Author Topic: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)  (Read 1009 times)

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2020, 12:30:59 AM »
+4
Josh, I believe you took what he said and took pin points of his post to make a general assumption. His first instinct was probably, wow this is amazing but does it work? His second reaction, when finding out it does work, was to say, ďHey, letís not do it.Ē Your post seems to take both sides. If he posted on here to generate discussion and everyone gets excited and wants to use it but then the other part of your post happens when the judges rule against it at nationals mid game play seems a little pointless. Unless, Josiah posted on here to generate discussion about the combo to ask if it was possible. Instead, he knew it was bad for the game and posted on here to dissuade that deck and maybe have some discussion.
I completely get your point about judges ruling to rules instead of the health of the game, but instead, Josiah completely mitigated that entire situation  by getting confirmation that it worked, then stopping it from happening forever. I wouldnít make an issue out of a what if scenario that never happened. The rule book does state that the judge has the ultimate call. Josiah went to a judge to ask, they said it worked per the REG in its current state and that was it. At a tournament a judge could say no and maybe other than the deck builder, I donít think anyone would have an issue.
Itís not that your post sounded harsh, it was harsh and the way you ended it with italicized words for emphasis over a hypothetical situation isnít needed.
I will back up Josiah and John by saying this has gone on forever in making sure combo decks work. How else would you know? Do you go to a tournament and just hop the judge rules in your favor and what if they do not? At least you can get confirmation prior to and then play it, and if changes need to be made afterwards then so be it.
Josh, youíre a great deck builder, great card creator and overall amazing Redemption player. You brought up fair points but it was done in more so of an aggressive, or maybe condescending way. I get it, itís because you are passionate about this topic, but I do think Josiah has all the right intentions and no deceptive lines were crossed by him asking a judge privately.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2020, 01:00:15 PM »
+1
Players have always approached judges privately when checking about combos. It's been that way for the past twenty years.

My benefit of the doubt says that this is not meant to be sarcastic, but you must know that I already understand this much and, thus, such an utterly dismissive comment like this contributes nothing; therefore, how else should I take this? So thank you very little. :P

I am setting aside sarcasm for the rest of my time on this thread.

I never asserted this was some new problem, or even the root problem. Please do not misconstrue what I am trying to get at- I tried to differentiate between exploiting a combo and exploiting a sloppy rule, and how the latter should, to me, never be encouraged/rewarded/kept secret; especially when it is so blatant and game-breaking.


@Tyler - Thank you for a thoughtful reply. I will try to clear up a bit more of what I mean.

If he posted on here to generate discussion and everyone gets excited and wants to use it but then the other part of your post happens when the judges rule against it at nationals mid game play seems a little pointless.

If it is posted beforehand, even if people want to use it, the PTB have the initiative to preemptively fix the issue before anyone wanting to play it might be caught off guard. There is no confusion or surprise.

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Instead, he knew it was bad for the game and posted on here to dissuade that deck and maybe have some discussion.

While I do not like how this was all kept behind closed doors mere days before nats, and I'm not 100% on board with how this was all revealed, I can say that it is indeed better than the alternative; so that is good.

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I completely get your point about judges ruling to rules instead of the health of the game, but instead, Josiah completely mitigated that entire situation  by getting confirmation that it worked, then stopping it from happening forever. I wouldnít make an issue out of a what if scenario that never happened.

Again, although the fact that this was barely avoided gives me no great consolation, the fact remains that it was, ultimately avoided. So, well done. However, what I was alluding to but didn't spell out was that, ultimately, Josiah was not alone in this. More people knew about it and were keeping it in their back pocket. Any one of them could've come forward earlier. Instead, it was a last minute Holy Spirit-check thing which prompted Josiah to do so. It should not be this way.

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Itís not that your post sounded harsh, it was harsh and the way you ended it with italicized words for emphasis over a hypothetical situation isnít needed.
I will back up Josiah and John by saying this has gone on forever in making sure combo decks work. How else would you know? Do you go to a tournament and just hop the judge rules in your favor and what if they do not? At least you can get confirmation prior to and then play it, and if changes need to be made afterwards then so be it.
Josh, youíre a great deck builder, great card creator and overall amazing Redemption player. You brought up fair points but it was done in more so of an aggressive, or maybe condescending way. I get it, itís because you are passionate about this topic, but I do think Josiah has all the right intentions and no deceptive lines were crossed by him asking a judge privately.

