Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Open Forum => Off-Topic => Topic started by: ejberkenpas22 on August 21, 2009, 11:38:05 PM
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There have got to be some baseball fans in here! I love sports forums and since this is in off topic it should be legitimate to post! It is fun talking sports with friends. So I am a Yankee fan and am pretty excited this year that they finally are showing signs of being able to go the distance. And it is beautiful seeing them sweep the red sox and then beat them 20-11 in Fenway!
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I don't post as much as I used to, but I feel like I have to post in this thread.
GO RED SOX.
YANKEES ARE TERRIBLE.
End of post.
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Haha...well if the Red Sox were in the Yanks situation and yanks in the Red Sox i'd say the Red Sox stink even though I know full well they were better...but now the Bo-sox are all old and decrepit and the Yankees are younger and talented. The two teams swapped and now hopefully the yankees can bring home a couple pennants while they have the roster they have. Watch out for the buccos though! 6 years from now they could be a competitor! Maybe even have a winning season! Dare to dream!
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This thread is provocative.
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This thread is provocative.
??? Seriously?
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You're a teenager and you're taking a math teacher seriously?
I wish you were in my class. ;)
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YANKEES STINK!!!
GO BOSTON RED SOX!!!
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You're a teenager and you're taking a math teacher seriously?
I wish you were in my class. ;)
Haha...well if it were anything like math classes I had in HS i wouldn't do any of the homework haha. It was too much work for HS. And as it turns out I made the right decision.
YANKEES STINK!!!
GO BOSTON RED SOX!!!
And please keep this to a discussion not just close minded statements that you clearly know are not true. WHY do the yankees stink?
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Here are my random statements....
MAUER WILL WIN MVP. NOONE ELSE IS EVEN CLOSE.
GO TWINS.
WE HAZ THE BEST 3-4 HITTERS IN THE GAME.
Tex and Arod haz nothin
Utley and Howard both fail
Pujols don't work, son
WE HAZ THE BEST CLOSER
Paps aint nuttin' compared to Nathan
Mo is overrated
CARLOS GOMEZ IS THE FASTEST RUNNER IN THE GAME. TOO BAD HE JUST CAN'T GET ON BASE
On a side note, I know why the Red Sox have lost the last million games to the Yankees. After Ortiz was connected to roids the Yankees realized the Sox's championship was tainted, so Ruth won't let them win for another 86 years.
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FWIW, I am a Red Sox fan, but I am not a Yankees hater. Right now I think the last five games between the Sox and Yanks is "reaping what we sowed" when Sox fans were getting arrogant about winning every game this year against the Yanks prior to the All-Star break. Sometimes I wish Red Sox Nation would cool off the anti-Yankee propaganda. I'm old enough to remember 1978. Sitting in the bleachers of Fenway park watching a great year crumble away was no fun. But the lesson to be learned is that things change quickly, and no lead is big enough.
With that said, though, I know the Red Sox will bounce back. We needed a reality slap to get us refocused. Adding Billy Wagner to the bullpen will be a plus.
MAUER WILL WIN MVP. NOONE ELSE IS EVEN CLOSE.
That will depend on how the team finishes. Guys like Evan Longoria could still be in contention if their team finishes strong.
On a side note, I know why the Red Sox have lost the last million games to the Yankees. After Ortiz was connected to roids the Yankees realized the Sox's championship was tainted, so Ruth won't let them win for another 86 years.
By this logic, every championship over the last 20 years is "tainted." Besides, Ortiz and Manny were only part of the puzzle. Curt Schilling's bloody sock won the first championship in 2004, and we all know he didn't use any "medications" - not even a bandaid.
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Mauer and Morneau are GREAT! Morneau got robbed of a starting all-star job. He was clearly the best 1B in the American League at the time. Teixeira has certainly made a statement since then though and A-Rod is one the the best batters to ever play the game. Matsui is solid when healthy and Posada is just the man. CC is comfortable now with the system and burnett is coming into his own and you gotta love Pettite pitching well. Mariano Rivera is the best closer in the game...Nathan comes in CLOSE CLOSE second. Papelbon is a jerk. Twins should be doing a lot better. You look at their lineup compared to the Tigers and White Sox then you would think the Twins would be in 1st. But they are hurting from Liriano's inability to come back from injury. Scott Baker is starting to pick it up and the loss of Garza and Johan two years ago hurt.
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Papelbon is a jerk.
And please keep this to a discussion not just close minded statements that you clearly know are not true.
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Papelbon has a hot head...after his first year when he was realized to be a dominant starter did he not throw a fit that he was made into a starter and he whined saying he was too good for just a closing job.
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Hmmmm.....so you don't see your bias. Either you can avoid the negativity or you cannot. Choose one, and don't get upset when others choose the same.
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MAUER WILL WIN MVP. NOONE ELSE IS EVEN CLOSE.
That will depend on how the team finishes. Guys like Evan Longoria could still be in contention if their team finishes strong.
Usually the MVP comes from a team in the play offs, but that is never the case if your having a season like Mauer. Mauer is flirting with a .400 BA, .650 SLG, 191 OPS+ (which are both UNHEARD OF, those are TED WILLIAMS quality, who is within the top 3 hitters of all time). Even if the rays win it all, Mauer and Pujols will get the MVP unless Longoria/Fielder bat .600 and slug .750 until the end of the season, and even then Mauer still has the positional advantage....
By this logic, every championship over the last 20 years is "tainted." Besides, Ortiz and Manny were only part of the puzzle. Curt Schilling's bloody sock won the first championship in 2004, and we all know he didn't use any "medications" - not even a bandaid.
That was a joke... ::). I actually don't feel any championship is tainted, all the best players have always cheated. Walter Johnson used a spit ball, Babe Ruth corked bats, Hank Aaron took amphetamines, etc.
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Hmmmm.....so you don't see your bias. Either you can avoid the negativity or you cannot. Choose one, and don't get upset when others choose the same.
I was annoyed at his closed minded comment saying Yankees stink and Red Sox rule...that is a pointless and annoying thing to say. I elaborated and gave facts about Papelbon. those are two different things.
And yes Mauer if he keeps this up will definitely be discussed for MVP but look atthe other guys in contention...how bout Teixeira having a great year, Youkilis if he heats up could pose great numbers...Longoria is definitely a highly probable recipient...even someone like Morales on the Angels who has single handedly kept them in contention in the absence of Hunter and Guerrero.
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And yes Mauer if he keeps this up will definitely be discussed for MVP but look atthe other guys in contention...how bout Teixeira having a great year, Youkilis if he heats up could pose great numbers...Longoria is definitely a highly probable recipient...even someone like Morales on the Angels who has single handedly kept them in contention in the absence of Hunter and Guerrero.
Mauer
380 BA
450 OBP
650 SLG
191 OPS+
Plays the most valuable non-pitching position
extra points for a very strong arm, hampers base running
Longoria
275 BA (105 below Mauer!)
360 OBP (90 below Mauer)
520 SLG (130 below Mauer!)
126 OPS+ (65 below Mauer!)
Plays a mid-value non pitching position
Youkilis
305 BA (75 below Mauer!)
420 OBP (30 below Mauer!)
550 SLG (100 below Mauer!)
146 OPS+ (45 below Mauer!)
extra points for playing multiple positions
loses points for being owned by Porcello
Texiera
280 BA (100 lower than Mauer!)
380 OBP (70 lower than Mauer)
560 SLG (90 below Mauer, and he plays in Yankee Stadium! A single in the metrodome can be a HR in the stadium)
142 OPS+ (49 below Mauer!)
Plays the least valuable position
I'll post the other stats in a sec. My hand are cold so I'm typing slowly
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Mauer is MVP. He's a catcher. He's currently .30 up on the best AVG in a season for a catcher. If he does not win, it's a travesty.
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But you know how sports go...you can be as good as you want but if your team doesn't do anything then you aren't gonna be considered. Unless the Twins make a decent run he won't get MVP.
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But you know how sports go...you can be as good as you want but if your team doesn't do anything then you aren't gonna be considered. Unless the Twins make a decent run he won't get MVP.
The Twins could lose every game from now till the end of the season, and if Mauer continues his pace will win it. Easily.
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I posted some stats of your other possible contenders. Mauer is clearly dominant, Youkilis coming in second.
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That is a big if for Mauer...he has that 2 month long break going for him because most catchers around this time are tired and their batting is struggling...but Mauer has a whole 2 months on them but still will tire out eventually...other fielders don't tire as quickly. I bet it comes down to Longoria, Tex, and Youkilis. NL will be Pujols hands down.
