Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on December 01, 2011, 09:08:55 PM
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Here's the backstory.
Earlier today, Matt was telling me how he feels like he doesn't matter in this community at all. Then just a bit ago he was stressing out about his deck. Red asked to see the decklist so he could help out... Here is what Matt said to me on AIM in response:
Matt
do people really think im that stupid
to give out my decklist and let it be used against me
Me
you mean Red wanting to see your deck?
he wants to help you -.-
Matt
or fix his own deck and kill me
Me
and you wonder why you dont feel welcome in this community.
people offer to help and you spit in their faces.
Matt
thats because no one truly wants to help
red has already said in past he thinks judges are better then kings
so thats proof he just wants it so he can prove hes better then me
i have to defend my property
I can understand not showing people decks just before a tournament, or if you have some ultra-strong secret combo... but neither one applies here. I'm not the only one who finds this to be overly defensive right? This is not the first time I've seen this lack of trust and aggressive attitude.
From my experiences here, people in this community are honest when they offer someone help. So, I'm asking you guys, is there anything you all can do to help Matt be more trusting around here?
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Well you can probably start by not posting what was a private conversation on a public forum. That tends to make me less trusting
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I had his permission.
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Well you can probably start by not posting what was a private conversation on a public forum. That tends to make me less trusting
Do you even play Redemption? Also I was trying to help. Not tech against his list.
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im just paranoid over sharing anything cause its always better if no one knows what your playing exactly it makes it easier to win by surprise. and if i have to see you at nats in tennesee then i could lose just because you remember every detail of my deck and play specifically play by play just to counter me.
[watch the language Matt]
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I had his permission.
In that case I withdraw my comment.
And Red your question is irrelevant, rather or not someone plays redemption has no effect on realizing that if someone had posted a private conversation on a public forum without the others consent it's a violation of trust and not a good way to start a "how do we get him to trust us?" post
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I've tried to tell him that what he believes about people isn't true, but he just doesn't seem to get it. I don't really know what else to try because words don't seem to be working.
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I was wondering seeing as you are on this forum and haven't posted anything Redemption related. But as a whole this is the most paranoid gaming community on the planet when it comes to revealing decklists and such.
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I was wondering seeing as you are on this forum and haven't posted anything Redemption related.
That is probably true, but I've sure appreciated his advice in my laptop thread :)
But as a whole this is the most paranoid gaming community on the planet when it comes to revealing decklists and such.
I disagree. All of the top 3 decks for the last several years of Nats are available for anyone to see and copy. On top of that, most of the top players also post decks during the year for people to learn from, and many of the beginning players post decks for advice (which many top players offer freely).
As for the first question as to how to make Matt feel more trusting of others, or less critical of himself as a person just because he sometimes loses Redemption games, I don't have any ideas. I think it is just a personal issue that Matt is going to have to pray about, because really it is going to take a significant internal change, and only God is capable of doing that in his life.
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yeah prof underwood makes a point but most of those lists that he refers to don't appear until after the major tourney season has ran its course and even the few that do appear before that are normally weaker versions with certain critical info withheld so that people can get the element of surprise i eluded to earlier. which is why im afraid sharing mine will hurt me more then help.
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(A) I don't think gabe and co hide anything when they do post those decks.
(B) you don't have to post them, but sharing it with a single person who wants to help you is a completely different thing.
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This applies to any CCG you will ever play.
Could the one person you show your deck to tech against it specifically to beat you? sure, if you assume a few things about that person.
1) They are a HUGE Jerk
2) They don't want to actually win the tournament just beat you
and you are also assuming that...
1) they will play you before they get eliminated, which would be a stretch
2) they play you at all. it's a national tournament if he's teching against you he's gonna be lucky to make it one or two rounds
all in all i think there;s about a .05% chance anyone is doing that right now. now if you win nats a couple years in a row then yeah people are gonna start teching against you, they are also going to start copying you
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Your first two points are valid, however, since Redemption doesn't run elimination style tournaments at the higher levels your last two points aren't actually applicable to this situation.
