Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Gabe on August 17, 2013, 10:16:00 AM
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Nationals is behind us, the news cards have been around for a few months now. We've had a decent opportunity to see what the state of the game looks like right now. I've heard from several players that there is a broader range of viable decks in both T1 and T2 than the game has seen in a long time.
Despite the game possibly being in the healthiest state we've seen in a while, what do think the game needs right now? What card types, themes or special abilities need to be helped or weakened?
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In my opinion I think that lesser used themes (Syrians for example) could use some new cards to make them viable and to make even more of a range of viable decks.
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I would also like to see some support of Syrians. Other themes that I would like to see strengthened would be, Musicians, Greeks, Kings of Israel, and better good Kings of Judah would all be nice.
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Magicians are pretty good, but there is still a lot of room for improvement.
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Don't worry about making lesser themes viable. If it happens, it happens, but intentionally trying to make them viable is either going to result in OP cards in that theme, or it will create needed soft counters (in the vein of Foreign wives ability) to certain cards/abilities that are unplayed because they are in a bad theme.
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I'm not sure if the game *needs* it, but one thing I'd like to see buffed is the Paralysis / Disease theme that brown and pale green have.
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In my opinion I think that lesser used themes (Syrians for example) could use some new cards to make them viable and to make even more of a range of viable decks.
Totally agree with the above. Along those lines, I'd love to see more support for musicians (as a cohesive theme, not just random people getting the identifier) as well as maybe an actual theme for the early church (they're split between blue and purple at the moment, with mostly starter deck cards).
In terms of mechanics, I definitely think something like my Vulnerable mechanic would help temper the more powerful abilities (Foreign Wives, Thad, etc.) without using up card space (like "regardless of protection" does). I also think a mechanic that deals with number of cards in your discard pile or the number of cards that have been discarded from your deck (commonly known as mill) would be cool
I'm not sure if the game *needs* it, but one thing I'd like to see buffed is the Paralysis / Disease theme that brown and pale green have.
Mmm, definitely this, too.
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Hand control needs more counters now. Basically something like an artifact or site that lets you discard cards in your opponents territory each time your hand is targeted by an opponent.
Splash offenses need to be punished a lot more than they have been.
Light grey defenses need to be punished. I think this means making an Angel that is protected from the first enhancement opponent plays each battle CBN. Its an angel so no Gold Shield or Balaams, and then they basically have to use two of the other top four ( Night Raid, Tenants, Idol Gossip, Scattered) to win the battle.
In type 2 errata The Long Day and call it quits.
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We definitely don't need more powerful angels.
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We definitely need a reprint of Moses. He's probably the worst hero in the game right now.
On a side note, I've begun a project called Prophets 2.0 and recreating all those old Prophets cards with no special ability or just have the wrong brigade. I'll try to be careful not to make green way OP but it's Prophets so there's not much you can do. :P Expect some interesting cards though.
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I also think a mechanic that deals with number of cards in your discard pile or the number of cards that have been discarded from your deck (commonly known as mill) would be cool
I think in general, I'd like to see a bunch of new creative strategies and themes added. I don't want strong cards, I want cards that are outright fun to use (Not saying these don't exist in the game, but I'd love to see more of them).
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Martyred would be cool as an identifier with some Enhancments that triggered off that identifier. I'd like to the term convert be changed to Decieved when talking about application to a hero. This would also make the theological point of having a hero "converted" more acceptable. Early church stuff seems to be the way to go.
I'd love to see some New Testament warrior class heros to go along with the centurions who are so underutilized due to having almost no support.
I also love the versatility of King Abijam. Creating a few more cards like that would be fun.
It's always fun to see Dom's since the cap really controls their use now.
Side note (I have to face palm myself for my over reaction to Foreign Wives)
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I'd really like a mulligan mechanic, but that's already been discussed.
Orange brigade needs... help. It'd be nice to play a solid orange defense that didn't need the help of magicians.
I'd like to see the Persians fleshed out a bet more. It'd be nice to see more than Haman, Zeresh, the beasts from Daniel's vision, and Persian Presidents. But then, this might be a bit hard to do, I think. There aren't a whole lot of Persians mentioned, are there? I don't think Esther's husband has been made yet (He'd be a good hero, IMO) and King Darius. I'm not sure what he would be.
I'd like to see further support for Luke/John heroes. I really like the cards from them we have.
And that's all I can think of.
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I'd like to see the Persians fleshed out a bet more. It'd be nice to see more than Haman, Zeresh, the beasts from Daniel's vision, and Persian Presidents. But then, this might be a bit hard to do, I think. There aren't a whole lot of Persians mentioned, are there?
I'm sure the Persians had archers. ;)
On that note, historically speaking, I find it ironic that we have no Warrior Class Persians. :o
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We need more counters to sites, especially, and more ways to stop pre-block ignore. The latter is such a destructive thing to the game in general, because it means that we don't actually have interaction and battles. For the former, sites have so few counters right now that there isn't much of a way to get past them in almost all decks.
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You counter sites you counter some pretty hard counters in Naz, Golgotha, and Kir. So proceed with caution.
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We need more counters to sites, especially, and more ways to stop pre-block ignore. The latter is such a destructive thing to the game in general, because it means that we don't actually have interaction and battles. For the former, sites have so few counters right now that there isn't much of a way to get past them in almost all decks.
What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?
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Crimson does not have an end the battle card.
Jerimiah, Elijah, and Elisha could use reprints, (pretty big name characters to be as bad as they are.)
Protection is almost all offense right now (excluding Judas and FW) but I'd like to see more for Defense - Do Mot Make It CBN!
As much as I still am not a massive fan of FW's ability I am a big fan of conditional triggers. It makes players really "play" each other and allows for my favorite dynamic of the game to expand. (Favorite being trying to outthink my opp in the game itself and guess there next move)
I would also like to see some support of Syrians. Other themes that I would like to see strengthened would be, Musicians, Greeks, Kings of Israel, and better good Kings of Judahwould all be nice.
Remember that the new Solomon's Temple covers them "offense and defense" and defense still has gates of Jerusalem. And as amazing as this combo is, they still aren't playable based on simple lack of quantity. I'd like to see more good and evil kings of Judah, just remember that they don't have to be amazing, just not horrible. Maybe all you need is to reprint the non brown evil kings in brown.
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Just make Simeon a musician if we want better musicians.
I agree we need more playable counters to sites.
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We need more counters to sites, especially, and more ways to stop pre-block ignore. The latter is such a destructive thing to the game in general, because it means that we don't actually have interaction and battles. For the former, sites have so few counters right now that there isn't much of a way to get past them in almost all decks.
What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?
Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.
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The game needs a new booster set! No more of these small set shenanigans! A full sized 200+ card set is what the game needs to move to the next step.
PS. Please print Wizards and my Deacons one of these days ;)
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A banlist.
