Author Topic: Discussion of Messianic prophecy in the OT (Read 9431 times)

jesse · « **on:** May 07, 2015, 07:57:16 PM »

True!!

A few proofs:

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’" - Jeremiah 23:5-6

"The Lord says to my Lord:
'Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.'" - Psalm 110:1

Hebrews 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
[Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."]

“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2015, 09:12:13 PM »

Quote from: jesse on May 07, 2015, 07:57:16 PM

True!!

A few proofs:

"For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6

“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The Lord our righteousness.’" - Jeremiah 23:5-6

"The Lord says to my Lord:
'Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.'" - Psalm 110:1

Hebrews 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
[Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."]

“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

Isaiah 9:6 this one you might have an argument for, but Jewish people generally think it is referring to Hezekiah, and that "God" here is used figuratively.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 is not necessarily referring to Jesus. After all, Jesus did not reign as king. It's more likely to refer to Hezekiah or Josiah. As for the name, that was common. After all, Daniel means "God is our judge" but that doesn't make him God, now does it?

Psalm 110:1 I don't get why you think this refers to Jesus. "Lord" is a term for royalty. It's more likely referring to David or Solomon. Plus I don't think Jesus would want his enemies as his footstool. He'd want to have a drink with them sometime.

Hebrews is N.T. and even if it refers to the O.T. you cannot use that interpretation of the O.T. as a proof.

Zechariah 12:10 This also doesn't necessarily refer to Jesus. More than likely it's Israel or God himself, looking at the context of the whole passage.

There's a reason Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor that he was God, and that's because it's not conclusive. Throwing out the N.T. takes a way a lot of arguments for Jesus being God himself, and if you're looking at the O.T. alone, I don't think I'd come up with the Messiah being God himself. It distinctly refers to them as separate entities and there is only one God.

jesse · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2015, 09:56:08 PM »

You're right that there is one God - but He is triune: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. Definitely a mystery but Genesis to Revelation it's what God reveals about Himself.

"This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." - 1 Timothy 2:3-6

If Jesus wasn't/isn't God, then we are hopelessly condemned to hell because only God can take away our sins...but it had to be a man who stood in our place, because humanity is who is guilty of sin. In God's perfect holiness and justice, every sin is deserving of hell, and the one who sins is the one held guilty- unless a perfect substitute is offered in place (sacrificial lamb's bloodshed + death concept established in the O.T.). So Jesus is uniquely the only possible savior - God who took on humanity because of His unimaginable love for us, and because of our dire need for salvation.

Jesus really is God and it is the best news EVER

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** May 07, 2015, 10:05:44 PM »

Westy is not saying anything beyond that the proof from the OT you posted was insufficient for Jewish scholars examining the same evidence to come to that same conclusion.

Side note, I split this off since the original topic was asking people to vote in a poll on the topic, and this was a derailment (and its own discussion).

jbeers285 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2015, 10:18:48 PM »

I may be misunderstanding something but don't almost all Jewish scholars concur that OT prophecies all had short and long term forms of fulfillment? Don't most of them believe that as Westy said those prophecies pointed to Hezekiah and possibly Josiah but that they also point to the messiah?

Granted I accept Jesus as the Messiah, but Jewish scholars would still say the long term fulfillment has not yet come.

I am at work but have something interesting from the prophecy of Daniel I would like to share in this thread but will need a computer to type on. So hold me a place :-)

Red · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2015, 10:38:38 PM »

The classical Reformed view of the Bible would say that the Old Testament promises Christ and the New Testament presents Christ. The problem here is that while the Old Testament does have messianic prophecies that can be said to be fulfilled in Christ, they are not conclusive evidence. Now when we bring the New Testament in, we have a clear picture of Christ that shows the prophecy fulfilled. The issue here is, as a Christian we shouldn't be dividing the Testaments like this, they both play a clear part in the Story of Redemption and both are needed.

kariusvega · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2015, 11:24:59 PM »

I think the best OT references which truly allude to Christ are Noah, Moses with the Golden Serpent http://www.zianet.com/maxey/brsnake1.jpg, and Abraham. I mean, Moses put EXACTLY what was killing the people on a cross for them to focus with pin point precision on the fact they were going to kill themselves by leaving the camp to go commit sin. In John 3 Jesus says to Nicodemus "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up." This is a perfect illustration of how we are in fact physically killing ourselves with our sin psychologically all the way to biologically. This is a scientific principle often over looked all the way to our society today. Every one of your neurons are connected to a part of your body. Giving your neurons any other connection to anything but continuous harmonious inner connection from clogged arteries, smoking, drinking HIV/AIDS, Ebola, leprosy, will physically manifest as cancerous tumors and diseases where they are no longer focused on their task at hand (survival). Often facing death is a way to forcefully invoke the will to survive which yields harmony from a number of different physiological/chemical genetically developed reactions to circumstances.. But is also a path to dying.

