Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Sadness on August 16, 2014, 11:16:30 PM
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Something that popped in my head. How many ppl quit Redemption in 2014 or retired for awhile? Or left because of the Scripture change? I'm curious.
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I can't imagine anyone actually left because of the Scripture change. Redemption has enough theological issues (Falling Away, Saint Patrick, playable demons, etc.) that I would think that anyone who was going to quit over something like that would have already done so.
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I think Sadness is the only person who had a legitimate problem with the scripture change
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I can't imagine anyone actually left because of the Scripture change. Redemption has enough theological issues (Falling Away, Saint Patrick, playable demons, etc.) that I would think that anyone who was going to quit over something like that would have already done so.
And now with the new wording on Coming of the Spirit you will be able to put The Holy Spirit on a converted Judas.
"Search deck or discard pile for The Holy Spirit. Place it on your disciple: It gains clay brigade. Cannot be negated."
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I can't imagine anyone actually left because of the Scripture change. Redemption has enough theological issues (Falling Away, Saint Patrick, playable demons, etc.) that I would think that anyone who was going to quit over something like that would have already done so.
And now with the new wording on Coming of the Spirit you will be able to put The Holy Spirit on a converted Judas.
"Search deck or discard pile for The Holy Spirit. Place it on your disciple: It gains clay brigade. Cannot be negated."
You cannot gain the brigade of an opposite alignment.
I took an accidental hiatus in 2014 due to money.
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I took a somewhat intentional hiatus because nothing happened and I couldn't go to any tournaments.
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Many people come and go as happens every year. Kirk is the only one that I know for sure retired from the game, and that was for personal reasons.
Many others have become less involved, but personally I don't know of anyone who left the game due to the change in scripture.
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I personally wasn't big on the change but it's no reason to quit.
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What it this scripture change that I missed? As for 2014 I'm currently in the process of selling because funds are getting short with college and stuff.
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Redemption is losing more people than it's gaining it seems, and that's been happening for quite some time. Scripture change had nothing to do with it. I was really optimistic last year with the starter decks. Design improved, the metagame was probably the best it's ever been, and we finally had a new starter deck to teach other people to play. There was no follow up though. A great leap for the game that just didn't go as far as it could have.
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I admit I've been less active mostly because both of the primary hosts in SE WI are no longer hosting (Ken moved to AZ, and wasn't hosting for awhile even before that, and Kirk has left the game). I'm in a tiny barely-1-bedroom apartment now so I don't really have space to even host locals anymore, and while I try to make it to MN for the big tournaments (like the T2-only this past Feb which was super fun) it's a 6-hour-ish drive each way so I can't make the commitment just for a local or even a district really.
I know someone recently started hosting tournaments in the Chicago area so I'm hoping to check that out and maybe start attending some of those. Or else if I can find a cheap-ish space to rent I can start hosting WI tournaments again.
I don't know if the players up in the Green Bay area are still having tournies or not, only a couple would usually attend ours down south so I haven't heard from then in awhile.
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im still in the game though I don't play as much but I will remain in the game unto the end, but I do hope in the near future to redownload Hamachi and return to ROOT
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I admit I've been less active mostly because both of the primary hosts in SE WI are no longer hosting (Ken moved to AZ, and wasn't hosting for awhile even before that, and Kirk has left the game). I'm in a tiny barely-1-bedroom apartment now so I don't really have space to even host locals anymore, and while I try to make it to MN for the big tournaments (like the T2-only this past Feb which was super fun) it's a 6-hour-ish drive each way so I can't make the commitment just for a local or even a district really.
I know someone recently started hosting tournaments in the Chicago area so I'm hoping to check that out and maybe start attending some of those. Or else if I can find a cheap-ish space to rent I can start hosting WI tournaments again.
I don't know if the players up in the Green Bay area are still having tournies or not, only a couple would usually attend ours down south so I haven't heard from then in awhile.
Well someone needs to keep Wisconsin tournaments going...your state was well-represented at Nationals :)
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One thing we have to think about is are we only considering number on the boards? I know that TN has two play groups that are larger than they were a year ago, but there are only 3 people total from those play groups on the boards. I know that the group in KY also has a very solid playgroup (I think that is still growing) but they aren't all on the boards. I also know that I'm extremely active in the game and am continuing to teach and play every week with the kids at church, but might get on here once or twice a week unless I have a trade brewing. So if we are talking boards wise, yeah maybe it has dropped, but I would be surprised if overall numbers are on the decline. Nationals was low this year but we also had a late change, and I know of at least 2 or 3 dozen people who had the intentions to go, but ultimately could not make it.
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It's hard to make time for card games when you're surrounded by more interesting things like girls, science, that banh mi restaurant on Washington Street (I'm sitting there right now), and also girls.
Although I suppose we could host a tournament in lab. Is anyone else trained to use radiation and animals?
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Girls, huh? Pretty to look at but painful on the wallet.
On the playgroup- it's been awhile since the Texas playgroup had a tournament too.
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Girls aren't as cute as you saucey :-*
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I admit I've been less active mostly because both of the primary hosts in SE WI are no longer hosting (Ken moved to AZ, and wasn't hosting for awhile even before that, and Kirk has left the game). I'm in a tiny barely-1-bedroom apartment now so I don't really have space to even host locals anymore, and while I try to make it to MN for the big tournaments (like the T2-only this past Feb which was super fun) it's a 6-hour-ish drive each way so I can't make the commitment just for a local or even a district really.
