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Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: YourMathTeacher on November 24, 2010, 08:51:14 PM
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On an unrelated note, do you agree with your coach's statement about Boise State? (We can delete these posts later)
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I'm not even sure what it is he said, maybe you can point me to it. Knowing The Vest, it's probably something about how they're a good young team, talented, their defense flies to the ball, they have a good running game, blah blah blah.
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Quite the opposite actually (but it was the university president, not the coach).
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14347652/ohio-state-president-tcu-boise-dont-deserve-title-shot (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/14347652/ohio-state-president-tcu-boise-dont-deserve-title-shot)
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OK, well, see, that's not something The Vest would say. But I would disqualify them for their stupid blue turf more than their playing schedule. That said, I agree with him on the premise that playing New Mexico State, San Jose State, Toledo and Louisiana Tech is not the same as playing Miami, Wisconsin, Penn State, Iowa and Michigan. Their record will earn them a BCS bowl at the least, and then they can show us if they're worthy of their record.
... unless they get matched up against a Big East team, in which case we won't really learn anything.
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Perhaps we could start consulting football coaches for rulings.
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Perhaps we could start consulting football coaches for rulings.
Play nice. Schaef already gave his input. I would think he is waiting for other PtBs to comment.
OK, well, see, that's not something The Vest would say. But I would disqualify them for their stupid blue turf more than their playing schedule. That said, I agree with him on the premise that playing New Mexico State, San Jose State, Toledo and Louisiana Tech is not the same as playing Miami, Wisconsin, Penn State, Iowa and Michigan. Their record will earn them a BCS bowl at the least, and then they can show us if they're worthy of their record.
They showed Oklahoma a few years back, with the amazing Jared Zabransky and the Statue of Liberty. Who knows what they'll do this year. ;)
... unless they get matched up against a Big East team, in which case we won't really learn anything.
Hey! I'm a UConn fan! We actually have a chance to win the division and go to a BCS Bowl with an 8-4 record. All we have to do is beat South Florida and Cincinnati, and get West Virginia to beat Pittsburgh.
Of course, we are hardly a top-tier team, but Jordan Todman is a beast. Even Donald Brown (before he was a Colt) had to sit a few plays to watch Todman run. We had a "stud" QB who was supposed to lead the team to new heights, but he got himself in trouble. Now we're back to our Senior QB who was our former starter. Don't be surprised to see his leadership take UConn to the top of the Medium East.
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OK, well, see, that's not something The Vest would say. But I would disqualify them for their stupid blue turf more than their playing schedule. That said, I agree with him on the premise that playing New Mexico State, San Jose State, Toledo and Louisiana Tech is not the same as playing Miami, Wisconsin, Penn State, Iowa and Michigan. Their record will earn them a BCS bowl at the least, and then they can show us if they're worthy of their record.
... unless they get matched up against a Big East team, in which case we won't really learn anything.
We've already learned everything we need to know. Boise St. beat Oklahoma and Utah kicked the snot out of Alabama in BCS bowl games. I am getting really sick and tired of the posturing by the Big 6 conferences. They're starting to remind me of guys like Andrew Carnegie, J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, Mellon, and the Vanderbilts. I'm this close to putting college football on the same viewing schedule as the NBA and NHL, which is NEVER.
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Perhaps we could start consulting football coaches for rulings.
Entirely kidding. There's got to be some way to get jocks to play Redemption.
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Perhaps we could start consulting football coaches for rulings.
Entirely kidding. There's got to be some way to get jocks to play Redemption.
Ask DaClock. I hear he is a football star. I seem to recall that many board members are athletes.
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Perhaps we could start consulting football coaches for rulings.
Entirely kidding. There's got to be some way to get jocks to play Redemption.
Ask DaClock. I hear he is a football star. I seem to recall that many board members are athletes.
I hear Knoxville has a pretty athletic guy ;)
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I played football in high school, and while I'm no star baller, the jock block back at school always claimed me as one of their own (often to my dismay).
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21 Mile Per Hour fastball SoNnNnN. It is kind of disappointing though, as that means my favorite team (Twins) won't draft me beings they go after cheap control pitchers whereas I'd be a first round, $50 mil signing bonus, power pitcher.
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Boise St. beat Oklahoma...
I meant against GOOD teams. Beating Oklahoma in a bowl game is like beating Notre Dame in a bowl game. Personally, I think the two should be banned for life from all future BCS invites.
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Boise St. beat Oklahoma...
I meant against GOOD teams. Beating Oklahoma in a bowl game is like beating Notre Dame in a bowl game.
Be careful what you say around here about a team led by Adrian Peterson. ;)
The 2007 Fiesta Bowl was the best college football game I have ever watched, even surpassing Doug Flutie's Hail Mary pass to beat Miami back in the day.
I have to wonder if you are little bitter about that particular 2007 bowl season, seeing as the formerly undefeated Buckeyes ran into the insurmountable mass of Tim Tebow for the National Championship game. :o
Besides, we are also talking about Utah, who twice won BCS Bowls. I don't think you can include Alabama in the same context as OK and ND for bowl game ineptitude.
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Be careful what you say around here about a team led by Adrian Peterson.
Led straight to another bowl loss. Congratulations on that account.
The 2007 Fiesta Bowl was the best college football game I have ever watched, even surpassing Doug Flutie's Hail Mary pass to beat Miami back in the day.
I liked the 2002 Fiesta Bowl better. Especially having seen it in person.
Besides, we are also talking about Utah, who twice won BCS Bowls. I don't think you can include Alabama in the same context as OK and ND for bowl game ineptitude.
No, I don't. But I specifically quoted Boise St./OK
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I want to give some love to TCU.
Really hope Bama beats Auburn! :)
Seriously though...we know it's all about the money for why they won't do a play-off system, but I can't figure out how the current system would be more profitable than having a "Football Final Four" ?
Can you imagine Boise St v Oregon and TCU v Auburn semi-final games? That would be amazing! :o
P.S. My opinion on WiSC (without doing any in-depth analysis) is that it would be considered a healing card, but since it has a condition (place in territory), that condition must be met before using it as a healing card.
