Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Deist on July 19, 2010, 03:49:00 PM
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First let me say that I love that Cactus has been going back into the old sets and reprinting characters to make them relevant again. I think it has been their best move so far. I am curious to what people think about adding Characters from the Apocrypha, either for or against. If we can add Saints I don't see why we can't add cards from the Apocrypha. I come from a protestant background and I for one think it would be fascinating.
We pull many of the Emperor Characters and Saint Patrick from non Canonical sources. Why not?
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I'd be against. I wasn't too happy with Josephus either...
and the only saint that was added was Patrick, another move I wasn't too happy with (but the reference is biblical and it fits, so I'm okay with it).
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i agree with wraith.
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But why? I am wondering your reasoning.
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I would be ok with some but not others. The reason for most people not wanting this type of thing is probably multi faceted. For instance Tobit is an apocryphal book. In this book, an angel gives a man a recipe that will repel a demon from his future wife. While this isn't impossible from God's standpoint, I think many would look at stories like this and feel that they lean more toward witchcraft and the like. Many of the apocryphal books contain stories that aren't powerful, from a spiritual view.
There are good ones though, The Maccabees is a great set of books. We already have Antiochus from that story (even if it is a Josephus reference). Bel and the Dragon is a neat addition to the Daniel stories. The book of Jasher has some great stuff in it.
I think the biggest problem is that they are not undisputable stories. History backs up most of what is in Cannonized Scripture. While I may not understand why some books didn't make it, I will not argue with the scholars who prayed diligently for guidance in putting together the cannon.
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I'd be all for it in 20 years when we've been releasing 3 sets a year and we're out of material from the Bible.
Seriously, I wouldn't care. If Redemption started pulling cards from a children's cart...ok, bad example. If Redemption started pulling card references from Shark Boy and Lava Girl, I wouldn't care as long as the game was still getting better each expansion. But a lot of people don't see that way, so no reason to rock the boat when we've got years and years and years of material in the Bible.
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I'd be all for it in 20 years when we've been releasing 3 sets a year and we're out of material from the Bible.
Seriously, I wouldn't care. If Redemption started pulling cards from a children's cart...ok, bad example. If Redemption started pulling card references from Shark Boy and Lava Girl, I wouldn't care as long as the game was still getting better each expansion. But a lot of people don't see that way, so no reason to rock the boat when we've got years and years and years of material in the Bible.
wyn. I'd love to see how that goes down..
"I make a rescue attempt with Shark Boy!"
"I block with Elmer Fudd!"
"I play 'Batman defeats the Joker' and discard you!"
"I play 'Bowser's Revenge' to interrupt and set you aside."
"But wait! my Earth Bender lost soul negates set aside cards!"
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I am sure it is possible to squeeze more out of the Bible than they already have, I would just like the possibility of some unforeseen characters... Raphael and Tobit.
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I am sure it is possible to squeeze more out of the Bible than they already have, I would just like the possibility of some unforeseen characters... Raphael and Tobit.
The Ninja Turtle, or Renaissance artist? Either one would be a great expansion.
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aren't they going to make a Saint Valentine soon?
~Jayden
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aren't they going to make a Saint Valentine soon?
~Jayden
As far as I know no.
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Raphael the angel... He is in The Book of Tobit.
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that would be epic
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aren't they going to make a Saint Valentine soon?
~Jayden
Hey, that would go perfectly with my Marriage card. :D
I don't think I would be totally against using cards from the Apocrypha because it's an interesting idea, but I feel like it would just be a slippery slope for Cactus to start on. It would also be difficult to try and explain to a little kid why the reference on the card isn't in their Bible.
~Britta
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I agree that it would be a slippery slope. If you actually go through the Bible and see what they have used so far, there is so much more to be used and referenced. There is even still a book of the Bible that has not been touched yet not to mention large parts of many other books. I think that the exceptions that Cactus has made have been neutral to the game at best, and will likely not be made in the future...but then again I am not Rob Anderson so I can't say that for sure... ;D
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what book hasnt been used yet?
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One of the Johns (1, 2, or 3)...I think 2 John.
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I feel like Redemption has already been "soiled" by extra-Biblical references, so I honestly wouldn't even care if they used some more non-Canonical stuff. But I agree with those who say we don't really need to do this just yet, since plenty of Bible verses and characters remain for cards to be made from for years to come.