I know someone recently started hosting tournaments in the Chicago area so I'm hoping to check that out and maybe start attending some of those. Or else if I can find a cheap-ish space to rent I can start hosting WI tournaments again.
I don't know if the players up in the Green Bay area are still having tournies or not, only a couple would usually attend ours down south so I haven't heard from then in awhile.
Well someone needs to keep Wisconsin tournaments going...your state was well-represented at Nationals :)
Exactly. My brothers and I play, we got a couple other kids into Redemption, they got 4 other kids into Redemption, maybe more... None of them are on the boards. Pity we don't have a playgroup up here...
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Girls, huh? Pretty to look at but painful on the wallet.
And redemption isn't? Sure maybe not as much as other card games but it still takes a solid chunk of change to be competitive.
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I could sell you the deck that won T1 2P at Nationals for $80.
I'm not saying that's chump change, but it's not crazy expensive either.
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Girls, huh? Pretty to look at but painful on the wallet.
And redemption isn't? Sure maybe not as much as other card games but it still takes a solid chunk of change to be competitive.
Define solid chunk for me before I respond, because I'm fairly certain I disagree.
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Well it depends what you are playing. Let's say you go to a nationals. You enter Booster or sealed. $15. Then you have your T1 deck so we'll say $80 for that T1 deck. Then you enter T2 that's probably a little more. Maybe $100-120 depending on the cards. Could be a lot more if you are running multiple KoT's and such. Just that alone is a little more than $200. This doesn't include the fact that their are tournament fees, lodging fees, and traveling fees, which if you are going to be competitive are expensive. Then their is the fact that people usually don't just buy decks straight up. So in the end I would say you are looking at a couple hundred bucks to play competitively. I would call that a good chunk of money. Is it anywhere near Magic, of course not, but it is nothing to sneeze at. I mean Westy, sorry to use as an example, didn't go to nationals for this reason and maybe some others, I don't really know. It's not the cheapest thing to try and stay competitive in.
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I guess for me I don't define that as a solid chunk.
Because we don't rotate cards it's not really $80 for that deck (Which is still ridiculously cheap comparatively) It's $80 spread out over however long you've been playing the game/decided to be competitive. I bought $25 worth of packs for the new cards, and spent $100 in gas 3 different times to get to MN state, NC Regs, and Natz. I don't remember what all entry fees I've paid, but its less than $40. I've also liquidated some cards and come somewhat close to breaking even.
I'm a competitive player. I can compete in Redemption for multiple years for far less than I spent on Magic in the year I tried to be competitive in that.
For that matter, I can compete in Redemption for far cheaper than competitive Dominion, Settlers, etc.
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That's not the game being expensive though, that's traveling in general that is expensive. Considering you could stay at the church for free, get decent meals at a cheap price and not really have to drive anywhere once you're there, Nationals does not have to be a huge financial drain. In the case of Westy and I'm sure others, it was more the matter of missing time at work, but that's going to be true for any type of vacation if your job does not include PTO.
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It's funny since this 'solid chunk' only happens once a year for this game. That's a normal weekend for any competitive MtG player traveling to a SCG Open or GP. The average price to play a top tier deck in Standard is around $200. $3000 to $4000 for Legacy. Let's not talk about 'solid chunk's for this game just yet.
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Girls, huh? Pretty to look at but painful on the wallet.
You have no idea.
::)
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It's funny since this 'solid chunk' only happens once a year for this game. That's a normal weekend for any competitive MtG player traveling to a SCG Open or GP. The average price to play a top tier deck in Standard is around $200. $3000 to $4000 for Legacy. Let's not talk about 'solid chunk's for this game just yet.
And honestly I think that's one of the great things about Redemption--compared to other CCGs, it's affordable. Not saying it's cheap, but when a parent can get a starter deck (two decks) and a couple packs for around $20 for their kids, that's a good deal. Most smaller tournaments are free, and with the numerous generous hosts we have around the country who invest their time and resources into acquiring cards that the younger members of their playgroups wouldn't be able to get, Redemption becomes more like a family playing a family game.
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What it this scripture change that I missed? As for 2014 I'm currently in the process of selling because funds are getting short with college and stuff.
I second this? Life has kept me out of a Redemption, I heard there was a new set came back and am now confused!
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And honestly I think that's one of the great things about Redemption--compared to other CCGs, it's affordable. Not saying it's cheap, but when a parent can get a starter deck (two decks) and a couple packs for around $20 for their kids, that's a good deal. Most smaller tournaments are free, and with the numerous generous hosts we have around the country who invest their time and resources into acquiring cards that the younger members of their playgroups wouldn't be able to get, Redemption becomes more like a family playing a family game.
This is so true. I tried Magic back in the day (15 years ago or so) and couldn't do it as a teenager and be competitive. I've been playing Redemption now for 4 years, my oldest son plays, and now I'm introducing the game to my youngest two (6 & 5 years old), and it's not that bad compared to other games. I'm having to invest in cards for myself (T2 player mostly), and cards for my kids. It gets expensive, but I don't have to drop a $1000 on one or two cards, so I'm happy to have a game that is 1) Christian Competitive Card Game & 2) Not too bad on the wallet. And speaking on generous hosts, Crashfach here in Knoxville is amazing. He is collecting every card for our players and does straight up trades for cards they don't have with multiples they acquire. It would take me forever to try to do this just for my own kids, but he's doing it with the whole playgroup and that make life easier on me. For sure a great family game.
