non gender specific person.) Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Alex_Olijar on February 21, 2009, 07:07:16 PM
Fact: Sean is wondering if people understand his last post. Fact.
Fact: Referring to one's self in the third person is ultimate coolness. Fact.
Fact: I didn't understand your last post. Fact.
Fact: that wasn't in the third person.
Fact: I don't talk in third person. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 21, 2009, 07:41:47 PM
Fact. I agree that Colin crossed the line. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 07:43:34 PM
Fact: Oh... That's clever. Fact. Fact: I did cross the line. Fact. Fact: Sorry guys. :angel: Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 21, 2009, 07:44:12 PM
Fact. I agree that Sean is clever. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:44:50 PM
Fact: YMT is also clever. Fact.
Fact: Sean is glad that Colin edited his post. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 07:46:57 PM
Fact: the LDS raptured me and replaced me with an alien. Fact. Fact: Due to this, I registered as a nine on my e-meter readings. Fact. Fact: The evil lord Zenu posted that. Fact. Fact: Katy Perry is an alien. Fact. Fact: I read that on truthism. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:47:42 PM
Fact: Sean like Jennifer Knapp. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 07:50:15 PM
Fact: Colin is in love with Drew Barimore. Fact. Fact: Alister Crowley is way creepier than Michael Jackson and Tom Cruise in a closet with R Kelly.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: thestrongangel on February 21, 2009, 07:51:11 PM
Fact: Someone's got to delete this. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 21, 2009, 07:51:23 PM
Fact. I wonder if Colin's website link at the bottom of his posts is supposed to be spelled "campaign" rather than "campain." Fact. Fact. I won't click on the link since I am afraid it may be a masochist site. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:53:23 PM
Quote from: Rrulez4theSA
Fact: Someone's got to delete this. Fact.
R r u l e z ___4____ t h e S A
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 07:55:04 PM
Fact. I wonder if Colin's website link at the bottom of his posts is supposed to be spelled "campaign" rather than "campain." Fact. Fact. I won't click on the link since I am afraid it may be a masochist site. Fact.
Fact: Don't go to martinlutherking.org/
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 07:57:46 PM
Fact: Posting bad sites to go to is a bad idea. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: The Schaef on February 21, 2009, 08:05:57 PM
Fact: :closed:
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 08:06:36 PM
Fact: Schaef is a party pooper. Fact
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: thestrongangel on February 21, 2009, 08:06:49 PM
Thanks Schaef
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 08:07:21 PM
In before the lock.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 21, 2009, 08:08:31 PM
Fact. There is no lock yet. Fact.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 08:08:51 PM
How many posts do you think we can get before the lock?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: thestrongangel on February 21, 2009, 08:09:09 PM
I dunno
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 08:09:51 PM
Maybe, Schaef isn't a party pooper and he just wanted us to think it was closed?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: thestrongangel on February 21, 2009, 08:10:13 PM
Maybe
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Colin Michael on February 21, 2009, 08:10:57 PM
Fact:
SO, we'll go no more a-roving So late into the night, Though the heart be still as loving, And the moon be still as bright.
For the sword outwears its sheath, 5 And the soul wears out the breast, And the heart must pause to breathe, And love itself have rest.
Though the night was made for loving, And the day returns too soon, 10 Yet we'll go no more a-roving By the light of the moon.
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: Sean on February 21, 2009, 08:12:02 PM
Hmm, Greek poetry?
Title: Re: Music Beliefs
Post by: YourMathTeacher on February 21, 2009, 08:12:29 PM