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Sure there may be many more references and character who could be used....but how many are relevant? Is cactus going to start using characters from the long genealogies in Bible? Those characters do not really add anything to the game except a name to stamp an ability on.
The Old testament is full of stuff that would be considered witchcraft or ritualistic. I fail to see how The book of Tobit has anything controversial outside the fact that it is non-canonical.
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The Old testament is full of stuff that would be considered witchcraft or ritualistic.
OT has a lot of interesting stuff in it, but one needs to know how to take it. You can't just marry a random prostitute because Amos (I think) did.
I fail to see how The book of Tobit has anything controversial outside the fact that it is non-canonical.
That's enough for me. I like playing a game based on the Bible, not the Bible, and stuff. The current additions are semi-ok because they were characters that had influence on biblical events, but weren't specifically mentioned.
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I fail to see how The book of Tobit has anything controversial outside the fact that it is non-canonical.
That's enough for me. I like playing a game based on the Bible, not the Bible, and stuff. The current additions are semi-ok because they were characters that had influence on biblical events, but weren't specifically mentioned.
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...Thats interesting...I am pretty sure many of those emperors and definitely Saint Patrick had influence on Christianity...but not on biblical events mentioned in the bible. Saint Patrick lived way after events of the Bible.
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The emperors martyred many a Christian (Just look at FooF)
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The emperors had an effect on the biblical events, but not Patrick.
And kittens, you mean Hosea.
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The emperors had an effect on the biblical events, but not Patrick.
And kittens, you mean Hosea.
Yes it was Hosea. Also, It seems to me that if we have an Antiochus card, we should have a Judah Maccabe card.
The fact that Antiochus uses a Josephus Reference is strange to me. I would have used the reference in the book of Daniel. He isn't mentioned by name, but Bible Scholars world wide acknowledge him as the ruler mentioned.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
I think this is the reference, I might be wrong though.
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The feet is Rome. Antiochus was part of the Bronze loins (Greece).
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I think it's best to just stick with the canon books.
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Tobit- Multi-colored evil character */* Negate and discard Garden Tomb. (*= # of Garden Tombs destroyed.)
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The emperors martyred many a Christian (Just look at FooF)
So did many emperors following them
I think it's best to just stick with the canon books.
To late. We already have used non canon sources. I am not saying add the Koran or the book of Mormon. I am just say we could broaden the scope of cards to include a large portion of Christians who also have the Apocrypha as a part of their Bibles...like Catholics.
Tobit- Multi-colored evil character */* Negate and discard Garden Tomb. (*= # of Garden Tombs destroyed.)
Tobit wouldn't be an evil character. But I like where you were going anyway.
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I am not saying add the Koran or the book of Mormon. I am just say we could broaden the scope of cards to include a large portion of Christians who also have the Apocrypha as a part of their Bibles...like Catholics.
I see where you are coming from here, but I think it's best we just stick with the stuff we know everyone is comfortable with, especially while that source is still abundant.
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I am not saying add the Koran or the book of Mormon. I am just say we could broaden the scope of cards to include a large portion of Christians who also have the Apocrypha as a part of their Bibles...like Catholics.
I see where you are coming from here, but I think it's best we just stick with the stuff we know everyone is comfortable with, especially while that source is still abundant.
+1
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I don't see a need to add Apocryphal references into what we have, we still have tons of stuff to use, not to mention mountains of old cards that could use reprints.
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I am not saying add the Koran or the book of Mormon. I am just say we could broaden the scope of cards to include a large portion of Christians who also have the Apocrypha as a part of their Bibles...like Catholics.
I see where you are coming from here, but I think it's best we just stick with the stuff we know everyone is comfortable with, especially while that source is still abundant.
But is it? I think cactus will do a great job reprinting some older characters to make them relevant to the game with the disciples set and may one or two more sets. I just don't want to see them really scraping for characters by pouring through the genealogies. I think a lot can be said when a verse correlates to a card. You can't get that in the middle of a list of David's genealogy.
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I just don't want to see them really scraping for characters by pouring through the genealogies.
They have already done this with many of the priests.
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To be fair, like 10 Priests in the Bible actually have stuff about them other than their names.
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Sounds like we should have had just ten priests.
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Sounds like you should have spent your money and created a card game based on the bible.
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Sounds like you should have spent your money and created a card game based on the bible.
Market is too small. I do enjoy redemption but from a rules standpoint...to much errata and a lot of wording inconsistencies. I can't blame them. I don't think they ever expected it to be as popular as it has become.