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Boise St. beat Oklahoma...
I meant against GOOD teams. Beating Oklahoma in a bowl game is like beating Notre Dame in a bowl game. Personally, I think the two should be banned for life from all future BCS invites.
But the Big 6 conferences keep telling us that teams like Oklahoma are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
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The Balance of Football. :)
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But the Big 6 conferences Big 12 Conference keep telling us that teams like Oklahoma are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Fixed. Let's not map their issues onto everyone else; that conference is falling apart as it is.
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Oh no. He did not go there.
I suppose that Big 10 losses this year to teams like Toledo, Northern Illinois, and South Dakota were intentional. Are the losses to PAC-10 teams acceptable? Perhaps not, since TCU beat Oregon State and that can't count for anything. Since we were talking about previous seasons, I guess it is not worth mentioning Northwestern's loss to New Hampshire or Michigan's loss to Appalachian State.
Ah yes, the mighty Big Ten. There is no comparison. ;)
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I suppose that Big 10 losses this year to teams like Toledo, Northern Illinois, and South Dakota were intentional.
But, see, now you're moving the goalposts - no pun intended - from talking about Oklahoma (undeservedly) being in a BCS game to talking about a 2-9 Minnesota team that's not going to a bowl game at all. The Big Ten has three top-ten teams this year. The Big 12 lost two members and I am convinced was a conference call away from being a six-team conference. If the best you can do is dig up the dregs of the conference against the best of the also-rans (I'd put a top MAC team up against most Big 12 teams any day), then I feel no pressure to back away from my position: The Mighty Big Ten: the Big 12 is no comparison.
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Illinois and Purdue were also among the teams who lost to other conferences, not just Minnesota. However, you are now the one moving the goalposts (pun intended). This discussion was about the worthiness of teams like TCU and Boise State. If the argument of the OSU president (which you seem to support) is that their schedule makes them ineligible, then that argument is lost when teams from their conference play and beat Big Ten teams. The common denominator is, of course, the PAC-10. If PAC-10 teams can beat Big Ten teams, but Boise St. and TCU can beat PAC-10 teams, then the strength of schedule must not be as big a factor as has been assumed.
You are doing what is expected. Attributing losses from poor Big Ten teams to just a bad year (i.e. Minnesota) is an invalid argument, because those are the same poor teams that are on Ohio State's schedule. If those teams are that bad, then why is winning the conference at all impressive? I don't recall Ohio State having much more success in bowl games than Oklahoma.
Understand that this is not about you, or Ohio State. I am merely pointing out the fallacy of the arguments against TCU and Boise State being worthy of a title shot. After seeing Boise State and Utah in bowl games, and seeing that the stars of these teams could be the next big NFL stars, I think they deserve a chance. I remember thinking that Miami of Ohio didn't deserve a top 10 ranking even though they were undefeated in 2003. After all, they play in the MAC. Looking back now, their stellar QB was probably good enough to beat most top teams. Good 'ole Big Ben. ;)
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Boise State and TCU are worthy to play for the national title, but no matter how good they play they will never be able to play their way into the title game under the BCS system. They must rely on other teams to lose. If Auburn or Oregon don't lose then Boise State and TCU don't deserve to go. Auburn and Oregon have both gone through brutal schedules and the strength of schedule will be the deciding factor if all 4 teams end up undefeated.
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But the Big 6 conferences Big 12 Conference SEC AND Big 10 AND Big East AND Pac 10 AND Big 12 AND ACC keep telling us that teams like Alabama/Iowa/Pittsburgh/Oregon St./Oklahoma/Florida St. are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Fixed. Let's not map their issues onto everyone else; that conference is falling apart as it is.
Fixed again. They're ALL Robber Barons.
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Illinois and Purdue were also among the teams who lost to other conferences, not just Minnesota.
Minnesota was the victim of two of the three games you mentioned. I never said that Minnesota was the only team in the conference with a poor record. I only mentioned them in a response that applies no less to the other teams you mentioned.
However, you are now the one moving the goalposts (pun intended).
That is an incorrect assessment. I have not budged at all from my initial assertion. Let's not forget that a major portion of that position was that Oklahoma was a poor representative from a conference that is a shell of its former self and very nearly ceased to exist as a major conference. I certainly haven't budged from that. But the Big 12 being bad doesn't mean Boise St. can hang with top teams from the Big 10 or the SEC.
If the argument of the OSU president (which you seem to support) is that their schedule makes them ineligible, then that argument is lost when teams from their conference play and beat Big Ten teams.
... which are not even going to be in a bowl game of any sort, much less the BCS Championship game. The point is that the top teams get there by playing and beating other top teams. Bad teams winning or losing against other bad teams contributes nothing to that equation.
If PAC-10 teams can beat Big Ten teams...
Some PAC 10 teams can beat some Big 10 games, but overall, the PAC 10 isn't that much stronger than the Big 12. It's decidedly average, about as good as the ACC in my estimation.
Attributing losses from poor Big Ten teams to just a bad year (i.e. Minnesota) is an invalid argument, because those are the same poor teams that are on Ohio State's schedule.
They are also not the teams that I indicated as validating the strength of Ohio State as a team. They played top teams and beat them. The team they lost to was a top five team. Good teams beat good teams to determine who is better. Bad teams playing bad teams proves nothing about the quality of a good team that plays the same bad team.
I don't recall Ohio State having much more success in bowl games than Oklahoma.
Then you would be wrong. Ohio State has gone to more BCS games than any other school - 8, and won 5 of them, including a title game. 2 of the 3 they lost were also title games. Oklahoma has gone 7 times and only won twice, and never since 2003.
After all, they play in the MAC. Looking back now, their stellar QB was probably good enough to beat most top teams. Good 'ole Big Ben.
Roethlisberger is not one of the quarterbacks Ohio State granted the privilege of beating while they were still college phenoms. Some of the ones that earned that distinction include:
- Phillip Rivers
- Tom Brady
- Drew Brees
- Colt McCoy
- Kyle Orton
- Chad Henne
So he might have been good enough, but there are other factors that would go into whether his team was good enough. Ohio State, for example, hasn't lost to any team in the MAC conference in the last 19 or 20 years, and their defense lends a lot to that. Not only Ben would have to be better than one of those teams, but also his receivers, his running backs, and most importantly his o-line. I'm not worried.
