Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Chronic Apathy on October 31, 2011, 12:22:59 PM
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How do people feel about the +1/-1 system here on the forums? Do you think it's a good idea? I'm, obviously, not asking in any kind of official capacity, I'm just curious about what people think. Personally, I think it's very hit and miss. I like the functionality of the +1's. It helps keep the ruling threads a little smaller, since sometimes people can just +1 a correct answer instead of the "I agree" smiley in a separate post. Additionally, it's just a nice little bonus for a witty or otherwise insightful post, and allows people to support a viewpoint without necessarily having to make a post to state the same thing somebody else did. If I could make one change to this portion of the system, I would allow people to see the screen names of those who have given a +1 to a post (and only a +1, not a -1). Conversely, I think I would remove -1 altogether. I've seen a few isolated incidents where it's been abused, and I've never seen it be used in a manner where I thought, "boy, I'm glad we have that!" I think it risks offending people, and in general just doesn't contribute anything to the site.
Thoughts?
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Personally, I don't use the '-1' and only use the '+ 1' for players that admit to playing ANB. ;)
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I play ANB. And don't like the ratings...
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It's a decent system. I'd rather have this one than nothing at all. Plus ones are nice to give out to someone who says something particularly profound or funny. (Sometimes both). I only minus one to someone being particularly offensive or arrogant.
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1. ^ I agree
2. I dont understand why people dont use ANB
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Honestly I liked encouragement better. ;)
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Honestly I liked encouragement better. ;)
Yeah, then no one got angry about -1's.
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The only reason I could see for removing -1 is that it makes it easy to see how many people mad when you're going for the lulz. I've seen some posts with like -5 where I know for the fact the poster is quite proud of that fact. Other than that the system works.
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I'm totally arbitrary in my +-'s to confuse people.
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I'm totally arbitrary in my +-'s to confuse people.
In accordance with that, I both +'d and -'d that post AT THE SAME TIME.
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If we are truly supposed to be encouraging one another, then I don't see why -1 exists at all. It is discouraging when it happens and you have no idea what you've done wrong, said wrong, said that was offensive, etc. You simply have no idea, and the person adding the -1 is totally anonymous and does not have to explain their actions (even to a built in admin system). It's like people being able to flag your Craigslist ad and take it down for no reason, and with no repurcussions. I furthermore think -1 is a cowardly way to say that you don't agree with what is being said, but you're not brave enough to engage in the conversation yourself and let your own ideas be open to debate/scrutiny.
Finally, the whole +1/-1 system can create situations where weaker people "pile on" to whichever side seems to be winning the +/- war, like voting for or against a candidate just because everyone else is.
But these are just my thoughts. FYI that I'm also a member of two other sites/forums, one for board games and one for an MMO, and I don't believe that either of those sites for SECULAR games have the ability to -1 a post. But I'll research this further and confirm.
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I'm bumping this up with an additional thought. A few weeks ago, there was a conversation over in the shout box, with Gabe not realizing that regular members couldn't see who had posted +1/-1, and could only see the numbers. Do people think this system is more likely to not be abused or overly used if the system wasn't largely anonymous?
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I think there are enough mods that are consistently active to see if the system is being abused (at least to a great extent). If some members are able to see that others -1 them on a regular basis, they might get mad and hate on the voter, even if the -1's are legitimate.
In fact, that has already happened at least once with a mod 8).
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Is it possible to see which users +/- 1 to another, if so, i would like it activated. ( it can also be used to see who is abusing the +/-)
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Is it possible to see which users +/- 1 to another, if so, i would like it activated. ( it can also be used to see who is abusing the +/-)
While it is possible, currently only mods can do it. Like Sauce said, if there's an abuse, we'll see it. (and if you think we missed it, PM one of us, and we can check it out)
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I believe that if we keep -1 (which I hope that we don't), each of us should be able to see who added a minus 1. Do the same for + 1 if you like. Right now only certain people can see who puts a -1 on their posts, and some have a tendency to use that information in an unhealthy way. -1 is a mistake, in my opinion, to have in a forum of Christians that should be encouraging each other, and frankly while it exists it is too tempting for me (and others) to use it on a post I disagree with rather than take the time to issue a response. I have said this before, but I'll say it again. I post at two other sites, one for board games, and one for an MMO, and NEITHER of those sites have the option to -1 a person's posts. It has always seemed very strange that we insist on having it here of all places.