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define 'popular'.
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define 'popular'.
Popular (in this case) is having a fan base that is large enough to buy enough product to keep the card game profitable (or at least breaking even) so that the game stays alive for 15 years (which only 1 other game has done).
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Only one other COLLECTIBLE CARD game has done this (to be clear)...and in such a niche market such as Christian games. It really is quite impressive how God has used the initial efforts of one guy (Mr. Anderson) to bring so many gamers from around the country together in real, authentic*, community.
*Obviously the connection you have with others around this game and in general is up to you as an individual so don't break me down on this one too hard!
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The Old testament is full of stuff that would be considered witchcraft or ritualistic.
OT has a lot of interesting stuff in it, but one needs to know how to take it. You can't just marry a random prostitute because Amos (I think) did..
A I was Hosea. B If God TELLS you to like he did Hosea, you BETTER do it. ;) C God used that as an example for how the people were treating him. He also had one prophet (Kudos to who can name who it is) make "miniatures" to show what he was going to do to israel. He does quite a bit of "weird" stuff to make a point, but it is always very drastic.
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define 'popular'.
Popular (in this case) is having a fan base that is large enough to buy enough product to keep the card game profitable (or at least breaking even) so that the game stays alive for 15 years (which only 1 other game has done).
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. Magic is the longest running TCG. Pokemon and Yugioh I believe are still hanging in there but no game has stood the telling of time like Magic.
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A I was Hosea. B If God TELLS you to like he did Hosea, you BETTER do it. ;) C God used that as an example for how the people were treating him. He also had one prophet (Kudos to who can name who it is) make "miniatures" to show what he was going to do to israel. He does quite a bit of "weird" stuff to make a point, but it is always very drastic.
Ezekiel.
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define 'popular'.
Popular (in this case) is having a fan base that is large enough to buy enough product to keep the card game profitable (or at least breaking even) so that the game stays alive for 15 years (which only 1 other game has done).
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. Magic is the longest running TCG. Pokemon and Yugioh I believe are still hanging in there but no game has stood the telling of time like Magic.
But to be fair its not like Yugioh or Pokemon have even been around for 15 years yet, so they very well could be but they didn't come out early enough. But I will say one of the biggest advantages Redemption has to combat is "smaller target audience" is that we have built such a good community so that people not only enjoy playing the game but enjoy being with the people who play the game
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The Old testament is full of stuff that would be considered witchcraft or ritualistic.
OT has a lot of interesting stuff in it, but one needs to know how to take it. You can't just marry a random prostitute because Amos (I think) did..
A I was Hosea. B If God TELLS you to like he did Hosea, you BETTER do it. ;) C God used that as an example for how the people were treating him. He also had one prophet (Kudos to who can name who it is) make "miniatures" to show what he was going to do to israel. He does quite a bit of "weird" stuff to make a point, but it is always very drastic.
Yeah, definately Ezekiel
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define 'popular'.
Popular (in this case) is having a fan base that is large enough to buy enough product to keep the card game profitable (or at least breaking even) so that the game stays alive for 15 years (which only 1 other game has done).
+1
Couldn't have said it better myself. Magic is the longest running TCG. Pokemon and Yugioh I believe are still hanging in there but no game has stood the telling of time like Magic.
But to be fair its not like Yugioh or Pokemon have even been around for 15 years yet, so they very well could be but they didn't come out early enough. But I will say one of the biggest advantages Redemption has to combat is "smaller target audience" is that we have built such a good community so that people not only enjoy playing the game but enjoy being with the people who play the game
I can't say I have enjoyed playing with some people in every card game I have played. I have played Magic, Pokemon, and Yugioh with people while not enjoying playing redemption with others. I enjoy Magic because the play group is generally more mature. I agree with you on the fact that redemption has a very strong long distance relationship with its players that is not generally shared with other games. I think the small community contributes to that.
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I think Redemption has been a successful as it has simply because the primary reason people play Redemption (in comparison to other CCG/TCGs) is that it has positive content (to Christians). When the market fell out of other TCGs/in general, it didn't hit Redemption as noticeably because the same people still see it a providing the same benefits. Perhaps it is a little harder to get some of the cards, but people still spend their money because they view Redemption as a positive benefit in their lives, not jsut a fun hobby. In comparison, when the market dropped on other games, people decided to stop funding a hobby - a fun hobby, but still a hobby nonetheless.