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I would also like to see some support of Syrians. Other themes that I would like to see strengthened would be, Musicians, Greeks, Kings of Israel, and better good Kings of Judah would all be nice.
I agree about needing more Musician stuff. Granted the new tin did add some viable cards to it but it's still not enough. I've been wanting to build a Musicians deck for the longest time, but can't seem to find enough cards to do so without adding a David's Throne Room splash.
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I would like to see more N.T. in red, it's pretty straight forward right now. White does not do anything really now. Ever since Peter and John came around, white fell back, so maybe buff up Daniel heroes. White really has a limited amount of battle winners and not many options. Silver is fine, green is very one sided, either prophets or prophets and only a few N.T. prophets at that. Blue is the same way, Genesis is it. If your opponent is playing blue you know it's Genesis, so maybe a new tactic in blue. Crimson does not need an end the battle card. Orange is hard to use on their own, maybe a strong battle winner and EC that does something more tha grab from bottom or bands.
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Orange could use a do X to All heroes in battle card.
Withdraw all
Discard all
Underdeck all
Something....
With that and they are completely playable.
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What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?
Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.
This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.
It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.
I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.
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Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.
I don't agree with that at all, because I'm saying we actually need to counter it, which would require new cards. Others seem to disagree that we need to add more counters. That's the whole point of this thread, he's asking for input, which you can't have without a discussion ;)
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Just my thought
Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.
Something else I would like to see would be a missionary identifier.
Redoubter is correct in that Gabe's asking for input about what needs to be countered and people were just wondering which specific combos were the problem. Also, I think the missionary identifier would be a good idea but I think it'd be more of an Evangelist identifier right? Since we already have Philip the Evangelist it would make sense.
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Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.
I don't agree with that at all, because I'm saying we actually need to counter it, which would require new cards. Others seem to disagree that we need to add more counters. That's the whole point of this thread, he's asking for input, which you can't have without a discussion ;)
At this point in time pre-block ignore is being phased out. Simply release other avenues of attack and defense. Nothing needs counters. What we need are simply more unique things that haven't been done to death.
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Just my thought
Preblock ignore being a problem or no doesn't belong in this thread. I think it was very cool of Gabe to open the door to us and allows us to give some feedback from non-elder perspectives. I don't want to lose such a privilege over a frivolous debate that belongs in another thread.
Something else I would like to see would be a missionary identifier.
Redoubter is correct in that Gabe's asking for input about what needs to be countered and people were just wondering which specific combos were the problem. Also, I think the missionary identifier would be a good idea but I think it'd be more of an Evangelist identifier right? Since we already have Philip the Evangelist it would make sense.
I see the point and am willing to say I may have misinterpreted the posts pertaining to PBI.
I personally don't have an issue with either word being used. However I think for younger audiences and audiences not necessarily steeped in Christianity "missionary" is a more recognizable word. I'm not sure changing identifiers to fit old cards is a great idea. Isn't Phillip the Evangelist blue? I doubt we will see any more NT stuff in blue. So PtE probably needs reprinted too.
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I think we need more roman reprints, like four squads, roman jailer, the other non gray emperors and Nero. They are alright as is now and I know they were used in the deck that won nats, but I think they could be better. N.T. defenses in general need improvements.
Offensive themes are pretty good, but some themes could use some extra support. I would love to see a James and Andrew that had a ability other than band to John and Peter. Without their bros out James and Andrew are pretty much only useful for using to give your other disciples site access through fishing boat.
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Sower is also an "Evangelist" so I'm guessing we'll stick with that identifier.
I guess I didn't really think pre-block ignore was still such a big issue. TGT didn't play a huge role in the top decks at Nats (I think only JDS was running Disciples w/ TGT of those who made Top Cut). There was only one disciples deck in T2 and I'm not sure if Clift was running TGT in that deck. My T2 Genesis deck doesn't even use Zebulun or RTC. The most I saw pre-block ignore abused at Nats was myself drawing an early Widow against Matt Stupienski in Sealed deck :D
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I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...
Some ideas:
1. More Territory Destruction - I think that more evil situational territory destruction cards would be good. Right now it is mainly crimson and pale green that can hit territory. Maybe print a card for orange, a card for evil gold, and a card for brown that do something along the lines of Set Fire, Razor, Forest Fire, ASA, Babylonian Soldiers, etc. Gray and black see a lot of play as is and black has Abom so they wouldn't need it.
2. Cards that are dynamic based on d/c pile size - Like browarod said, I think it would be cool to have cards that are more powerful if your opponent has more cards in their discard pile. That would put a hurt on fast decks, Gates of Hell, and be a good end game strategy. Magic does this concept well with cards like Consuming Aberation (I think that is the card).
3. Cards with "or" abilities - I think that cards should potentially have "or" abilities as this would provide so many more options in gameplay.
- Make one ability high cost high reward (e.g. discard top card of deck and two of your heroes to discard two of your opponent's cards) and another more simple (draw 1, band to a ___ hero).
- Make one ability a great counter to certain deck types and the other more generic and weaker.
- Or make one ability slam one strategy and the other ability slam a completely different strategy. I could see value in making almost an entire set with "or" abilities.
4. Off-the-wall abilities - Introduce cards that really turn the game on its head, like Seven Wicked Spirits and Stalks of Flax. These cards will throw a wrench in whatever setup your opponent had going.
- Maybe switch places with your opponent for two turns if you have at least 6 cards in hand - meaning you play as your opponent and vice versa. You would try to make them waste their best cards at the risk of them doing the same to you. It would need to be heavily tested but I think it could be pretty fun.
- Make a dominant that "rewinds" a turn (or round).
- Allow all evil characters to taunt via an artifact or other card.
Kirk
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I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...
Question, were they aware Zeb doesn't do anything if any disciples are out?
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I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...
Question, were they aware Zeb doesn't do anything if any disciples are out?
Fishing Boat is handier than you may think. ;)
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TGT didn't play a huge role in the top decks at Nats (I think only JDS was running Disciples w/ TGT of those who made Top Cut). There was only one disciples deck in T2 and I'm not sure if Clift was running TGT in that deck.
That may have been 2P, but about 3/4 decks checked in at Nats for MP (including one of mine) were Disciples, and TGT won more than a couple of rescues in games I was in...
On other cards, I would definitely like cards with "or" options as suggested, that would be a great way to introduce counters that could remain useful even if the opponent wasn't using the particular strategy being countered. I know a lot of complaints about cards that stop specific tactics involve "Yeah, but if they don't use that, you have wasted a card slot". Would be interesting to explore.
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Me personally, I would love to see musicians boosted and the old themes of Defense such as - Syrian, Assyrian, Babs. and Musicians were kind of dropped in my perspective :/ You made one expansion of them and ........ then gave no back up for them so far except for ONE enhancement that actually negates asaph I mean.... come on! l :laugh:
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What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?
Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.
This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.
It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.
I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.
Golgotha? It is an amazing counter to pre-block ignore escpecially if you are playing CP.
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What pre-block ignore combos do you think are still a problem?
Its not specific combos with me (though TGT is still pretty powerful, and Jacob/Joseph RTC is still very good), its the fact that pre-block ignore completely takes away your opponent's ability to block, which I really don't think is a good thing.
This. If I can play pre-block ignore off of TGT, HT, Jacob, and more, it makes it so that there is quite literally no way to have a battle or block. The 'counters' we have to ignore also don't even have total coverage of the problem.
It is asked, what combos are 'still' a problem. Response is, what solutions to it have come out that ever fixed it? They still can run rampant, doing whatever they please. The only legitimate counters that has been printed are DD and CWD, but DD is squishy, CWD causes other problems (and is a great offensive card honestly), and there is still nothing to counter TGT. Destructive Sin is about it, and even that is pretty limited in effectiveness.
I'm not sure how allowing players to just not allow blocking is a good idea, and more counters are needed to stop it IMO.
Golgotha? It is an amazing counter to pre-block ignore escpecially if you are playing CP.
If only it worked for O.T. defenses.
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I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...
I wish that stuff like that hardly ever happened. To me pre-block ignore is a problem as long as people keep splashing cards like Zeb into decks where they wouldn't normally go (like disciples) just to abuse an overly powerful tactic in the game that prevents opponents from even getting to use their cards.
I really like a lot of the suggestions in this thread, and appreciate everyone giving their input here. I of course agree with the need for specific help (like paralysis, Persians, Syrians, and NT Red), but I also love the general idea of "or" cards. This is a great way to have counters to things that also could be helpful when you don't face that thing.
Keep the ideas coming guys :)
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To me pre-block ignore is a problem as long as people keep splashing cards like Zeb into decks where they wouldn't normally go (like disciples) just to abuse an overly powerful tactic in the game that prevents opponents from even getting to use their cards.
...You mean like in defense heavy turtle decks?
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I had an entire set idea centered on Sins (for evil) and Prayers (for good) and the Sins place on heroes and do all sorts of nasty things when they enter battle (usually at least) and the Prayers placed on heroes and had continual benefits until the hero they are placed on enters battle, where it gets discarded to have an instant ability.
Basically thematically, I love the idea of Sins doing things to heroes that, while not stopping the heroes from rescuing, it does have all kinds of negative impacts on them or the heroes around them. Thematically the prayers are supposed to be the hero it is placed on is interceding for the heroes in battle.
I'm not saying this is what Redemption needs, but I think it could be very interesting for the game, especially because it deals with major aspects of the Christian life (or Israelite/Jewish life in the Bible).
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I still love the Thieves theme idea Not at all because my brother and I were the ones who came up with them, what would give you that crazy idea?
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I also didn't think pre-block ignore is as big a deal anymore. Although I saw probably 6 Zebuluns splashed into Disciples decks at nationals...
Some ideas:
1. More Territory Destruction - I think that more evil situational territory destruction cards would be good. Right now it is mainly crimson and pale green that can hit territory. Maybe print a card for orange, a card for evil gold, and a card for brown that do something along the lines of Set Fire, Razor, Forest Fire, ASA, Babylonian Soldiers, etc. Gray and black see a lot of play as is and black has Abom so they wouldn't need it.
2. Cards that are dynamic based on d/c pile size - Like browarod said, I think it would be cool to have cards that are more powerful if your opponent has more cards in their discard pile. That would put a hurt on fast decks, Gates of Hell, and be a good end game strategy. Magic does this concept well with cards like Consuming Aberation (I think that is the card).
3. Cards with "or" abilities - I think that cards should potentially have "or" abilities as this would provide so many more options in gameplay.
- Make one ability high cost high reward (e.g. discard top card of deck and two of your heroes to discard two of your opponent's cards) and another more simple (draw 1, band to a ___ hero).
- Make one ability a great counter to certain deck types and the other more generic and weaker.
- Or make one ability slam one strategy and the other ability slam a completely different strategy. I could see value in making almost an entire set with "or" abilities.
4. Off-the-wall abilities - Introduce cards that really turn the game on its head, like Seven Wicked Spirits and Stalks of Flax. These cards will throw a wrench in whatever setup your opponent had going.
- Maybe switch places with your opponent for two turns if you have at least 6 cards in hand - meaning you play as your opponent and vice versa. You would try to make them waste their best cards at the risk of them doing the same to you. It would need to be heavily tested but I think it could be pretty fun.
- Make a dominant that "rewinds" a turn (or round).
- Allow all evil characters to taunt via an artifact or other card.
Kirk
I'll second this. The game needs variety and new concepts to keep things interesting and less predictable. A lot of good ideas above.
The game doesn't need "this theme better" or "this identifier" or "NT blue". Those are more "wants". Frankly, nothing is more annoying than PBI; I don't really care how many decks ran TGT or Zeb at Nationals. Those offenses are always going to be a problem, especially for OT defenses.
I'd like to see more defensive TD as well. Not 1 for 1s, like Ancient Evil or A Look Back. EEs more hardy that could make their way into decks, even if they aren't battlewinners. Maybe cards that target both artifacts and heroes in territory.
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I'd like to see more defensive TD as well. Not 1 for 1s, like Ancient Evil or A Look Back. EEs more hardy that could make their way into decks, even if they aren't battlewinners. Maybe cards that target both artifacts and heroes in territory.
They have improved in that regard a lot. Many new cards are versatile in terms of what they can target, giving you options as to how you use it (see: You are the Christ)
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I agree that thematic increase are not what we need. Every theme can't be playable. If every theme is playable, I really think the game would be terrible and OP most likely.
Card ideas:
Hero ability: Discard a curse or evil enhancement in play to discard an evil character of a different brigade. Can not be prevented.
-beats CoD, but doesn't suck against other stuff. Punishes CoD splashes. Can stuff your deck with your own curses for cool interactions. Doesn't negate the curse, which could be funny later in the phase.
Multi-color site: If this site is occupied, negate sites.
-Good and balanced. Strange how that works. Can function as access, but you can't use the ability. Ability is strong, but any hero can rescue from it, so it doesn't help lock out. Would need to be tested a bit to ensure it's not too good in T1 without rescuer's choice, but I don't think it would be.
Fortress: If X(conditional trigger) happens/is is play, each time a player uses a can not be negated ability (other than a Dominant) that player must either discard a card from topdeck, discard a card from hand, or discard a card in territory (other than a lost soul).
-Conditional trigger to deal with CBN abilities if we insist on no set rotation away from them. Gives the user options of what to discard to inherently balance the card, but also can be really good in the right situation. Might be overbalanced to prevent it from being too OP.