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Crash is definitely one of those hosts I had in mind! :thumbup:
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This year is my tenth year of playing the game and I have no intention of stopping. :)
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I'm trying to leave but no one wants to buy my stuff :p.
Seriously, though, since God called us to a different church and different ministries than what we previously were doing, there is no real place for Redemption in my life anymore. I also don't want to spend over $100 to drive to a tournament as well.
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I have been collecting Redemption cards for years and I will continue to do so as long as I am able. However, my "career" as a player has been limited. I attended a couple of local tournaments in Joppa MD, sometime after the Disciple expansion was released, so that I could observe and learn how the game was played. I did form a very small playgroup in lower Delaware, actually just myself and my wife, and started playing using the E and F decks. Later, we moved up to the G and H decks. Finally we tried making our own decks, but we just got very confused and we had to make up many "house rules" to settle battle resolutions. We have not played for awhile now, but we are planning to get out the I and J decks and get back into playing. The last few years we have been playing a tile game called Rummikub and the City of Bondage Board game.
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Well, it has been over a year scince I last played redemption, however I still collect cards and if my family decides to move to a different state, hopefully I will be able to play again. I havent played in over a year, because there is no playgroup anymore down in VA.
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I will play again....some day. Either when I move to the midwest or all ANB errata is removed...whichever comes first. ;)
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Numbers on the boards shouldn't be taken as strength of the overall game now that it's nearly impossible to find the link to the boards on the cactus site without actively looking for it. I'd be surprised if a single new person has joined since the change that wasn't given a direct link. I don't know what the reason was for the change but it should be changed back.
/guyWhoDoesn'tPlayAndRarelyComesHereAnymore
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Honestly, 'Forums' should be given its own tab at the top of the home page.
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Honestly, 'Forums' should be given its own tab at the top of the home page.
this would be a good start. I'm also not a fan of the default home page for new members. When I'm first coming to a message board, the 5 most recent posts are rarely what I want to see first. I want to see a list of everything that's being discussed on the boards so that I can find something that interests me and then jump in to or start a discussion. If you visit the boards often, as I used to, it was definitely useful but it would have been just as useful if it were a selectable option in your profile settings once you actually get used the boards.
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/guyWhoDoesn'tPlayAndRarelyComesHereAnymore
I'm guessing you quit playing because you were upset about the scripture change?
;)
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/guyWhoDoesn'tPlayAndRarelyComesHereAnymore
I'm guessing you quit playing because you were upset about the scripture change?
;)
That and the moral quandary of falling away. I just couldn't take it. :angel:
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So what exactly was this "scripture change?"
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The version of the verses on cards changed from KJV to NASB.
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The version of the verses on cards changed from KJV to NASB.
Awesome! I love NASB! I think I'll start playing more Redemption now that I know! ;D
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Just to directly respond to the original post:
I was a primary TX player and sold my collection when I left for college a few hours away, but recently transferred to a different college back in the DFW area. I do wish I still had my collection, but I am not about to spend the money to rebuild what I once had (especially since TX has died out for the most part).
Also, as I sit here in my Biblical interpretation class right now I can't help but laugh at the Scripture change jokes. :P
P.S. - ANB Era was when I thrived. LONG LIVE ANB!
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I agree that TX playgroup is pretty much dead. Haven't seen a tournament all year. Arkansas also seems to have folded too. Florida, Tennessee and California are still going as also some East Coast states.
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I only know of the play group I am a part of as far as VA goes.
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Kentucky is actually growing. The playgroup at Oakdale is still strong with Brian Jones taking over leadership. And for the first time in half a dozen years there is now a second playgroup in KY that is coming to tournaments. It is based out of Louisville and is being led by Luke (I can't remember his last name).
And TN has already been mentioned as having 2 playgroups that are also growing, and getting stronger.
OH has been dead for a while, but Uthminister seems like he might be interested in bringing that state back into the tournament scene.
So actually things are healthier in that area than they have been in a while.
And MN just added another decent player in myself. I don't know if that makes any difference though considering how strong that state has always been anyway.
However, Mr. and Mrs. Maly (Tim and Britta) will be living in North Dakota, and assuming that they start anything up there (likely) it will certainly be increasing the strength of ND higher than it's ever been before.
So there is actually a lot of good news around the country for Redemption.
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IMO, It is easier for the east/mid eastern states to grow than the western states due to the size of the states themselves. Within four hours, you could probably cross an entire state. That will help people stay more connected and help new groups bring in veterans of the game to help their playgroup. On the west coast, the groups are too far apart for them to help each other. In Cali, I would dive around four hours one way to reach the closest playgroup to me (besides the small one I used to host). The next closest one was around six+ hours away (and I live roughly in the middle of the state).
It is great to hear groups forming and growing. This is a great game to teach our children Bible characters.
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It's thrilling to hear about playgroups like Iowa and Oakdale that are thriving, and I'm hoping that people like Mark, Bryan, and Gabe can give detailed explanations as to how they've managed to foster that. The Hanover, PA playgroup has continued to do as well, but we don't see the kind of growth that other playgroups do.
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IMO, It is easier for the east/mid eastern states to grow than the western states due to the size of the states themselves. Within four hours, you could probably cross an entire state. That will help people stay more connected and help new groups bring in veterans of the game to help their playgroup. On the west coast, the groups are too far apart for them to help each other. In Cali, I would dive around four hours one way to reach the closest playgroup to me (besides the small one I used to host). The next closest one was around six+ hours away (and I live roughly in the middle of the state).