SEC AND Big 10 AND Big East AND Pac 10 AND Big 12 AND ACC keep telling us that teams like Alabama/Iowa/Pittsburgh/Oregon St./Oklahoma/Florida St. are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Fixed again. They're ALL Robber Barons.
This is another incorrect assessment: none of those teams are ranked above Boise St. or TCU, I don't think any of them are in line for a BCS game this year, and definitely none of them are going to the title game over them. Utah had one victory against a ranked team, got drilled by TCU and beat soundly by Notre Dame; they've demonstrated they are not one of the two best teams in the country. This is a pretty bad chip-on-shoulder claim.
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SEC AND Big 10 AND Big East AND Pac 10 AND Big 12 AND ACC keep telling us that teams like Alabama/Iowa/Pittsburgh/Oregon St./Oklahoma/Florida St. are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Fixed again. They're ALL Robber Barons.
This is another incorrect assessment: none of those teams are ranked above Boise St. or TCU, I don't think any of them are in line for a BCS game this year, and definitely none of them are going to the title game over them. Utah had one victory against a ranked team, got drilled by TCU and beat soundly by Notre Dame; they've demonstrated they are not one of the two best teams in the country. This is a pretty bad chip-on-shoulder claim.
It is only an incorrect assessment if I had initially stipulated that my statements were focused solely on the year 2010. I did not. I only specified team names as examples for the general atmosphere of the game. Year in and year out, this subject comes up regardless of the names of the schools involved.
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i did not. I only specified team names as examples for the general atmosphere of the game. Year in and year out, this subject comes up regardless of the names of the schools involved.
If that's the tack you want to take, then I'll point out that pretty much none of those schools have been placed into championship games in recent years, and Alabama as the most glaring example you mentioned went undefeated last year and won convincingly against a solid Texas team. Another puzzling addition is Oregon State, who has not been invited to ANY BCS bowl since 2001, and they won that game.
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But the Big 6 conferences keep telling us that teams like Oklahoma are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Forget it STAMP. There simply is no match for Big Ten arrogance..... except perhaps SEC arrogance. We should scrap the whole BCS set up and just match the top teams in the BigTen and SEC for all the major bowl games from now on. No one else is worthy. I'm not sure why Oregon is even still up there. A one-loss Big Ten team is better than an undefeated PAC10 team any day of the week. ;)
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Yeah, that must be it, people are just arrogant about their conferences, and not stating simple facts about the strength of the top three to five teams versus other conferences that have one or maybe two A-list teams, or wondering why teams that are almost never seen in BCS games keep getting used as examples about how the BCS screws other conferences.
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For the record, I was watching the newest Star Trek movie and felt the urge to try to elicit an emotional response in order to usurp control of the boards. Since Schaef used italics to demonstrate emotion, I hereby cite Starfleet Regulation 619: The commanding officer must relieve themselves of command if their current mission leaves them emotionally compromised and unable to make rational decisions.
I am now in control of these boards.
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That's not really going to happen as long as Ohio Stadium has not been sucked up into a black hole by a poorly-conceived plot device.
And as long as I'm not the one drawing equivalencies between 5-3 BCS teams and 2-5 BCS teams, or teams that haven't even gone to one of those bowls in a decade. :p
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Seeing as how a mod is 1/3 this conversation, could he maybe move it to the appropriate area?
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Boise St. lost...new conversation...
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Boise St. lost...new conversation...
But that's not possible! Boise State is better than Oregon and Auburn put together! They were scheduled to play the Seahawks next Sunday for control of the NFC West!
Well, I guess they're just going to have to get in line with Stanford and Oklahoma State and all the other one-loss teams and say there's always next year.
Let's be clear about one other thing before the convo withers and dies: I have always hated the BCS system, from day one. I'm pretty sure somewhere on these boards I have a broad thesis outlining all the reasons it's crap. I agreed that copping out by putting Boise St. and TCU in the mix only to have them play each other robbed both schools of a chance to prove they weren't going to be the next Notre Dame.
But this whole thing about the conferences using the BCS to screw the other schools is totally overblown. The Series responded to Utah's win over Pitt by changing the rules so that a top-ranked non-conference school would get an automatic bid to play in a BCS game. That's what got Boise and TCU and Utah into these games in the first place. That's what gave Hawaii the privilege of getting drilled by Georgia. And Utah has actually demonstrated they belong in the conversation by beating Alabama a couple years ago. But that doesn't mean that every State Tech A&M team that blows through their Division 1-1/2 conference would be playing in the SEC Championship game most years. Trust me, cause this is coming from a guy whose team is the class of the Big Ten and a title contender nearly every year, but still needs to prove they can do the job against a superior SEC conference.
Every conference has bad teams, or average teams with bad years. There can be strong arguments made about whether some conferences deserve their place among the major six (I'm not naming names, Big East and Big 12). And the day they ask the people what they want, I'll be first in line to say give us a playoff and allow these teams from smaller conferences the opportunity to put their money where their mouth is. But come on: some of these schools are better than you, a few of them significantly so.
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In all fairness, this year TCU was the real Cinderella, not Boise State. Kellen Moore is exceptional and had some of the "magic" of Jared Zabransky - did anyone see that pass at the end of regulation with one second left that set up what should have been the game-winning FG? But this Boise State was not the same as the one that beat OK in the Fiesta Bowl, which had the most returning starters for a college football team in recent history.
TCU, on the other hand, has the #1 ranked defense in the country, and a top ten offense. I think they have a chance to beat a top-tier team more than any other smaller division school. They still have to beat New Mexico, and we all know that division rivals are the most likely foilers. Boise State learned that last night (or actually this morning?). Utah and Boise State were riding high on their previous bowl success to vault them into the top 10. TCU had to work their way up by being that good.