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To my knowledge Magic only went through one period of time where people stopped playing (Kamigawa block). Actually I would disagree with you on your hobby point. I have seen (unfortunately so) people who struggle to keep their hobby in their life. Any card game can have positive benefits. Having fun with people is what games are about. I think that redemption and every other card game has that benefit. The reason you don't see a huge decline in Redemption at any point is you only lose a few players at any one moment. There is not masses of people who are playing to show and dramatic signs of people quitting the game.
To me redemption will always be a game. It is a fun game and there is much less competition. It provides me with no benefits that other games did not provide.
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...there is much less competition....
Obviously, you've never attended a tournament.
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That's fine for you Deist, but the large majority of people here would state that one of the defining reasons they play Redemption is because it provides Spiritual context and tends to increase their knowledge of the Bible. It's been stated numerous times by numerous people to be the case. That's why they don't give it up until absolutely necessary. It's not just a hobby, it's spiritual training to them.
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The feet is Rome. Antiochus was part of the Bronze loins (Greece).
Thanks for the correction Pol.
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That's fine for you Deist, but the large majority of people here would state that one of the defining reasons they play Redemption is because it provides Spiritual context and tends to increase their knowledge of the Bible. It's been stated numerous times by numerous people to be the case. That's why they don't give it up until absolutely necessary. It's not just a hobby, it's spiritual training to them.
in addition to that, Redemption only releases one expansion per year, which allows for people to play and not spend tons of money to be competitive.
and Deist, come to a national tournament or an MN tournament. the fellowship there is the best I've ever seen. and competition? heh. get on RTS and sign up for ROOT. you'll experience a small part of good competition.
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Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
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Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
yes, it does. I'm obsessed with Sauron. I think he'll rule the world someday, so I serve him until the day some hobbit will stab me in the back causing the lamest person alive to have the chance to kill me.
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Good, so I'm not the only one.
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...there is much less competition....
Obviously, you've never attended a tournament.
Dude when a local Friday night magic has more people than a Redemption tournament regionals I think there is less competition in Redemption. I was not saying that nobody good plays. Just a lack players.
That's fine for you Deist, but the large majority of people here would state that one of the defining reasons they play Redemption is because it provides Spiritual context and tends to increase their knowledge of the Bible. It's been stated numerous times by numerous people to be the case. That's why they don't give it up until absolutely necessary. It's not just a hobby, it's spiritual training to them.
Dude, several people give up redemption before it is necessary. I gave it up for 3+ years. Others give it up because of lack of time or they get tired of it...just like anything else. While playing redemption can increase their knowledge of the bible...I hardly think that is the reason that they don't give it up until it is absolutely necessary.
@Ringwraith- I would love to make it to a national tournament. This year won't work out due to work conflicts. In the past I have been to SE Regionals and now I am planning to host Tournaments here in Florida. Once again I was not saying there was no competition in Redemption more that their is not as much.
Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
You are the first person to ask. My old forum name was Gabriel Arch. Yes my name reflects my current position on religion though not completely.
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Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
Does yours?
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Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
Does yours?
Good, so I'm not the only one.
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...there is much less competition....
Obviously, you've never attended a tournament.
Dude when a local Friday night magic has more people than a Redemption tournament regionals I think there is less competition in Redemption. I was not saying that nobody good plays. Just a lack players.
I think he was understanding you're meaning as, "there aren't many people good at Redemption," rather than "not many people play redemption so there are fewer people to play against." At least, that's how I read it at first.
That's fine for you Deist, but the large majority of people here would state that one of the defining reasons they play Redemption is because it provides Spiritual context and tends to increase their knowledge of the Bible. It's been stated numerous times by numerous people to be the case. That's why they don't give it up until absolutely necessary. It's not just a hobby, it's spiritual training to them.
Dude, several people give up redemption before it is necessary. I gave it up for 3+ years. Others give it up because of lack of time or they get tired of it...just like anything else. While playing redemption can increase their knowledge of the bible...I hardly think that is the reason that they don't give it up until it is absolutely necessary.
He's not saying that the only reason people play Redemption is that it's some sort of holy game that they must have. Only that for many--though not all--players, Redemption is much more than a hobby, or even an excessively fun hobby. I know a TON more about the Bible because of Redemption, and I've met quite a few fun people, some of which I have a stronger-than-average relationship with though I've only met them once or twice (or never, in the case of Professor Underwood).