With Abraham and Isaac the Father tells him not to kill Isaac as an ultimate sacrifice knowing it would not be sufficient for mankind at the time.

This is honestly the biggest problem with humans- they can know not the knowledge of God (or the knowledge of Good) because of the place for the knowledge of evil. In example, knowing time as one linear path. Jesus knows multitudes of times and possible outcomes as they exist in wavelengths and frequencies we do not physically access as carbon based beings. Carbon 12 (6 protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons), yes we are the beast, is what makes 98% of the life WE KNOW OF. Only what we know of though.. Keep in mind, stars trajectories are hyperbolic and omni directional.

I guarantee the same percentage of people on this forum alone are oblivious to their own demons. Knowing not as a not is simply knowing that which isn't- which won't take you anywhere or get you anything relatively speaking, basically setting you up for complete demonic exploitation. Falling through a vacuum of space revolving around one central entity (a literal lake of fire) just as we are in our solar system around our star makes Jesus quite relevant from a neurological to an astrological perspective. Anyone who has taken a look at the universe can clearly tell that rationally we are quite self similar proportionately if you know anything about the Golden Ratio and can feel a song for instance (the frequencies of vibration at specific biologically known yet psychological ignorant to exact frequencies).

The best part about Christianity which I feel is often the most exempt from consideration is the fact that it is applied science. The law is a way to live. Life yields life and is how you live. Do not die, and you will survive. Keep the fruits of the spirit and you will have much more than the bare necessities of life. Jesus is the keystone between the OT and the NT just as he is the keystone to understanding the connection of religion to science.

But probably the best prophecy of Christ above all can be found at the very beginning of the Bible in Genesis 1 when God says "Let there be light". Before there was light, there was darkness. Before we could be alive to understand, we were not. Understanding Christ as God and as King allows us to understand Christ as understanding. Understanding him as a being and becoming truly Christ like is our way to potentially have eternal life in Him as our genealogical lineage has continued to exist through to this point in time due to His very own applied scientific way of life.

kram1138 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 08, 2015, 01:19:37 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on May 07, 2015, 11:24:59 PM

Do not die, and you will survive.

The most profound statement I have ever seen.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM »

Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2015, 02:38:53 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM

Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

Any guy could be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then be called out of Egypt, and be known as a Nazarene? I thought that pretty much relied on your parents.

joeychips · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2015, 12:25:46 PM »

I discuss this topic at great length in my book:
Mighty Messianic Prophecy: Biblical Research of Predictions Proving that Jesus Is God.

You can actually read the first 3 chapters of it for free online here:
http://joechiappetta.blogspot.com/2013/11/mighty-messianic-prophecy-book.html

Lampy 2.0 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2015, 03:57:36 PM »

A good one is in Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This predicts Satan's downful at the defeat of death by Jesus' hand.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2015, 03:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Lampy 2.0 on May 08, 2015, 03:57:36 PM

A good one is in Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This predicts Satan's downful at the defeat of death by Jesus' hand.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about Jesus.

yirgogo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2015, 04:45:16 PM »

Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 03:58:58 PM

Quote from: Lampy 2.0 on May 08, 2015, 03:57:36 PM
A good one is in Genesis 3:15.

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

This predicts Satan's downfall at the defeat of death by Jesus' hand.
No, it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about Jesus.

As a Christian, I believe it points to Jesus, as do the sacrificial animal in Genesis w/ Adam and Eve, as does Isaac, but Other Jewish Scholars don't.

Good evidence for Christ I see in the Old Testament in Isaiah 53, the whole chapter, but especially verses 7 and 8.
"7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.

The book of Isaiah was talking about the Messiah who would come, but says that he was... It uses past tense to describe him, and who can exist in the past from the Future but God?

Also, Zachariah is possibly the most specific book about Jesus in the bible. It was written to encourage the Jews to keep building the new temple, and was written to show the coming of Jesus, and that there was hope for them.