BTW, imagine a team with East Carolina's offense and TCU's defense. That would be a fun team to watch. ;)
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I'm rooting against TCU. If a mid-major was gonna get in, I was hope'n for Boise State. I'm not 100% sure, but it seems more of a cult than a Christian school that TCU goes to(judge'n by wikipedia, which is pretty much always 100% on). If I could pick, I'd like the Ducks to win it, or an 1 loss team.
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i did not. I only specified team names as examples for the general atmosphere of the game. Year in and year out, this subject comes up regardless of the names of the schools involved.
If that's the tack you want to take, then I'll point out that pretty much none of those schools have been placed into championship games in recent years, and Alabama as the most glaring example you mentioned went undefeated last year and won convincingly against a solid Texas team. Another puzzling addition is Oregon State, who has not been invited to ANY BCS bowl since 2001, and they won that game.
Allow me to put it in a much simpler argument: my university is making a whole lot more money than yours so I'll say whatever I want to make sure I keep getting more money.
But the Big 6 conferences keep telling us that teams like Oklahoma are far superior to teams like Boise St, Utah, TCU, et al.
Forget it STAMP. There simply is no match for Big Ten arrogance..... except perhaps SEC arrogance. We should scrap the whole BCS set up and just match the top teams in the BigTen and SEC for all the major bowl games from now on. No one else is worthy. I'm not sure why Oregon is even still up there. A one-loss Big Ten team is better than an undefeated PAC10 team any day of the week. ;)
Ironically, I AM Big 10 arrogance. ;)
Boise St. lost...new conversation...
Texas CHRISTIAN University!
May a plague of horned frogs be visited upon the BCS!
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I don't think they're a real Christian school.
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Just because they are not your Christian does not make them not Christian.
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Just because they are not your Christian does not make them not Christian.
My Christian? Not sure what you're saying.
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He was expressing his opinion. No need to go on the warpath.
Also: a school is a lot more than the sum of it's parts.
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He was expressing his opinion. No need to go on the warpath.
Also: a school is a lot more than the sum of it's parts.
I'm not going on the warpath. I just don't know what he's saying.
And i'm not saying Christian schools are better than secular, but i'm not a fan of cults. I'd rather the school be secular.
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The warpath thing was directed toward Alex.
What do you mean about cultish colleges?
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Can you cite the article you're referring to Daniel? I didn't see it when I looked up TCU.
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LOL. This thread started about the Redemption card Balance. I then derailed it into Balance in the BCS. Now Daniel is trying to derail it again into Balance of Religion in Colleges.
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Here's the new thread:
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24570.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24570.0)
To get back on topic here, I don't believe 12-0 mid majors should ever get a shot at a national title without a playoff. If Butler hits that last second 3 and beats Duke last year in march madness, they deserve it. For Boise or TCU to beat 12 chumps and get in is a joke. Boise getting beat by Nevada proves those teams are still not equal to the top teams. Can they get lucky and win 1 game vs a #1 team, yes...Do they deserve that chance to be lucky...no.
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Not to the top teams, but they're all kind of equal to each other on the second tier. Nevada's one loss was to Hawaii, and Hawaii had three losses but to Boise State and two PAC 10 teams. So it's not like Boise lost to one of the chumps; Nevada is top 20 and probably climbing after this. Nevada is lucky that Hawaii automatically plays in the Hawaii Bowl, or else they might not have even got a how-do-you-do from bowl committees even after a win like that.
The shame of it for the WAC is that their three best representatives - Boise, Nevada and Hawaii - are all bolting for Mountain West in a year or two. So the WAC will be trading down and drifting further out of relevance. But if you add those teams to Utah and TCU, suddenly, you have a pretty strong mid-major in the west, probably even something comparable to the Big East.
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Honestly, once conference transition happens, the MW should be an AQ assuming all stays as is talent wise. The Big East and Big 12 can forfeit their bids.
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Blah Blah Blah. Typical haters.
For the record, the Big East is 12-4 in bowl games over the last three years, while the Big Ten is 6-16. The Big Ten doesn't schedule Big East teams, so there is no way of knowing how they would fare head-to-head. You can assume all you want, but until there is a playoff system, you simply cannot say that the Big Ten team would win just because they are a Big Ten team. However, that is the arrogance that I have seen throughout this thread that makes me ill.
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While that is very well true, the Big Ten typically produces better teams. You can't tell me any of the recent Pitt teams would win the majority of games against most recent Penn State teams, for example (though this year it would be a tossup).
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That is the type of generalization that I am talking about. There is no way of knowing whether Penn State can beat Pitt because they do not play each other. There are only the biased assumptions. In fact, the last time they played each other was back in 2000, when Pitt shut out Penn State 12-0.
If we are talking over recent years, I would take a Pitt team with Larry Fitzgerald over any Penn State team.
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For the record, the Big East is 12-4 in bowl games over the last three years, while the Big Ten is 6-16.
So you're going to rate a Rutgers win over UCF in the Beef O Brady Bowl over a Northwestern loss to Auburn in overtime in the Outback Bowl. But the Big Ten is an arrogant conference. That's interesting.
The Big Ten was given two opportunities last year to prove they belonged in BCS games, and they came out on top in both cases. How did the Sugar Bowl go?
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That is the type of generalization that I am talking about. There is no way of knowing whether Penn State can beat Pitt because they do not play each other. There are only the biased assumptions. In fact, the last time they played each other was back in 2000, when Pitt shut out Penn State 12-0.
If we are talking over recent years, I would take a Pitt team with Larry Fitzgerald over any Penn State team.
The only reason those teams went anywhere was because Fitz was that good. The early-mid 2000 Pitt teams were utterly terrible, and on top of that, were poorly coached. Penn St consistantly fielded better teams. Anthony Murelli was no Kerry Collins, but he could easily pick apart the terrible defensive schemes Walt Harris used to run. Wannstedt has improved slightly; he just can't win a big game to save his life.
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So you're going to rate a Rutgers win over UCF in the Beef O Brady Bowl over a Northwestern loss to Auburn in overtime in the Outback Bowl. But the Big Ten is an arrogant conference. That's interesting.
The Big Ten was given two opportunities last year to prove they belonged in BCS games, and they came out on top in both cases. How did the Sugar Bowl go?