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I elaborated and gave facts about Papelbon. those are two different things.
You'll have to cite those "facts." Indeed any rookie pitcher who was a lifelong starter will question being forced into a closer. And "hothead" could easily be equated with "excitable," much like Joba Chamberlin. Most hotheads don't do Irish step dancing during rain delays. ;)
With regard to Mauer, if he can keep up his current pace, then I would say there is no question. Keeping an average that high will be tough, though. Several hitters have flirted with .400, but 163 games are alot. I remember George Brett's .390 and Tony Gwynn's .394. Brett did win the MVP that year, but the Royals were Division Champs and went to the World Series.
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That is a big if for Mauer...he has that 2 month long break going for him because most catchers around this time are tired and their batting is struggling...but Mauer has a whole 2 months on them
Where are the stats that say this? I'm not sure about this, because I remember Bert Blyleven (Twin's announcer, former pitcher) mentioning that Mauer heated up in the second half last season. I just don't have the '08 Twin SS, so I can't check.
+++++ The Twins have an easier schedule the second half.
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Mauer is certainly on fire right now. ;)
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I am just saying in general catchers get tired more quickly toward the end of the year than other fielders from crouching every game plus they don't get as much batting practice so the season batting tires them out more. Its a fact but not always true. Mauer last year was a case of where that doesn't always hold true. Mauer has it goin for him that he had the first two months of the year off, granted due to injury. I agree he will be considered but i just don't see it happening if the Twins finish third in their division. And honestly IMO I think he will finish the year batting under .360 though I got him on my fantasy team so I hope he jacks 6 HR's a week and keeps batting .380+!!
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I am just saying in general catchers get tired more quickly toward the end of the year than other fielders from crouching every game plus they don't get as much batting practice so the season batting tires them out more. Its a fact but not always true. Mauer last year was a case of where that doesn't always hold true. Mauer has it goin for him that he had the first two months of the year off, granted due to injury. I agree he will be considered but i just don't see it happening if the Twins finish third in their division. And honestly IMO I think he will finish the year batting under .360 though I got him on my fantasy team so I hope he jacks 6 HR's a week and keeps batting .380+!!
I'll just give up on this argument if you refuse to budge.... ::). Here are some things you should ponder though.
The Twins management has been very carefuly not to over-catch Mauer. He will often only catch 7 innings, which is usually when most catchers begin to complain of back soreness and hand numbness; and he spends time DH'ing every week.
The lower stats catchers get near end of games/late in the season are usually do to your hands not opening quick enough, due to the 200 100mph+ balls you catch per game. This affects most, but not Mauer. Mauer has a beautiful swing, and will foul off the pitches those other catchers will strike out on.
Mauer takes the normal amount of BP. If a pitcher needs warmed up, one of the back-up catchers warms him up. I've actually seen the CF warm up a pitcher when all the catchers were in use.
Like I said, even if his stats have a noticeable decline he is still light years ahead of the next candidate. The team he plays for will almost certainly not change the result.
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I don't see why you think I am being so stubborn...I am giving Mauer tons of credit for a great season you just need to be open to the fact that there are other batters on more successful teams having great seasons as well. I agree IF Mauer keeps it up he will be highly considered but he's gotta keep it up and its less likely a catch (even Mauer) will do that over a fielder. Fielders basically only have to worry about batting. Mauer will certainly be batting better than any other catcher in the last months of the season but I am simply countering your overconfidence in Mauer winning...you never know what could happen. What if he keeps in up but Tex finishes the year with 40+ HR's and 140+ RBI's and bats .310+ on a league leading Yankees squad? You just dont know what could happen. Its not that I am not budging from my position because he is certainly a premier batter right now and should he continue on this pace he will be a legitimate contender.
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Atlanta Braves for NL wild card! 11 for their last 16... I can hope. :)
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I don't see why you think I am being so stubborn...
Probably just my bias bleeding through ;). No offense, but it is generally accepted Mauer is light years ahead. He is playing like your Ty Cobb and your Ted Williams, just beasting everything.
I am giving Mauer tons of credit for a great season you just need to be open to the fact that there are other batters on more successful teams having great seasons as well.
Yes, they are having great seasons and deserve props, but Mauer is having an AMAZING season. His season is that compares to the greats. No, Texiera is not a great. Youkilis is not a great. Longoria is not a great. Arod is not a great (maybe his best season....). Ted Williams is a great. Stan Musial is a great. Ty Cobb is a great. They do not compare.
I agree IF Mauer keeps it up he will be highly considered
Again, you need to realize how far ahead he is. If he keeps this up it is guaranteed. If goes cold 'til the end of the season he is still a heavy favorite.
but he's gotta keep it up and its less likely a catch (even Mauer) will do that over a fielder.
Well, last year stats disagree with you. Unless you'd like to give me your numbers I don't believe that.
Fielders basically only have to worry about batting. Mauer will certainly be batting better than any other catcher in the last months of the season but I am simply countering your overconfidence in Mauer winning...you never know what could happen.
I am accounting for that. If he goes Ortiz-cold he will still be considered. If he is injured, he will still be considered.
What if he keeps in up but Tex finishes the year with 40+ HR's and 140+ RBI's and bats .310+ on a league leading Yankees squad? You just dont know what could happen. Its not that I am not budging from my position because he is certainly a premier batter right now and should he continue on this pace he will be a legitimate contender.
Anyone can hit a home run in the Yankee stadium, use slugging. RBI's are a terrible stat. Use real stats, BA, SLG, OPS+, and OBP are the "good" stats, and it is near impossible for Tex to catch up to Mauer in those stats unless Mauer goes 0-300 in the rest of his games.
EDIT: I'll log back in tomorrow to argue some mor. I'm going to sleep now... good nigt 8)
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haha ok! I look forward to continuing this. I agree with all the players you called not greats except A-Rod...i dont see how he is not a great...his HR numbers are GREAT for his age. By the end of his career he will be home run king over barry bonds for sure. He is not having a great year this year but that is because he is battling injury that is harder to recover from than Mauer. I'm pullin for Mauer cuz I do love the guy and he is a spectacular player to watch but I just don't like to see everyone else ruled out with more than a month of baseball left! :P
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Usually I don't want to exclude others from the MVP running, but Mauer is so far ahead. The Twins have about 40 games left, and lets say Mauer gets 3.5 (I believe that is his average) plate appearances each game. That would give him 140 plate appearances for the rest of the season. Mauer walks about once every 8.58 plate appearences (using this year statistics to calculate this), so we subtract 5 games off of that 140. Just add/divide the numbers (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mauerjo01.shtml) and you realize if Joe Mauer plays every game till the end of the season (which he won't), the LOWEST possible batting average he can have is about .280. So, worst case scenario is the others have a small, very small, edge. Does anyone really think Mauer won't get a hit, though?
That is how big his lead his, and not just with BA, but with other categories too.
By "greats", I'm referring to the top of the top. Maybe the best 15 players all time, players like Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Pete Rose EDIT: HAHA, don't know what I was thinking. Pete Rose is NOT a great. I knew he had the most career hits, but I just looked up his stats and was suprised., Babe Ruth, etc. Mauer's best season COMPARES WITH THE AVERAGE SEASON of these people (except Babe Ruth, Babe Ruth's average season was a lot better than Mauer's best season.)
Arod's isn't in there because his BA, OBP, and OPS+ are all notably lower and his SLG are about the same as "the greats". This means that he is/was a good hitter with great power. Home Runs don't prove greatness, especially now that he is playing in the most hitter friendly park in the game, the best stat to judge greatness is OPS+.
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I am neither a Yankees or Twins fan. But I will say this: Mauer and Pujols are the MVP's for each league. It is not even close. Pujols will win by a landslide. Fielder and Reynolds will fight it out for second. Texiera will come in a close second ONLY because he plays in New York. Otherwise, no one comes close to Mauer right now when you look at all the stats and what they do for their team.
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Nothing is a lock until the end of the year. Mauer deserves the strongest consideration, but here is a possible scenario (albeit biased for me):
The Red Sox have been slumping lately and the Yankees are pulling away in AL East. The Yankees had won five straight against the Sox, including last night's 20-11 stomp. Currently the Red Sox are beating the Yankees 12-1 in the 8th. Kevin Youkilis has two home runs and five RBIs. Youkilis gets hot at the end of the season (typically). He currently has .306 BA, 22 HR, and 71 RBI. If he continues hot and ends up .320, 35, 100+ and the Red Sox finish strong and make the playoffs, I would think the media would be hard-pressed to make him a serious contender for MVP, especially since he was a vote-getter last year. Youk plays all over the field, and is gold-glove quality at first and third base (he's lousy in the outfield, but his willingness earns him some votes). He gives 100% every inning of every game (which was why he always butt heads with Manny). He is the kind of guy that the media voters like, and he happens to play on a high profile team.