Zechariah 9:9 states:
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!
Shout, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and victorious,
lowly and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey."

Which corresponds with Matthew 21:7-9
"7 They [The Disciples]brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on.
8 A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road.
9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted"

Zechraiah also points to Jesus in many other specific ways, the 30 Pieces of Silver, 11:12-13, his Disciples leaving him, 13:7, and most specifically to his being pierced, 12:10,which in the time of the Jews was not the way they killed people in the time Zechariah was written.

Zechariah 12:10:
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."

An argument against this was that they were talking about someone at the time who would die, and Israel would mourn for them, but Zechariah was written during the Reign of Darius the Great, and they used a technique called Scaphism, which was killing someone by coating them with honey so that insects came and ate them inside out, which involves no nails, or being pierced whatsoever.

People then say "what about someone dying in battle?" Well, Under Darius the Great, the only Soliders were Perisans, not Jews.

I believe all this points to the Messiah Being Jesus Christ.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM »

But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12. It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.

yirgogo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2015, 07:43:28 PM »

Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM

But Jesus was not a king.

Jesus says himself that he is a king though,

Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a King. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2015, 09:13:28 PM »

Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM

But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12. It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.

Jesus will return a king. The issue here is that you are trying to interpret this like a Jew or Muslim. You have to look at the whole of the Bible to discern prophecy.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2015, 12:36:25 AM »

Quote from: Red on May 08, 2015, 09:13:28 PM

Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM
But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12. It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.
Jesus will return a king. The issue here is that you are trying to interpret this like a Jew or Muslim. You have to look at the whole of the Bible to discern prophecy.

Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament (as a Jew or Muslim might look at it, yes).

jbeers285 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2015, 12:44:45 AM »

Quote from: Westy on May 09, 2015, 12:36:25 AM

Quote from: Red on May 08, 2015, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: Westy on May 08, 2015, 06:33:37 PM
But Jesus was not a king.

Isaiah is probably talking about himself in Isaiah 53. The context says "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" and then that passage follows.

I've already mentioned that Zechariah is (probably) referring to God, or perhaps Israel, in chapter 12. It's pretty clearly figurative language, like much of prophecy.
Jesus will return a king. The issue here is that you are trying to interpret this like a Jew or Muslim. You have to look at the whole of the Bible to discern prophecy.
Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament (as a Jew or Muslim might look at it, yes).

Can a Muslim or Jew be presented the factual evidence of Jesus life as accounted for in a historical (non-religious) sense? Sure they can. So to say you have to interpret it without knowledge of Jesus existence would also be inaccurate.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2015, 02:02:25 AM »

I was speaking more of the N.T. portions where it addresses how Jesus fulfilled the O.T. prophecies, not from the actually words of Jesus. There's a reason most people didn't see Jesus as the messiah--his fulfillment was very unconventional.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2015, 02:56:44 AM »

lol troll

I sort of agree with westy overall.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2015, 04:25:56 AM »

Quote

Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament

The original question did not specify that, it just asked whether it accurately predicted Jesus as God, which it did. The question of whether you could or would understand the prophecy of the Old Testament by only looking at the Old Testament is a different question.

Quote

There's a reason Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor that he was God, and that's because it's not conclusive.

That is false. The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence. This was pretty explicitly demonstrated in the gospels and Acts with the Pharisees and priests not contesting the facts of the miracles but refusing to accept Christ anyway.

Quote

Throwing out the N.T. takes a way a lot of arguments for Jesus being God himself, and if you're looking at the O.T. alone, I don't think I'd come up with the Messiah being God himself.

Maybe and if I looked at the N.T. alone, a lot of that wouldn't make sense either. They are separate parts but they are meant by God the author to be understood as one whole. You can of course study individual parts but they are never in isolation from the rest. Throwing out part of the Bible or looking at it as a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, scientologist, etc. is probably just going to lead to bad interpretation. In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short.

Quote

Psalm 110:1 I don't get why you think this refers to Jesus. "Lord" is a term for royalty. It's more likely referring to David or Solomon. Plus I don't think Jesus would want his enemies as his footstool. He'd want to have a drink with them sometime.

This is and Isaiah 53 are good examples. I understand where you could be coming from here but why depend on our own guesses when Jesus actually says this is about himself in Matt. 22:41-46 (and Mark and Luke)? This is no offense to you but I'm certain that Jesus is better at interpreting this passage then you or I. There are so many cross references for Isaiah 53 that I can't list them all but Acts 8:26-39 is a fairly good one. The eunuch with only the O.T. to study was uncertain of Isaiah's meaning but Phillip with the knowledge of the gospel and Christ's teachings and the guidance of the Holy Spirit was able to explain it to him.

