Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: browarod on November 30, 2011, 02:54:55 PM
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Not sure if this would be broken or not. Feedback would be appreciated. This is a serious idea so I would like very much to balance it enough that it could conceivably be printed.
Jesus Bound
-/- Multi EE
“If used by a Pharisee, Sadducee, or Judas Iscariot, place your Son of God from hand onto your Garden of Gethsemane: Protect it from opponents while it remains in play."
~Mark 15:1
Garden of Gethsemane
White? Site
-Cannot hold Lost Souls-
"If Son of God is placed here, you may search deck for a Mark 15 card."
~Mark 14:32
The Cross
Artifact
"On activation, if Pontius Pilate is in play and your Son of God has been on your Garden of Gethsemane for one or more turns, place your Son of God here."
~Mark 15:30
Burying Christ
-/- White/Silver GE
“If used by a NT Hero and your Son of God has been on The Cross for one or more turns, place your Son of God on The Garden Tomb.”
~Mark 15:46
Victory Over Death
Good Dominant
“If your Son of God has been on The Garden Tomb for 3 or more turns, you win the game.
~1 Corinthians 15:55
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Very interesting game idea...some ideas:
I wonder if anyone would have a problem with SoG being in land of bondage, thereby denoting it as a Lost Soul, which Jesus could not be....maybe place it in set aside area instead, and protect it?
Jesus bound should start off "place on a Pharasee...." since it doesn't have any use on any other card type.
Victory does not need the "or more" if on turn 3 you win. Also, you may want it to say "3 consecutive turns" in case of a reset for any reason. This will help it to not be OP.
Lastly, the big drawback to these cards is that they essentially cannot be used in any other situations, in other words, they are useful only in and of themselves as a group.
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Ridiculously overpowered. I could run a 53 card defense with those three cards on offense and win almost every time.
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Very interesting game idea...some ideas:
I wonder if anyone would have a problem with SoG being in land of bondage, thereby denoting it as a Lost Soul, which Jesus could not be....maybe place it in set aside area instead, and protect it?
Jesus bound should start off "place on a Pharasee...." since it doesn't have any use on any other card type.
Victory does not need the "or more" if on turn 3 you win. Also, you may want it to say "3 consecutive turns" in case of a reset for any reason. This will help it to not be OP.
Lastly, the big drawback to these cards is that they essentially cannot be used in any other situations, in other words, they are useful only in and of themselves as a group.
The fact that they're only usable in a specific group would be part of balancing them (if they could be splashed into anything then they would indeed me horrendously OP). If you're not running this win condition, you wouldn't include them, and you must include them if you are trying to win like this. Jesus Bound places SoG into your LoB, it doesn't place itself anywhere, so I'm not sure what you mean about the "place on a Pharisee" thing. Victory needs the "or more" because if it doesn't have them then you would need to play VOD when SoG has been on TGT for exactly 3 turns. Once the 4th turn ticks, VOD wouldn't work anymore. I think that would make them too situational to work at all reliably, if that makes sense. Glad you like the idea, though. :)
Also, abut Bound, he goes to LoB because that's the most appropriate Redemption zone that I thought would fit for the story. I'd rather not change it. Things in the LoB are not always considered Lost Souls (see: demons) so I don't think people would assume it becomes a Soul, just that it's chilling there, lol.
Ridiculously overpowered. I could run a 53 card defense with those three cards on offense and win almost every time.
If it means something other than offense-heavy speed decks can win regularly, then is that so bad? Also, you'd need more than just these 3 cards. You'd need SoG, A Phar/Sad/Judas to play the EE on, a White/Silver Hero to play the GE on, TGT, and you'd probably want some fort protection otherwise your TGT with SoG could potentially be nuked before you get to 3 turns. Additionally, you'd probably want some GE recursion/protection on the off-chance you're forced to discard any of the needed cards for whatever reason. I think it would be harder than you assume to actually make a deck that uses this reliably.
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This is very bad. Because everyone would stop playing speed and play all defence, plus making TGT stronger? I'm sorry, but this really was not a good idea.