Just out of curiosity, does your name reflect your position on religion?
You are the first person to ask. My old forum name was Gabriel Arch. Yes my name reflects my current position on religion though not completely.
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How can you be kind of a deist. Isn't that like being kind of a giraffe? Please explain.
The feet is Rome. Antiochus was part of the Bronze loins (Greece).
Thanks for the correction Pol.
Any time. I know you'll take it as help from Æcademic to Æcademic, rather than me being a smarty pants. And if you ever catch me saying that the Bible doesn't support Dragons and Unicorns being real, I expect you to come out swinging ;)
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@Pol
Don't want to quote that whole thing so addressing them in order
-Thats why I clarified myself.
-My point was that kind of stuff happens with other games too not just redemption (minus the learning of Biblical knowledge)
-I don't believe in religion. I believe in God. My views on him align with the Christian interpretation more so than a Creator who just watches without interference.
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I've only met them once or twice (or never, in the case of Professor Underwood).
Actually I think we did meet briefly at Nats in Columbus, OH. As I recall you didn't come to the whole thing, and were just hanging out one evening while people were playing fun games like Bang, Roborally, and Star Wars:Epic Duels (which I was in). It was really just in passing, and I'm not surprised that you don't remember me :)
And if you ever catch me saying that the Bible doesn't support Dragons and Unicorns being real, I expect you to come out swinging ;)
OK, dragons I get (from Job 41), but where's the unicorns?
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In Narnia
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I've only met them once or twice (or never, in the case of Professor Underwood).
Actually I think we did meet briefly at Nats in Columbus, OH. As I recall you didn't come to the whole thing, and were just hanging out one evening while people were playing fun games like Bang, Roborally, and Star Wars:Epic Duels (which I was in). It was really just in passing, and I'm not surprised that you don't remember me :)
And if you ever catch me saying that the Bible doesn't support Dragons and Unicorns being real, I expect you to come out swinging ;)
OK, dragons I get (from Job 41), but where's the unicorns?
Unicorns are mentioned in Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Deut 33:17, Job 39:9-10, Psalm 22:21, Psalm 29:6, Psalm 92:10 and Isaiah 34:7.
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Actually I think we did meet briefly at Nats in Columbus, OH. As I recall you didn't come to the whole thing, and were just hanging out one evening while people were playing fun games like Bang, Roborally, and Star Wars:Epic Duels (which I was in). It was really just in passing, and I'm not surprised that you don't remember me :)
Yeah, Sven is definitely easier to remember seeing than most others. ~6 feet of person topped with ~5 feet of hair is fairly noticeable.
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Back on topic:
My vote on the Apocrypha is "Iffy." As in "if" Rob, the Elders, and others wish to remove Redemption from being a Bible-based card game. To have an entire expansion devoted to books/stories outside of the Bible would taint the "Bible-based" foundation of Redemption.
I have no doubt that many of the people mentioned in theses other books/manuscripts/etc did in fact exist, but I'm more critical on the historical accuracy of said "other material." The emperors of Rome and the leaders of other countries definitely existed; and the things they supposedly "did" have been shown to have occurred as well (Historically speaking). (There definitely needs to be a Caesar Augustus card if there isn't one already).
The books that "made it" into the Bible speak of people who had very close relationships with God and show how God loves His chosen people (The Israelites), and how He loves those He sent His Son to die on the cross for (Traditionally, "Christians"). These other "non-Canonical" books don't sound like that was their main purpose for being written. I don't often hear of the things that God did through them to further His Purpose, and this makes me skeptical of their need to be "related" to the Bible itself. However, utilizing the characters into the game of Redemption could add to the mechanics of the game, but I'd be very hesitant about calling Redemption a "Bible-based" collectible card game if that did/does occur.
-C_S
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A brief history lesson for those who may be newer to the boards:
A couple of years ago, when St. Patrick was introduced, a lot of people were concerned about the extra-biblical-ness of good old St. Patty. They thought that this could lead to everyone from Augustine to Pat Robertson (naw, just kidding about that last one) becoming Redemption cards. Rob assured everyone that St. Patty was not going to bring about a landslide of extra-biblical characters, it was more of a special promo release which was introduced at tournaments on March 17. There was mention that certainly no characters would be made from the era of The Great Schism of 1054 or beyond, because the various saints from after that time are not recognized as such by all branches of Christianity, and Cactus didn't want to engender divisiveness. I am certain that the Apocrypha would be avoided for this same reason.