Matt,
You and I have had plenty of conversations about this in the past, and I can't really do much more than to echo what Prof U is saying.
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Your first two points are valid, however, since Redemption doesn't run elimination style tournaments at the higher levels your last two points aren't actually applicable to this situation.
Matt,
You and I have had plenty of conversations about this in the past, and I can't really do much more than to echo what Prof U is saying.
if he's assuming he's winning Nats if people don't see his deck before hand, than change eliminated to gets moved down the order.
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I think these guys are making some good points as well.
Gabe could post his Nats deck the week before Nats, and still win Nats. He is just that good at not making mistakes, and his decks are just that well built.
Matt, I love you as a Christian brother, but you can keep your deck top secret until Nats, and you still won't win Nats (baring extreme providence on God's part). You just aren't quite up to that level yet. Neither am I for that matter. So at this point, sharing your deck is only going to help you. You'll get some good advice that will probably improve your chances of winning (especially at smaller level tournaments).
And no one is going to tech against your deck at Nats, because the people who are going to be at the top 10 in Nats won't expect you to be there. If you are there, then they won't expect to have to play an "anti-Matt" deck to beat your regular deck. There's just really no downside here. (Again the same could be said for me).
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and the underlaying question why am i not at the level BECAUSE I DON'T PLAY SPEED AND STAND ALONE thats what your answer is and thats exactly the attitude i intend to remove from this game with my deck.
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Skill level has nothing to do with the makeup of the deck. I can play with some of the best put together decks of my friends and I will not do well with them because I have no clue what I am doing or what I am supposed to be doing.
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I've tried to win Nats with an unorthodox deck, too. It's just not possible at this point. The time limits on games makes it impossible to consistently finish games there unless you are playing heavy offense or at least balanced.
You can keep trying to tilt at windmills, but you're only going to frustrate yourself. And with your penchant for judging your self-worth based on your success in Redemption, I really don't think it is a healthy plan for you my friend.
And Katedid is also correct that skill level comes into it as well. Even if your deck was as good as Gabe's, you would still not win Nats. You (and I) make mistakes more often than he does, and you also have a tendency to get emotional sometimes during games. When that happens you are even more likely to make a costly mistake. Until these things change, you will not be able to get to the top level of Redemption players.
However, the fact that you (and I) are not at the top level of Redemption players doesn't AT ALL mean that you aren't an amazing person, and a child of God. You are worth the death of God, and that is infinitely more important than anything that you ever do or don't do with pieces of cardboard.
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Matt,
If you feel like your deck has the ability to beat the fairly standard meta of fast offenses and stand alone defenses, you're going to need a ton of testing - You freely admit that you're not at Gabe, or Tim's level, so again, like Mark says you really have nothing to lose by sharing your deck. For all you know the base idea will be taken and improved upon by the community at large and speed will actually be stopped.
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ok a my deck is not the super slow fish that you seem to indicate but you have yet to play me this year mark so ill excuse that oversight and b fix the darn time limits then give us 60 minutes for t12p if your truly an elder then argue to help us
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hmm you may have a point john but id rather it done thru private discussion with me and maybe yourself on aim or skype ill talk but i won't go as far as a public post and as far as the red situation hes getting there and hes a rising star but at this point i need a tested vet
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and the underlaying question why am i not at the level BECAUSE I DON'T PLAY SPEED AND STAND ALONE thats what your answer is and thats exactly the attitude i intend to remove from this game with my deck.
if you know that people don't take none speed/standalone decks seriously, then why do you think they would take yours seriously enough to tech against it in the first place...
you want them to change the rules to conform to the deck you want to play otherwise he's not truly doing whats best for the game and it's players?
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not exactly apple your kinda coming in new to a 5 year old debate
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let me see if i can guestimate this.
Games were running too long so they added a time limit (since it's not an hour, i'm guessing either 45 min or 30)
A lot of games started timing out, encouraging people to build faster decks.
People realized speed decks were awesomesauce and everyone who wanted to compete started playing them
Now you want to build a non speed deck because you're unhappy with the current achetype, however you realize that your deck has at least an elevated risk of timing out.