LOL. Have I really been arrogant about the Big East? Defending their honor is not nearly the same as the degradation coming from you guys. You still have to look at the bigger picture. Picking on the Beef o' Brady Bowl as your counter example is silly since even you have admitted Big Ten has bad teams too. The argument has been that the Big East does not deserve an automatic bid, even though their bowl record over the past few years has been rather good.
There is a reason that the big conferences have an automatic bid. Teams within their division wreak havoc on even the favorites. If a team is 8-4 overall, but all 4 of their losses come from within their conference, they may be misjudged as a less than stellar team. Knowing how good they would be against a team that they do not play every year is speculation until they actually play. Big East teams play every team in their division every year. Those rivalries will always lead to upsets. There have been plenty of times over the last five years that Big East teams were ranked in the top ten, but lost in the final weeks to division rivals. Those teams still fared quite well in the bowls they were allowed to play in. But, what bowl they end up in is based on an archaic selection process. The Big Ten is still viewed favorably by the media, so they get better bowls. You can't seriously blame the Big East teams for who they get paired up against. That is completely out of their control. If anything, it is a letdown.
In all fairness, I was talking to Daniel, and only used the Big Ten as an example because I did not know exactly where Daniel's loyalties are. He has a Miami Hurricanes logo, but I figured an ACC reference would only be shot down since you view the ACC/Big 12/ Big East in the same light - unworthy.
You already mentioned your disgust for the BCS, but I do not think you realize how skewed against the Big East it really is. If anything, Big Ten fans think it favors the Big East with an automatic bid. But in reality, without the bid, a 10-2 Big East champion could end up playing an also-ran team in a nothing bowl thanks to freebies given to Notre Dame and media scrutiny. However, a 10-2 Big Ten team (even if not a conference champion) is guaranteed a January 1st or later bowl with lucrative payoffs. The Big East has been fighting an uphill battle ever since the exodus of top teams to the ACC. They know their bid is on the line, since that was the threat right after the exodus. However, the condition was that the BCS would be watching the Big East teams' performance in the bowls to decide if they get to keep the bid. So far, the teams have done well in bowls and have kept their bid.
For other conference fans to demand that the bid be taken away anyway is self-serving arrogance. If you really want to prove that the Big Ten is better than the Big East, then schedule games between the conferences. Schedule bowl games between the conferences. Can you do that? No. That decision is based on money and made by a handful of people that we can't remotely persuade. Can Rutgers change the fact that the Beef o'Brady Bowl had the right to select them, and that their opponent would be from C-USA? No. That decision is based on the same factors.
Until a playoff system is instituted, and head-to-head matchups are scheduled, there is no possible way (outside of arrogance) to conclude that Wisconsin would beat West Virginia. The game will not happen, so there is no need to speculate and insult all Big East schools and their fans. That, by the way, is all that you guys have been doing.
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I can't do a whole lot of trash talking as far as my team goes. The "U" isn't the old "U", not even close. As far as conferences go though, I'd take the top six anyday over mid major conferences. If I had to rank them:
sec
big10
big12
pac10
acc
big east
The mid-majors don't deserve to be in any top conferences list ever, uppercut!
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The mid-majors don't deserve to be in any top conferences list ever, uppercut!
Additionally, insulting all the other conferences and their fans continues to be arrogant and unChristlike.
The fact that mid-major teams have found success against major conferences seems to indicate that they deserve more opportunities. There are only a handful of top teams that even schedule the heavy hitters in the mid-majors. Part of that reason is fear. Since scholarship totals are down, smaller schools are fielding better teams with NFL talent. That is why FCS Appalachian State can beat FBS Michigan, albeit on a down year. That is why FCS New Hampshire can schedule an FBS school and beat them five years running. You can't say that they only won because the teams they beat were the in the lower half of the conference. That was the only school who would schedule them. They take what they can get. I actually applaud Michigan for being willing to schedule an FCS powerhouse, rather than an FCS lower half school. However, most of the top half FBS teams only schedule the bottom half FCS schools. They know the potential of scheduling the top FCS schools, and the hit they would take in the BCS if they lost. Fortunately for FBS Virginia Tech, they will still make a BCS bowl even though they lost to FCS James Madison University.
Every team deserves their chance, if they prove themselves. Enough mid-majors have proven themselves over the years, and some of those teams are now in major conferences. In the words of the fans in the Astrodome overlooking the Bad News Bears:
"Let them play."
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Additionally, insulting all the other conferences and their fans continues to be arrogant and unChristlike.
Telling my opinion about college football conferences is unChristlike? I disagree.
Every team deserves their chance, if they prove themselves. Enough mid-majors have proven themselves over the years, and some of those teams are now in major conferences. In the words of the fans in the Astrodome overlooking the Bad News Bears:
"Let them play."
Could you give me some examples of these mid-majors in major conferences?
Also, I'd say let the FCS schools join a real conference, aka one of the top6, and go 2-10 and then they don't have to worry about it. There is a considerable difference in talent between FBS and FCS.
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Telling my opinion about college football conferences is unChristlike? I disagree.
Ah yes. It is OK to be rude and arrogant as a Christian, as long as you are talking about sports. That's not what the Bible teaches. Clearly you are part of some cult.
Could you give me some examples of these mid-majors in major conferences?
Louisville and South Florida for starters, but there will be more next year.
Also, I'd say let the FCS schools join a real conference, aka one of the top6, and go 2-10 and then they don't have to worry about it. There is a considerable difference in talent between FBS and FCS.
Then clearly New Hampshire has the best athletes in the country. ;)
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I don't think I was rude and arrogant. Could you point me to my posts that sounded that way to you? The post with uppercut! was a joke if that one is the one you were going to use. Also, there is nothing wrong with evaluating talent. If a team is better than another team, there's nothing wrong with stating that fact. I never said my canes were the best, or that the ACC was the best. I said that the SEC was the best conference and the Big East was the worst, I don't see that as rude or arrogant.
I could see South Florida winning the Big East within the next couple of years. They're becoming a pretty solid program. I do believe though that they have the advantage of being in the Big East. It seems you believe the Big East is just as good as the other top conferences, but I believe they're probably the worst of the top6. That gives USF a chance to win it and get a BCS game.