It is great to hear groups forming and growing. This is a great game to teach our children Bible characters.
Maybe videoconferencing is the answer for the west coast?
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The playgroup in Arcadia, California hereby enacts the STAMP Act, which requires all players who live in the west coast colonies to participate in our tournaments by videoconferencing.
And in those tournaments, ANB shall be played as printed.
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And TN has already been mentioned as having 2 playgroups that are also growing, and getting stronger.
im still interested in starting a playgroup for middle TN but I attempted to get something going at my church while I was still in Bethpage, not enough interest. but as of recently, I got a new job at Cracker Barrel as a dishwasher I've mainly been working weeknights and days on weekends. on the waiting list for a couple of apartment places for a 1 bedroom apartment, and things have been pretty busy with me as of late but im still clinging onto a hope to be able to find a church around in my area and take redemption with me and set up a playgroup and put middle TN back on the map
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If somebody started a Nashville area playgroup, I would try to attend. I don't have the time to organize it at this point though.
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I'm interviewing for an internship at Genentech soon, so with any luck I'll be in California over the summer :).
Now, I haven't played in several years...
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The playgroup in Arcadia, California hereby enacts the STAMP Act, which requires all players who live in the west coast colonies to participate in our tournaments by videoconferencing.
And in those tournaments, ANB shall be played as printed.
(Note to self: set up luncheon with Oregon state and local lawmakers. Either that or commute down to Hilt, CA.)
I'm interviewing for an internship at Genentech soon, so with any luck I'll be in California over the summer :).
Now, I haven't played in several years...
Which corporate location? If it's Vacaville it's near where I visit family. We could have some locals. ;)
(...now if I could just get TJ to explain to me how Twitch works...spreadin' the Gospel, one media at a time...)
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Which corporate location? If it's Vacaville it's near where I visit family. We could have some locals. ;)
South San Francisco, although the church I go to was started at UC Berkeley so I'd probably be living with some of them right by the Berkeley campus. So that's a bit closer.
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I think I disappeared in 2012... was it some world disaster gone awry or something? I don't remember... Anyway, I MIGHT be re-entering the game now that the rules and such have been mostly sorted out, and there are new starter decks for me to force re-learn the game. Probably will be quite some time before I participate in a tournament though... Seeing as the U.S./Canada border and 10+ hours distance stands in my way lol :o. Who knows, maybe I will start a Canadian division ;)
-C_S
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I think I disappeared in 2012... was it some world disaster gone awry or something? I don't remember... Anyway, I MIGHT be re-entering the game now that the rules and such have been mostly sorted out, and there are new starter decks for me to force re-learn the game. Probably will be quite some time before I participate in a tournament though... Seeing as the U.S./Canada border and 10+ hours distance stands in my way lol :o. Who knows, maybe I will start a Canadian division ;)
Welcome Back! ;D
Will you be working your way back to Florida anytime soon?
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I think I disappeared in 2012... was it some world disaster gone awry or something? I don't remember... Anyway, I MIGHT be re-entering the game now that the rules and such have been mostly sorted out, and there are new starter decks for me to force re-learn the game. Probably will be quite some time before I participate in a tournament though... Seeing as the U.S./Canada border and 10+ hours distance stands in my way lol :o. Who knows, maybe I will start a Canadian division ;)
Welcome Back! ;D
Will you be working your way back to Florida anytime soon?
Only for family emergencies... but I hope to get to a point in the near future where I can visit regularly. For now, the frozen north is my home haha.
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There's a few players in Winnipeg who have come down to Minneapolis on occasion for tournaments. If you ever feel so bold (and depending on where in The Great White North you are) you would be more than welcome.
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There's a few players in Winnipeg who have come down to Minneapolis on occasion for tournaments. If you ever feel so bold (and depending on where in The Great White North you are) you would be more than welcome.
He is in Edmonton.
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There's a few players in Winnipeg who have come down to Minneapolis on occasion for tournaments. If you ever feel so bold (and depending on where in The Great White North you are) you would be more than welcome.
It would take quite a miracle for me to willingly return to Winnipeg... They confiscated my good pair of scissors! >:(
Like YMT said, I am in Edmonton... basically the same distance from Minneapolis as I was in Florida... just the opposite direction! I will have to find a work around on the shipping charges for a brand new starter set to maybe get my wife playing ;)
By the way YMT, I forgot to say thanks for the welcome back haha... The youth of today are so ungrateful!!
-C_S
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It's thrilling to hear about playgroups like Iowa and Oakdale that are thriving, and I'm hoping that people like Mark, Bryan, and Gabe can give detailed explanations as to how they've managed to foster that. The Hanover, PA playgroup has continued to do as well, but we don't see the kind of growth that other playgroups do.
I agree. We have a large number of talented players, but we lack in beginners that we can help learn the basics of the game.
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If only 2 people still enjoy playing a game of redemption with each other, the game will not die.
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If only 2 people still enjoy playing a game of redemption with each other, the game will not die.
From a business standpoint, it will be dead. That's what this is all boiling down to. Is there enough interest for the PTB to continue investing time into playtesting? Is there enough for Rob (and others) to keep throwing money into?
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Does Redemption even make a notable profit anymore in sales? I thought it has been said elsewhere Redemption barely breaks even. From a business standpoint, the game died years ago.
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Does Redemption even make a notable profit anymore in sales? I thought it has been said elsewhere Redemption barely breaks even. From a business standpoint, the game died years ago.