I've seen references to the interpretations of the Jewish people, Jewish scholars, etc as sources that deserve respect and are valid but the N.T. is not a valid source? I'll trust Paul the apostle (or Peter, John, etc.) as reliable, credible experts on the topic far more than any of those others. This is not even getting into my position as a believer in Christ and my trust in His Word.

Quote

.....the proof from the OT you posted was insufficient for Jewish scholars examining the same evidence to come to that same conclusion.

First of all the evidence posted is far from all the evidence available but regardless this view is misleading. There have been plenty of scholars, Jewish and otherwise, who have studied the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Savior. Secondly there are examples like Herod and his experts that clearly understood the Scriptures to prophesy the savior being born in Bethlehem but still rejected Jesus and tried to kill him. Contrary to there being insufficient evidence, Herod seemed convinced enough to think it worth the effort to slaughter many innocent children to try and stop this new king.

Just because some don't understand, disagree, or reject the Scriptures doesn't mean they are not clear and true in what they say. The insufficiency could be in the minds and hearts of the readers/listeners.

kariusvega · « **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2015, 10:37:38 AM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 09, 2015, 04:25:56 AM

Quote
Not when the original question specified only looking at the old testament

The original question did not specify that, it just asked whether it accurately predicted Jesus as God, which it did. The question of whether you could or would understand the prophecy of the Old Testament by only looking at the Old Testament is a different question.

Quote
There's a reason Jewish people don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah, nor that he was God, and that's because it's not conclusive.

That is false. The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence. This was pretty explicitly demonstrated in the gospels and Acts with the Pharisees and priests not contesting the facts of the miracles but refusing to accept Christ anyway.

Quote
Throwing out the N.T. takes a way a lot of arguments for Jesus being God himself, and if you're looking at the O.T. alone, I don't think I'd come up with the Messiah being God himself.

Maybe and if I looked at the N.T. alone, a lot of that wouldn't make sense either. They are separate parts but they are meant by God the author to be understood as one whole. You can of course study individual parts but they are never in isolation from the rest. Throwing out part of the Bible or looking at it as a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, scientologist, etc. is probably just going to lead to bad interpretation. In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short.

Quote
Psalm 110:1 I don't get why you think this refers to Jesus. "Lord" is a term for royalty. It's more likely referring to David or Solomon. Plus I don't think Jesus would want his enemies as his footstool. He'd want to have a drink with them sometime.

This is and Isaiah 53 are good examples. I understand where you could be coming from here but why depend on our own guesses when Jesus actually says this is about himself in Matt. 22:41-46 (and Mark and Luke)? This is no offense to you but I'm certain that Jesus is better at interpreting this passage then you or I. There are so many cross references for Isaiah 53 that I can't list them all but Acts 8:26-39 is a fairly good one. The eunuch with only the O.T. to study was uncertain of Isaiah's meaning but Phillip with the knowledge of the gospel and Christ's teachings and the guidance of the Holy Spirit was able to explain it to him.

I've seen references to the interpretations of the Jewish people, Jewish scholars, etc as sources that deserve respect and are valid but the N.T. is not a valid source? I'll trust Paul the apostle (or Peter, John, etc.) as reliable, credible experts on the topic far more than any of those others. This is not even getting into my position as a believer in Christ and my trust in His Word.

Quote
.....the proof from the OT you posted was insufficient for Jewish scholars examining the same evidence to come to that same conclusion.

First of all the evidence posted is far from all the evidence available but regardless this view is misleading. There have been plenty of scholars, Jewish and otherwise, who have studied the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that Jesus is God the Savior. Secondly there are examples like Herod and his experts that clearly understood the Scriptures to prophesy the savior being born in Bethlehem but still rejected Jesus and tried to kill him. Contrary to there being insufficient evidence, Herod seemed convinced enough to think it worth the effort to slaughter many innocent children to try and stop this new king.

Just because some don't understand, disagree, or reject the Scriptures doesn't mean they are not clear and true in what they say. The insufficiency could be in the minds and hearts of the readers/listeners.

Precisely.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2015, 09:04:14 PM »

I don't like splitting up posts.