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Whats funny is most themes have cards that are insanely playable and just are straddled by not good back up. Also, Musicians are really underrated.
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Playable =/= good
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I agree that thematic increase are not what we need. Every theme can't be playable. If every theme is playable, I really think the game would be terrible and OP most likely.
I think a majority of other games say otherwise.
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Other games don't have like 20+ themes in my experience.
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Multi-color site: If this site is occupied, negate sites.
-Good and balanced. Strange how that works. Can function as access, but you can't use the ability. Ability is strong, but any hero can rescue from it, so it doesn't help lock out. Would need to be tested a bit to ensure it's not too good in T1 without rescuer's choice, but I don't think it would be.
Dude, you totally ripped off my idea without giving any credit :)
The other card could be a mutli-colored site that negates your opponent's sites as long as it was occupied. That would still be really powerful, but would give your opponent ways to deal with it (Burial, SoG, rescuing, cards that discard occupied sites, etc.). It would also be useful for site access since it would be multi-colored.
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That should tell you how much I read your suggestions about where the game is going. I just assume you want me to play balanced, etc. ;)
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More mechanically complex and unique cards that create interesting play experiences for the user and opponent.
The Gates of Hell, Herod's Temple, these cards all add opportunities to make big plays and create room for error that most other cards don't have. If I discard my gates this turn, will I need the bottom deck next turn? If I save my hero this turn but I discard a dominant was it worth it?
Cards like this are much more interesting than binary cards like Garden Tomb, "If X do Y." doesn't create interesting game situations.
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A way to make covenants and/or curses CBN.
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Something else this game needs:
Less CBN/CBI. The only time I am okay with with these is if they are conditional based on the opponent (See: David's Triumph). CBP is great, because it keeps FBTN in check without being too strong.
The starters were a good step in this direction.
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Something else this game needs:
Less CBN/CBI. The only time I am okay with with these is if they are conditional based on the opponent (See: David's Triumph). CBP is great, because it keeps FBTN in check without being too strong.
The starters were a good step in this direction.
I'd like to add that CBN/CBI on non-battlewinners is fine.
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Other games don't have like 20+ themes in my experience.
But there is also much more diversity within the theme of other games, so it makes it a different argument in my opinion. I'll be perfectly honest, I was almost ready to retire after this year except Booster and Sealed? Why? Because there is little variety in the decks, especially type 2. I am sick of facing Judges (which I did about 80% of the time I played at state, regionals, and nationals), and Disciples were no better. I am sure that my opponents have seen enough Isaiah decks to last a lifetime, but that's the main current options. Yes, there are a few who would play Royalty, Priests, Genesis, and/or Warriors, but they are few and far between. Besides which, that's 7 offenses, not much variety there. There really should be more than a dozen viable offensive and defensive strategies that could be top contenders in the game, because that's what makes it interesting. At the same time, I do not want a carbon copy of one battle winner type used for other colors (see horses and end the battle cards or Negate/Discard CBN).
I find it very interesting that Redemption has over 2000 cards printed in nearly 20 years, yet only 500-600 at best are viable for top decks (or even competitive decks). There is a way to boost other themes without making them overpowered. I know I don't have the answers, but I know that quite a few of the new card ideas have been very interesting
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I find it very interesting that Redemption has over 2000 cards printed in nearly 20 years, yet only 500-600 at best are viable for top decks (or even competitive decks).
Actually I would suggest that having 500-600 cards that are viable is actually very good, although the differences between MtG and Redemption might be why it is the case. According to a study that Wizards of the Coast did (where they took the top 1500 or 2000 most powerful cards ever printed) only the top 350 (or something like that) were actually competitive in that test format. This has led Wizards to print only a small percentage of cards to be competitive for each format, and the other cards to appeal to different interests (like casual play or sealed deck/booster draft). I would suggest that the bigger problem isn't that there aren't enough cards being made viable for top tournaments, but that we are trying to make most/every card viable for top tournaments.
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Because there is little variety in the decks, especially type 2. I am sick of facing Judges (which I did about 80% of the time I played at state, regionals, and nationals), and Disciples were no better. I am sure that my opponents have seen enough Isaiah decks to last a lifetime, but that's the main current options. Yes, there are a few who would play Royalty, Priests, Genesis, and/or Warriors, but they are few and far between. Besides which, that's 7 offenses, not much variety there.
I very much disagree that there is little diversity in T2. Considering there were only 10 T2 players at Nationals this year, the fact that there were at least 4-5 different offenses represented (Isaiah, Disciples, Judges, Genesis, and CtB-and that's just what I remember) is somewhat surprising. I went to 5 big T2 tournaments this year, and the following offenses won each one:
2P
T2 Only: Genesis-heavy Combo Deck
NC Regionals: Isaiah
NE Regionals: Royalty
MN State: Solomon's Temple Priests
MW Regionals: Mono-silver.
MP
T2 Only: I don't remember. I have repressed this category from my memory. It was kind of traumatizing.*
NC Regionals: Red Warriors/Royalty
NE Regionals: Disciples+NT Prophets
MN State: Mono-silver
MW Regionals: Mono-silver
So out of those 10 categories (which represent the major T2 venues pretty well IMO) there are at least 7 different theme variations. And the only theme to be repeated was mono-silver, which I assume you would admit is not your typical dominant strategy. I know you have your own experiences and I won't dispute that, but I just wanted to state that the evidence I see doesn't jive with that.
There really should be more than a dozen viable offensive and defensive strategies that could be top contenders in the game, because that's what makes it interesting. At the same time, I do not want a carbon copy of one battle winner type used for other colors (see horses and end the battle cards or Negate/Discard CBN).
I'd venture to guess that there are at least a dozen viable strategies out there, but that since T2 is a relatively small category in terms of numbers (approximately 1/4 the size of T1 in most of the more recent National tournies), most players tend to stick with what they know to be good. For example, just think of some of the themes which are certainly viable (probably not to the same extent as some others, but that doesn't mean they aren't) that didn't make your list or mine:
TGT Ladies
FBTNB (maybe not quite as viable now, but still at least competitive).
Luke/John
Non-Isaiah Prophets (which can be splashed with other strategies--not jsut Isaiah)
Musicians (Don't laugh, but I've seen some pretty decent attempts at a musicians offense)
I agree with you about avoiding carbon-copy type cards, but I think there was some value in that tactic early on: such cards gave other themes such a significant advantage, that once Assyrian Archer (or even before that Absalom's Soldiers), Forgotten History, and 2kH had all come out, there didn't seem to be much reason to not use a pale green defense in T2. But now that themes are becoming stronger and more dedicated to certain ability types, it is likely that those kinds of cards can be avoided (i.e. I don't foresee a Canaanite Horses or Babylonian end the battle card coming anytime soon).