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I believe that if we keep -1 (which I hope that we don't), each of us should be able to see who added a minus 1. Do the same for + 1 if you like. Right now only certain people can see who puts a -1 on their posts, and some have a tendency to use that information in an unhealthy way. -1 is a mistake, in my opinion, to have in a forum of Christians that should be encouraging each other, and frankly while it exists it is too tempting for me (and others) to use it on a post I disagree with rather than take the time to issue a response. I have said this before, but I'll say it again. I post at two other sites, one for board games, and one for an MMO, and NEITHER of those sites have the option to -1 a person's posts. It has always seemed very strange that we insist on having it here of all places.
People do have the right to disagree with someone without getting into a long and involved debate that leads nowhere with no changed minds. A -1 allows for this right in such instances. It is not a slight on anyone. I use it all the time...it is not a personal attack, but my way of disagreeing without getting involved either emotionally or in a time-consuming way. Additionally, as a mod, I keep track of who - or + if the number is more than 2 either way. It is not abused for the most part nor is it some unholy/unChristian attack either. Now I have posted in response to your "2nd" disagreement but wasted 15 minutes of my time when a -1 could have done just as well. Why? Because you have not changed your mind about them despite my logical response. It's a preference and not that big of a deal.
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I believe that if we keep -1 (which I hope that we don't), each of us should be able to see who added a minus 1. Do the same for + 1 if you like. Right now only certain people can see who puts a -1 on their posts, and some have a tendency to use that information in an unhealthy way. -1 is a mistake, in my opinion, to have in a forum of Christians that should be encouraging each other, and frankly while it exists it is too tempting for me (and others) to use it on a post I disagree with rather than take the time to issue a response. I have said this before, but I'll say it again. I post at two other sites, one for board games, and one for an MMO, and NEITHER of those sites have the option to -1 a person's posts. It has always seemed very strange that we insist on having it here of all places.
People do have the right to disagree with someone without getting into a long and involved debate that leads nowhere with no changed minds. A -1 allows for this right in such instances. It is not a slight on anyone. I use it all the time...it is not a personal attack, but my way of disagreeing without getting involved either emotionally or in a time-consuming way. Additionally, as a mod, I keep track of who - or + if the number is more than 2 either way. It is not abused for the most part nor is it some unholy/unChristian attack either. Now I have posted in response to your "2nd" disagreement but wasted 15 minutes of my time when a -1 could have done just as well. Why? Because you have not changed your mind about them despite my logical response. It's a preference and not that big of a deal.
The thing is though, this is a discussion forum. It's made for discussion. There are indeed some instances where I can see a -1 without anything else being necessary, however, the majority of the time, if you're not willing to put forth the effort to explain why you disagree, I'd argue you should just keep your opinion to yourself, even if that opinion is only expressed in that number.
I am a part of the 99% who can't see who -1/+1'd my posts, and I am going to occupy this topic.
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I believe that if we keep -1 (which I hope that we don't), each of us should be able to see who added a minus 1. Do the same for + 1 if you like. Right now only certain people can see who puts a -1 on their posts, and some have a tendency to use that information in an unhealthy way. -1 is a mistake, in my opinion, to have in a forum of Christians that should be encouraging each other, and frankly while it exists it is too tempting for me (and others) to use it on a post I disagree with rather than take the time to issue a response. I have said this before, but I'll say it again. I post at two other sites, one for board games, and one for an MMO, and NEITHER of those sites have the option to -1 a person's posts. It has always seemed very strange that we insist on having it here of all places.
People do have the right to disagree with someone without getting into a long and involved debate that leads nowhere with no changed minds. A -1 allows for this right in such instances. It is not a slight on anyone. I use it all the time...it is not a personal attack, but my way of disagreeing without getting involved either emotionally or in a time-consuming way. Additionally, as a mod, I keep track of who - or + if the number is more than 2 either way. It is not abused for the most part nor is it some unholy/unChristian attack either. Now I have posted in response to your "2nd" disagreement but wasted 15 minutes of my time when a -1 could have done just as well. Why? Because you have not changed your mind about them despite my logical response. It's a preference and not that big of a deal.