This is basically semantics. Still, a better way to phrase the question would be "Does the old testament accurately predict the Messiah as God?" The fact that it specifies Jesus already makes the assumption that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. There are a few problems with this assumption. While Christians will agree with it, what's the point of asking the question if you're only asking it to people who have obviously already picked an answer? Problem 2 is that Christians agree with it largely because of the interpretations of the OT by the NT (as evidenced by this thread), which is looking at it through biased glasses. This is why I've been stressing looking at it from the OT only. So getting back to what I was talking about, saying "Messiah" instead of "Jesus" eliminates this bias, which is necessary. Or simply throw out the NT like I was doing from the beginning. Either way, it's pointless to take the NT into account.

If you think that Jewish people are still like the Pharisees of old, then it's pointless to discuss this with you. In actuality most Christians are far closer to Pharisees than they'd like to admit.

Once again, this is just assuming you're speaking only to Christians, which is pointless. Until we agree on what the question exactly is and why it's being asked, I'm not sure we can proceed because we're coming at it with a different premise.

And again, I'm not looking at Mark, I'm looking at the prophecies. The question is not whether Jesus was indeed God, but whether the prophecies predicted the Messiah to be God.

Finally, it sounds like you're saying that all rational people believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and is indeed God. I'm sure you don't actually believe that every rational person is a Christian, but it comes across that way when you make statements like "The insufficiency could be in their hearts and minds" and " In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short." and "The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence." Be careful of your demeanor, it can very easily turn people away from Christianity. Zeal is not always a boon.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2015, 12:09:30 AM »

Quote from: Westy on May 09, 2015, 09:04:14 PM

In actuality most Christians are far closer to Pharisees than they'd like to admit.

I admit that I wish I was more like Joseph of Arimathea, at least from a financial standpoint.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2015, 12:18:54 AM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 08, 2015, 02:38:53 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM
Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

Any guy could be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then be called out of Egypt, and be known as a Nazarene? I thought that pretty much relied on your parents.

His parents could have red that prophecy and simply exaggerated the virgin part. The point is prophecy that has already come to pass is not proof of anything. All we have to go on is the word of those who saw it come to pass, which is good enough for me but not foolproof.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2015, 12:45:08 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on May 10, 2015, 12:18:54 AM

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 08, 2015, 02:38:53 AM
Quote from: TheHobbit on May 08, 2015, 01:52:51 AM
Well it a hinges on the resurrection and not the prophecies anyway. Any guy with delusions of grandeur with a background in scripture could try and be the Messiah. Its not obvious at first glance if Jesus was simply following a recipe.

Any guy could be born of a virgin, in Bethlehem, move to Egypt and then be called out of Egypt, and be known as a Nazarene? I thought that pretty much relied on your parents.
His parents could have red that prophecy and simply exaggerated the virgin part. The point is prophecy that has already come to pass is not proof of anything. All we have to go on is the word of those who saw it come to pass, which is good enough for me but not foolproof.

We also have outside witnesses who recorded data. Like the Census being decreed and the results. Several of the early church fathers who acted as apologists to the Romans ask the leaders they are appealing to, to go and look up the census and the record of Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem. To go and look up the data And records kept about the death of Jesus by crucifixion. To go and read how it was recorded that his followers believed Jesus rose from the dead.

If those sources didn't exsist for leaders being appealed to then those apologists were fools. They clearly had to have been there at that point in history.

kariusvega · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM »

Quote from: Westy on May 09, 2015, 09:04:14 PM

I don't like splitting up posts.

This is basically semantics. Still, a better way to phrase the question would be "Does the old testament accurately predict the Messiah as God?" The fact that it specifies Jesus already makes the assumption that Jesus is indeed the Messiah. There are a few problems with this assumption. While Christians will agree with it, what's the point of asking the question if you're only asking it to people who have obviously already picked an answer? Problem 2 is that Christians agree with it largely because of the interpretations of the OT by the NT (as evidenced by this thread), which is looking at it through biased glasses. This is why I've been stressing looking at it from the OT only. So getting back to what I was talking about, saying "Messiah" instead of "Jesus" eliminates this bias, which is necessary. Or simply throw out the NT like I was doing from the beginning. Either way, it's pointless to take the NT into account.

If you think that Jewish people are still like the Pharisees of old, then it's pointless to discuss this with you. In actuality most Christians are far closer to Pharisees than they'd like to admit.