I find it very interesting that Redemption has over 2000 cards printed in nearly 20 years, yet only 500-600 at best are viable for top decks (or even competitive decks). There is a way to boost other themes without making them overpowered. I know I don't have the answers, but I know that quite a few of the new card ideas have been very interesting
Intersting, maybe, but I don't find it surprising at all. I am no expert on any other CCG, so I could be wrong, but I would guess that a high majority of cards to have been printed through the lifetime of those games are also no longer viable. Attribute that to Power Creep or the natural evolution of the game, or what have you, but I don't think it should be a shock to anyone. I think that a better indicator of the health of the game is the number of cards in recent sets that are viable for decks. I'd estimate that in every set printed since Priests, that at least 70% of the cards are viable in today's meta.
*There's an old guy from Missouri who would be more than happy to fill you in on the details. All I remember about that evening is the repeated sound of me bashing my head against a wall.
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Whereas there are some individual cards I'd like to see come out,I think it'd be nice to see some enhancements without special abilities. Maybe more females both good and bad.
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I think it'd be nice to see some enhancements without special abilities.
I think we got plenty of those in Unlimited and Prophets. Just use three copies of those old cards.
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Maybe more females both good and bad.
This, this, this. The lack of quality female heroes (save a few themes) should be amended. I know that there are many more famous males in the Bible than females, but I just hate that using an OT offense guarantees the FBTN LS in my deck. The female-only LS is just as much of a staple as it has always been.
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I started some research under the same opinion as jmhartz, but my results just don't really support that point of view.
For starters, there are several themes that, by definition, can't have female heroes (Angels, Disciples, Priests). After that, you're left with 8 offensive themes. Warrior-class Red doesn't have any females, afaik, because there weren't any that fought battles back then. TGT/NT white is exclusively females. Luke/John is almost exclusively female as well. Prophets has every female, I believe, that is actually a prophet. Genesis has very good female heroes, at least 1-2 of which are always run in non-splash/Job Genesis offenses. Judges has the only female judge, so there isn't any room there. Pretty much the only themes that could maybe actually have more female heroes are Kings/royalty/OT purple and Musicians (personally, Miriam would fit better in white unless they make a green Exodus theme).
I'm all for more women but, as you said, the Bible (especially the OT) is very male-heavy. So, not really sure where you expect them to pull these"quality female heroes" from, lol.
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I'd like to see more New Testament Red Heroes. Deacons need to be expanded upon. I'd also like to see a bit more Canaanite support as well.
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Women 2 expansion anyone?
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Women 2 expansion anyone?
I support this idea.
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This thread has been very helpful! Keep up the great contributions!
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Prophets has every female, I believe, that is actually a prophet.
Definitely not. Deborah, Huldah, Philip's Daughters, and NT Elisabeth just off the top of my head.
I know some themes can't have women, and there's not a lot to choose from sometimes, but there's no doubt that the heroes that strike fear into your opponent are male. Abigail and the TGT ladies, and to a lesser extent Rachel and TGW, are really the only female heroes that can dominate a game.
And since there are so few to choose from... Then I would argue one big push with one dedicated expansion should fill the ranks with the remaining female hero options :)
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Jael is so underrated,
Just print her in a new color with some enhancements to back her up.
After all only two people in the Bible were described as "blessed among all women." You all know about Marry but can you guess the second?
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Prophets has every female, I believe, that is actually a prophet.
Definitely not. Deborah, Huldah, Philip's Daughters, and NT Elisabeth just off the top of my head.
I know some themes can't have women, and there's not a lot to choose from sometimes, but there's no doubt that the heroes that strike fear into your opponent are male. Abigail and the TGT ladies, and to a lesser extent Rachel and TGW, are really the only female heroes that can dominate a game.
And since there are so few to choose from... Then I would argue one big push with one dedicated expansion should fill the ranks with the remaining female hero options :)
Miriam has dominated many a game. Best female hero over time imo.
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For all of you frustrated by all the Foreign Wives floating around, think of all the female heroes who can ignore her (thereby giving you a free turn to draw and not forfeit a rescue):
- Miriam, Jochebed, Eve, TGT Women
That has to count for something. How many males can ignore her?
- Peter, John, Zebulun
I guess it shows men as susceptible to the influence of wives... ;)
Kirk
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You forgot King David.
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Prophets has every female, I believe, that is actually a prophet.
Definitely not. Deborah, Huldah, Philip's Daughters, and NT Elisabeth just off the top of my head.
I said "I believe" because I'm not a Bible expert (I didn't even know any of those 4 were prophets, or that Huldah was female, lol). Deborah is already in judges, though, and is better for that theme with no s/a (and is already gold). I guess you have me on the other 3 (questionably). :P
Even so, that's still only 3 females to reprint, lol.
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Just a little more input on adding more Women to the ranks. We can broaden the Womens theme with additional generics also.
Example: The Wife of Noble Character Prov. 31:10-31
Daughter of Jerusalem Luke 23:27-30
Prominent Women Acts 17:2-4
Shameful Women Romans 1:26
These are just a couple examples, but I think just about all themes could be boosted with a least some supporting ladies, if not, some additional leading ladies, albeit generic.
Godspeed,
Mike
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To name some more:
Oppressive Women (E/F starter deck card, needs reprint)
Peter's Mother-in-Law
Lois
Eunice
Esther could be more useful
Yoda (I think it's spelled Euoida but that's how I pronounce it)
Syntyche
Mary should be better
Orpah
Athaliah
Jochebed
Sarah
Rebekah
Jael
Mary of Bethany
Michal
Pharoah's Daughter
Queen of Sheba
Rahab
King's Daughter
Queen Vashti could be made
As you can see there are plenty of potential reprints for Women.
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I now suddenly want Daniel to start a Women 2 expansion project.
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Hey,
Orange brigade needs... help. It'd be nice to play a solid orange defense that didn't need the help of magicians.
I feel like the way we have designed Orange makes it very hard to balance in all of the variety of ways it might be used. Giving it the cards to make it competitive in a conventional Type 1 defense would probably make it too good as a Type 2 defense or in a defensive heavy Type 1 deck. Orange also has a little of the Silver design philosophy built into it where it's almost intended not to be used by itself but rather in tandem with a human brigade/theme that it can support well.
I think we need more roman reprints, like four squads, roman jailer, the other non gray emperors and Nero.
When we are considering what old cards to reprint we primarily consider if the card is in the wrong brigade and is the card really bad (i.e. virtually unplayable). A card like Nero is very unlikely to be reprinted because it is in the right brigade and has a useful ability.
3. Cards with "or" abilities - I think that cards should potentially have "or" abilities as this would provide so many more options in gameplay.
The drawback to "or" abilities is that they become really long abilities really fast. In the last few years (when abilities were written over the artwork) signifiant effort was made to keep abilities short so as not to cover too much of the artwork. The new card design has moved the ability off of the artwork, but I suspect we'll continue to use similar guidelines for ability length because there still isn't an abundance of space in which to write out a long ability.