The thing is though, this is a discussion forum. It's made for discussion. There are indeed some instances where I can see a -1 without anything else being necessary, however, the majority of the time, if you're not willing to put forth the effort to explain why you disagree, I'd argue you should just keep your opinion to yourself, even if that opinion is only expressed in that number.
I am a part of the 99% who can't see who -1/+1'd my posts, and I am going to occupy this topic.
I'm part of the 1%, and I think you should get off my lawn.
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I believe that if we keep -1 (which I hope that we don't), each of us should be able to see who added a minus 1. Do the same for + 1 if you like. Right now only certain people can see who puts a -1 on their posts, and some have a tendency to use that information in an unhealthy way. -1 is a mistake, in my opinion, to have in a forum of Christians that should be encouraging each other, and frankly while it exists it is too tempting for me (and others) to use it on a post I disagree with rather than take the time to issue a response. I have said this before, but I'll say it again. I post at two other sites, one for board games, and one for an MMO, and NEITHER of those sites have the option to -1 a person's posts. It has always seemed very strange that we insist on having it here of all places.
People do have the right to disagree with someone without getting into a long and involved debate that leads nowhere with no changed minds. A -1 allows for this right in such instances. It is not a slight on anyone. I use it all the time...it is not a personal attack, but my way of disagreeing without getting involved either emotionally or in a time-consuming way. Additionally, as a mod, I keep track of who - or + if the number is more than 2 either way. It is not abused for the most part nor is it some unholy/unChristian attack either. Now I have posted in response to your "2nd" disagreement but wasted 15 minutes of my time when a -1 could have done just as well. Why? Because you have not changed your mind about them despite my logical response. It's a preference and not that big of a deal.
The thing is though, this is a discussion forum. It's made for discussion. There are indeed some instances where I can see a -1 without anything else being necessary, however, the majority of the time, if you're not willing to put forth the effort to explain why you disagree, I'd argue you should just keep your opinion to yourself, even if that opinion is only expressed in that number.
I am a part of the 99% who can't see who -1/+1'd my posts, and I am going to occupy this topic.
I'm part of the 1%, and I think you should get off my lawn.
You forgot to tell him to get a job in the economy you ruined
#continuing the joke, not trying to start a political debate.
#LET ME BACK IN OPEN DISCUSSION!!!
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#LET ME BACK IN OPEN DISCUSSION!!!
First, you have to write lots of paragraphs proving only the most obscurest points of your opponent wrong. Then, you have to establish a reputation of doing so randomly. Don't side with any particular statement of belief, only yell at people who are "wrong." Finally, limit your entire communication on this forum to that and how the forum just got updated.
At least that's how I think you become admin. What were we talking about?
[I'm not sure if this belongs on a post at all as it borders on the funny criticism of those of us who are in charge (which is OK) and the mean-spirited slander of an individual (which is NOT OK).]
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also lol
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I thought the old system was much better, even though it may have been more work. Just my experience
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I thought the old system was much better, even though it may have been more work. Just my experience
You thought "Encouragement" worked better as a whole? If I may ask, what are your reasons for this?
/Unless he's referring to the system that was around before me. Same question.
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For one thing nobody abused it. :D
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I thought the old system was much better, even though it may have been more work. Just my experience
You thought "Encouragement" worked better as a whole? If I may ask, what are your reasons for this?
/Unless he's referring to the system that was around before me. Same question.
Sorry, I relinquish my opinion from this thread for no reason beyond- I'm not around enough to weigh in on these types of topics anymore. You, active members, should be the ones posting your thoughts here :)
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I just -1 any post that isn't funny or specifically praising me. That makes it all fair.
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I just -1 any post that isn't funny or specifically praising me. That makes it all fair.
Works for me! ;)
And to think, in all those letters above if you had just included a 'b' I would have plus-1'd it. ;D
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come on now who -1's a blatant joke?
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come on now who -1's a blatant joke?
One man's good humor is another man's popsicle. Guess which one gets licked in a contest?
;)
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come on now who -1's a blatant joke?
It wasn't funny or specifically praising you, I was just following instructions. ::)
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come on now who -1's a blatant joke?