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Jesus Bound - the reason I stated "place on ..." is that the way it is worded now ("if used by...") begs the question, "what if it is NOT used by a Pharisee, etc."
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This is very bad. Because everyone would stop playing speed and play all defence, plus making TGT stronger? I'm sorry, but this really was not a good idea.
Except this is like the exact opposite of what TGT is good at. TGT is for drawing through your deck to your battle winners/EC destruction so you can walk in for 3 then SoG/NJ for the win. This would not only require them to use SoG for something else, it would make NJ useless, and actually make them have to slow down (since this win condition is based on a minimum of turns, not how fast you can draw into it). TGT is offense-heavy, this would require defense-heavy. I really don't see how that makes TGT "stronger".
Jesus Bound - the reason I stated "place on ..." is that the way it is worded now ("if used by...") begs the question, "what if it is NOT used by a Pharisee, etc."
If it's not used by one of the 3 listed things, then it just does nothing and was a waste to play, lol. To be Biblically accurate, Judas and the Sanhedrin were the ones that captured Jesus, so I didn't see why anyone else in the Bible should get to in Redemption. That's the same reason the GE is White/Silver, because that's the colors of the characters involved at that point in the story.
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This is very bad. Because everyone would stop playing speed and play all defence, plus making TGT stronger? I'm sorry, but this really was not a good idea.
Except this is like the exact opposite of what TGT is good at. TGT is for drawing through your deck to your battle winners/EC destruction so you can walk in for 3 then SoG/NJ for the win. This would not only require them to use SoG for something else, it would make NJ useless, and actually make them have to slow down (since this win condition is based on a minimum of turns, not how fast you can draw into it). TGT is offense-heavy, this would require defense-heavy. I really don't see how that makes TGT "stronger".
Jesus Bound - the reason I stated "place on ..." is that the way it is worded now ("if used by...") begs the question, "what if it is NOT used by a Pharisee, etc."
If it's not used by one of the 3 listed things, then it just does nothing and was a waste to play, lol. To be Biblically accurate, Judas and the Sanhedrin were the ones that captured Jesus, so I didn't see why anyone else in the Bible should get to in Redemption. That's the same reason the GE is White/Silver, because that's the colors of the characters involved at that point in the story.
Because, you wouldn't need offence whatsoever. It even Searches for TGT for you!!!?? insane! You would just wait till you got SOG, then in 4 turns, you win. end of story. ridiculous over-powered.
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Because, you wouldn't need offence whatsoever. It even Searches for TGT for you!!!?? insane! You would just wait till you got SOG, then in 4 turns, you win. end of story. ridiculous over-powered.
If you have no offense, then what are you using TGT with? NT females search for TGT, too.... 4 turns from when you get SoG til you win, yeah that sounds about right. You have yet to provide even 1 logical reason for it being overpowered, let alone ridiculously* overpowered.
Also, I'd like to see you play this win condition with absolutely no offense. Good luck playing Burying Christ. ;)
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All I have to do is: Wait till I draw Son of God. Place it in LoB, then hold off my opoonent with all of my defence until i draw my hero. Then, I search for TGT, if i dont have it already and put my SoG on it, and just hold off with my defence (50 cards), until i win. All you would need for offence is TGT, 1 hero, the TC enhancement, and SoG. If your going to win, you should rescue 5 lost souls. No exceptions. (besides T2, 7 LS). Unless, they make an actually fair way. It should not be protected. That way, your opponent can play burial on it and ruin the strategy... and then you actually would need an offence.
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All you have to do in the current meta is wait til you draw Samuel, Joseph, or Gideon, place them in your territory. Then you search for the hero or enhancement that works with whichever theme you are using and RA with your hero and get a soul. Then you just hold off with your stall/draw defense until you get your 3rd rescue and then you drop SoG/NJ. Sounds just as simple as this new idea.