From what I understand Redemption's smaller but passionate demographic is more like a cult following. I Bet, even if the whole game went entirely out of print, there would still be groups of diehard players that would make their own unofficial expansions or continue playing with what cards they had and gathering people until there was enough of a following to be worthy of printing new cards. haha, i can imagine a group of young people here playing a redemption tournament as elder geezers in a bunker while the apocalypse rages outside. :laugh:
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I'm still here!
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Does Redemption even make a notable profit anymore in sales? I thought it has been said elsewhere Redemption barely breaks even. From a business standpoint, the game died years ago.
It's not profitable, but it's breaking even. For Rob, that means it's worth it to continue. He's not losing money, and people are enjoying it. That's what's important to him. However, when that number of people begins to drop off, and Rob starts losing money, I could see him, with a heavy heart, let Redemption die.
Does Redemption even make a notable profit anymore in sales? I thought it has been said elsewhere Redemption barely breaks even. From a business standpoint, the game died years ago.
From what I understand Redemption's smaller but passionate demographic is more like a cult following. I Bet, even if the whole game went entirely out of print, there would still be groups of diehard players that would make their own unofficial expansions or continue playing with what cards they had and gathering people until there was enough of a following to be worthy of printing new cards.
There would be less than 20 people who would do that. It's amazing that we still to Nationals when it's not possible to make money off it, even if you win every category. People lose hundreds of dollars paying for flights, hotels, and cards, and all they get back is fun. Yay. While I am one of those people who have invested a considerable amount of money into the game, I have to admit that part of the reason I love Pokemon is that I can actually make money off a tournament. Obviously the point of tournaments is to find out who the best is, but it's been an integral part from the beginning to then reward them for their hard effort. Redemption doesn't really do that.
The best it could do is exist in an online platform, with a subgroup of players releasing unofficial expansions for it, as you mentioned. Realistically, it should have migrated online a long time ago. I don't think it would revive the game though. If we had the will (and money to back it) to do that, it'd be done already.
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Less than 20 people? I think it would be more, but I could be wrong.
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Less than 20 people? I think it would be more, but I could be wrong.
I know of probably 5 just from my church that would continue to play, though not probably with connection to everyone else. We have tournaments (unnoficial) every 2-3 weeks, and none of us have many TEC cards, but it still is really exciting to see what new combos are made, and how people can effectively use old cards.
I think that there could be closer to 50 players who continued.
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I misunderstood. Less than 20 people who would "gather" meaning travel for it. There would be groups that may continue for a short time, though again, I really don't expect it to last seeing it's struggling to stay alive even with official backing, but perhaps you're right and Cactus is the issue.
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Gotcha.
I don't know if cactus is the issue, it has partially to blame, but I think that it is also us players too, and then just the fact that whatever we say, there are less people interested in card games these days
I wonder how many people, Christians too, that I have met that would love this game that I did not tell about it simply because I would be seen as a nerd and an nonathletic person, I am not saying those things are bad, I would just not like to have those labels from others.
Also, if redemption wasn't christian I wouldn't play it, simply because it is not as appealing as Pokemon or Magic.
Not saying it is worse, but would be if not for the spiritual element that adds somthing else to the game that is more appealing than pokemon or magic; and also if someone else doesn't have that like of spiritual things, then they might like magic or pokemon better
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We should promote this game as uncool, because then we would attract a ton of hipsters.
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We should promote this game as uncool, because then we would attract a ton of hipsters.
wow lol
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Also, if redemption wasn't christian I wouldn't play it, simply because it is not as appealing as Pokemon or Magic.
From a gameplay standpoint, I firmly believe that Redemption can hang with the best of them. But the crux of the issue is other TCGs offer so many more reasons to play than Redemption.
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We should promote this game as uncool, because then we would attract a ton of hipsters.
It's Marketed as "Christian" so it's uncool by default
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From a gameplay standpoint, I firmly believe that Redemption can hang with the best of them. But the crux of the issue is other TCGs offer so many more reasons to play than Redemption.
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Like what?
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From a gameplay standpoint, I firmly believe that Redemption can hang with the best of them.
If someone came up with a good way to fix Soul Drought, then I'd agree with you.
The tempo of your turn being defined by your opponent's draw is ridiculous.
Like what?
Release schedule, tournament incentives, production quality, community size.
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Besides the obvious reasons (religion and such) why would someone want to play MTG or Pokémon more than redemption?
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It's Marketed as "Christian" so it's uncool by default
This is your first post I've agreed with, and I'm really not sure why it was -1'd. Except for the fact that it's not even marketed.
From a gameplay standpoint, I firmly believe that Redemption can hang with the best of them.
If someone came up with a good way to fix Soul Drought, then I'd agree with you.
The tempo of your turn being defined by your opponent's draw is ridiculous.
There are plenty of soul generation cards. And you can land drought in magic. Whiff energy in Pokemon. Miss 1-2 drops in Hearthstone. If you build your deck right, you should be able to come back from this.
That said, I wouldn't be opposed to no rescuing on your first turn. And potentially starting with 1 generic lost soul. Or simply upping the lost soul requirement to 1 per 7 cards like it should be.
Besides the obvious reasons (religion and such) why would someone want to play MTG or Pokémon more than redemption?
Release schedule, tournament incentives, production quality, community size.