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LOL. Have I really been arrogant about the Big East? Defending their honor is not nearly the same as the degradation coming from you guys.
All I have done is state the facts of the matter, so I don't know what is this "degradation" you speak of.
Picking on the Beef o' Brady Bowl as your counter example is silly since even you have admitted Big Ten has bad teams too. The argument has been that the Big East does not deserve an automatic bid, even though their bowl record over the past few years has been rather good.
It's not silly because you counted all wins and losses equal regardless of who the teams are or who they have played. And by the way, that was never my argument, (only) Alex was arguing for greater mid-major inclusion.
There have been plenty of times over the last five years that Big East teams were ranked in the top ten, but lost in the final weeks to division rivals.
You're not quoting anything that doesn't happen to every other conference in football. The SEC is particularly brutal. But there are plenty of uber one-loss Ohio State teams over the years (1996 being the most glaring example) that lost their shot at the title due to that one loss. The best way not to drop out of the top ten after losing to a division rival, is to beat your division rival.
Those teams still fared quite well in the bowls they were allowed to play in. But, what bowl they end up in is based on an archaic selection process. The Big Ten is still viewed favorably by the media, so they get better bowls.
No, conference teams go to bowls based on contracts that they have with those bowls. A perfect example of this is the WAC; their two big bowl contracts are the Humanitarian Bowl and the Fight Hunger Bowl. But while it looks like Hawaii is going to be the champion of that conference, they won't play in either of those games because they are automatically invited to the Hawaii Bowl every year they are bowl eligible.
In all fairness, I was talking to Daniel, and only used the Big Ten as an example because I did not know exactly where Daniel's loyalties are. He has a Miami Hurricanes logo, but I figured an ACC reference would only be shot down since you view the ACC/Big 12/ Big East in the same light - unworthy.
I don't think the ACC is as good as the Big Ten, from top to bottom, but I think "unworthy" is really an appropriate title to apply here. After all, the ACC improved significantly in recent years when they acquired the three best teams the Big East had at the time - Miami, BC and Va Tech - which by the way is the main reason the Big East isn't as good as it used to be.
You should also note (again) that most of my comments about the declining quality of the Big 12 is that they are losing two schools to other [major] conferences and by all accounts were a hairsbreadth from being decimated to a six-team conference. If these conferences were losing Baylor and Kansas and Villanova and Providence it wouldn't be that impactful. But losing Nebraska or Va Tech is not nearly as easy to absorb. When those teams leave, your conference quality goes down; It's just a fact. If Ohio State or Wisconsin or Penn State left the Big Ten, guess what, they wouldn't be as good without them.
However, a 10-2 Big Ten team (even if not a conference champion) is guaranteed a January 1st or later bowl with lucrative payoffs.
Again I note the nature of existing contracts in bowl games. Plus, I thought you said teams shouldn't suffer for losing tough rival games.
For other conference fans to demand that the bid be taken away anyway is self-serving arrogance.
I'm not sure if anyone else in this thread demanded the Big East lose their bid in the BCS but I'm pretty sure you won't find anything remotely like that in my posts. The only change I have recommended, apart from the abolition of the entire system for a playoff, is that Oklahoma and Notre Dame be banned from any further invites because they're lame and lose all the time.
Until a playoff system is instituted, and head-to-head matchups are scheduled, there is no possible way (outside of arrogance) to conclude that Wisconsin would beat West Virginia.
Well, one way to conclude that might be that Wisconsin has a better record and beat two ranked teams to win their conference, while West Virginia lost their only matchup against a ranked team, and their game against the team likely to grab the Big East bid to the BCS. Facts are not arrogant but can still lead to a reasonable conclusion strikingly similar to the one you consider unreasonable.
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I've got nothing against the Big East, but from purely a record standpoint it seems odd to me that one of these teams will get an automatic BCS bid:
UConn (7-4)
Pitt (6-5)
WVU (8-3, ranked 24th)
Meanwhile, 11-1 Michigan St. and 11-1 Nevada will likely have to settle for a second-tier bowls.
:dunno:
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TCU is heading to the Big East for the 2012-2013 season. If I was Boise State and Utah, I'd be heading to the Big 12, or they are going to get left out.
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I've got nothing against the Big East, but from purely a record standpoint it seems odd to me that one of these teams will get an automatic BCS bid:
UConn (7-4)
Pitt (6-5)
WVU (8-3, ranked 24th)
Meanwhile, 11-1 Michigan St. and 11-1 Nevada will likely have to settle for a second-tier bowls.
:dunno:
An 8-3 West Virginia is FAR better than an 11-1 Nevada, so we can throw that team out of the discussion. :P
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An 8-3 West Virginia is FAR better than an 11-1 Nevada, so we can throw that team out of the discussion.
Looking at WVU's schedule, they don't really have any impressive victories. They lost their only game against a ranked team (LSU). Meanwhile, Nevada beat Boise St, lost a close one to Hawaii, survived a scare against Fresno St. and crushed everyone else they played. If they pull out that game against Hawaii, they are for sure in the Top 10.
That being said, I'm not necessarily arguing they are better than WVU, but I don't think we should throw them out of the discussion so easily.
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An 8-3 West Virginia is FAR better than an 11-1 Nevada, so we can throw that team out of the discussion.
Looking at WVU's schedule, they don't really have any impressive victories. They lost their only game against a ranked team (LSU). Meanwhile, Nevada beat Boise St, lost a close one to Hawaii, survived a scare against Fresno St. and crushed everyone else they played. If they pull out that game against Hawaii, they are for sure in the Top 10.
That being said, I'm not necessarily arguing they are better than WVU, but I don't think we should throw them out of the discussion so easily.
Me and the guy below disagree. WVU had to face a juggernaut of Big East teams whereas Nevada played several Little Sisters of the Poor. ::)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcoacheshotseat.com%2Fcoacheshotseatblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F11%2FGordonGee.jpg&hash=50038b7736eae8875cbdb890ef7c504260faaaad)
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Well, I was speaking generally. I cannot deny that this year, the Big East is a mess. But one bad year should not lead to the removal of an automatic bid. That was not the agreement that the conference made with the BCS.