It wasn't funny or specifically praising you, I was just following instructions. ::)
*sigh* plus one
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I don't mind the -1's in this system at all. As said, we're allowed to disagree with things people say, and this is just a way of doing that without posting.
I'm also fine either way with people being able to see who voted or not, though if I had to pick, I think it'd be nice if everyone could see who is voting their posts.
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I don't mind the -1's in this system at all. As said, we're allowed to disagree with things people say, and this is just a way of doing that without posting.
I'm also fine either way with people being able to see who voted or not, though if I had to pick, I think it'd be nice if everyone could see who is voting their posts.
-1 is does Not in any way add to a accepting/Happy Environment, But neither does restricting someones ability to disagree.
Being able to Disagree with anonymity allows for more bold and Ab- Use and may to lead the allusion that since a large number of -1's was received that everyone Hates Him/Her/His Ideas/Her Ideas, then again If you are Old enough to be part of this forum you are probably wise enough to know otherwise.
My Opinion: Do Not Remove the -1 option, but Activate that ability to See who -/+'d You. It's the best option.
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terrible idea to let people know who -1. eliminates the point of -1, to disagree without causing an argument all the time
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terrible idea to let people know who -1. eliminates the point of -1, to disagree without causing an argument all the time
How? If You Disagree, Wish to Reveal Yourself, (by -/+)you should have a Reason and Should state it. If You Don't have a reason to disagree(which the current system allows),Don't. and who said the Resulting Conversations would be arguments? People on here can hold a Civil,Polite Debate which is more than I can say for some Boards
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My argument is simple: If mods are allowed to see who uses the +1/-1 option, regular members should be able to as well. There are a few mods like Wraith or RTSmaniac who have boards that don't ever require moderation but are still granted the ability to see who can +1/-1 a post. That seems pretty unfair, in my opinion. I'd be more okay with this if they could only see that in their own forums.
I also agree that if someone wants to disagree with what someone has said, they should have to own up to that. If people are being petty about it, then that's another issue altogether. In the meantime though, -1 without explanation doesn't encourage discussion, it just encourages anger and it encourages people not to post anything that isn't "JESUS IS AWESOME" or some other widely-held belief here on the forums.
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My argument is simple: If mods are allowed to see who uses the +1/-1 option, regular members should be able to as well. There are a few mods like Wraith or RTSmaniac who have boards that don't ever require moderation but are still granted the ability to see who can +1/-1 a post. That seems pretty unfair, in my opinion. I'd be more okay with this if they could only see that in their own forums.
I also agree that if someone wants to disagree with what someone has said, they should have to own up to that. If people are being petty about it, then that's another issue altogether. In the meantime though, -1 without explanation doesn't encourage discussion, it just encourages anger and it encourages people not to post anything that isn't "JESUS IS AWESOME" or some other widely-held belief here on the forums.
1+(The Warrior)
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How? If You Disagree, Wish to Reveal Yourself, (by -/+)you should have a Reason and Should state it. If You Don't have a reason to disagree(which the current system allows),Don't. and who said the Resulting Conversations would be arguments? SOME People on here can hold a Civil,Polite Debate which is more than I can say for some Boards
FTFY
Just because some member can handle polite distention doesn't mean they all can. I don't know what boards you frequent but this is one of the most confrontation message boards I visit on a regular basis.
Does anyone arguing against the minus one for reasons of abuse actually have any proof that it's being abused? I've never seen a post with more then a -5 and that was in a thread with about 30 separate people commenting so that's 1/6th of the thread disagreeing, that's hardly abuse.
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A strict definition of "abuse" would need to be clarified. I define abuse of the -1 as using it without any kind of follow-up comment, assuming nobody else has already posted what you would say, verbatim. Being able to see the ratings would clear up a lot of confusion there, because if I see that X member has disliked my post, but liked a post that was in direct contest to mine, I'm going to understand what that person meant. If I just see five random -5 on my post, especially if nobody bothers to clarify why that is, I'm going to be confused, unless I made a bad pun or something.
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The bad pun was the one -5 I say :P I don't think it was yours though.