Mostly this. I play for cash and glory, and Redemption doesn't really offer either. Not saying I wouldn't be happy to win a National championship, but how hollow would it be to win a 8 person T2 Multiplayer Nats title? Yay, I'm better than 7 other people. Some title. T1-2P is still semi-competitive, but these days only ~50% are even playing competitive decks. In Pokemon, closer to 90% of people have competitive decks. It is far more satisfying (and rewarding) to win a Pokemon State tournament than a Redemption State tournament.
And yes, I also play for fun, but seeing as I can have fun while potentially winning money, why not do that?
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Besides the obvious reasons (religion and such) why would someone want to play MTG or Pokémon more than redemption?
JSB just answered that question for you. Pokemon and Magic offer more tournaments, more people, more releases, better quality control, and a chance to win prizes that are worthwhile. Redemption offers one slow message board that grows less and less active as time goes on. This becomes something of a vicious cycle, as I'm currently pretty excited about Redemption, but it doesn't matter because nobody else is.
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Does Redemption even make a notable profit anymore in sales? I thought it has been said elsewhere Redemption barely breaks even. From a business standpoint, the game died years ago.
It's not profitable, but it's breaking even. For Rob, that means it's worth it to continue. He's not losing money, and people are enjoying it. That's what's important to him. However, when that number of people begins to drop off, and Rob starts losing money, I could see him, with a heavy heart, let Redemption die.
The number of people have dropped off. Sales have decreased significantly over the years. Breaking even over several years just means you're investing time and energy for nothing. From a business standpoint, that's dead. Continuing to push the game because people enjoy it despite the lackluster earnings is a whole different story.
From a gameplay standpoint, I firmly believe that Redemption can hang with the best of them.
Too many cards in Redemption with horrible balancing issues. No appropriate cost system in place. Too many cards that say you can or cant do X. Draw abilities are beyond repair. A win condition heavily dependent upon your opponents draw. A 2 card completely nonrestrictive combo that rewards nearly half of the games win condition. A single game takes far too long than it should (you would think the opposite of a game that draws 3 times faster than normal CCGs). No best 2 of 3. No sideboard or similar function. Top cut after Swiss still not official.
There is a long list of reasons Redemption is far from the top of all the CCGs I have played.
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Too many cards in Redemption with horrible balancing issues. No appropriate cost system in place. Too many cards that say you can or cant do X. Draw abilities are beyond repair. A win condition heavily dependent upon your opponents draw. A 2 card completely nonrestrictive combo that rewards nearly half of the games win condition. A single game takes far too long than it should (you would think the opposite of a game that draws 3 times faster than normal CCGs). No best 2 of 3. No sideboard or similar function. Top cut after Swiss still not official.
There is a long list of reasons Redemption is far from the top of all the CCGs I have played.
Most of those have nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game (or otherwise aren't necessarily required), and all of them are fixable. The problems don't lie with the gameplay, they lie with poor decision making up to this point, which a reboot would fix. I like the core mechanics, and think they do stand with any of the three big CCGs, the problem is what has been built onto them.
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I changed from Pokémon to redemption because it was about the bible and that sounded like a good way to evangelize.
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I changed from Pokémon to redemption because it was about the bible and that sounded like a good way to evangelize.
It's easier to go out into their playing field then trying to bring them to you.
Too many cards in Redemption with horrible balancing issues. No appropriate cost system in place. Too many cards that say you can or cant do X. Draw abilities are beyond repair. A win condition heavily dependent upon your opponents draw. A 2 card completely nonrestrictive combo that rewards nearly half of the games win condition. A single game takes far too long than it should (you would think the opposite of a game that draws 3 times faster than normal CCGs). No best 2 of 3. No sideboard or similar function. Top cut after Swiss still not official.
There is a long list of reasons Redemption is far from the top of all the CCGs I have played.
Most of those have nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game (or otherwise aren't necessarily required), and all of them are fixable. The problems don't lie with the gameplay, they lie with poor decision making up to this point, which a reboot would fix. I like the core mechanics, and think they do stand with any of the three big CCGs, the problem is what has been built onto them.
This. I don't believe we need a cost system necessarily, just balanced cards.
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I have been discussing the issues with Redemption with a couple of friends of mine, we've decided the biggest ones are (aside from lack of playtesting and proofreading and rules issues that are mostly due to volunteers who have lives outside Redemption):
1) Dominants are too powerful and the whole 'play whenever nothing else is going on without any sort of priority system' isn't really a good way of handling them.
2) Silver, Teal, Clay and Orange as brigades. Especially Silver = Angel and Orange = Demon, but all of them have issues.
3) Lost Soul drought being far too common, of course that is mostly an effect of the way Lost Souls are cards in the deck.
4) Character abilities by default not being active outside of battle.
5) Recently we've also been discussing that Interrupt the Battle should be changed to not interrupt Ongoing Abilities, to give things like non CBI Immunity a chance to be playable again.
Now that doesn't mean that these are the only issues or that we necessarily have a solution besides a reboot (or a split with Traditional and Modern).
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When I played, I wasn't a big fan of how the rules of Redemption varied from day to day, and from elder to elder on the exact same day.
(And in some cases, varied within the same day with the same elder)
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Too many cards in Redemption with horrible balancing issues. No appropriate cost system in place. Too many cards that say you can or cant do X. Draw abilities are beyond repair. A win condition heavily dependent upon your opponents draw. A 2 card completely nonrestrictive combo that rewards nearly half of the games win condition. A single game takes far too long than it should (you would think the opposite of a game that draws 3 times faster than normal CCGs). No best 2 of 3. No sideboard or similar function. Top cut after Swiss still not official.