Once again, this is just assuming you're speaking only to Christians, which is pointless. Until we agree on what the question exactly is and why it's being asked, I'm not sure we can proceed because we're coming at it with a different premise.

And again, I'm not looking at Mark, I'm looking at the prophecies. The question is not whether Jesus was indeed God, but whether the prophecies predicted the Messiah to be God.

Finally, it sounds like you're saying that all rational people believe that Jesus is indeed the Messiah and is indeed God. I'm sure you don't actually believe that every rational person is a Christian, but it comes across that way when you make statements like "The insufficiency could be in their hearts and minds" and " In fact if we try to interpret Scripture in any way as a human without the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit, we probably come up short." and "The issue is pride and a lack of faith, not a lack of evidence." Be careful of your demeanor, it can very easily turn people away from Christianity. Zeal is not always a boon.

Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #28 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:25:19 AM »

Is Jesus God or is he a giant spaghetti monster? The Old Testament is unclear.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #29 on:** May 10, 2015, 01:33:21 AM »

As a side note, the Hebrew word for virgin can also mean young woman, which has nothing to do with what we normally associate the word with.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #30 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:54:01 AM »

If the original bible wasn't in English, how could the Jewish scholars interpret it? Checkmate, evangelicals.

jesse · « **Reply #31 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:59:54 AM »

"And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking." - Ezekiel 1:26-28

“I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished; and he rose in haste and spoke, saying to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire; and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” - Daniel 3:24-25

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?” So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?” Then the Commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:13-15

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!” So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.” And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.” And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” - Genesis 32:24-30

jesse · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2015, 03:31:35 AM »

Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision. Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, and distress them in His deep displeasure: “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion.
"I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. - Psalm 2

My heart is overflowing with a good theme; I recite my composition concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer. You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever. Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; The peoples fall under You. Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions. All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia, Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad. Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, O daughter, Consider and incline your ear; Forget your own people also, and your father's house; So the King will greatly desire your beauty; Because He is your Lord, worship Him. - Psalm 45:1-11

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. The Lord has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” - Psalm 110:1-4

**The order of Melchizedek = King + priest (of/from Jerusalem! - Genesis 14:18)

Then speak to him, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: “Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes, He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’- Zechariah 6:12-14

“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
-Jeremiah 23:5-6

jbeers285 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:49:07 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 01:25:19 AM

Is Jesus God or is he a giant spaghetti monster? The Old Testament is unclear.

Ok Dawkins

Quote from: Westy on May 10, 2015, 01:33:21 AM

As a side note, the Hebrew word for virgin can also mean young woman, which has nothing to do with what we normally associate the word with.

This is why context is king in any translating. Come on Westy, don't bring the weak sauce. Playing the troll is more interesting when you actually have something trolling to say.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #34 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM »

Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM

Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

I see that trolling the troll is apparently not permitted.

Redoubter · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:08:38 PM »

If this thread is just going to get personal and/or continue to be about trolling, it will be locked. It's pretty clear that this is diverting from the original discussion, and I'm not sure it even needs to continue in its current state.

Red · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:41:42 PM »

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

TheMarti · « **Reply #38 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:42:32 PM »

Please relax a bit, guys. This is an important topic to look at, and it's important to look at various points, but you have to keep it civil or I'll be forced to move this over to OD at the very least.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 10, 2015, 02:46:58 PM »

Dayne your post reminded me that I had something interesting to bring up, at least I found it interesting. Also my intention was not to call Westy stupid but I can see that is how it came across. My thought process was more along the lines of assuming his intelligence exceeds his post. I also assumed he was simply trolling more then actually posing the question. Sorry for my part in making that appear heated. It was not my intention.

Back to the topic at hand.

Daniel 9:20-27 is the scripture I am referencing if you want to read it yourself.

In 457 B.C. the word is given to free the Jews to return to Isarel to rebuild Jerusalem. This is recorded in Ezra 11. When you look at the prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel we see the 7, 7's and 62, 7's will pass from the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed one comes. These sets of 7's come out to 483 years. In the middle of the last seven Gabriel says the annoited one will be cut off. (The Hebrew word for cut is equal to executed.) From 457 B.C. If you move ahead 483 years you arrive at 27 A.D. Even with a year or two discrepancy this is a precise prophecy that is applicable to Jesus' death.