That works fine until people disagree consistently. If you disagree with a lot of my opinions, that;s fine with me and as someone who doesn't really care about that kind of thing that won't affect me, but we know there are people on these boards that take things personally, and if you just happen to disagree with 3 of there posts in a row (which is extremely likely in a ruling thread where people are often unwilling to give up their position) suddenly it goes from "I disagree" to that guy is minus 1ing everything I post! Overreact, fight, game, set match.
The mods are responsible for making sure the system isn't abused. They do their jobs just fine.
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To be fair though, that sounds a lot more like a symptom of a bigger problem, which it is. I simply see no reason that say, SomeKittens can see who has liked or disliked his post here on Off-Topic, when it has nothing to do with his moderation abilities.
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Part of being a mod is keeping order on the boards. People abusing the +/- system is disrupting order. Kittens will handle it, we can all move on without ever causing a larger conflict.
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Kittens can't handle it, because he doesn't have any authority here in Off-Topic, only uthminister
and the global mods/administrators do.
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He can PM the people involved, without making it a public thing. And maybe the system doesn't support allowing mods to only view the ratings on boards they mod? Did you ever think of that?
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I did, and if that's the case, then I'm less worried about that particular aspect of my argument. I still think the general community should be allowed to see who likes or dislikes posts, or at the very least their own posts.
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When a moderator publicly calls out another member for giving them a -1, I think we have a problem. Either moderators should not be able to see a -1 themself, or everyone should be able to see who gives them a -1, or maybe that person should just not be a moderator anymore. It's not so much that the system is flawed. It's that people (including myself of course) are flawed, and we sometimes allow our character flaws to influence our behavior.
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So your solution is to give the power to call each other out and increase these instances.....
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I've never actually seen anyone call someone else out for disliking a post, though I have once or twice angrily requested that those who did dislike my post(s) explain why (this was in one of the debate threads, though I can't recall which one right now).
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And if the system were public you would then be able to call them out by name which can easily be misconstrued as personal attacks.
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And if the system were public you would then be able to call them out by name which can easily be misconstrued as personal attacks.
I disagree. I actually go to great lengths to avoid having my statements that question another member be misconstrued as personal attacks (most of the time - I'm only human :angel:). Look at my recent exchange with YMT as an example of that. Regardless, if we haven't seen that thus far, I don't believe there's a reason to assume we will see it if this was made public. If we do, by more than a handful of predictable members, then they can by all means put the current system back in place.
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But Pol (or maybe it was alex? I know it was a name i see alot) misconstrued YMT's statement. Not everyone on the board is the same, people react differently.
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I think that the argument that "all users should see it because mods can see it" doesn't make any sense. The whole idea of mods (or elders for that matter) is that certain groups of people have additional powers and additional responsibilities (thanks Uncle Ben).
However, I also think that it would be better for communication for all people to see who votes their posts up or down. I agree that it is the type of thing that would be worth trying for a bit, and see if it leads to huge personal issues or not. If not, then we keep it. If so, then we have a good reason in the future to tell people why they can't see who voted their post down :)
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I think that the argument that "all users should see it because mods can see it" doesn't make any sense. The whole idea of mods (or elders for that matter) is that certain groups of people have additional powers and additional responsibilities (thanks Uncle Ben).
I agree with that statement for people like you, who are global mods and as such, have authority that extends to the entire forum. As I mentioned earlier, SomeKittens' responsibilities only extend to his specific forums, and as such, the vast majority of his powers only extend to those forums as well (unless he technically has them everywhere and is just not allowed to use them, though I doubt this is the case). I see no reason for this particular ability (again, unless there's no way to restrict that) to extend beyond his own forums.
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But when people can see what I minus, people are going to realize that I minus the same three people virtually every post because I disagree with almost every aspect of their being.
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...because I disagree with almost every aspect of their being.
Very dangerous statement considering "being" could be a noun or a verb. :-\
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But when people can see what I minus, people are going to realize that I minus the same three people virtually every post because I disagree with almost every aspect of their being.
Look, I know you don't like me, but can't we be civil?
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But when people can see what I minus, people are going to realize that I minus the same three people virtually every post because I disagree with almost every aspect of their being.
I can't decide between:
a - Assuming you're totally joking
b - Asking if I'm one of those 3 people
c - Responding with some sort of encouragement to try to forgive your enemies and pray for those who persecute you :)
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Of course I'm the mod you guys pick on. Who else?