There is a long list of reasons Redemption is far from the top of all the CCGs I have played.
Most of those have nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game (or otherwise aren't necessarily required), and all of them are fixable. The problems don't lie with the gameplay, they lie with poor decision making up to this point, which a reboot would fix. I like the core mechanics, and think they do stand with any of the three big CCGs, the problem is what has been built onto them.
I'm honestly curious what you're exactly proposing to fix if the problem is not a part of the 'core mechanics' or 'gameplay' of the game, or however other avenue you wish to frame the idea.
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I'm honestly curious what you're exactly proposing to fix if the problem is not a part of the 'core mechanics' or 'gameplay' of the game, or however other avenue you wish to frame the idea.
Reboot without broken cards?
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Redemption would be great, if we got rid of all the Redemption cards.
Joking aside, he's right.
The power curve and cardpool are borked beyond all belief, but, aside from a few exceptions (LS generation and Dominants come to mind), the basis is solid.
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I'm honestly curious what you're exactly proposing to fix if the problem is not a part of the 'core mechanics' or 'gameplay' of the game, or however other avenue you wish to frame the idea.
Reboot without broken cards?
I agree a restart (or set rotation) with the knowledge we know now would certainly help pave the way towards far more balanced cards and hopefully less power creep. But wouldn't simply banning imba cards be a more pragmatic approach and do exactly the same thing? Is there anything else a reboot would further accomplish?
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I agree a restart (or set rotation) with the knowledge we know now would certainly help pave the way towards far more balanced cards and hopefully less power creep. But wouldn't simply banning imba cards be a more pragmatic approach and do exactly the same thing? Is there anything else a reboot would further accomplish?
Back in FooF? Sure.
Now? Not a chance, the ban list would need to be absolutely massive.
I like the idea of a total reboot, because it allows the designers a chance to fix problems with the structure of the game, while fixing the card pool. Kill two birds with one stone.
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I agree a restart (or set rotation) with the knowledge we know now would certainly help pave the way towards far more balanced cards and hopefully less power creep. But wouldn't simply banning imba cards be a more pragmatic approach and do exactly the same thing? Is there anything else a reboot would further accomplish?
Banning would deal with some issues, but it wouldn't address the power creep, since Cactus's non banning practices led to solve overpowered cards by creating cards which were of similar power, but all over the place. A reboot would allow us to start fresh.
Also a reboot allows a perfect opportunity to rebuild the rules and possibly make improvements to the game as a whole, especially when we don't have one or two badly worded cards for almost every ability type and have to try and make them work.
Finally it would allow the reduction of the brigades down to the original six on each side and give an opportunity to make each brigade more unique and playing different strategies, rather than printing very similar cards in several brigades.
So to summarize a reboot could: Reset the power level to whatever works. Rebuild the rules to create a cleaner, more consistent game and rework the brigades to make the game more interesting. Banning wouldn't really accomplish these unless it was on the level of mass set rotation.
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The issue is, if we were to have a reboot, it'd have had to been planned after I/J starters, and it most definitely was not planned. Anything else at this point would either have to be a huge investment by CGD, or moving to an online client, or selling the rights to a company that has the money to restart it.
This is all hypothetical, of course. I highly doubt a reboot would ever happen. Olijar essentially tried back when I/J came out, but the Elders didn't seem to care for it, as I recall.
Also, yeah, no dominants in the reboot. Or if you do make dominants, they're consistency cards like "Search your deck for an evil character" and they can only be played during your prep/discard phase.
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Also, yeah, no dominants in the reboot. Or if you do make dominants, they're consistency cards like "Search your deck for an evil character" and they can only be played during your prep/discard phase.
That makes it only slightly better than a territory class card. The issue with Dominants is that playing them isn't regulated by rules and they can't be responded to. You could make dominants work if you created a priority system (which Redemption needs whether a reboot happens or not) and if you created something like Magic's Stack or Yu-Gi-Oh's chain rule to allow responses.
In fact the inability to respond to opponents abilities is one of Redemption's biggest issues. What is the least fun most people have in a card game? Probably watching your opponent do a bunch of stuff while you can't do anything about it, or as it's often called "Playing Solitaire". In fact I remember several years back how much work the Playtesters and/or rule makers had to do to stop many of those combos that were essentially twenty minutes (or more) of Redemption Solitaire, when the issue is actually one that is inherent in the current system: In Redemption you have to wait until abilities complete before you can respond.
Basically there is no opportunity to insert another ability between an ability activating and an ability resolving. We had to make Special Initiative to counter this basic concept, but if you pay attention you'll notice that the best strategies are based on denying your opponent the opportunity to use Special Initiative, or regular initiative, but that's a different story. The game is it's best when both players can play cards and the winner is decided by who played them best, rather than games being decided by who has the most opportunity to play their cards.
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To be fair, MtG had Split Second and it didn't bust the game. I think the main problem with Dominants is the fact you're getting a handful of the most uber powerful abilities in the game that can be played at absolutely anytime at the price tag of zero to the user. The fact every single deck uses the most powerful ones wasn't an indication they are broken decades ago? A stack/chain would benefit Redemption greatly because of the way the game is structured while also taking some much needed power away from Dominants.
An interesting note though is that some CCG's are able to successfully pull off giving a player little to no interaction during another players turn, such as Hearthstone. However, that is intentional as the game puts heavy emphasis on combat and sequencing, whereas Redemptions inability to respond is in most cases a product of poor design on card abilities and does not stem from actual core mechanics.