Schaef and Daniel, I apologize for saying that you guys were being rude. I was juggling discussions between here and another message board that was more sports oriented, and I got confused about who said what. You guys were fine.
Guardian, I agree that those teams are more deserving this year. As a UConn fan, I am excited about the possiblity of a BCS bowl. All we have to do is beat South Florida (which I have to keep quiet because the campus is only an hour away from my house). Admittedly, we are no powerhouse team. We'll be 8-4, which will be the worst record in the BCS bowls. However, we do have the #2 RB in the country, Jordan Todman, who is averaging 145 yards a game and has had several 200 yard rushing games in his career. We have our senior QB back as a starter, after being benched at the beginning of the year for a young stud QB who went and got himself suspended. Interestingly, the senior was our starter for the last two years, and has stepped up for the big wins against Pitt and West Virginia that has fueled our winning streak. Unfortunately, we have to play South FL on the road. We are currently 7-4, but we are 6-0 at home. :-\
Still, if we pull it off, going to a BCS bowl when we have only been in Big East football for five years would be an early Christmas present. ;D
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TCU is heading to the Big East for the 2012-2013 season. If I was Boise State and Utah, I'd be heading to the Big 12, or they are going to get left out.
I forgot about Utah going to be part of the Pac12, Boise State needs to make a move now. There is now no reason to join the MWC, they should join the Big East too. Also, if Notre Dame continues to be decline, I wonder if NBC will pull their TV contract offer if ratings get low, if they do, they'll need to join a top conference too.
The 6 power conferences should have 12 teams each and all have a conference championship.
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Notre Dame plays all their other sports in the Big East. The big money football TV contract is (I believe) the only reason they did not also join for football, but I do not know that for sure.
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Now I DO think that adding Notre Dame to the Big East will be a nice feather in their cap. They can't be down forever, and as they return to prominence and the new adds start pulling recruits like they're actually IN a major conference, the conference as a whole should return to something resembling prominence.
Meantime, their all-to-themselves TV contract and what seemed like an automatic BCS bowl bid for a while were not at all commensurate with their talent. These are NOT the Golden Domers of yore. So coming down a peg would be good for everybody, themselves included.
Brief aside, I think another reason the Domers have stayed independent in football is so they can keep playing what amounts to a rivalry game every week: Michigan one week, a service academy the next week, USC the week after, etc.
I'm not sure what the answer is for the Big 12.
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I'm not sure what the answer is for the Big 12.
Fold.
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As a UConn fan, I am excited about the possiblity of a BCS bowl.
Better make it count this year...TCU is coming to play in a couple years. :)
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/news/story?id=5862368 (http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/news/story?id=5862368)
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Ridiculous. Absolutely Ridiculous.
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If the 6 power conferences had 12 teams each and all 6 had a championship game. The determined top 2 could get byes the first week and the other 4 would square off in a playoff. Those winners play the 2 teams with byes and those winners play for the national championship. All other bowls could be kept for the other teams and these five games would be the regular BCS games.
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The Big 12 does has a championship. The only good teams in the North are Mizzou and Nebraska (who are both inconsistent), while the South continuously provides great games and interesting debate. 2008-2009 comes to mind, with Oklahoma and Texas being tied for first in the South, and although I do agree that BCS rankings are stupid and Texas probably should ahve gone to the title game, I doubt that even they could have beaten Florida (not to mention the bull-crapping refs robbing Gresham of a goal-line TD catch right before the half and a controversial "pass interference" call midway through the 3rd quarter that ended up being the clinching TD for Florida). However, Texas proved themselves not worthy of the BCS title bid the year before which they oh so loudly complained about when they were soundly beaten by Alabama.
My ranking of the divisions in collegiate football are as follows:
SEC/Big 12
All the other conferences who produce one or maybe two top-tier teams.
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I think his point was that all the conferences should have a championship game in the way that the Big 12 does, or the SEC. The Big Ten, for example, does not have a title game because traditionally they have had fewer than 12 teams. The addition of Nebraska next year mandates a title game for them, so we'll start seeing those right away. Unless the Big 12 adds enough teams to actually be 12 again, they won't be required to have a title game starting next year; we'll see whether they keep it or not.
And my point about the Big Ten was that they have three top-ten teams this year and they're adding Nebraska next year, which can only improve their status. The Big 12 is losing two teams and very nearly lost a lot more. That basically leaves them with Oklahoma and Texas, relegating them to the "one or two top-tier team" status currently enjoyed by the Pac 10 and the Big East. So some of this analysis not based only on the present or even the past, but also the very near future for these conferences. The landscape will be changing a lot in the next one to two years, including at least four major conferences and several mid-majors that have made names for themselves in the last five years or so.
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I can see all 6 power conferences being very competitive soon.
The Big East will be getting TCU, which if they continue as they have, they'll be a title contender team, but now we'll see if those perfect seasons would have stood against top programs. I would say TCU helps the Big East to silence some of the "weak" conference talk too. Mostly by me, haha. The Big East still needs to get up to 12 teams though, and start having a conference championship.
FSU and VT are looking a lot better and if the "U" gets going, then the ACC will be what a lot of people thought it would have been a couple years ago.
The SEC will continue to be tough and with Nebraska, the Big 10 will continue to be tough.
USC won't be out that long, I would say they'll be a lot better next year and back to where they were within 2-3 years. So the Pac12, with the addition of Colorado and Utah will be solid as well if Oregon continues to be a powerhouse.
That leaves the Big12. Oklahoma, Texas, and even OK St. can keep that conference going, but they need to get back up to 12 teams.
So, the big 12 needs 2 teams and the big east needs 3 teams. I'd say: Boise State and BYU to the Big 12. Notre Dame, UCF, and East Carolina to the Big East.
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Ah, I see what he was saying now...