Even though the time limit only comes in to play in (and again I'm guessing here) a very small number of games, you want them to change the rule to accomodate the very few players that run in to the issue.
I still don't get it.
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It's more like:
People realized drawing cards wins game.
People yell at speed players, claiming they have no skill
People try to win games, so they play speed.
Pol claims that balanced decks are good
Speed wins nats and every other major tournament
Repeat every year.
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It's more like:
People realized drawing cards wins game.
People try to win games.
Pol claims that balanced decks are good
Speed wins nats and every other major tournament
Repeat every year.
speed will always dominate any CCG it's just common sense. your deck is full of really awesome cards, too bad they are on the bottom and you'll loose before you draw them. of course you could draw more cards...
..........that is not trolling.........
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this whole thread started out as a friends call to help you.
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speed has strategy. you still have to decide when to use your cards and when to save them for later. it's just fast paced.
caps lock..ugh
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Matt either A, listen to some sound advice and accept some help or B, stop threatening to leave the game, its overly dramatic and unneccesary. I take big losses but I learn from them. Learn from what happens and bounce back. It takes a bigger man to humble himself. Life is so much bigger than that!
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WRONG SPEED HAS HI LETS PLAY 123 SOG/NJ GG CYA NEXT WEEK THATS ALL SPEED IS AND ALL THE GAME CAN EVER BE UNTIL IT IS FIXED GAMES WILL NEVER SEE MORE THEN 5 TURNS
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i prefer my discussions to be caps lock free, and rational. soooo piece out girl scouts
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WRONG SPEED HAS HI LETS PLAY 123 SOG/NJ GG CYA NEXT WEEK THATS ALL SPEED IS AND ALL THE GAME CAN EVER BE UNTIL IT IS FIXED GAMES WILL NEVER SEE MORE THEN 5 TURNS
I personally don't like speed decks either, I like balanced decks, but the game has evolved and personally I don't think completely for the best, but it is what it is. If you don't like the game, maybe check out pokemon??
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I played a disciples speed once for a half and hour. just block the draw ability
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I played a disciples speed once for a half and hour. just block the draw ability
I agree and Matt that's what I told you last night... don't know what else to tell you bro!
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your never given a chance kate thats the point
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speed is a 123 sog/nj i win ive only taken my 3 turns and you have had 2 in which you can do absolutley not enough therefore game over in 5 turns cya next time
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speed is a 123 sog/nj i win ive only taken my 3 turns and you have had 2 in which you can do absolutley not enough therefore game over in 5 turns cya next time
Try a Job deck
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In the end only you really get to decide whether you can play at a top level or not so don't worry about what others think. But if you don't think you are there yet don't complain about it get just there, yet know that it is just a game. :)
FWIW Matt is right about speed dominating type 1 and needing some hard counters. That is why I play type 2 now.
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AND SO A 5 TURN GAME BETWEEN BOTH PLAYERS IS FAIR 123 SOG/NJ IS TRULY A FAIR GAME THATS WHAT TOP LVL IS AND YOUR SAYING YOUR OK IN ACCEPTING THAT IF THATS THE CASE THEN T1 ONLY NEEDS 10 MINUTE ROUND LIMITS CAUSE THATS HOW LONG IT TAKES TO WIN
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AND SO A 5 TURN GAME BETWEEN BOTH PLAYERS IS FAIR 123 SOG/NJ IS TRULY A FAIR GAME THATS WHAT TOP LVL IS AND YOUR SAYING YOUR OK IN ACCEPTING THAT IF THATS THE CASE THEN T1 ONLY NEEDS 10 MINUTE ROUND LIMITS CAUSE THATS HOW LONG IT TAKES TO WIN
I say try a Defense laden Job deck
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AND SO A 5 TURN GAME BETWEEN BOTH PLAYERS IS FAIR 123 SOG/NJ IS TRULY A FAIR GAME THATS WHAT TOP LVL IS AND YOUR SAYING YOUR OK IN ACCEPTING THAT IF THATS THE CASE THEN T1 ONLY NEEDS 10 MINUTE ROUND LIMITS CAUSE THATS HOW LONG IT TAKES TO WIN
I'm not a fan of speed either, but this is hyperbole. And please turn off your caps lock Matt, it's not polite on a forum to type in all caps. Also everyone please keep this from getting out of hand so I don't have to lock this thread.