Burial only discard Lost Souls, SoG in your LoB is not a Lost Soul. Also, with all the CBN/CBI offensive battle winners out there right now, even with a 50-card defense I'd like to see you try to hold out indefinitely. You're going to want to include cards to speed up the acquisition of the cards you need (the enhancements, the heroes, the fortress).
Have you never heard of stall decks that just try to timeout win? I really don't see how introducing a new end goal makes anything not "fair," especially considering this is barely different in deck breakdown from the herolite deck you yourself are currently working on.
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Introducing alternate win conditions only diversifies the meta.
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Introducing alternate win conditions only diversifies the meta.
I too have thought about the possibility of adding an alternate win condition at some future point (for sure NOT this year). However, despite my love for defense-heavy decks, this seems to be a bit too easy to pull off.
If neither of the GEs were TC, then that would help make it a LOT harder.
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If neither of the GEs were TC, then that would help make it a LOT harder.
There's only 1 GE. ;)
I thought about that. Would it still be too easy if they were either CBP or CBI (and not TC)?
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CBI would make it less "one-ITB-away-from-losing-the-whole-game"
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I'm not so worried about the evil one being interrupted (unless you're using it on Judas) since Phars/Sads will most likely not be passing init with a 0/0 non-battle-winning enhancement. I am worried about the good one, though (given that it's the middle of the road, if that one messes up then you're sorta screwed).
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I wouldn't say TOO overpowered, but the problem is it encourages solitaire. You never attack once, you just hold off with stall tactics for about 5 turns until you win. The reason defensive-heavy decks aren't broken is you have to wait a while. You can win VERY early with this combo, which I think isn't fair.
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I like the idea, but I think it needs a few tweaks:
1) None of them should be Territory Class
2) Pilate Should be involved somewhere
3) Add a card like: The Cross: Artifact: Upon activation, if Pilate is in play, place Son of God from Land of Bondage on this card.
4) Change Burying Christ from taking from Land of Bondage to taking from The Cross
That way the combo needs enhancements from both alignments, it needs both an attack and a block (or side battles) a fortress, an artifact, 2 dominants, and one specific character. Also this combo can be stopped at several places: Obviously the battles, the artifact can be discarded/shuffled and the fort can be discarded.
I do seriously doubt something like this will be printed, and it would need a lot of play testing to make sure it isn't overpowered, but it might be workable.
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It shouldn't be too UP either. Milling is a terrible strategy in MTG, because they never print good cards for it and keep it UP.
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UPDATED:
-The combo itself now contains 4 cards, up from 3, and requires Pontius Pilate and a NT hero in addition to the Phar/Sad/Judas.
-With the addition of the Artifact, the combo now takes 5 turns to complete, up from 4.
-The enhancements are no longer TC but are CBI. I might swap the EE to CBP, though.
-The combo now requires at least the following cards: 2 Doms, 2 Enhancements, 1 Hero, 2 ECs (up from 1), 1 Artifact (up from 0), 1 Fortress.
Notes:
-Thanks to ChristianSoldier for the artifact idea (I had thought about including one, I just hadn't figured out where along the line to put it).
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I really like the idea of an alt win condition. This version seems much easier to pull off than one that I thought up a while ago (which involved the 7 days of creation), yet is still a bit tough to pull off. Props for creativity and biblical accuracy! :)
Thanks! Biblical accuracy was something that I really wanted to keep as much as possible, which is part of what makes it hard to balance (and yet provides opportunities like the Pilate/Cross addition to add difficulty). Glad you like it. :)
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This is getting better :) However, for this to not be OP, I think each step of the process should get easier to stop.
- The first step CBI which basically means that when you play it, it can't be stopped.
- The second step would be able to be stopped most often with a dominant (DoN).
- The third step should be the easiest to stop. Therefore, I do NOT think it should be CBI or CBP. That allows it to be stopped simply by an enhancement or character.
- The fourth step of course can't be stopped because you win.
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When you put SoG in your LoB does it become a LS? If so then I love this whole thing because then this combo is reasonably easy to stop.
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When you put SoG in your LoB does it become a LS? If so then I love this whole thing because then this combo is reasonably easy to stop.