I don't mean this to sound like Mauer doesn't have better numbers, or give 100%, or makes his team better. Sometimes these votes are more political than anything else. The Twins simply don't get the same airtime or media coverage, which I admit is not fair.
My only point is that "It ain't over 'til the [horizontally challenged] lady sings."
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Oh, wait. I just realized chances are Mauer won't win MVP even though he deserves it. I just remembered 99% of the voters look at RBI's and Homeruns to decide who gets it, and those possibly the two worst stats.
Like I said in my last few posts, there are scenarios where Mauer doesn't deserve the MVP, but do you know how unlikely those are? That would require Mauer going ice cold and Tex/Youk/Longo going Super Mauer-Hot.
Atleast Mauer will win a few MVP awards when he signs with the Red Sox in 2012 ;)1
1 Unless Albert Pujols gets traded, or signed in 2012 by an AL team.
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Atleast Mauer will win a few MVP awards when he signs with the Red Sox in 2012 ;)
I wish. ;)
Mauer has 25 HR and 75 RBI, so I would not consider those "weak" areas. The top HR guy (Pena) will not win the MVP. If the season ended right now, Mauer's biggest competition would be Justin Mourneau. ;)
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Atleast Mauer will win a few MVP awards when he signs with the Red Sox in 2012 ;)
I wish. ;)
If he keeps his pace up next year you know that the Sox or Yankees will give him a massive contract after his MN one ends.1
RBI is the worst stat, I don't even look at it. It measures how good the players in front of you are doing, which is why Mauer only has 75. The 2-spot for the Twins has been batting under .200 before we got Cabrera. Overall it just isn't a good stat, if you want a stat to measure clutch just look at BA, OPS+, and SLG with RISP.
Homeruns make me LOL. The stadium a player plays at really decides how many home runs they hit, a pop fly in Yankee stadium often finds a jet stream and goes out, an identically hit ball would be an out in most other stadiums. Slugging is really the best stat for power.
1There is a small chance that Mauer stays with the Twins (>1%), beings he has the same agent Kirby Puckett had, and said agent was able to keep Kirby around....
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RBI is the worst stat, I don't even look at it. It measures how good the players in front of you are doing
That is so false a statement I hardly even know what to say :P. Put Melky Cabrera is Teixeira's spot in the batting order I guarantee he has at least 20 less RBI's than Teixeira has right now. I agree average is a very good category as is OBP and OPS...but if your statement is right about what RBI's mean then the same guys wouldn't be finishing the year with the most RBI's every year.
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I think salary should be the determining factor. The highest paid player must be best player, right?
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Yes! That would properly place the pirates players all as the worst players in the league! haha
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RBI is the worst stat, I don't even look at it. It measures how good the players in front of you are doing
That is so false a statement I hardly even know what to say :P. Put Melky Cabrera is Teixeira's spot in the batting order I guarantee he has at least 20 less RBI's than Teixeira has right now. I agree average is a very good category as is OBP and OPS...but if your statement is right about what RBI's mean then the same guys wouldn't be finishing the year with the most RBI's every year.
OPS is an awful stat. OPS+ is an amazing stat. RBI's are just awful, obviously the player matters but the team matters too. If you'd put lets say Albert Pujols in Teixera's spot, Albert would probably have 140 RBI's so far.
The reason you see so many repeats is because generally the players that can drive in runs on a regular basis get scooped up by a team that can provide good lead off-two-three hitters for them.
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Eh...I wouldn't really agree with that either. Jason Bay when he was on the Pirates still put up great numbers, Hanley Ramirez puts up great numbers, Adrian Gonzalez, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Braun AND Prince Fielder. RBI's is a stat that measures how clutch you are, and those guys who finish atop the leaderboard in RBI's every year are there because they pull through when there are runners in scoring positions. All the players I named above are on teams who do no have great 1 and 2 batters. The fact that both Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun have as many RBI's as they do when they bat in a row almost single handedly disproves your point. HR's is mostly a matter of strength but the players that constantly hit HR's and couple them with good AVG are quality. A player like Carlos Pena and Adam Dunn...I agree their HR numbers mean next to nothing because they go up and swing for the hills every swing and if they connect its a HR. But a player like Teixeira, Braun, Fielder, Pujols, Morneau, Youkilis, and Chase Utley hit HR's and have good AVG thus their HR's are meaningful. So for HR's it depends but RBI's does measure how clutch you are.
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So if the guys in front of you never get on base, you will never be a clutch hitter. Shame.
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Eh...I wouldn't really agree with that either. Jason Bay when he was on the Pirates still put up great numbers, Hanley Ramirez puts up great numbers, Adrian Gonzalez, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Braun AND Prince Fielder. RBI's is a stat that measures how clutch you are, and those guys who finish atop the leaderboard in RBI's every year are there because they pull through when there are runners in scoring positions. All the players I named above are on teams who do no have great 1 and 2 batters. The fact that both Prince Fielder and Ryan Braun have as many RBI's as they do when they bat in a row almost single handedly disproves your point. HR's is mostly a matter of strength but the players that constantly hit HR's and couple them with good AVG are quality. A player like Carlos Pena and Adam Dunn...I agree their HR numbers mean next to nothing because they go up and swing for the hills every swing and if they connect its a HR. But a player like Teixeira, Braun, Fielder, Pujols, Morneau, Youkilis, and Chase Utley hit HR's and have good AVG thus their HR's are meaningful. So for HR's it depends but RBI's does measure how clutch you are.
RBI's DO NOT measure clutch. A mediocre player that has 200 AB's with RISP will have more RBI's than an Albert Pujols who has 50 AB's with RISP, but Pujols would be much more clutch. USE BA, OPS+, AND SLG WITH RISP TO DETERMINE CLUTCH.
Like I said before, HR's often depend on the park. Justin Morneau could hit a ball off the bagging in the Metredome and it'd be a single, whereas Texiera could hit a pop fly and it hits a jet stream and flies out. USE SLUGGING, IT IS A MUCH BETTER MEASURE OF POWER
Quick Fact: Texiera's road SLG is 150 lower than his home slugging! This proves Yankee stadium is a wind tunnel.
EDIT: I'll post some abbreviations, calculations, and what stats mean in a second incase anyone is getting confused.
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That is not true at all... Slugging % does not show power as much as it does ability to hit gaps and speed. Also... Slugging may be tainted by a bad batting average (that doesn't mean a batter doesn't have power)... or a specific ballpark. For example, Boston's green monster consistantely takes doubles from hitters and makes them singles.
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Whatever...you use your statistics and I will use mine. I think you just want your statistics to all be the best ones to measure because those are the ones that make Mauer one of the greatest players of all time :P If he played every year like this year then yes he would be up there. But since this is probably his best year he's ever had and his others are great only compared to the other catchers, I would never place him in the top greatest players of all time. And I disagree with your scenario about a mediocre player compared to pujols becuase that mediocre player probably with only bat .250 where pujols will bat .330+. Have you seen Pujols' numbers with the bases loaded? They are ridiculous. He is batting a little under .800 with the bases loaded this year. Give him 50 AB's with RISP compared to a mediocre player with RISP he will still have as many if not more RBI's. Look at Adrian Gonzales. He is one the worst batting team in the whole league and he has 73 RBI's. That would be higher on a better team but still he gets those runners home when they are in scoring position and that is clutch.
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That is not true at all... Slugging % does not show power as much as it does ability to hit gaps and speed. Also... Slugging may be tainted by a bad batting average (that doesn't mean a batter doesn't have power)... or a specific ballpark. For example, Boston's green monster consistantely takes doubles from hitters and makes them singles.
Speed does influence your SLG, but your not going to get more than a single in an infield or short outfield hit. I agree that it isn't an accurate reflection of power, but it is a million and a half times better than HR.
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30 or so of his RBIs are himself though. Gonzo hits home runs, so really only half of those RBIs are legit.
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Whatever...you use your statistics and I will use mine.
I'm sorry, but most baseball analysts agree with me. The stats I've been using are a good reflection of a player's ability, whereas yours are far from it.
I think you just want your statistics to all be the best ones to measure because those are the ones that make Mauer one of the greatest players of all time
No, I'm using mine because they are a good representation. Mauer is having a great season, and the players you've been mentioning aren't coming close. Your trying to use statistics that don't prove anything to make their seasons close.