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To be fair, MtG had Split Second and it didn't bust the game. I think the main problem with Dominants is the fact you're getting a handful of the most uber powerful abilities in the game that can be played at absolutely anytime at the price tag of zero to the user. The fact every single deck uses the most powerful ones wasn't an indication they are broken decades ago? A stack/chain would benefit Redemption greatly because of the way the game is structured while also taking some much needed power away from Dominants.
An interesting note though is that some CCG's are able to successfully pull off giving a player little to no interaction during another players turn, such as Hearthstone. However, that is intentional as the game puts heavy emphasis on combat and sequencing, whereas Redemptions inability to respond is in most cases a product of poor design on card abilities and does not stem from actual core mechanics.
I agree with this, although I will point out that a handful of mediocre cards with the ability that they can't be responded to isn't the same as an entire based around the concept. I also understand that games can be good without interaction, but like you said, that's if it is built to work that way.
I do think that Redemption's move from a game focused primarily on numbers with occasional special abilities, to focused mostly on special abilities where numbers still regulate the game flow (initiative in battle) but have little impact on the game other than that, has caused the game many problems, because rather than adding a stack, they just made exceptions to handle things (Interrupt and Negate can respond to Special Abilities in some cases).
If a reboot were to happen, I would really hope improving Special Ability interaction would be part of the reboot, possibly even retooling how initiative works.
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One thing I didn't like about the game is it took so long to learn.
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I'm honestly curious what you're exactly proposing to fix if the problem is not a part of the 'core mechanics' or 'gameplay' of the game, or however other avenue you wish to frame the idea.
Too many cards in Redemption with horrible balancing issues. No appropriate cost system in place. Too many cards that say you can or cant do X. Draw abilities are beyond repair. A win condition heavily dependent upon your opponents draw. A 2 card completely nonrestrictive combo that rewards nearly half of the games win condition. A single game takes far too long than it should (you would think the opposite of a game that draws 3 times faster than normal CCGs). No best 2 of 3. No sideboard or similar function. Top cut after Swiss still not official.
Anything involving the current cards available can be fixed in a reboot. I don't believe that a cost system is really necessary, long as long playtesting is done more carefully, cards that are overpowered are banned (or changed, since in my dream world a reboot would be entirely online), and set rotation was implemented. The way Lost Souls currently function is obviously a huge problem, but that can be fixed by either having a much higher Lost Soul ratio in decks or Lost Souls simply start in the Land of Bondage (probably the latter).
I don't really have a problem with SoG/NJ in and of themselves. Yes, the two of them satisfy almost half the game's win condition in T1, but the game has been structured around that fact. As you point, many games last way too long even with them. On top of that, an obvious problem is that the existence of them essentially makes some level of speed a requirement in many decks. I think dominants are a game mechanic that needs to be eliminated anyway, so I think that problem will take care of itself. With a few rule tweaks (can't rescue on the first turn, play to 3, no SoG), the amount of time needed to play should go down immensely, which will then allow for best two out of three, sideboarding, etc. Top Cut is also more or less official at this point. Bany has become a huge believer in it, as have most of the Elders. At this point, I think it's safe to say that Top Cut is here to stay.
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Also, yeah, no dominants in the reboot. Or if you do make dominants, they're consistency cards like "Search your deck for an evil character" and they can only be played during your prep/discard phase.
Here's some ideas:
Son Of God: Regardless of protection, discard a demon or convert a human evil character to the brigade of your choice.
Angel Of The Lord: Place in territory for one turn. It becomes a multi-brigade 12/0 angel. (like doubt but for heroes)
New Jerusalem: Search all discard piles for NT heroes and shuffle them into owner deck
Glory Of The Lord: Remove an evil enhancement/ evil dominate/ or curse in play from the game.
Harvest Time: Search all decks for a lost soul and put it in play. Negate lost soul for one round.
Christian Martyr: Place in territory. When a hero is discarded, you may discard this card to remove hero from the game instead.
Burial: Place any card in play (except lost soul) under owner's deck
DON: keep it the same
Falling Away: Convert a hero to any evil brigade of your choice
Doubt: keep the same but change it to multi-brigade instead of just orange
Those are all of the dominates that I can think of right now.
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Here are some ideas for that:
Angel of the lord should also be protected from discard, so it isn't discarded by game rule, and because it is an angel, then it won't go to chamber, and limits targeting for cards against normal Angels
And instead of multibrigade for doubt or Angel of the lord, possibly chose 2-3 brigades of choice.
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Yeah, let's not go down a New Card Ideas path right now.
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Here are some ideas for that:
Angel of the lord should also be protected from discard, so it isn't discarded by game rule, and because it is an angel, then it won't go to chamber, and limits targeting for cards against normal angels.
A dominant could go in a chamber???
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Here are some ideas for that:
Angel of the lord should also be protected from discard, so it isn't discarded by game rule, and because it is an angel, then it won't go to chamber, and limits targeting for cards against normal angels.
A dominant could go in a chamber???
If it had an angel identifier, yes.
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Oh WOW! That would be awesome!
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Besides the obvious reasons (religion and such) why would someone want to play MTG or Pokémon more than redemption?
much larger player base, better access to cards and tournaments, cash prizes at tournaments, the ability to, if you're good enough (like really really good) live off of your winnings and make a career out of it.