4. Off-the-wall abilities - Introduce cards that really turn the game on its head, like Seven Wicked Spirits and Stalks of Flax. These cards will throw a wrench in whatever setup your opponent had going.
While it doesn't surprise me in the least that you want more of these sorts of cards ;) they aren't necessarily good for the game. Players generally don't gravitate towards them because they don't fit a nitch within most decks. They also tend to be very difficult to word perfectly which often leads to lots of ruling questions, broken combos and/or errata when players do turn their attention toward them. They do serve a beneficial role in the game when they are done right, but it is VERY hard to get them right.
I'd like to see more defensive TD as well. Not 1 for 1s, like Ancient Evil or A Look Back. EEs more hardy that could make their way into decks, even if they aren't battlewinners.
This is a line we have to tread very, very carefully. We want games to end within the time limit with the heroes ultimately being sucessful. We also want players to include enough defense to avoid games turning into dual solitaire race to five which is what happens when there are no blocks. Because a lot of top players are inclined towards playing a heavy offense we have to make defensive cards more powerful to incentivise players to use them. But if we make them too powerful a deck with a decent sized defense (not necessarily a turtle) ends up timing out/making the heroes not sucessful. Teritory destruction that is too efficient runs the risk of pushing more games than we want into the "wrong side ends up winning" category.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
Hand control needs more counters now.
You mean like Four-Drachma Coin? Or are you thinking more of the new cards that underdeck cards from a hand?
We need more counters to sites ... sites have so few counters right now that there isn't much of a way to get past them in almost all decks.
I agree we need more playable counters to sites.
I assume by "sites" you mean the abilities on the sites and not the issue of access to them. Even so I'm confused what you mean by this, because I feel like there are a ton of counters to sites out there but most players are just not willing to commit the card slots in their deck for them because sites are rarely used. Are you talking more specifically about sites that are protected by CP? Off the top of my head Wastelands, Jacob's Dream (off of Joseph/HT or Jacob), Land Dispute, Habakkuk Stands Watch, and Edge of the Sword (off of any green prophet with HT) can all easily deal with sites not protected by CP. Joseph before Pharaoh (off of Joseph/HT or Jacob), Asyrian Siege Army, Foreign Sword, and Faith as a Mustard Seed can negate and removing CP leaving the other sites vulnerable while Benedictus, Isaiah's Call, Angel with the Secret Name, The Centurion at Capernaum, King Abijam, and Temple Priests negate all sites temporarily. What is it that sites are doing to you that these cards cannot be used to address?
In type 2 errata The Long Day and call it quits.
Would categorizing The Long Day as a Side Battle/New Battle card so that you could only create one extra battle with it per turn be enough?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
Despite the game possibly being in the healthiest state we've seen in a while, what do think the game needs right now? What card types, themes or special abilities need to be helped or weakened?
Players need a response to underdeck. Few protect abilities are broad enough to include underdeck and once you've been hit by one the only thing you can do is draw until you get it back (a shuffle to get it off the bottom of the deck helps and a search ability could theoretically be used to get it back but nazareth makes both of those options much less likely). I find this particularly problematic in that underdeck hurts speed decks a lot less than non-speed decks because a speed deck will deck out faster meaning they'll redraw the card sooner while a slower deck may very well never see the card again the rest of the game. Obviously an ability that protects from underdeck (hopefully not that specific) would work. Other more creative options would include an ability that let you draw from the bottom of your deck instead of the top or an ability that topdecked the bottom X cards of your deck.
I'd like to see more counters to territory class enhancements. In particular reprints of Covenant with Noah and Unsucessfull that "negate and discard the last good/evil enhancement played or any good/evil enhancement in play."
Drawing and in particular CBN drawing is still particularly ubiquitous and lacks good counters. An ability that "reduces the number of cards drawn by all draw abilities by 2" would be an interesting new approach to the issue.
I used a Herod's/Gray defense at Nationals. There are a couple specific cards that those themes would benefit from:
Herod's could use a character that makes withdraw abilities CBN. It would probably need a condition to keep it from being too powerful.
Grey could use a interrupt/negate that isn't horrible. (Although an Unsuccessful reprint would probably be enough to fit that bill.)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I disagree that underdecking is an issue, the only CBN/I underdecker is Scattered. the rest are all interruptable. With top players the only reason they would play this negateable battle winner is the guarantee that it can hit who they want to hit with it.
Think Joseph protected from underdecking?????
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I disagree that underdecking is an issue, the only CBN/I underdecker is Scattered. the rest are all interruptable. With top players the only reason they would play this negateable battle winner is the guarantee that it can hit who they want to hit with it.
Think Joseph protected from underdecking?????
Vain Philosohpy is CBN and Sorrow of Mary is basically CBN, as only CWD stops it.
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Reason why Simon is super legit in this format right now.
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I was under the impression we were talking about cards that target characters.
And there are already plenty of ways to protect your hand for opponents.
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Other more creative options would include an ability that let you draw from the bottom of your deck instead of the top or an ability that topdecked the bottom X cards of your deck.
Maybe an Artifact that you could use to shuffle a card in your territory (except a Lost Soul, unless there was a cost involved). This would help tons of strategies in getting rid of placed cards that you don't like, getting rid of a converted character so Zebulun/Benjamin/Jair etc. works, or just shuffling your deck in response to an underdeck ability.
I'd like to see more counters to territory class enhancements. In particular reprints of Covenant with Noah and Unsucessfull that "negate and discard the last good/evil enhancement played or any good/evil enhancement in play."
I agree that a way to negate TC enhancements would be good for encouraging more activity in the battle phase.
Drawing and in particular CBN drawing is still particularly ubiquitous and lacks good counters. An ability that "reduces the number of cards drawn by all draw abilities by 2" would be an interesting new approach to the issue.
I was under the impression we were talking about cards that target characters.
And there are already plenty of ways to protect your hand for opponents.
But only Simon the Zealot can protect it from underdeck at this point. The rest just protect from discard.
I agree that drawing is ubiquitous, but I am not convinced it is as much of a problem any more. There are several useful counters for it, and the meta seems to be creeping a bit more toward balanced decks at this point anyway. Besides, I think it is pretty rare for people to use cards that affect both players' draw abilities (such as Iron Pan, SYoF, and the Pigs LS) so even if such a card were made, I don't know if it would be used unless it provided you a significant advantage to use it. Besides, what happens when Peter has to draw -1? That's just confusing... ;)
I used a Herod's/Gray defense at Nationals. There are a couple specific cards that those themes would benefit from:
Herod's could use a character that makes withdraw abilities CBN. It would probably need a condition to keep it from being too powerful.
Grey could use a interrupt/negate that isn't horrible. (Although an Unsuccessful reprint would probably be enough to fit that bill.)