If he played every year like this year then yes he would be up there. But since this is probably his best year he's ever had and his others are great only compared to the other catchers, I would never place him in the top greatest players of all time.
Re-Read my argument from last night. I'm not saying Mauer is among the greats, I'm saying THIS SEASON is among the AVERAGE SEASON of the greats.
And I disagree with your scenario about a mediocre player compared to pujols becuase that mediocre player probably with only bat .250 where pujols will bat .330+. Have you seen Pujols' numbers with the bases loaded? They are ridiculous. He is batting a little under .800 with the bases loaded this year. Give him 50 AB's with RISP compared to a mediocre player with RISP he will still have as many if not more RBI's.
The .250 player would have 4 times as many at bats, 4 * .250 = 1.000 which means Pujols would have to bat 1.000 to TIE the mediocre player.
Look at Adrian Gonzales. He is one the worst batting team in the whole league and he has 73 RBI's. That would be higher on a better team but still he gets those runners home when they are in scoring position and that is clutch.
Exactly. He has a low amount of RBI's yet he is a clutch hitter.
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We will just have to settle on disagreeing :) and 73 isn't low.
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For a player as clutch as he is, yes it is. If he were a yankee he'd have 100. probably
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To change the subject, who do you think is the biggest surprise of the year? The comeback player of the year?
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Brett Farve imo.
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I guess I'll just post all of my awards... ::)
AL
MVP: Joe Mauer. Runner Up: Tex
Cy Young: Beckett. Runner Up: Verlander
Rookie: Beckham. Runner up: Andrus Changed mine mind, Romero is teh runner up!
Comeback: Jarrod Washburn
NL
MVP: Pujols. Runner Up: Hanley
Cy Young: The Freak. Runner Up: Haren
Rookie: Happ. Runner Up: Rasmus
Comeback: Carpenter
Biggest player surprise: Mauer
Biggest moment surprise: Porcello and Youk
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AL
MVP: Tex. Runner up: Mauer
Cy Young: Greinke. Runner up: King Felix
Rookie: Beckham. Runner up: Callaspo He is not a rookie...I guess andrus. AL rookies are weak.
Comeback: Jim Thome or Jerrod Washburn
NL
MVP: Pujols. Runner up: Hanley or Fielder
Cy Young: Lincecum. Runner up: Carpenter
Rookie: Sandoval. Runner up: Happ Tommy Hanson for runner up
Comeback: Carpenter
Biggest Surprise: A tie between Ben Zobrist and Jason Bartlett.
Funniest Monent: Victorino getting doused in beer while making a routine putout. :laugh:
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I found the video of my favorite moment surprise, Youk getting owned by a 20 year old kid :)
EDIT: Link removed, because I just realized the advertisement on the side was kind of naughty :3
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yeah i watched that whole thing on ESPN...that was pretty awesome!
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As promised earlier (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=17514.msg276187#msg276187), here are some stats/abbreviations everyone should know so no one gets confused.
Stats
BA/AVG
Stands for batting average.
It's formula is Hits / At Bats
It is a good to quite good comparison stat. Use it.
OBP
Stands for on base percentage.
It's formula is (Hits + Walks + Hit by Pitch) / (At Bats + Walks + Hit by Pitch + Sacrifice Flies)
It is a good to quite good comparison stat. Use it
SLG
Stands for slugging. It measures your average base per at bat.
It's formula is ([Singles] + [Doubles x 2] + [Triples x 3] + [Home Runs x 4])/At Bats
It is a decent to good comparison stat. Use it in some scenarios.
OPS
Stands for On-Base plus Slugging. It measures your overall performance.
It's formula is On-Base Percentage + Slugging percentage
It is a good to quite good comparison. Do NOT use it.
OPS+
Stands for On-Base plus Slugging adjusted. It measures your overall performance and adjusts it per your ball park.
It's formula is 100 * (On-base percentage / league on base percentage + Slugging percentage / league slugging percentage-1)
It is the best offensive stat for comparison. USE IT OFTEN.
RBI
Stands for run(s) batted in.
Every time to drive in a run, you gain 1 RBI (unless there is an error or you hit into a double play)
It is the worst offensive stat for comparison. Never use it.
HR
Stands for Home Run.
Every time your able to clear all 4 bases on one play without an out or error, you gain one home run.
It is a terrible offensive stat used for comparison. Only use it in very rare scenarios.
ERA
Stands for Earned Run Average
It's formula 9 * Earned Runs / Innings Pitched
It is an ok stat for comparison. Don't use it.
ERA+
Stands for adjusted Earned run average.
It's formula is 100 * (League Era / ERA).
It is a good stat for comparison. Use it.
WHIP
Stands for Walks and hits per inning pitched
It's formula is (Walks + Hits) / Innings Pitched
It is a very good stat for comparison. Use it.
UZR
Stands for Ultimate Zone Rating
It is the number of runs an outfielder saves/costs a team compared to your average player of that position.
It is the best defensive stat for comparison. Use it.
Other terms you should know
RISP
Stands for Runners in scoring position.
Plate appearences with runners on second or third base.
SB
Stands for stolen base
CS
Stands for Caught Stealing.
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That was a good post...I have always wondered how Slugging %age was calculated!
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And do you really think Romero is having that great a year to make him an AL Rookie of the Year? He was doing alright until he got hurt and now he is just awful. In 20 games started, he has given up 126 runs and walked 50 batters! That is horrible! His best statistic is K's. 7 in 125 1/3 IP. Andrus was a good pick. I need to make an edit of Callaspo though...I thought he was a rook.
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I love baseball and have always been a braves fan, but I also like the tigers and any team that pujols is on. I've never been a big fan of the yankees or the red sox, but I will say the yankees do seem to have a lot of class, and I respect that.
Now, I've been out of the loop for a while and haven't watched a game in probably two years (mostly because I don't have cable) but you guys got me wanting to get back into it! Also, long before I even knew about Redemption, I was (and still am) an avid baseball card collector. I'm gonna have to go pull out all my cards now, and try to find someone to go watch a game with!
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Here is a good analysis article on Mauer and Texiera:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9949322/Mauer-gets-the-nod-in-AL-MVP-voting (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9949322/Mauer-gets-the-nod-in-AL-MVP-voting)
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Hmm, lets start a new discussion subject... ::).
Do you think the draft system needs changing? Steven Strasburg was payed $15 million Nevermind, he was signed to a $15 contract. His bonus was 7.5 millionbefore he even picked up a bat for any level of baseball above high school. Should they add a cap like the NFL?
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You mean the kind of cap where Stafford gets 45 million guranteed?
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You mean the kind of cap where Stafford gets 45 million guranteed?
No, change it to one of the other systems. The NHL has caps the team is allowed to offer the draftee. I'd like to see that, and I'd like the amount you can offer be fairly low...
I just don't like the idea of a kid getting payed millions of dollars before they play.
EDIT: I have a new favorite moment! Unassisted triple play! Link: http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6256159 (http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6256159)
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I know! :o I saw that and was completely amazed! First time in 82 years it has ended a game and only the second in history.
Oh and... GO CUBS! Maybe we can win once a month.
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Here is a good analysis article on Mauer and Texiera:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9949322/Mauer-gets-the-nod-in-AL-MVP-voting (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9949322/Mauer-gets-the-nod-in-AL-MVP-voting)
Thanks for that article! I'm glad there was the stats with runners in there, I was having trouble finding them.
Now, Ej, after reading that article do you still think RBI's are a good measure of clutch ;)? Mauer has less RBI's yet the stats show he is dominanting (over a 100 point lead) Tex with RISP, Runners on, and RISP with 2 outs.
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Mauer missed a large part of the first half of the season. His RBI's would be higher had he played those games. So yes RBI's still shows clutch.
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Oh and Teixeira was cold as ice in that time Mauer was out and was batting below .200 . Once he got comfortable with the new team he exploded. I bet if you take both of their stats from the time Mauer came back to now their averages would be a lot close in all those situations.
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So far Mauer has played in 98 games. He has 77 RBI's. That is one RBI every 1.27 (repeating) games.
Tex has played in 119 games and has hit 92 RBI's. That is one RBI every 1.294 games.
Even if Mauer joined earlier, he would still have less RBI's than Tex. Yet, the BA with RISP show Mauer is a better clutch hitter.
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Oh and Teixeira was cold as ice in that time Mauer was out and was batting below .200 . Once he got comfortable with the new team he exploded. I bet if you take both of their stats from the time Mauer came back to now their averages would be a lot close in all those situations.
Mauer has had cold streaks too, son. Mauer went through a massive cold streak with 2 hits after the ASB. Also, the ability to bounce back defines a player.