I can afford to be harsh if only to bring up the other side of this which everyone here seems to be brushing under the rug. Merely knowing that this nonsense would've been allowed at Nats strikes me as troubling. IMO, it is far too late in this small, small game to be unsure of where it and its veterans stand regarding issues of this kind. If the leaders of the game (not necessarily judges) act in their own self-interest (keeping something like a rule exploit secret) over what would normally be perceived as the community's best interest (not allowing something like a SoG loop), then who can we trust to do so?

Simply put, this particular instance, far more than any other I can recall, seems to have brought out the part of me that values common sense and openness over loopholes and "the spirit of competition". My perfect version of how the community functions is one of cooperation and mutual-benefit. I know that's not really how anything works, but a step forward is a step in the right direction at the end of the day. :2cents:
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2020, 01:03:20 PM »
+1
You're speculating about a timeline, that you have no way of knowing, and asserting that it's last minute.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2020, 01:11:51 PM »
0
You're speculating about a timeline, that you have no way of knowing, and asserting that it's last minute.

Josiah posted this on August 10th. Less than a week before Nats. We have received no rule change announcements before then that I know of that would make this not playable at Nats. So... can you tell me that this would not have been allowed during Nats if private discussion had occurred in the weeks beforehand, despite having said nothing of it before? If so, then that seems counter to what this thread sounds like.
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2020, 02:15:19 PM »
0
Marcus posted the rule change on this thread that same day. The same day I held a conference call with Marcus and Gabe to get us on the same page. Which occurred a day or two after Josiah and I realized it was more than a pipe-dream combo.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2020, 03:44:58 PM »
0
Marcus posted the rule change on this thread that same day. The same day I held a conference call with Marcus and Gabe to get us on the same page. Which occurred a day or two after Josiah and I realized it was more than a pipe-dream combo.

In which he also says the proposed change hasn't been run by other elders. This doesn't strike me as official.

I found nothing in any of the rules forums, which led me to believe no actual announcement was made. I wouldn't search for rules under Off-topic.

You can see why my impression of this event is that of a last minute call.
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Offline jesse

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2020, 04:21:02 PM »
+6
Whatever the timeline, I personally just really appreciate Josiah ultimately deciding to not run the combo. That was selfless, as it sounds like he could have pretty much guaranteed dominanting Nats if he ran it. For a highly accomplished and competitive player like he is, I can't imagine it was an easy decision.

But as he said, he wants to set a new precedent.  Not put winning #1 over fairness, fellowship, and faith - perhaps unlike what some others have chosen in the past - is a great example for us all to follow! I get Josh's concerns, and of course, generally speaking, it's not wrong to point out where improvement is needed (if done in the right way). But I'm seeing this situation as cause for celebration because Josiah's ultimate decision inspires and challenges all of us to put God first.
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2020, 07:12:31 PM »
0
But I'm seeing this situation as cause for celebration because Josiah's ultimate decision inspires and challenges all of us to put God first.

Indeed. As long as this is also a wake up call- while it was averted this time, I cannot stress enough that there are plenty of players, perhaps not specifically in Redemption, who would not've hesitated to manipulate things in their favor. Responsibility falls not soley on the one who discovers such a broken rule to do something about it. The shepherds must look out for the flock, lest they find themselves without one.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Letter to the community from Josiah Beers (Setting a New Precedent)
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2020, 07:27:45 PM »
+2
I really don't see how a wake up call is needed.

Within a matter of a few days a broken combo was discovered, verified to work, proven to be busted, posted about, and promptly shut down.
Didn't even take a week for all of this to occur.

Josiah literally mentions setting a new precedent and he did just that. In no other game would anyone repeat his actions and in no other game would action be taken as swiftly as it was.

This is a moment to realize how great the community is not question the integrity of its future.

While there will always be concern that broken combos will appear, it's reassuring to know that efforts to create a precedent that is for the greater good of the community and not rules lawyering is being set. That I think is the whole point of this discussion.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 08:13:39 PM by The Schaefer »