Naaman's Chariots isn't horrible. Also, pretty much the only useful interrupts/negates are either negate all abilities, or ItB+Battle Winner. I'd say Pharisees don't really need either of those, Romans already have one (Expelling the Jews) and Syrians just need a lot of help in general.
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I think we need more cards with "regardless" in them, like "regardless of protection." We did that with immunity, now it's protection's turn. ;)
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I have a ton of new cards if you need inspiration: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/new-card-ideas/master-q's-expansion-(i-e-unnamed-collection-of-my-new-card-ideas)/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/new-card-ideas/master-q's-expansion-(i-e-unnamed-collection-of-my-new-card-ideas)/) ;)
One thing I thought of in the middle of making cards is to abbreviate cannot be prevented, interrupted, and negated on cards to CBP, CBI, and CBN. It's not a huge change but it would save a ton of space on new cards. :2cents:
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I like the women's booster deck. I would like to see it expanded and build up. Just so that some of the women character could pack more of a punch compared to say someone like Nero or Pharaoh. Jezebel and Delilah both are nasty women from the bible. Mary (mother of Jesus) and her cousin Elizabeth should have some sort of special ability. Of course there is the lineage of women for the line of Christ. Rehab, Tamar, Ruth, etc they should be able to band together and create a good banding ability that could stand up to a band of male characters that are banded together. Or a card with a lamb icon that will band them together. Lineage of Christ. I'm sure all this has been thought of before now. I am very new to the game and still learning my cards.
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Drawing and in particular CBN drawing is still particularly ubiquitous and lacks good counters. An ability that "reduces the number of cards drawn by all draw abilities by 2" would be an interesting new approach to the issue.
I agree with the first sentence, but disagree that the second sentence is a good way to fix the first. We just printed a bunch of cards with D1 abilities, and Foreign Wives doesn't kick in until a player is "greedy" and goes beyond a D1. The PTB seem to have given their blessing to D1s; the ability you describe will kill all D1s, while ironically making the D3s that we complain about viable in light of Foreign Wives. Also, it would have unintended consequences with Mayhem, Hur, and TGW.
I generally agree with the first sentence. Foreign Wives helps, but the reason she is literally an EC staple is that everyone knows drawing is the way to win on offense. RBD is good, but when RBD is active, DD and CWD are not, and there's almost nothing easier to get rid of than a curse when DD and CWD aren't active. Golden Cherubim is awesome, but is worthless against Nazareth.
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In type 2 errata The Long Day and call it quits.
Would categorizing The Long Day as a Side Battle/New Battle card so that you could only create one extra battle with it per turn be enough?
Yes that works. Or you just errata the warriors to read like the Kings instead of the other way around which it is now. To clarify the Kings allows you to make an additional rescue but was change to read like the Warriors which allows you to make another rescue.
As for hand control it be nice if you could make cards that are a blanket protect like Simon the Zealot. If you need to balance the card feel free let it protect from either discard or underdeck.
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Just trying to keep this thread alive, is there any news on a possible time frame for the new set? Is it true we might be aiming for a new foil booster pack?
Something I believe the game could use would be a revamp of the word convert when it target hero's. I would love to see the word decieve be used. It could become another usable ability in card making for a new set.
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Well if another set with rarity comes out, I would suggest it would be a good idea to make the more complex cards the higher rarities, that way when a new player opens several packs they won't get overwhelmed with complexity.
I also think that Redemption may need to cut back on complexity, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any, but making most of the cards do multiple things and/or use difficult abilities won't be good for the game as a whole.
The other thing I think would be good is more thematic sets. I am not suggesting making a set like Prophets or Kings where the theme is primarily one brigade nowadays, but rather make a theme that can encompass every brigade. Disciples was a good set, but since all the disciples were purple (save one also being red) the set wasn't all about the disciples, although it was a well done set all things considered.
The ideas that I was working on:
Spiritual Warfare - A set based on prayers and sins, both are placed on heroes and Prayers augment heroes (or rescue attempts) while the enhancement is on a hero in territory and sins impede rescue attempts or heroes.
Judgements and Mercies - a set based on Judgements: Powerful field nukes and Remnants: characters that enter battle after the entire side is removed.
I'm sure there are tons of set themes that would allow for relatively even distribution of brigades while still staying with the theme of the set.
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Those sound like really good ideas to me, I love the sins and prayers idea. However those ideas seem to contradict your though on avoiding complex cards in this new set.
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I think that the game needs more hand protection since there are now many cards that target hands.
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I think that the game needs more hand protection since there are now many cards that target hands.
Specifically from under/topdecking and look (since naz protects from shuffle, and 4-d coin protects from discard) imo.
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I think that the game needs more hand protection since there are now many cards that target hands.
Specifically from under/topdecking and look (since naz protects from shuffle, and 4-d coin protects from discard) imo.
Hand targeting is a good defense strategy. Leave it alone people.
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Hand targeting is a good defense strategy. Leave it alone people.
The most common hand targeting at Nats was I am Holy removing people's defense so that the offense could walk in for free LSs. That certainly isn't a "defense strategy".
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Hand targeting is a good defense strategy. Leave it alone people.
The most common hand targeting at Nats was I am Holy removing people's defense so that the offense could walk in for free LSs. That certainly isn't a "defense strategy".
Just as common, if not more so (since some people probably didn't realize how good I am Holy is), is look at hand, which is also a very offensive ability that targets hand.
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Those sound like really good ideas to me, I love the sins and prayers idea. However those ideas seem to contradict your though on avoiding complex cards in this new set.
I actually thought about the complexity issue. I don't believe that complexity is a bad thing, but too much will make it very difficult for new players to get into the game and therefore we should monitor the complexity and in sets with rarity, keep the commons less complex than the higher rarity. I'm also not just talking about the next set, I'm talking about the general future of the game, and I don't really want either my set ideas to be the next set, but they are ideas for a future Redemption set.
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The game is currently at a sweetspot compared to the past few years. You can basically play almost anything(being a good player) and win at least 60% of your games. Diversity is at a fairly high level and that should be promoted by making well balanced cards and not trying to make a million silver bullets to hand control, Judges, Disciples, and everything else.
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AKA the game is super luck sacky
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Those sound like really good ideas to me, I love the sins and prayers idea. However those ideas seem to contradict your though on avoiding complex cards in this new set.
I actually thought about the complexity issue. I don't believe that complexity is a bad thing, but too much will make it very difficult for new players to get into the game and therefore we should monitor the complexity and in sets with rarity, keep the commons less complex than the higher rarity. I'm also not just talking about the next set, I'm talking about the general future of the game, and I don't really want either my set ideas to be the next set, but they are ideas for a future Redemption set.
Except, if all the rare ultra-rare cards are complex why would a new player be excited to open up packs if they only get the common cards bc the others are to difficult for them to understand.