Also, for what it's worth, Rob has professed to be a Roman Catholic, though I don't know his stance on the Apocryphal books. But I know he has committed to making Redemption continue to be a Bible-based game, and the only extra-biblical characters either had direct or prophetic impacts on people of the Bible, or were St. Patrick. All of the Josephus emperors lived and ruled previous to 70 AD, and even a couple that haven't been made (Vespasian and Titus) could potentially be made as they fulfilled the prophecy of the Temple's destruction in that year. Tradition states that Nero killed Paul, and Antiochus was the one who brought about the Abomination of Desolation prophesied in Daniel.
Now, I don't think it would be a stretch to have characters like Judas Maccabees, but having references from the Apocryphal books might be a tad too controversial for some. I think sticking with Josephus when extra-biblical references are warranted is fine, and is probably all the farther outside the canon that Cactus should go. And I am fairly certain that will be the case now and in the near future.
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Unicorns are mentioned in Numbers 23:22, Numbers 24:8, Deut 33:17, Job 39:9-10, Psalm 22:21, Psalm 29:6, Psalm 92:10 and Isaiah 34:7.
I'd never really looked into that before, but I'm not convinced those are the type of unicorns that go to candy mountain with Charlie. Some seem to think they may be things as strange as Narwhals or an extinct animal called a Elasmotherium. A more reasonable guess would be a rhinoceros. But I think the most likely thing would be a wild ox who's horns join together to form 1 large horn instead of 2. In other words...
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi301.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn66%2FMark_Underwood%2FWildOx.jpg&hash=9e835d4de3515e901a143ac7f73adce98c7592fa)
instead of...
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gotouring.com%2Fhowdy%2Fbook1%2Fimages%2F152-Ind-gaur.jpg&hash=c6296a6f4e84bd7b2449708e32f7b1696efe332f)
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You and I are no longer friends. I'm going to have 'Lets go to candy mountain CHARILE' in my head all day now.
On a related note I totally want the first pic as a pet - It looks like it has a helmet - I'd enter it into gladiator style competitions.
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A brief history lesson for those who may be newer to the boards:
A couple of years ago, when St. Patrick was introduced, a lot of people were concerned about the extra-biblical-ness of good old St. Patty. They thought that this could lead to everyone from Augustine to Pat Robertson (naw, just kidding about that last one) becoming Redemption cards. Rob assured everyone that St. Patty was not going to bring about a landslide of extra-biblical characters, it was more of a special promo release which was introduced at tournaments on March 17. There was mention that certainly no characters would be made from the era of The Great Schism of 1054 or beyond, because the various saints from after that time are not recognized as such by all branches of Christianity, and Cactus didn't want to engender divisiveness. I am certain that the Apocrypha would be avoided for this same reason.
Also, for what it's worth, Rob has professed to be a Roman Catholic, though I don't know his stance on the Apocryphal books. But I know he has committed to making Redemption continue to be a Bible-based game, and the only extra-biblical characters either had direct or prophetic impacts on people of the Bible, or were St. Patrick. All of the Josephus emperors lived and ruled previous to 70 AD, and even a couple that haven't been made (Vespasian and Titus) could potentially be made as they fulfilled the prophecy of the Temple's destruction in that year. Tradition states that Nero killed Paul, and Antiochus was the one who brought about the Abomination of Desolation prophesied in Daniel.
Now, I don't think it would be a stretch to have characters like Judas Maccabees, but having references from the Apocryphal books might be a tad too controversial for some. I think sticking with Josephus when extra-biblical references are warranted is fine, and is probably all the farther outside the canon that Cactus should go. And I am fairly certain that will be the case now and in the near future.
That is a well formed argument.
My counterargument would be that many books, Gnostic and those pertaining to the Apocrypha, existed prior to the Great Schism as well. Many Gnostic works were around in the time of Paul and early 2nd century.
Now I would never go as far as to say add Gnostic works to Redemption, (Theologically many of the Gnostic works are very opposed to current church traditions), but like the Apocrypha they both have significant historical relevance to the early church. The apocrypha does not contain incredibly radical and contradictory material to Christianity (why would it be in Catholic Bibles?). I just think it would add some additional books that are relevant to many Christians and would add to this growing game.
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How do you think it would add to Redemption?