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how when you only get 2 turns and every single play they make is cbn how does that help me huh
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then can you please get on skype or something mark cause i really need to talk and hamachi aint gonna do it
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then can you please get on skype or something mark cause i really need to talk and hamachi aint gonna do it
I don't have skype installed on this computer. If you really need to talk, then Hamachi should work fine.
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text is stupid i need voice but apparently thats too much of a problem
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WRONG SPEED HAS HI LETS PLAY 123 SOG/NJ GG CYA NEXT WEEK THATS ALL SPEED IS AND ALL THE GAME CAN EVER BE UNTIL IT IS FIXED GAMES WILL NEVER SEE MORE THEN 5 TURNS
I personally don't like speed decks either, I like balanced decks, but the game has evolved and personally I don't think completely for the best, but it is what it is. If you don't like the game, maybe check out pokemon??
You can speed pokemon, trust me. I can get a stage 3 evoluton by turn 4 (The first turn you can get it) most games.
AND SO A 5 TURN GAME BETWEEN BOTH PLAYERS IS FAIR 123 SOG/NJ IS TRULY A FAIR GAME THATS WHAT TOP LVL IS AND YOUR SAYING YOUR OK IN ACCEPTING THAT IF THATS THE CASE THEN T1 ONLY NEEDS 10 MINUTE ROUND LIMITS CAUSE THATS HOW LONG IT TAKES TO WIN
Matthew, your idea of what top level is isn't true, as I'm sure most everyone has told you on numerous occasions, it isn't all speed and speed isn't required to be a top player. I don't think many would argue Pol is a top player and he doesn't use speed. Top level is a skill level, not what deck you used. If it was I'd never ever win....Ever.
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text is stupid i need voice but apparently thats too much of a problem
As if Mark hasn't been trying to help you?
You're obviously bitter about the game. We all try to explain to you that everyone on here matters, everyone loses tournaments, and everyone learns from deck critique. Then you don't listen and just repeat yourself about how speed ruins the game and basically you want to be a redemption god. Let me tell you that every redemption champion has lost a bazillion tourneys and built the most screwy decks. And they've learned from their mistakes.
:2cents:
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If I may interject....
I see a more fundamental issue than issues related to the meta or mechanics of the game. I see a player who has often expressed himself in a self-deprecating way when he has become frustrated about the game, or his interactions with people on this forum. Matt, I have read multiple posts from others who have tried to dissuade you from this perspective, and remind you of your worth to this community, and more importantly, your worth to God. Unfortunately, I see you having a great deal of difficulty accepting this.
I have been a counselor for a number of years, and want to offer my perspective without trying to sound uncaring. I think you would benefit from some personal counseling, preferably from a Christian, to help you change this. I am worried that as others try to "prop you up" when you put yourself down they will continue to be frustrated and pull away, causing you to feel even less valued. The problem is that everybody's well-meaning attempts to prop you up are actually causing the problem to root itself in you, as you now know that you receive validation from others by continuing to put yourself down....this is not emotionally healthy. Please understand, I am not saying that people should stop encouraging you...but I see people trying to do this repeatedly, and in great earnest, as if they are trying to convince you. Some temperance of this may be more helpful.
Matt, if you cannot see your worth in God and appreciate the fellowship and efforts of those around you to express this, please consider getting some help from a professional, as I suspect there may be an issue or issues deeper than those expressed here, that you may or may not be aware of. Consider carefully whether continuing to play Redemption will further your personal growth or be a hindrance to it. I will pray that you have courage to ask God to show you where He wants you to be and how to get there.
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Haven't we been down this road before?