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Those sound like really good ideas to me, I love the sins and prayers idea. However those ideas seem to contradict your though on avoiding complex cards in this new set.
I actually thought about the complexity issue. I don't believe that complexity is a bad thing, but too much will make it very difficult for new players to get into the game and therefore we should monitor the complexity and in sets with rarity, keep the commons less complex than the higher rarity. I'm also not just talking about the next set, I'm talking about the general future of the game, and I don't really want either my set ideas to be the next set, but they are ideas for a future Redemption set.
Except, if all the rare ultra-rare cards are complex why would a new player be excited to open up packs if they only get the common cards bc the others are to difficult for them to understand.
The problem isn't with a few complex cards, the problem happens when most of the cards are complex and the players get overwhelmed with them. So if you have the complex cards at higher rarity it will limit the complexity a new player will see in their early days as a player, therefore slowly introducing them to the complexity of the game rather than pushing them into it right from the start. Since new players collection will be primarily commons and uncommons with only a few rares.
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Here is what I am getting at
As a new player lets say you don't understand what the ace of spades does but it's the most rare card.
Why would you want to buy tons of packs to get a bunch of copies of the 4 of clubs? You won't. If you want to sell more packs to experienced and new players the ace of spades needs be understood and desired by all.
Side note has there been any conversation on potential release dates or if the new set may be a foiled booster set?
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Here is what I am getting at
As a new player lets say you don't understand what the ace of spades does but it's the most rare card.
Why would you want to buy tons of packs to get a bunch of copies of the 4 of clubs? You won't. If you want to sell more packs to experienced and new players the ace of spades needs be understood and desired by all.
The issue isn't that a new player can't understand the card at all, because that to me is a sign of bad design, but since complexity is cumulative, the more cards that are complex the higher the total complexity of the game.
Primary complexity issues are not from inability of a player to understand an individual card, but inability to figure out complex situations that come up during games. Now if a new player only has a few complex cards (due to higher rarities) strange situations will be much more rare than if any card can have a similar complexity (if rarity has nothing to do with complexity). I'm also not suggesting that every rare card has to be really complex or that every common card has to be simple, but if we keep commons mostly simple, it will be easier for new players get into the game.
Essentially I'm saying that we should make sure that new player get eased into the game while also allowing veteran players to get the cards they want.
If you are curious I'm getting much of my information from a few Magic the Gathering articles on how they design their game to keep it accessible to new players and fun for veterans.
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I always hate it when people talk about Magic design compared to Redemption.
Simple abilities tend to be broad, and thus powerful. (Or conversely limited and thus weak)
Magic can combat broad powerful abilities by having large mana costs attached.
Simple (read powerful) abilities in Redemption have no such check, thus we tend to balance them by attaching conditions, which in turn makes them more complicated.
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I always hate it when people talk about Magic design compared to Redemption.
Simple abilities tend to be broad, and thus powerful. (Or conversely limited and thus weak)
Magic can combat broad powerful abilities by having large mana costs attached.
Simple (read powerful) abilities in Redemption have no such check, thus we tend to balance them by attaching conditions, which in turn makes them more complicated.
I actually agree with this to some extent. But I don't think conditions necessarily add complexity. An ability like "If used by a 1 Samuel Warrior class hero discard a warrior class evil character" isn't really any more complicated than "Discard an evil character" but it is much more limited. You are functionally doing the same thing in both cases, just in one case you have a couple of conditions attached to it that most people will understand.
Maybe I'm wrong about the complexity on cards being an issue. Since there are very few cards that I would consider too complex in and of themselves. It's the interaction that causes most complexity issues. And I would never want to eliminate complexity, just move it around.
And to Red Dragon Thorn, just because Magic is a different game doesn't mean we can't learn from them, the specific article was explaining how Wizards had an issue (lack of new players), them finding the problem (complexity creep) and trying to solve it (there were actually several things, the most applicative to Redemption was move complex cards to higher rarities, but other things they did was limit new keywords in blocks (but that might be irrelevant unless we introduce set rotation, and making sure that keywords weren't too complicated (the reminder text had to be able to fit on the cards)) Now I understand that Redemption is a different game with different needs, but if complexity creep is making it harder for new players to get into it, I would suggest that we look into finding ways to limit it, while still keeping the game interesting to veterans. Perhaps my ideas won't work, but if we ignore the problem it's not going to go away.
Maybe complexity creep isn't the issue at all, but most of what I'm seeing on this topic is people talking about this theme needing a boost or that ability needs nerfing, and while that may be true, I don't think that is the way to approach game design. I think we need to approach it from a place of, how to we make sure the game will be healthy in 5 years or 10 years?
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And to Red Dragon Thorn, just because Magic is a different game doesn't mean we can't learn from them, the specific article was explaining how Wizards had an issue (lack of new players), them finding the problem (complexity creep) and trying to solve it (there were actually several things, the most applicative to Redemption was move complex cards to higher rarities, but other things they did was limit new keywords in blocks (but that might be irrelevant unless we introduce set rotation, and making sure that keywords weren't too complicated (the reminder text had to be able to fit on the cards)) Now I understand that Redemption is a different game with different needs, but if complexity creep is making it harder for new players to get into it, I would suggest that we look into finding ways to limit it, while still keeping the game interesting to veterans. Perhaps my ideas won't work, but if we ignore the problem it's not going to go away.
I don't disagree with this at all. We can learn plenty from them, but the fact remains that because Redemption is a non-cost system, power/complexity will always be a challenge.
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I don't care what the card says, as long as it is shiny. :o
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Cactus should make a Haman's Plot reprint that is foil. Then it would be almost impossible to rip in half.
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Cactus should make a Haman's Plot reprint that is foil. Then it would be almost impossible to rip in half.
Would inability to rip in half fall under "do as much as you can"?
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Alot going on in this thread that I like.
Concerning the hand protection, you can print the cards all day but will anyone play with them? Not unless sideboards were a part of the game, and that wont happen unless it was best 2 of 3.
The only way I play with hand protection cards is if I'm playing a speed deck. Last ROOT game I ran Red and Purple Peter with 4D coin and Standing in the Gap. This was to counter Emp Tib, Sorrow, Vain. Did it work? SoG was still placed on the bottom by Vain. Opponent Revealer didnt work which was bad because it would have pushed SoG up 2 cards. Sorrow didnt hit because opponent forgot about protection...I was still up on my opponent by like 20 card, decked and lost to sould drought because I took Hopper out last second (even though I said I would never do this ever again since NATS) Standing in the Gap still had 3 turns...
I would love to see cards that tax players for thier cards in play.
While this card remains, only one hero may be put into play per turn.
Players must discard a card in thier territory to play a hero.
Set aside Y, during upkeep each player must discard X cards in territory equal to # of counters on Y.
Also forgot to mention that with your hand protected cards like The Entrapping Pharisee become alot better against you.