No. Just because a card is in LoB does not mean it's a LS. See: site guards, sites, demons.
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This is getting better :) However, for this to not be OP, I think each step of the process should get easier to stop.
- The first step CBI which basically means that when you play it, it can't be stopped.
- The second step would be able to be stopped most often with a dominant (DoN).
- The third step should be the easiest to stop. Therefore, I do NOT think it should be CBI or CBP. That allows it to be stopped simply by an enhancement or character.
- The fourth step of course can't be stopped because you win.
I can remove CBI from the good enhancement to balance step 3 (And even the EE in step 1 if that would be betteR), but I don't specifically know what to do for the rest.
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I can remove CBI from the good enhancement to balance step 3 (And even the EE in step 1 if that would be betteR), but I don't specifically know what to do for the rest.
One other suggestion that I would have would be to add a 5th card called "Garden of Gethsemane". It would be a site, and you could change "Jesus Bound" to place your SoG on that site (instead of in the LoB). That would help keep people from being confused about whether SoG was a LS or not (which it should NOT be). It would also bring things up to 5 cards which would seem to fit better as a win condition since it is replacing 5 redeemed souls.
Perhaps the site could also search for 1 of the later cards needed (as it's SA).
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One other suggestion that I would have would be to add a 5th card called "Garden of Gethsemane". It would be a site, and you could change "Jesus Bound" to place your SoG on that site (instead of in the LoB).
I like the idea of a site, I was trying to think of one to use, but couldn't think of where to put it or what it should do. Basically I like the idea of having it require as many card types as possible (it includes Hero, Evil character, Artifact, Fort, Dominant, Good and Evil enhancements and the maybe a site, which would be every card type (except Cov/Curse but those are both just artifacts + enhancements anyway)
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UPDATE 2:
-The combo itself now contains 5 cards, up from 4.
-A Site has been added to the combo. I made it white (for the NT theme) though I could also see purple (for Disciples). The brigade doesn't really matter that much since I made it not able to hold Souls.
-The combo still takes 5 turns to complete.
-The GE is no longer CBI. Debating whether to remove CBI from the EE as well.
-The combo now requires at least the following cards: 2 Doms, 2 Enhancements, 1 Hero, 2 ECs, 1 Artifact, 1 Fortress, 1 Site (up from 0).
Notes:
-Thanks to Prof Underwood for the Site idea as well as continued balancing tips.
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Looks pretty good to me at this point. I'm curious what some more people think about the idea.
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Personally, I love the idea...it is creative, and I think more varied ways to win keeps the game fresh...to avoid the dominance of a small number of deck types.
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Personally, I love the idea...it is creative, and I think more varied ways to win keeps the game fresh...to avoid the dominance of a small number of deck types.
Thanks! I like it, too. :P
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I think that at the end of all of this moving your SoG you should only get a free lost soul, not the whole game. Then it isn't as over powered, but it can still be deadly. ::)
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I think that at the end of all of this moving your SoG you should only get a free lost soul, not the whole game. Then it isn't as over powered, but it can still be deadly. ::)
Then nobody would use it because that's 1 less soul than you can get by the usual SoG/NJ combo. This needs to get you at least 2 souls (because that's how many SoG/NJ gets) to be on par, and should give even more considering the combo is so much harder to pull off (and has a lot more counters). I think the way it is now, getting the equivalent of 5 souls is balanced for this combo.
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Like: alternate win condition that seems balanced.
Dislike: have to run Purple or White with Grey to use.
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Dislike: have to run Purple or White with Grey to use.
Blame that on trying to be Biblically accurate, haha. Glad you like it, though. :)
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Like: alternate win condition that seems balanced.
Dislike: have to run Purple or White with Grey to use.
Eventually it could be interesting if each brigade had their own completely separate and unique win condition like this. That would really open the game up to some interesting variety.
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Eventually it could be interesting if each brigade had their own completely separate and unique win condition like this. That would really open the game up to some interesting variety.