The thing that sticks out to me is that we haven't defined "abuse." There was a recent thread where one member who disagreed -1'd all the posts on that topic that weren't agreeing with him. (I could use a gender neutral pronoun, but this is the Redemption boards.) He never gave a solid reason for the -1's. Is this abuse? Is something like what Alex says abuse?
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I think abuse would just be if a group of people all got together and decided to -1 all the posts that someone made. Or if a group of 10 or more people got together and decided to -1 a specific post to force it to be hidden from the board (when it didn't deserve to be).
Otherwise, I don't care if a specific person -1s all my posts. I would just learn to ignore anything that didn't have at least a -2 on it. Realistically, I don't usually look at the voting on my posts to begin with.
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I'll bring this issue up on the other side of the board.
I have always wanted to say that. This post makes me much happier than it should.
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Of course I'm the mod you guys pick on. Who else?
The thing that sticks out to me is that we haven't defined "abuse." There was a recent thread where one member who disagreed -1'd all the posts on that topic that weren't agreeing with him. (I could use a gender neutral pronoun, but this is the Redemption boards.) He never gave a solid reason for the -1's. Is this abuse? Is something like what Alex says abuse?
We all know you're using "him" to protect Marti or Katie.
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Shoot, the only time I look at the +/- is to click the + for Pro-ANB posts (which by the way is the same as Pro-Life).
;)
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Of course I'm the mod you guys pick on. Who else?
The thing that sticks out to me is that we haven't defined "abuse." There was a recent thread where one member who disagreed -1'd all the posts on that topic that weren't agreeing with him. (I could use a gender neutral pronoun, but this is the Redemption boards.) He never gave a solid reason for the -1's. Is this abuse? Is something like what Alex says abuse?
We all know you're using "him" to protect Marti or Katie.
Yeah you got me. Im a real redemption boards trouble maker. Hey Im the person who was sooooo troublesome that I politely Pm'd a moderator to get on the open discussion :)
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Well, someone needs to replace Marti now that she's headed back to school.
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...she's going to school primarily online, and isn't even all that active to begin with. Kittens, were you even around when Open Discussion was created? Ah, those were the days...
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Speaking of Open Discussion.....
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...she's going to school primarily online, and isn't even all that active to begin with. Kittens, were you even around when Open Discussion was created? Ah, those were the days...
Yeah....I have been reading some of those old posts from like 2008...
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Primarily online doesn't mean she'll have anymore time that if she was going to school on Campus. My online classes were the most time consuming by far. Between two classes I wrote 28 essays last semester for the online classes.
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Primarily online doesn't mean she'll have anymore time that if she was going to school on Campus. My online classes were the most time consuming by far. Between two classes I wrote 28 essays last semester for the online classes.
Thats probably to replace the lack of class discussion participation aspect of a lecture
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We also had message boards we had to post to to fulfill the discussion Q's
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...she's going to school primarily online, and isn't even all that active to begin with. Kittens, were you even around when Open Discussion was created? Ah, those were the days...
Nope. I'm much more recent than everyone assumes. What'd I miss?
Also: Online is much more difficult than some think.
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I laugh when people tell me online classes; I was cyber-schooled.
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I laugh when people tell me online classes; I was cyber-schooled.
That sounds horribly boring
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I laugh when people tell me online classes; I was cyber-schooled.
Yeah, for High School. College is a different story.
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College is easysauce.
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College is easysauce.
Psh. Someone's a liberal arts major.
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College is easysauce.
Try taking four graphic design classes in the same semester, then we'll talk. :P
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College is easysauce.
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STEM field at a top 10 school? Not easy.
Otherwise, easy.
BRB, MIT is calling and begging me to go there.
<3 <3 <3 <3
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While we Derail, How about we talk about wookies?
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While I admit I do enjoy the ability, I still stick to my original position.
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threads like this are usually only seen by users and Don't usually have any impact. :P
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Good point. I mostly wanted to post and reaffirm my position that I don't believe mods need to see likes and dislikes outside of forums they're in charge of (unless regular members can see likes and dislikes as well). Three different made comments last night that I'd probably reverse my position now, and I'm not entirely sure all of them were joking.