At this point I think you know I'm right and you just don't want to realize it.
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At this point I think you know I'm right and you just don't want to realize it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...funny.
It wasn't until May 13th when Tex finally started hitting. Mauer didn't have a month+ long cold streak. I wish there was an easy way to calculate tex's avg since May 13. I bet its about .320 at least. He hsa 75 RBI's since then. I understand you can't ignore his first month but you can factor in that Tex has to get used to new teammates and a new team and Mauer had none of that to deal with. He came in comfortable. Tex didn't play well his first month or so with LAA. And yes the ability to bounce back defines a player and look how Tex bounced back from his month+ long cold streak...REAL WELL!
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The Dodgers are a sweet team...i plan on going to a Pirate game when they play the Dodgers. They got an exciting lineup with Manny Ethier Loney and Kemp...not to mention Furcal who is better than this season seems to suggest. Also they got great young pitching in Billingsley and Kershaw! Definitely the sweetest team in the NL!
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At this point I think you know I'm right and you just don't want to realize it.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...funny.
I've provided example after example of why RBI are an awful stat that shouldn't be considered, and instead of agreeing or proving me wrong your trying to throw in variables to attempt to disprove me. Now, answer me this. Who will have more RBI's: Barry Bonds (in his best season) who has 0 at bats with RISP, or some mid-tier hitter who has 200 at bats with RISP. Obviously this is exaggerated, but the same proves true to smaller differences. RBI's ARE THE WORST STAT. PERIOD.
It wasn't until May 13th when Tex finally started hitting. Mauer didn't have a month+ long cold streak. I wish there was an easy way to calculate tex's avg since May 13. I bet its about .320 at least. He hsa 75 RBI's since then.
For RBI's
During his so called "cold streak" he knocked in 19 RBIs in 34 games. That is 1 RBI every 1.78 games, .49 lower than his current ratio. His cold streak cost him 6 RBIs. Yes, his cold streak only costed him 6 RBI's.
For Average
He was batting .202 during his cold streak. 23 hits in 114 at bats. Since then, he as 112 hits in 335 at bats. That is batting about .335, NOWHERE CLOSE TO MAUER. So, even if Tex didn't start out weak (which he did, and you can't disregard that), he would still be trailing Mauer by a massive amount.
I understand you can't ignore his first month but you can factor in that Tex has to get used to new teammates and a new team and Mauer had none of that to deal with. He came in comfortable. Tex didn't play well his first month or so with LAA. And yes the ability to bounce back defines a player and look how Tex bounced back from his month+ long cold streak...REAL WELL!
Your teammates don't affect your hitting, you do. Infact, Tex should have been hitting higher because he moved to a more hitter friendly park. Also, LOL at the Mauer comment. Mauer came in after surgery, he had a much less recent practice than Tex, and he was having back issues.
Now, tell me why you think RBI shows clutchness better than BA with RISP.
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Now, answer me this. Who will have more RBI's: Barry Bonds (in his best season) who has 0 at bats with RISP, or some mid-tier hitter who has 200 at bats with RISP. Obviously this is exaggerated, but the same proves true to smaller differences. RBI's ARE THE WORST STAT. PERIOD.
That is the most unrealistic situation you can't even say that. You are right if the world was crazy unrealistic like your example shows then yeah some mediocre batter will have more RBI's...but in the real world there will never be a situation like that.
We are gonna have to agree to disagree.
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That is the most unrealistic situation you can't even say that. You are right if the world was crazy unrealistic like your example shows then yeah some mediocre batter will have more RBI's...but in the real world there will never be a situation like that.
We are gonna have to agree to disagree.
Obviously this is exaggerated, but the same proves true to smaller difference
I'm fine with agreeing to disagreeing, but this isn't the type of thing that is arguable. Baseball analyst and experts all point to the same point, mine. Your just refusing to accept the fact that Tex is not as clutch as Mauer/RBI's are garbage.
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Bonds would have more RBIs considering half his hits are homers.
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Bonds would have more RBIs considering half his hits are homers.
Actually, Bonds hit 73 homers in his best season. That would be 73 RBI's.
A mediocre player would be batting around .250, with 200 at bats he'd get a hit around 50 times. Assuming the man on second base could score half the time, the mediocre player would have 75 RBI's :)
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GO DODGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Excellent! Another sensible person on the boards. :)
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Hmm... quick! Everyone list the NL Central (or another division of your choice) teams from best to worst WITHOUT looking at the standings.
Heres my opinion...
Albert Pujols
Cubs
Astros
Cardinals
Brewers
Reds
Pirates
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Cards
Cubs
Brewers
Astros
Pirates
Reds
Pujols would be no where without his team...but he is a machine and if anyone could win on their own it would be him!
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How about playoff predictions.
AL
1. NYY 3
4. Tex 1
2. LAA 3
3. Det 0
-----------
1. NYY 4
2. LAA 3
NL
1. LAD 3
3. Stl 1
2. Phi 3
4. SF 1
-----------
1. LAD 3
3. Phi 4
__________
1. NYY 4
1. Phi 3
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1.) Yankees
3.) Twins
Yankees 3-0
2.) Angels
3.) Red Sox
Angels 3-2
_______
1.) Yankees
2.) Angels
Angels 4-3
1.) Dodgers
3.) Pujols
Dodgers 3-2
2.) Philly
4.) Giants
Philly 3-1
_______
1.) Dodgers
2.) Philly
Dodgers 4-2
2.) Angels
1.) Dodgers
Dodgers 4-2
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wait are the angels or yankees gonna be in the WS. You picked LAA to beat the yanks but the yanks to beat the dodgers in the WS...haha
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I edited it 49 seconds before you posted that... ::). When I got down to the WS part I forgot I predicted the Angels beat the yanks
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oh haha well I just missed the edit then. I think its for sure gonna be the yankees, angels, or dodgers. Angels are injury prone ( Vlad, Hunter, Lackey, and Santana). If they can keep them healthy they have as good a chance as anyone. Yankees need to get good pitching in the playoffs...they can't rely on their bats. CC, Joba, and Burnett gotta get on their A game. Dodgers just need to play like they did for the first 70 or so games of the season. They are the best team when playing like that.
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1.) Yankees
4.) Red Sox
Yankees 3-2
...
1.) Dodgers
4.) Giants
Dodgers 3-1
I don't follow baseball as closely as I used to, but aren't both of those illegal first round pairings? The wild card won't play a team from their division in the Division Series, unless it changed since last year.
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Argh. Your right, I wasn't paying attention when I was throwing those together -.-. I was just thinking 1-4 2-3, and not paying attention to divisions
Fixed my predictions.
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good catch...fixed.
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Well, it's not looking too good for the cubbies anymore, but I must say that LA is looking pretty good for the NL.
The AL is hard to choose, but the yankees are starting to step it up.
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All I am going to say right now...is as much as I hate them the Phillies are looking really good. If Hamels can pull himself together and they can bring in Cliff Lee, Cole Hamels, and J.A. Happ into the playoffs as their 1,2, and 3 pitchers. They are going to be VERY hard to beat. They have a power lineup with Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Raul Ibanez, and Jayson Werth. Jimmy Rollins is having a good year, Victorino is good, and Pedro Feliz has had for himself a pretty good year as well. I have overlooked them recently and I have edited my playoff predicitons.
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As evidenced by today, Phillies just wrapped up a second World Series when they signed Cliff Lee. :-\
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Well...today was actually probably one of his not so good games compared to all the ones he has pitched for the Phillies...5 k's is low comparatively haha. But yeah the only reason I will not say they are going to win is because it is so hard to repeat. And right now the Yankees are looking really strong and the potential the Dodgers have is ridiculous. Manny Ramirez is hands down a better and more experienced batter than any single batter on the Phillies. They have solid pitching out of Billingsley, Kershaw, and Wolf. Kurodu has potential too. They have some great young batting as well. You can't rule out the Angels either. This year more than any year I am really excited to see what happens. There are a lot of teams with legitimate chances of winning the WS. And Boston isn't one of them ;D
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If the Dodgers win the Series, I'm a very happy man. :)
If anyone but the Yankees and Red Sox win the Series, I'm a very content man.
The final outcome is not acceptable. ;)
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I was going to kidnap Jeter during the playoffs, but then I realized that would help the Yankees. ;).
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Haha...well I will be very happy if the Yankees or Pirates win :laugh:,
content if anyone but Boston or Philly wins
and I didn't understand what you were talking about in your third line :-\
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I was going to kidnap Jeter during the playoffs, but then I realized that would help the Yankees. ;).
hey now!! Of all the Yankees to hate, he is a good guy and has been a Yankee for life, not one of their "purchases"...and he is very solid defensively! :P
hate A-Rod...he is a jerk haha
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His third line is if the Yankee's or BoSox win...