I thought about something for Luke/John good gold (and/or perhaps silver) that dealt with winning when your opponent is decked out, given that Redemption is the only deck-building card game I know of where you don't lose when your deck is empty.
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It should rescue 2 lost souls, or 3 if used with NJ. does this work ;)
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Like: alternate win condition that seems balanced.
Dislike: have to run Purple or White with Grey to use.
Eventually it could be interesting if each brigade had their own completely separate and unique win condition like this. That would really open the game up to some interesting variety.
I would love this. When I get some free time (perhaps over break) I'd like to take a look at making the brigades more unique, instead of just using a different CBN interrupt battlewinner.
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Like: alternate win condition that seems balanced.
Dislike: have to run Purple or White with Grey to use.
Eventually it could be interesting if each brigade had their own completely separate and unique win condition like this. That would really open the game up to some interesting variety.
I would love this. When I get some free time (perhaps over break) I'd like to take a look at making the brigades more unique, instead of just using a different CBN interrupt battlewinner.
If you want any help, I'd be glad to assist. :)
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That'd be awesome. I don't like the meta being dominated by "which brigade can draw fastest!"
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I'm thinking abut updating silver since it is getting under-used.
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I'm thinking abut updating silver since it is getting under-used.
Silver is used just as a side with other themes. Judges and Isaiah are a good example.
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I'm thinking abut updating silver since it is getting under-used.
Silver can effectively be splashed into almost any theme. Cherubim (both versions), Seraph/Seraphim, TSA/CoTH, Angel in the Path WA and, the two new angels for example.
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Rob has stated that silver is not supposed to be a main brigade. It's a support brigade, and a good one at that.
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I have not been fallowing what other people are commenting, but here is what I think:
I dont mind Jesus Bound, or Garden of Gethsemane. But, I think Victory Over Death, The Cross and Burying Christ combo is not the best idea for a few reasons- 1) Wouldnt it just replace New Jerusalem? If you dont even play SOG and win the game, there is no need for NJ. So, it would replace it. The bad thing with that is, everyone, and I mean everyone would be using all defense decks because nothing can stop it. If your going against a deck with all cannot be negated cards, your offense can be destroyed. So, if one person uses all defense, then someone cant stop it, they will start using it. Then the whole game, Redemtion, would only be about three cards that are totaly unstopable. Then if everyone is using those cards; wouldnt it be a matter of who draws them first?
2) Victory Over Death; If you have a marker on SOG in TGT, wouldnt your opponent know your tracking it, because its kinda hard to tell how long a turn has been.
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The "turns" would tick during the player's upkeep phase just like set asides and everything else that counts turns does.
As for the stoppable-ness of this, it's actually fairly simple to stop if you don't support it with some protective cards. The enhancements can be interrupted/negated, the artifact, site, and fortress can all be discarded (and your SoG would go with them, meaning you'd also lose the ability to play it for a single soul), the dominant could be discarded from deck/hand before the turn requirement to play it has passed, not to mention all the specific characters you would need that could be killed/removed/captured/what have you before you can use them. If you wanted to make this work, you would have to build a specific deck around it including artifact/fortress/site protection.
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All this argument over something that will never happen, and if it does I and several others will never play the game again. Garden Tomb eliminated actual battles from the game, and this would do the same.
Your talk about these cards being so easily discarded before the combo comes out is almost moot if the person never makes rescue attempts. Other than Given over to Egypt (I think) and a TC enhancement I can think of, there are few ways to discard cards from someone's decks if they never make rescue attempts. So everyone's huge defense to combat this would become Egyptians. So much for variety, and so much for having battles anymore. Jerusalem Tower would protect their deck anyway, and there are two TC enhancements now, Consider the Lillies and Birth Foretold, that they can use to pull Burying Christ and Son of God from their deck. If they are willing to make rescue attempts (like once their deck/hand are protected), they can use Attending Angel to search for a site OR a good fortress, The Magi to search for the artifact, and Priests of Christ to search (hopefully) for a good dominant. Or just use a prophet + Hidden Treasures + Search to take whatever card they want. So every defense would include Nazareth too, to stop all the searching. Throw in the standard First Fruits and Pentecost, just for drawing more cards, maybe a Hur +Gifts, make the rest of the deck defense, and in you're in good shape for a win where you never actually rescue a single lost soul.