Several well known Jewish Rabbis have become Christ followers after discerning this prophecy. Rachmiel Frydland 1919-1985 is one such example.

kariusvega · « **Reply #40 on:** May 10, 2015, 04:17:00 PM »

Isn't asking someone if they believe in Christ the core of Christianity and discipleship, which would be the entire intention of any Christian having this discussion? Affirmation of our faith in Jesus? Because objectively this entire topic has done just that..

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #41 on:** May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM

Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM

Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

kariusvega · « **Reply #42 on:** May 10, 2015, 06:17:49 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM
Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

How does anyone posting anything reaffirming faith in Jesus have a negative affect here? Especially when it is for the person who initially asked that said they are writing a book on the topic haha the post being separated is causing a bigger problem to his original post which may have more responses to the survey since now it has practically been buried by separation

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #43 on:** May 10, 2015, 07:54:20 PM »

Quote from: The Marti on May 10, 2015, 02:42:32 PM

...but you have to keep it civil or I'll be forced to move this over to OD at the very least.

Yes! Please do! That way I won't have to see it anymore.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:02:32 PM »

I thought I brought up an interesting prophecy from the book of Daniel. And I thought that it was worth adding to the thread. I didn't realize it would remain on the path that it did. I haven't locked it because I was involved in the thread.

I guess I can't do it from this section of the boards anyways.

Red · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:34:25 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

Quote from: kariusvega on May 10, 2015, 01:12:28 AM
Well, Christians are the biggest threat to Christianity, just as Christ was the biggest threat to himself. The point is, do you believe in Him?

Quote from: jbeers285 on May 10, 2015, 10:34:14 AM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 10:14:02 AM
Typically debates go better when you bring a counter point instead of telling westy he's dumb. But this isn't a debate. This is Christians trying to convert westy and it's honestly kinda disgusting overall.

So stating that context is king isn't a valid point?

It would be disgusting if believers didn't attempt to convert the people around them. If I trully believe how much do I hate you if I don's try to bring you to (who I believe is) the savior?

Quote from: Red on May 10, 2015, 02:35:46 PM
Does westy need converting? Last I ever knew he didn't? Secondly, trying to convert someone to what you assume/know/believe is not disgusting. It's admirable. If an atheist tried to convert me, I would most definiately respect that he is acting with authority. Granted, I wouldn't agree in the slightest but still.

This is not at all what Jesus described as how to go about spreading his Gospel. It's embarassing that anyone on this forum would so blatantly proselytize a prominent member of the forums with a well known theological positions in relative closeness to orthodox Christianity. This thread has long since digressed from being about the topic and devolved into "How can I prove Westy is wrong to Westy so Westy will love Jesus more and be saved?". It's a disgusting displaying of people who think they are right unable to do anything but spout what they think are facts back to someone. There is literally no room in this conversation for Westy to even maybe be right, because everyone is just assuming he's a heretic based on the tonality of posts.

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Per the topic at hand, this is a ridiculous question because, shockingly, as Jay pointed out, you can't really answer this question with the NT, and this question is expressing ignoring the NT.

If I conveyed that I thought he was a heretic it was unintentional. My apologies on that front.

Drrek · « **Reply #46 on:** May 12, 2015, 03:42:44 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on May 10, 2015, 05:18:33 PM

You can't convert someone on the internet so stop trying.

Now I'm talking about general conversion to Christianity here, not Messianic prophecy, but you should absolutely keep trying to convert people on the internet. Now I don't think Westy is in need of a conversion to Christianity, since he already seems to have made that conversion, I'm talking about saving those who do not believe through conversion to Christianity here.

When Herod asked to Paul "Do you think in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?," his response was not "well I guess it won't work here so I won't try." No, it was "Short time or long, I pray to God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."

The matter of following Christ is of infinite importance, and there's is literally nothing that comes close to its importance. Even when an avenue of witnessing didn't seem to bear much fruit, Paul didn't give up on Herod, and we aren't to give up on our fellow man. The only thing that matters in this life is one's relationship with God, and if you truly believe in Jesus, then growing in your relationship with God, and trying to serve and save others should be your primary goals in life.

Daniel · « **Reply #47 on:** May 12, 2015, 03:47:34 PM »

It's not a religion debate on these forums if Red isn't using the word "heretic"

News:

Author Topic: Discussion of Messianic prophecy in the OT (Read 9431 times)

Warrior_Monk

kariusvega

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

kariusvega

Warrior_Monk

TheHobbit13

kariusvega

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!

TheMarti

kariusvega

kariusvega

Daniel