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he is very solid defensively!
Please tell me that smiley was showing sarcasm...
EDIT: Also, why do you hate Arod?
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hate A-Fraud...he is a jerk haha
Fixed. ;)
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I don't know why people are hating on Arod. Sure, he cheated, but he admitted it. Lots of players have cheated, but it seems that fans don't care about the fact Ruth, Aaron, Cobb, Mays, etc cheated. They only care if Clemens, Arod, Manny, or Mantle EDIT: FORGOT BONDS cheated.
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Well I agree with the boston part...but its been awhile for the yankees! ;D
he is very solid defensively!
Please tell me that smiley was showing sarcasm...
It was showing that what I was saying was not with anger haha...I was very serious about his defense. He is a 3-time Gold Glove winner...enough said.
hate A-Fraud...he is a jerk haha
Fixed. ;)
haha...I like him because he is good and helps the yankees but he is a jerk...demanding 10 million more on top of his already ridiculous 25 million was just absurd. And his reasoning being he wants to be paid like the best batter ever would be paid (even though pujols currently is better).
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He is a 3-time Gold Glove winner...enough said.
Jeter is possibly the worst defensive shortstop playing right now. His UZR is probably -50, which is just awful.
Believe it or not, Gold Glove is an offensive award. I know it doesn't make sense, but look back on the past gold glove winners. The other candidates often have a solid defense (better), but the winner was batting better.
EDIT: Here is another example. Rafael Palmeiro won a gold glove in the year he played about 20 GAMES.
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So you will probably say Jack Wilson is poor defensively, Derek Lee is poor defensively, Freddy Sanchez is poor defensively...there is just no winning with you. I bet you are the only person I will ever know who thinks Jeter is awful defensively. You are just so biased against the Yankees methinks...
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I'm posting the truth. The Gold glove usually goes to the most popular player at that position. I'm not being bias, I'm stating the stats. Jeter happens to have a -32.8 UZR. The AVERAGE UZR is 0. So, Jeter is well below average on defense.
You've been bias like crazy (Jeter defense, Tex over Mauer, etc). No offense, but you seem to know nothing about baseball. You refuse to recolonize the fact that RBI's are a terrible stat, you are not admitting defeat because of your bias, you refuse to accept the fact awards mean nothing, etc.
Also, when I googled "Derek Jeter Fielding" this was the first result: http://www.nypost.com/seven/02162008/sports/yankees/study_claims_jeter_is_worst_fielding_sho_97934.htm (http://www.nypost.com/seven/02162008/sports/yankees/study_claims_jeter_is_worst_fielding_sho_97934.htm)
EDIT: I fixed the link.
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lol thats kind of like search google for "french military victories" and clicking "im feeling lucky".
biased about tex yes, jeter no. I simply said he is a great fielder and 95% of experts I guarantee would agree with me. That is not bias that is truth.
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biased about tex yes, jeter no. I simply said he is a great fielder and 95% of experts I guarantee would agree with me. That is not bias that is truth.
95% of experts and analysts agree UZR is the best measure of defense. 0 UZR is average. Jeter has -32.8 UZR
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Also, here is the second result. They also agree Jeter stinks at defense.
http://www.slate.com/id/2195149/ (http://www.slate.com/id/2195149/)
Here is the third result, it also says Jeter is one of the worst.
http://baseballguru.com/articles/analysismikehoban03.htm (http://baseballguru.com/articles/analysismikehoban03.htm)
These are a few more down, because there was two results that just showed his stats and no explanation.
http://www.fangraphs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4735 (http://www.fangraphs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4735)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_weisman/02/03/defense.metrics/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_weisman/02/03/defense.metrics/index.html)
Want me to go on? All of these are reliable sources, especially baseballguru.
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"I'm the worst?" Jeter said when confronted with the numbers. "I don't think I would say that. But I couldn't really care less what some mathematical equation comes out with." "How do you rank defensive shortstops?" Jeter said. "I don't see how a formula can evaluate how somebody plays.” "You get a strikeout pitcher on the mound as opposed to a ground-ball pitcher, it's going to affect the statistics you use to evaluate defense. So I don't really think you can." -Derek Jeter
see bold
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Nice try son. UZR is only counted when you get a ball hit to the average range of your position. You'll just have a smaller sample, and with his long career that won't really make a difference.
Also, it is very rare for a strike out pitcher to get more than 12 strike outs, and ground ball pitchers usually get a few. We are really only talking about maybe 20-25% lower sample numbers, and the yankees don't have all strike out pitchers. So maybe 5% lower numbers, max.
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alright you win
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Wow. This thread degraded quickly.
ejberkenpas, just a thought.... if you don't want people to make negative generalizations about the Yankees, then stop making negative generalizations about the Red Sox. Negativity breeds negativity.
Rawr, sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. There are many intangibles that only show up during the game while you are watching it. I am a lifelong Red Sox fan, but Derek Jeter would have my vote for an all-time team. The best example I can give goes back to a playoff game back in the 2000-2003 date range. The Yankees were struggling in a certain series. The opposing team had a runner in scoring position and got a hit that would drive the run in. The throw from the outfielder was way off, toward the first base side. Jeter was backing up the play on his own intuition. He was able to cut off the throw and make an amazing relay to home to get the runner out.
The Yankees won that series. The stats will only show one assist in one game, but that assist was one of the most amazing plays I have ever seen.
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Just my two cents... Jeter deserved the Gold Gloves he got... back when he got them. I would have to agree that Jeter is now in the bottom 5 for defensive shortstops in the game currently. He has lost reflexes and a lot of speed. Still proving he can hit though!
Playoff Predictions:
AL
1.Yanks - 3
3. Tigers - 1
2. Angels - 2
4. Rays - 3
NL
1. Phillies - 3
3. Dodgers - 0
2. Cardinals - 1
4. Braves - 3
CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES
AL
Yanks - 4
Rays - 2
NL
Phillies - 3
Braves - 4
WORLD SERIES
Yanks - 4
Braves - 1
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Wow. This thread degraded quickly.
ejberkenpas, just a thought.... if you don't want people to make negative generalizations about the Yankees, then stop making negative generalizations about the Red Sox. Negativity breeds negativity.
Rawr, sometimes numbers don't tell the whole story. There are many intangibles that only show up during the game while you are watching it. I am a lifelong Red Sox fan, but Derek Jeter would have my vote for an all-time team. The best example I can give goes back to a playoff game back in the 2000-2003 date range. The Yankees were struggling in a certain series. The opposing team had a runner in scoring position and got a hit that would drive the run in. The throw from the outfielder was way off, toward the first base side. Jeter was backing up the play on his own intuition. He was able to cut off the throw and make an amazing relay to home to get the runner out.
The Yankees won that series. The stats will only show one assist in one game, but that assist was one of the most amazing plays I have ever seen.
Well, I don't mind negativity towards the yankees, just as long as they are backed up by an argument. Agreed about Jeter and your argument about how numbers dont say everything. A players skill isn't always shown by numbers. Great example btw.
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Derek Jeter would have my vote for an all-time team.
... before Ozzie Smith, Honus Wagner, Arod, etc?
As for the intangibles, you have to realize they go the other way too. I've seen Derek Jeter refuse to charge a ball and therefore he hurries his throw and is unable to throw out the runner many times, and that often leads to said runner scoring. I've seen Jeter attempt a jump-throw when he has time to grip the ball and deliver a good throw to first, which often leads to an error.
(Directed to R Cousin)
Jeter has always been this bad at defense. 2004 (his first gold glove) was probably his best defensive seasons ever, and he was still below average. 2005 (his second gold glove) was one of his worst defensive seasons ever.
Looking back at my world series predictions, I'm hoping I'm wrong and Pujols makes it to the world series.
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By Pujols you mean St. Louis b/c they would suck if they didn't have carpenter, wainwright, piniero, holliday, or ludwick. Throw Pujols on the pirates and they still suck and have 18 losing seasons in a row.
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Pujols is already a team by himself.
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Well as long as you give credit to St. Louis as a team. Because that is unfair to say Pujols is their whole team. Because they would be no where without the players I named earlier.
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The other players are just figments of your imagination. Pujols pitches every day, and he outruns the ball to go and catch it. Occasionally he'll decide to give up a hit so it doesn't look fishy.
Our brains just can't understand such awesomeness and athletic ability, so we create and "see" other players (such as Carpenter, Holliday, Ludwick, etc) to explain it.