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You and I are no longer friends. I'm going to have 'Lets go to candy mountain CHARILE' in my head all day now.
On a related note I totally want the first pic as a pet - It looks like it has a helmet - I'd enter it into gladiator style competitions.
Is this the start of the pokemon thread all over again :P...just kidding...
On topic, there are several on this board and elsewhere that have very conservative beliefs, and the Apocrypha just does not jive with it. Just like some people have conservative beliefs on what is demonic, sorcery, and the like. As such, rather than to stir up strife, we stick with common ground...and that's why the Canon is used...
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A at post above:I for one do not have conservative beliefs.
B at Deist:Finally someone (excluding colin *sniff* RIP and Pol (or Sven the viking)) is on the boards who isn't overly and extremely conservative!
C at Ring Wraith: My spiderman kills you're hulk daggon it.
D at Deist: we should talk about beliefs sometime I'd like to. also you should come july 30/31 to SE regionals I would like to meet you.
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How do you think it would add to Redemption?
Solely on terms of material and knowledge. It might even give protestants more insight into catholic beliefs and traditions. If I recall correctly I believe our full tradition of the fall of Satan and his angels comes from the book of Adam and Eve.
You and I are no longer friends. I'm going to have 'Lets go to candy mountain CHARILE' in my head all day now.
On a related note I totally want the first pic as a pet - It looks like it has a helmet - I'd enter it into gladiator style competitions.
Is this the start of the pokemon thread all over again :P...just kidding...
On topic, there are several on this board and elsewhere that have very conservative beliefs, and the Apocrypha just does not jive with it. Just like some people have conservative beliefs on what is demonic, sorcery, and the like. As such, rather than to stir up strife, we stick with common ground...and that's why the Canon is used...
We know why Canon is used. I understand the controversy surrounding the use of the Apocrypha. But we have already used non-Canonical sources. I am just saying, within a certain degree, use more.
@ xCaLeBx- Alas I will not be able to make it to SE Regionals nor Nationals due to work conflicts. I do plan on starting to host tournaments in Florida starting late August. You can hit me up any time with a pm or email. You can even start a new topic about what you would like to discuss and I would participate.
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C at Ring Wraith: My spiderman kills you're hulk daggon it.
wait, how'd a sidebattle happen? I have Pot of Manna activated. that's a staple (for the few that have it) nowadays. I'm so lucky to have come across one, I only payed $47 for it! I feel kinda bad for the old guy I ripped off, but he was my age when it came out!
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
played on who? Spiderman is a hero. :P
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
played on who? Spiderman is a hero. :P
its a new TC in Disciples ;)
Yea Colin Jr. is bach!
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It's the new territory LuG thats coming out ;) it's not OP at ALL!
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
played on who? Spiderman is a hero. :P
its a new TC in Disciples ;)
Yea Colin Jr. is bach!
Caleb is not Colin Jr. only a wannabe.
It's the new territory LuG thats coming out ;) it's not OP at ALL!
that'd be better then DoN, IMO. since you could pick off Lampy.
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
played on who? Spiderman is a hero. :P
its a new TC in Disciples ;)
Yea Colin Jr. is bach!
Caleb is not Colin Jr. only a wannabe.
Incorrect i was a wannabe ( emphasis on was )
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lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
lying unto god my friend.....lying unto god.
played on who? Spiderman is a hero. :P
its a new TC in Disciples ;)
Yea Colin Jr. is bach!
Caleb is not Colin Jr. only a wannabe.
It's the new territory LuG thats coming out ;) it's not OP at ALL!
that'd be better then DoN, IMO. since you could pick off Lampy.
to the first post: BUZZZZZ wrong. I am not a wanna be rather a different style of troll.
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I am sure it is possible to squeeze more out of the Bible than they already have, I would just like the possibility of some unforeseen characters... Raphael and Tobit.
The Ninja Turtle, or Renaissance artist? Either one would be a great expansion.
They should definitely do some TMNT expansion.... That would be the bomb.
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I play Christian suing another! Donatello vs Raphael ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh
BOOM...HEADSHOT
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B at Deist:Finally someone (excluding colin *sniff* RIP) is on the boards who isn't overly and extremely conservative!
What am I, Uncle Sam?
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lol veryy sorry I fixed it
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B at Deist:Finally someone (excluding colin *sniff* RIP) is on the boards who isn't overly and extremely conservative!
What am I, Uncle Sam?
The Vice Prez Pol!