Cudos for the biblical accuracy, as others have pointed out, but the rest of this just fundamentally breaks the premise of the game - the BATTLE between good and evil on this earth. Let's also think about what you're TRYING to make happen here. You are TRYING to get Jesus crucified (and raised) so that you can win the game. Am I the only one that has a problem with this? "Sure hope I can get my Jesus dead and buried before the other guy!"
Lastly, what is it about Jesus being raised that should win ME the game anyway? If any event should do this, shouldn't it be something about His return?
Anyway, just some random first thoughts I have on this.
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As for the stoppable-ness of this, it's actually fairly simple to stop if you don't support it with some protective cards. The enhancements can be interrupted/negated, the artifact, site, and fortress can all be discarded (and your SoG would go with them, meaning you'd also lose the ability to play it for a single soul), the dominant could be discarded from deck/hand before the turn requirement to play it has passed, not to mention all the specific characters you would need that could be killed/removed/captured/what have you before you can use them. If you wanted to make this work, you would have to build a specific deck around it including artifact/fortress/site protection.
[/quote]I guess it could be stopped if you have cards that discards cards from opponents deck and have destructive sin and image of jealousy. But I still think that too many people would have this sort of deck.
- Redemtion is not the same as it use to be, its all about drawing out dominants as fast as you can, and these cards would make people try to draw out these 5 cards faster and win the game in three turns. The original Redemtion game had 4 dominants. The original Redemtion was all about having a battle with enahncements. Would there be any good enhancements, beside set-asides in a deck that you need three turns to win?
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Anyone else (who would know what I'm talking about) feel like this is basically exodia for redemption?
You are TRYING to get Jesus crucified (and raised) so that you can win the game. Am I the only one that has a problem with this? "Sure hope I can get my Jesus ead and buried before the other guy!"
Obligatory "if Jesus were never crucified Christianity wouldn't exist and this conversation wouldn't be happening" respond.
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I know what you're talking about even though I've never played the game and it (from what I heard) didn't really hurt the game significantly because Yu-Gi-Oh (spelled wrong) is so much slower on drawing and they have a larger deck size and the penalty of losing when they can't draw anymore.
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Redemption has none of those things. And you spelled it right.
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Would there be any good enhancements, beside set-asides in a deck that you need three turns to win?
This can't happen in 3 turns. And most of it can be negated without protection. It requires at least 12 cards.
First you need to get out J-Tower, and a Temple with Lampstand of the Sanctuary in it. Then you need to place "Garden of Gethsemane" in play as well. At this point, your opponent knows what your win strategy is, and can plan for it. In fact, they could just not attack until they had drawn their counters to shut it down. As long as they don't attack, you can't defend, which means that you can never enter battle to play "Jesus Bound"
Cards needed:
J-Tower
Temple
LotS
Garden of Gethsemane
SoG
2 EC (Pharisees, Saducees, or Judas Iscariot)
Jesus Bound
The Cross
TGT
Burying Christ
Victory Over Death
Garden Tomb eliminated actual battles from the game, and this would do the same.
This is not really comparable to TGT, and is more like comparing to a Zeb-deck or a WS-deck. Both of those decks actually have really FUN battles because they play big defenses that can sometimes stand up to the super powerful offenses. Then by the end of the game if the offense hasn't broken through, then Zeb or WS walk in for the win. But the key is that the defense has to hold out first. This is totally different than TGT which just walks in right off the bat.
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I don't know why people think you can complete this combo in 3 turns.... It needs to be placed on TGT for at least 3 turns, let alone the site and artifact (which are one turn each). Am I missing something that would let you finish this in 3 turns?
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@Steff: Side battles. Prophet + HT = Sword of the Lord = ASA kills your TGT, bye bye!