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:rollin:
And all this time I thought........wow. I am speechless.
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Anyone else see the Giants Rockies game? That was sick.
Tied 1-1 going into the 14th.
Giants get a couple triples and a couple walks to score 3 runs.
Rockies come back with a grand slam!
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Yeah that is about as exciting as a baseball game can get!! Unless of course it happens in game 7 of the World Series haha
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Looks like the Rockies are poised for another playoff run to the Series. :D
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The Rockies overtaking the Dodgers would be EPIC.
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Anyone else see the Giants Rockies game? That was sick.
Tied 1-1 going into the 14th.
Giants get a couple triples and a couple walks to score 3 runs.
Rockies come back with a grand slam!
Yes, I saw it. I'm so sad.....
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... before Ozzie Smith, Honus Wagner, Arod, etc?
Yes. Ozzie Smith was an awesome fielder who made spectacular plays. I remember his best years.
Honus Wagner I do not remember. I only know his baseball card is the most valuable one out there.
A-Rod. No, just no.
There are plenty of great shortstops to choose from (like Cal Ripken), but if I had to vote for which player I wish was the shortstop on my team (especially now - list the names of all the great Red Sox shortstops over the last 15 years whose name doesn't spell Ramon backwards), I would choose Derek Jeter over any of them. He has always been outstanding when his team really needed him to be.
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Ugh. Did you guys hear the bad news? Jake Peavy is being called up to make a start against the Yankees
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When it comes to shortstops Honus Wagner would be my choice for my all-time team. Ernie Banks would be my backup. Jeter would make my Top 10, though.
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Hmm. Lets just post our all time teams!
*Note* I'm just doing this off the top of my head, so these probably aren't too accurate/well picked.... :p
SP 1: Walter Johnson
SP 2: Roger Clemens
SP 3: Cy Young?
SP 4: Randy Johnson
SP 5: Sandy Koufax? Not really sure about number 5.
Catcher: Johnny Bench
Backup: Mike Piazza
First Base: Lou Gherig
Back Up First Base: Jimmie Fox
Second Base: Joe Morgan
Backup: Hornsby
Third Base: Schmidt
Backup: Matthews
Shortstop: Honus Wagner
Backup: A-Rod
Left Field: Ted Williams
Back Up: Stan Musial (I think he was left field)
Center Field: Willie Mays
Back Up: Uggh. I don't know if I want Tris Speaker or Cobb... I'll go with Cobb
Right Field: Babe Ruth
Back Up: Hank Aaron
Releif Pitchers
Mo
Wilhelm
Gossage
Eckersley
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Ugh. Did you guys hear the bad news? Jake Peavy is being called up to make a start against the Yankees
Why is this bad. Oh and GO BUCCOS! Walk off homer to beat the dang Phillies!
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Why is this bad.
Could be because I'm a Twins fan and therefore I want the White Sox to fail. Could be because I like Peavy and having an above average pitcher make his first start back in the majors against one of the best offensive teams is a recipe for disaster, especially when he is moving from one of the most pitcher friendly parks to one of the most hitter friendly.
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SP 1: Walter Johnson
SP 2: Sandy Koufax
SP 3: Bob Gibson
SP 4: Christy Matthewson
SP 5: Nolan Ryan
Catcher: Johnny Bench
Backup: Mickey Cochrane
First Base: Lou Gehrig
Back Up First Base: Jimmie Foxx
Second Base: Roger Hornsby
Backup: Nap LaJoie
Third Base: Mike Schmidt
Backup: George Brett
Shortstop: Honus Wagner
Backup: Ernie Banks
Left Field: Ted Williams
Back Up: Stan Musial
Center Field: Willie Mays
Back Up: Mickey Mantle
Right Field: Babe Ruth
Back Up: Hank Aaron
Releif Pitchers (yeah, I agree with yours although Bruce Sutter was untouchable for a few years)
Mo
Wilhelm
Gossage
Eckersley
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Awesome! Sweet clutch hitting by Young in the ninth to push us past the Oriels! Twins now have a 5 game winning streak!
The Twins love to come back and taking the division when it is near impossible. We tied the White Sox, so now the Tigers should be getting scared...
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Why is this bad.
Could be because I'm a Twins fan and therefore I want the White Sox to fail. Could be because I like Peavy and having an above average pitcher make his first start back in the majors against one of the best offensive teams is a recipe for disaster, especially when he is moving from one of the most pitcher friendly parks to one of the most hitter friendly.
Oh...well I sure am happy and hope he pitches GREAT the rest of the season because I've been holding him on my fantasy team for awhile now! I could use another good pitcher going into the playoffs!
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Don't hold your breath of Peavy. The home park of a pitcher affects their stats greatly, and Peavy's ERA and WHIP will almost certainly go up due to this.
On a side note, has anyone else noticed Cliff Lee lately? Since being traded to Philly, he has posted an ERA of .68 with a WHIP of less than one.
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Yeah I posed about him about a page ago...the phillies have a legitimate chance of repeating this year. With Lee, Hamels, and Happ going into the playoffs they could beat anyone. Hamels just needs to start pitching like what he is capable of.
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Phils don't have a fair chance if they continue to hand the ball to Brad Lidge when the game is on the line.
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That is true...he was great last year, I don't know what happened...maybe throw Moyer or Park in there...I'm sure they could throw one solid inning, though they may not be used to that th inning playoffs pressure. Oh well, I don't mind Lidge being bad. It just means the Phillies lose more games. Hey you are from minnesota do you happen to know Maury, Ashley, and/or James Berkenpas?
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I'd be surprised if he was able to repeat last year. In the play offs, every team is going to be good... if you have a lead in the 9th, you need to keep it.
No, I don't know any of them.
Also, Greinke struck out 15 tonight :D
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Yeah Greinke could still be the AL Cy Young...his beginning of the season pace slowed down significantly but still his numbers are great!
They were/are part of the Minnesota playgroup...they probably aren't there very often which is why you don't recognize them.
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There is more than one play group in Minnesota. I go to Austin, the southern most one.
I didn't predict Greinke winning the Cy Young because the award often goes to someone who has a good W-L record. Its not fair if you play for a weak offensive team (such as the Royals), same scenario with The Freak.
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How about Russell Branyan for suprise player of the year?
I know he is only hitting .251 but that is his second highest batting average of his career (he is a .234 career hitter). So does anyone really expect him to hit really well. He also had a .303 average going into July with almost 250 ABs under his belt. He also has set career highs in ABs (422), HRs (31), and RBI (76). The HRs are 2nd in the AL, and he has hit more a Safeco than away. Seattle is know as one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the game. He also has played 100 games in the field (the first time since 2002). Yes he has 10 errors which is the most but that is only one more than Carlos Pena and Albert Pujols (which are both considered good fielders). He also has a better fielding percentage than Hank Blalock and Joey Votto.
The only reason I say Branyan is a surprise is because nobody would expect him to do any of this. If you told me he had a .300 average going into July, I would tell you he only had 100 ABs and only faced right handed hitters.
So there is my little spill about a guy who deserved to go to the All-Star game and doesn't get much love!
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There is more than one play group in Minnesota. I go to Austin, the southern most one.
I didn't predict Greinke winning the Cy Young because the award often goes to someone who has a good W-L record. Its not fair if you play for a weak offensive team (such as the Royals), same scenario with The Freak.
Usually the case with Lincecum except for the Giants are actually good. I still think if Greinke pitches out the year well he will be a god contender. There aren't many really stand-out pitchers in the AL like the NL with Lincecum, Carpenter, Haren, C. Lee, and Josh Johnson. Beckett or Verlander are the best in the AL and they are not that stiff competition for Greinke for the Cy Young. That is a toss up.
They are in Minneapolis so that makes sense.
How about Russell Branyan for suprise player of the year?
I know he is only hitting .251 but that is his second highest batting average of his career (he is a .234 career hitter). So does anyone really expect him to hit really well. He also had a .303 average going into July with almost 250 ABs under his belt. He also has set career highs in ABs (422), HRs (31), and RBI (76). The HRs are 2nd in the AL, and he has hit more a Safeco than away. Seattle is know as one of the most pitcher friendly parks in the game. He also has played 100 games in the field (the first time since 2002). Yes he has 10 errors which is the most but that is only one more than Carlos Pena and Albert Pujols (which are both considered good fielders). He also has a better fielding percentage than Hank Blalock and Joey Votto.
The only reason I say Branyan is a surprise is because nobody would expect him to do any of this. If you told me he had a .300 average going into July, I would tell you he only had 100 ABs and only faced right handed hitters.