I do wish that they would implement some sort of playoff system, as it can be easier to make up a playoff system than it is to make some stupid formula and base your rankings off of some points. I would much rather see a mid-major team go through a series of playoff games and win a title than a team who plays nobodies all season (TCU and Boise, I'm eyeballing you) and wants a Title bid because they're "undefeated". Example: 2008 Sugar Bowl. Hawaii fans were complaining that they should have gotten the Title bid, beings they were the only undefeated in the Top 25. However, they played poopy teams like San Jose State, New Mexico State, and Fresno State (and also demolishing 2 FCS teams) and got destroyed themselves by the Georgia Bulldogs. Georgia led 24-3 at HALF, and ended up winning 41-10.
I would argue that Texas A&M is on the upswing in the Big 12 South, but it could be one of those fluke seasons where they got lucky a lot. While I'd agree that Boise would possibly move to the Big 12, I would also tend to think that maybe TCU would come too (since they're in Texas). Is TCU for sure moving to the Big East?
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Is TCU for sure moving to the Big East?
Yes. They already made the official announcement. In fact, they are joining the Big East in all sports, which is interesting since the Big East fell apart five years ago thanks mostly to the basketball vs. football debate.
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Boise St to the Big 12 is a great idea. I think that's exactly what the Big 12 needs--a team that so many people already enjoy watching and rooting for, plus it gives Boise St ample opportunity to prove it belongs with the big boys.
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Boise St to the Big 12 is a great idea. I think that's exactly what the Big 12 needs--a team that so many people already enjoy watching and rooting for, plus it gives Boise St ample opportunity to prove it belongs with the big boys.
Should create more rivalries than just Texas/OU and OSU/OU. But Texas is rivals with pretty much anyone who's ever beat them.
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I root for AL and JSU.(yeah never heard of the other one have you?)
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I root for AL and JSU.(yeah never heard of the other one have you?)
Jerky State University?
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jacksonville state unversity.
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I'm not trying to diss the Big Ten, so please do not take this the wrong way. I simply think it is important to note that a 7-4 Fresno State beat a 6-5 Illinois team last night. It is one thing to argue that an undefeated WAC team beating a 3-9 Big Ten team is meaningless, but if a mediocre WAC team beats a mediocre Big Ten team, then I think that illustrates a parity between the conferences overall. There may still be a separation between a Big Ten Champion and a WAC Champion, but I think they deserve a chance to find out.
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It's easy to see that the little guy will have less and less of a chance with the new conference structures. If you want a chance to get into a BCS game, you're going to have to be in a power conference probably starting after next year.
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I'm not trying to diss the Big Ten, so please do not take this the wrong way. I simply think it is important to note that a 7-4 Fresno State beat a 6-5 Illinois team last night. It is one thing to argue that an undefeated WAC team beating a 3-9 Big Ten team is meaningless, but if a mediocre WAC team beats a mediocre Big Ten team, then I think that illustrates a parity between the conferences overall. There may still be a separation between a Big Ten Champion and a WAC Champion, but I think they deserve a chance to find out.
It's also worth noting that 1-7 (SEC record) Ole Miss beat Fresno State. So that settles that.
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And Ole Miss lost to Jacksonville State..... so that seems to settle nothing, unless you are suggesting that FCS teams are better than SEC teams, in which case you are further proving my point that every team should get a chance to prove themselves.
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Any team who thinks they can hang with the likes of Oregon, Auburn and Wisconsin this year is welcome to try. But I think they might not have been watching today's games very closely.
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UCONN wins!!! Woo-hoo! ;D
Remember the name: Dave Teggart
UConn's kicker has been stellar all year. He made a 53 yard FG late in the game, then a 52-yarder with seconds left to win the game. He is sure to be in the NFL. He has made many 50 yarders throughout his career, and is particularly good in the clutch.
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Nebraska's kicker Henery has a heck of a leg on him... Watching Henery last night was like watching Nick Lowery during kicking practice.
And, Oklahoma locked in their Fiesta Bowl bid with their 23-20 win over Nebraska. OU outscored Nebraska 23-3 after the first quarter, and outscored them 9-0 in the second half.
Now let's hope that the Fiesta Bowl's hatred of OU won't be as fierce this year as it has in previous years... :/
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Now let's hope that the Fiesta Bowl's hatred of OU won't be as fierce this year as it has in previous years... :/
Since they are likely playing against UConn, I hope it is. :o
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I hope they do a better job setting up the regular BCS games. Instead of having a bunch of one side games, match the teams according to talent and not BCS bowl affiliation.
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Now let's hope that the Fiesta Bowl's hatred of OU won't be as fierce this year as it has in previous years.
Maybe they could try winning every once in a while.
I hope they do a better job setting up the regular BCS games. Instead of having a bunch of one side games, match the teams according to talent and not BCS bowl affiliation.
Some conference affiliations are locked in, e.g. Wisconsin in the Rose. But having Oregon and Auburn in the title game frees up a slot in both the Rose and the Sugar for other teams to play.
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TCU is locked to the Rose Bowl, too, due to the quirky non-AQ rules. Virginia Tech is locked to the Orange Bowl.
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Now let's hope that the Fiesta Bowl's hatred of OU won't be as fierce this year as it has in previous years.
Maybe they could try winning every once in a while.
Their season records are just fine, it's their bowl record that's poopy. I blame the refs.
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Fortunately, I won't need to waste any of my time watching bowl games. I'll know who wins the national championship anyway. If there are lots of sirens coming from fire engines to go put out burning cars here in my home town, then I know who won. :P
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Their season records are just fine, it's their bowl record that's poopy. I blame the refs.
It's their performance in BCS bowls that I was referencing specifically.
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I blame the refs.
Schaef blames the scorekeeper. ;)
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I blame the refs.
Schaef blames the scorekeeper. ;)
I blame everyone but the team. Because it is definitely not their fault AND THEY DESERVE TO WIN EVERY GAME!
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I blame the refs.
Schaef blames the scorekeeper. ;)
I blame everyone but the team. Because it is definitely not their fault AND THEY DESERVE TO WIN EVERY GAME!
I blame the NCAA for allowing such ridiculous plays like the "statue of liberty" and the "hook and ladder". :P
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I suppose they're not any better or worse than a WR Reverse or WR Pass or RB Pass... Greatest trick plays ever in Madden!