Sept 7, 2011, Thread titled "Yet another leave of absence"
Here is what I said after you discounted pages and pages of encouragement:
"Other members, I beg you to show Matt that this is not the case. This is one of the biggest issues that causes Matt to feel angry, unwanted, and just depressed." (quote from Lam Diablo)
OK, I can't be silent about this anymore. The biggest reason that this person feels angry, unwanted and depressed is HIMSELF. I gave this person my full support and encouragement on the first page of this thread, reminding him that Jesus died for him so his value to God and to us is beyond measure. For SIX PAGES now others have done the same. Now compare the OP's recent threads to what he said at the beginning. Where is the growth? We are told by him that we make good points, he admits to his faults, and he then goes on to whine some more. (I know that's harsh, but I don't know what else to call it after 6 pages of unheeded encouragement.) Angry, unwanted and depressed because of Redemption?! This is why I advised from the beginning that he stop playing. He seems unable to enjoy the game without lamenting over what others think about him and accusing the winners of using "cheap" tactics.
I tried the "warm fuzzy" approach and it fell on deaf ears. Time for some "tough love" and straight talk, in my humble opinion."
(And I agree that counseling is a very good idea at this point. You are in my prayers.)
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Yeah bro, besides, there is a player in South Florida that wins every single game with a lost soul manipulation deck. He never loses. Ever. He plays 3-4 different opponents, different decks, speed decks, and still wins. Every Time. It's definitely possible to beat speed decks 10/10 times. You just gotta find the secret recipe, and know how to use it.
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I have one of those decks I hope to use if I can find some players :)
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there is a player in South Florida that wins every single game with a lost soul manipulation deck.
Anyone who wins "every single game" is NOT playing the top competition. I'd challenge this player to join ROOT and compete against some of the other top players in the country and see whether they can continue to win "every single game".
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Florida has some wonky meta. I'd love to see you guys on ROOT to see how your out-of-the-box thinking works against the top decks.
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Florida has some wonky meta. I'd love to see you guys on ROOT to see how your out-of-the-box thinking works against the top decks.
Would it be mean to say it doesn't/won't?
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Would it be mean to say it doesn't/won't?
Not so much mean, as just prejudiced. I wouldn't count it out until I've seen it in action. I'm skeptical, but definitely not confidant enough to say that it won't.
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We have seen it in action, we just haven't seen that particular player play it. Unless you are willing to posit that said player is much better than virtually every other Redemption player, I feel confident in counting it out on a national scale.
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Matt,
I think that everyone is trying to help you here. I'm not trying to put you down or anything by suggesting you try another game. I was just trying to point out that if not being successful at a card game helps perpetuate your negative self-image, it may be better to reevaluate your involvement in the game. Matt, you are a good person and have more worth than you can see in yourself right now. Take some time and pray about what is best for you and look into talking with a pastor and/or counselor to help you overcome these challenges you are facing. Its frustrating on our end because we do care about you as much as one can, but you need to care about yourself. Jesus said, "to love your neighbor as you love yourself" you can't love your neighbor unless you love yourself first. I'm just trying to help. I hope this post does.
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We have seen it in action, we just haven't seen that particular player play it. Unless you are willing to posit that said player is much better than virtually every other Redemption player, I feel confident in counting it out on a national scale.
I clearly said that he only gets to play 3-4 players. He's not that enthusiastic about redemption, but he is a very good player. (he is also very intelligent.)... He did say however he might attend Nats if it was in tenessee 0r florida this year.
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I only read the first and last pages of this thread, but my input on the few topics mentioned:
1) Giving someone your decklist, all in all, isn't going to matter.
--- Being someone that has had deck strategies copied over and over again, as well as directly countered, it all in all does not matter. If the other player is going to build a deck simply to counter yours, then he's not a threat to the ranking in the first place. If he beats you, fair enough. Odds are he won't beat the others, while you very well can.
--- If a player is honestly going to use your decklist against you... He's not a good player. A good player builds a deck that is prepared for any situation and isn't stopped in the dust by another deck.
2) The majority of people on these boards will help you with whatever you need.