So there is my little spill about a guy who deserved to go to the All-Star game and doesn't get much love!
Compare him to Ben Zobrist or Jason Bartlett though...neither have had years close to what they are doing this year. They were drafted in the 6th and 13th rounds respectively in their drafts and so they aren't that hyped up. I agree Branyan is a huge surprise but not THE surprise of the year, not with players like Zobrist and Bartlett.
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Usually the case with Lincecum except for the Giants are actually good.
They are one of the worst offensive teams in the game. Let me pull up some stats, I have no doubt in my mind they are bottom 3.
EDIT: Yep, they are in the bottom three with OPS. The only stat of theirs that isn't near the bottom is BA.
I still think if Greinke pitches out the year well he will be a god contender. There aren't many really stand-out pitchers in the AL like the NL with Lincecum, Carpenter, Haren, C. Lee, and Josh Johnson. Beckett or Verlander are the best in the AL and they are not that stiff competition for Greinke for the Cy Young. That is a toss up.
He is a contender, but to me atleast his odds don't seem very good. W-L is a massive part of the Cy Young award, it shows your able to keep your team in the game. It varies from team to team, and often the person who deserves the award is not the most talented pitcher.
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No Zobrist was considered a part-time defensive player, an offensive liability and is crazy good this year. I was just proving that Branyan gets no love ;D
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Branyan doesn't get any love because he hasn't earned it. Hitting .017 points higher than your career batting average is not ultra impressive, and just because you hit a few long balls doesn't mean your a top player. Infact, is SLG is actually LOWER than last year by a MASSIVE .57! His OPS+ is 9 points lower than last year!
His UZR is slightly above average (0.2), so he is no way a "good" fielder. He is a slightly above average fielder.
He shouldn't even be considered for "Suprise player of the year"
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Usually the case with Lincecum except for the Giants are actually good.
They are one of the worst offensive teams in the game. Let me pull up some stats, I have no doubt in my mind they are bottom 3.
EDIT: Yep, they are in the bottom three with OPS. The only stat of theirs that isn't near the bottom is BA.
Their offense has nothing to do with Lincecum's Cy Young chances, and they may be poor offensively but what explains them having a 68-58 record and being only 6 games out of first in their division and 4 out of wild card? They have great pitching and that starts with Lincecum who is very deserving of Cy Young (12-4, 2.43 ERA, 214 k'S, and 1.04 WHIP). They have Cain in that two spot who has been spectacular this year, though at times very lucky. And Zito has proved that he's still got some good stuff left. Jonathan Sanchez puts in some good starts though he is unreliable. Point being they may be poor offensively but they are still doing well due to pitching and been almost impossible to beat at home (40-20 is top 5 in the MLB).
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Their offense has nothing to do with Lincecum's Cy Young chances
It affects his W-L record, which is what is generally looked at for Cy Young. So, yes, their offense affects it massively.
and they may be poor offensively but what explains them having a 68-58 record and being only 6 games out of first in their division and 4 out of wild card?
Great Pitching.
They have great pitching and that starts with Lincecum who is very deserving of Cy Young (12-4, 2.43 ERA, 214 k'S, and 1.04 WHIP).
I said he deserved it. I'm also saying there will be other contention due to his record, which is 12-4 mainly because he is a giant. Had he been a Red Sock or Yankee, he'd likely be 16-2 or better right now.
They have Cain in that two spot who has been spectacular this year, though at times very lucky. And Zito has proved that he's still got some good stuff left. Jonathan Sanchez puts in some good starts though he is unreliable. Point being they may be poor offensively but they are still doing well due to pitching and been almost impossible to beat at home (40-20 is top 5 in the MLB).
I'm talking about the Cy Young. Not play offs.
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I don't really get what you are arguing...you say he is deserving (IMO hands down) and I say he is deserving...you bring up their poor offense as if that is hurting him which obviously its not because he is 12-4. What is your point with Lincecum? Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? :P
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I'm confused what we're arguing about. I'm saying that, if I alone got to pick who won the Cy Young, I'd pick Lincecum. However, beings I alone do not get to make that decision, I'm saying that other pitchers will also have a shot at getting the Cy Young because Lincecum has a lower W-L percentage than he should because he plays on a poor offensive team.
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Yes, but 12-4 compared to who else's better record? J. Johnson is 13-3 but his other numbers don't compare, Haren is 12-8 because the dbacks suck. Cain is pretty close outside of WHIP and K's to lincecum, he is also 12-4. And Carpenter is 14-3 and I think will give Lincecum a run for his money. How do they figure in Cliff Lee's changing of leagues into their decision for Cy Young? Do they just ignore the fact that 75% of his stats are from his time in the AL?
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Yeah, I was mainly referring to Carpenter.
Cliff Lee almost has no chance of getting the Cy Young in my opinion. They don't just ignore the fact he switched leagues, I believe everyone is only supposed to look at his numbers from the National Leauge. He doesn't have enough starts there to be considered.
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Ok, well that is what I would think. And his numbers were only good in the AL, they were nothing like they are now which is partial proof of how much better the AL is than the NL.
And yes I am pulling for Carpenter for Cy Young. If they were to be picked now i think Lincecum would win but there is plenty of season left for Carpenter to turn it on!
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More bad news regarding Peavy.
They decided to give him 1 more start is AAA, Saturday, and then he will likely come up to the majors. If that is the scenario, he would make his start against the Twins :(.
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News update: The Twins are now the best basketball team! They obtained a 7 foot tall relief pitcher from the Diamondbacks, and they have a 7 foot 2 inch guy named Luke Von something in double A. So if they lose at baseball, they'll meet on the court.
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Why does every player that is traded to the NL play 2000% better? I say because they AL is dominant over the NL. Any comments?
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The DH.
Pitchers do better because they get a free out, unless the opposing pitcher is Zambrano.
Hitters do better because there is a different strategy when switching out pitchers in the NL due to the lack of a DH.
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Owings for the Reds has proven to be a decent hitter from the pitcher position.
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Owings for the Reds has proven to be a decent hitter from the pitcher position.
I love it when a pitcher wins a game, like 2-1, where they knock in both of their team's runs. :)
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Yeah, that was a sweet game, I was giddy when that happened. Wasn't it 4-3 against the braves though? and he only knocked in himself with a homer?
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I think STAMP was speaking in the general hypothetical sense. There have been other pitchers who have knocked in runs to help win their own starts. I think that's what he "loves."
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Randy Wolf for the Dodgers hit a 2 RBI double and pitched great to win 2-1. I still would say a lot of it has to do with league skill as far as people getting better when they are moved to the NL. I mean it is a night and day difference. Penny, Smoltz, Cliff Lee, Holliday, and I bet Giambi starts smoking the ball! I guarantee if you put A-Rod in the NL then his stats would be better than Pujols.
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I guarantee if you put A-Rod in the NL then his stats would be better than Pujols.
No. Just no. After looking at some past trades/stats, I realized hitters tend to have a negative change in stats when changing to the NL. Now that I think of this, it kinda makes sense beings the NL is more small ball and the AL is more long ball.
I think the AL is better than the NL, but it would be very close if the AL got rid of the DH.
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Now that I think of this, it kinda makes sense beings the NL is more small ball and the AL is more long ball.
That has always been the case since the DH started.
I think the AL is better than the NL, but it would be very close if the AL got rid of the DH.
The best way to measure this with your statistics infatuation would be to track the record of interleague play in NL ballparks.
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The best way to measure this with your statistics infatuation would be to track the record of interleague play in NL ballparks.
I would, but the amount of games isn't really large enough to have an accurate comparison of the leauges. You also have to realize that every team except 1 or 2 has a weaker road record than a home record, so even if you have enough game results it still wouldn't be a fair comparison.
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Another thing you have to take into account is the weak teams in the league. I know both leagues have weak teams not just this year but for the last decade with no real success. In the AL you have Kansas City and Baltimore. The NL has Washinton, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and San Diego. Also up until the last couple of years Milwaukee and Colorado could be added to that list to the NL, but Tampa Bay would be the only other team in the AL you can count if you took out last year.
Also I think it was two years ago when Kansas City ended up being the worst team in the AL yet went 11-1 in interleague play. Even though I love the NL, they just can't beat the AL. The All-Star Game proves that too!
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We can't disregard the weaker teams, as they are part of the leauge.
The NL should have really won the All-Star game. The massive error by the best defensive first baseman in the game costed them a couple runs ;).
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What's up with Cliff Lee and Josh Beckett? Don't they know it's a pennant race? :laugh:
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Jeter tied the record.
Wouldn't it be great if he somehow magically goes hitless for the rest of the year.