--- Though we cannot read your mind. If you want/need help, ask for it. There is no shame at all in messaging someone to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why can't I win with this deck?" When I switched over to Type-2 for the first time, the guys from Georgia (especially Tyler Stevens) helped me with my deck building skills that I STILL use today. I played in their tournaments occasionally, yet they still helped me get better and thus become more of a challenge for them. Most of us on here don't JUST care about winning. I personally love a game that is down to the wire, a nail biter, and simply challenging.
3) Florida has wack metagame?
--- Say whaaaaaat? Since when is the Southeast capable of coming up with (or perfecting) crazy new ways to play? (I'm looking at you Clift... SitC<3 )
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Haha you could say our "meta-game" is a little "strange" ;). No 2 decks are the same. Perhaps the mechanics are similar, but we try to keep diversity amoung the group.
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Florida has some wonky meta. I'd love to see you guys on ROOT to see how your out-of-the-box thinking works against the top decks.
Yes, yes we do. I may or may not be completely proud of this.
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Florida has some wonky meta. I'd love to see you guys on ROOT to see how your out-of-the-box thinking works against the top decks.
Yes, yes we do. I may or may not be completely proud of this.
I, for one, am proud of this. Bottom line is that we have more fun in the sun here in Florida. No cookie-cutter decks, no TGT, no speed..... just diversified fun! ;D
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By request of Matt, I would like to add some pretty important information to this thread.
I have been talking to him today about a major aspect of his attitude. I've noticed he tends to see people here as "players" rather than people. He said he has noticed he tends to view people as part of the hobby he associates them with, rather than individuals who happen to share an interest with him. I told him that I felt this social distance he creates is only hurting his relationships with people outside of his "inner circle" of friends.
I then tried to figure out why this happens. He told me that a close friend majorly betrayed him in front an entire class in high school (not going into details here), and then within the same year his father died. He said this whole chain of events shattered his ability to trust and/or get close to people. I had known about his father dying, but this other story was new to me... and it helped explain a lot more about his behaviors. I know the effects that rapid fire tragedies and embarrassments can have on people, especially at that age.
I asked him to discuss this stuff with his counselor next time, but I ask that you all please consider this when you talk to Matt, and help him deal with this issue if you can.
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Praying for you Matt.
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Praying for you Matt.
Ditto. I think that this is the best option currently.
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Not sure what to say... Praying is probably the best option. But we're
still here if you need
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If you are interested in helping Matt, please read this post.
I have long thought that Matt needed to be actively reading God's Word and seeking to more fully understand the LORD's love for us and how we are to live in spite of that. For years I have encouraged and prayed for Matt to read his Bible.
In the past 3 weeks, Matt has started to read his Bible some, as a result of the Holy Spirit prompting me to ask Matt to do so. Bible reading has not been a regular part of his life. He has started reading Luke per my suggestion, as I felt led to recommend that Gospel as it really emphasizes the love that Jesus has for us. Matt and I have had 4 different discussions about the chapters he is reading over Skype in the past several weeks, with each conversation spanning over an hour. I can tell that Matt is learning from these times of Bible discussion. Matt has openly admitted some of his weaknesses that he has recognized as a result of discussing Scripture and we have been praying together that Matt would change.
During these weeks I have been praying almost every day for Matt and for God to reveal His love to Matt and to change Matt. I am 100% convinced now that Matt's growth in his understanding of the Bible and how we are to live as believers is paramount to him moving past this juncture in life that he is at.
There are two specific ways I am asking for help from you as the body of Christ.
1. Please join me in praying as I am for him.
2. Matt hasn't had believers take the time to discuss Scripture with him before now. I think we ought to do our part to spur him on to good works.
The reality is that I don't have an hour of time every day to spend discussing the Bible with Matt. I will be continuing to discuss Scripture with him on a weekly basis. It would really be a blessing for Matt (as well as myself) to see others of you as believers that are willing to spend an hour once every week or two discussing a chapter from the Bible with Matt over Skype, phone, etc. So my challenge is for at least a couple of you to step up and make such a commitment to discussing the Bible with Matt on a weekly or bi-weekly basis.
God bless,
Kirk