Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Prof Underwood on January 18, 2009, 11:31:04 PM
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There have been some of these threads in the past (I think which all died in the latest purge) however, I would like to make an announcement.
After being an amazingly strong proponent of the next dominant being one that destroys 1 site for the last 2 years, I have to now officially withdraw my support for that idea.
As many of you know, the strategy that I hate the most in Redemption is ignore. I want both players to be able to be involved in the game, and just sitting there walking in for LSs (or watching your opponent do it) is really not very fun for anybody. Now thanks to The Garden Tomb decks, this ignore strategy is becoming more prevalent than ever. And it now becomes even more necessary to have defensive protection from the forts. Otherwise, Jepthah, ET + AoCP, Holy Grail, Women as Snares, etc turn a Redemption game into a spectator sport.
Therefore, I am now advocating a new dominant, which would have a special ability somewhat like the following.
"Interrupt all ignore abilities and add 1 character to battle."
This would not be overpowered because the character would still be being ignored once in battle, and so they would also have to have some sort of interrupt or negate to go along with it, or some sneaky technique that didn't require harming the opponent. But it would at least allow people to have a battle. And that makes the game more fun for everyone.
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i think it should be a double sided dominant could be kept in play to protect all charecters in holder's territory from discard abillities and protect all of holder's characters from being captued,converted,ignored, etc
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Dude...that would be the most OP card ever. I like the idea of a card that could help you get past an ignore. However, there are a number of ways to make ignore CBN. How about this:
"If you have not yet entered battle this turn, you may add a character from your territory to the battle, regardless of any ongoing special abilities."
This would be a nice card for a number of circumstances, including getting past an annoying Burial Shroud for a turn, and would be difficult to abuse. (Your version could be used to strengthen a FbtN, avoid AotL, choose the blocker, etc.)
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just thinking of protection from all cards from Wrath of Satan,Great Image and AoCP
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Aww Professor doesn't like my deck :'( :D I guess thats a good thing ;)
I think that dominant would actually be a bit UP'd I mean woopdeedoo you blocked 1 ra what about your opponent having enh's? I don't play enhancement less by any means. Like this TGT is outband in Mary,Salome,Mary Magdelen,Joaana play He is Risen band in TSA (wa) and boom you have a 31/27 FBTN battle (TGT makes the band CBN)
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You know how this could be utilized? Maybe a special ability like this:
"Place this card in an opponent's territory. While this card is there, all ignore abilities on opponent's characters are negated. When opponent has completed a successful rescue attempt, they may discard this card."
Or something like that. I know that's more like an enhancement, but it'd be a cool dominant.
~TM
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that'slike the Anti-Ignore soul and besides that would'nt hurt TGT at all
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"If you have not yet entered battle this turn, you may add a character from your territory to the battle, regardless of any ongoing special abilities."
I like this except for the "territory" requirement. I would suggest:
If you have not yet entered battle this turn, you may add a character to the battle, regardless of any ongoing special abilities.
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Yeah, sure, that works.
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Hm. Forgot about that. How bout this?
"Place this card in an opponent's territory. While this card is there, all ignore abilities on opponent's cards are negated. When opponent has completed a successful rescue attempt, they may discard this card."
Or, we could kill two birds with one stone. There are lots of fortresses that get on our nerves. Methinks we have a card that does this, but maybe not.
"Place this card on a good Fortress in an opponent's territory. While this card is there, all special abilities on that fortress are negated. When opponent has completed a successful rescue attempt, they may discard this card."
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It sounds sort of like Spreading Mildew, except it doesn't even get rid of the fortress.
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When opponent has completed a successful rescue attempt, they may discard this card."
This seems a bit too easy. One AotL and you're back to ignoring everyone. If the dominant can be discarded, then I would prefer it to require at least 2 successful rescue attempts.
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I was going to say that, but my concern was that would be too hard.
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"Place this card in an opponent's territory. While this card is there, all ignore abilities on opponent's characters,Fortresses and enhancements are negated. When opponent has completed a successful rescue attempt, they must discard this card, They may discard a good card from hand to keep it in territory"
^^^^^the above is a bit OP'd but it would stop TGT
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what about
"Interrupt the battle negate and discard one fortress and, or, add a character to battle"
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"Place in a territory. Negate any ability that would stop a character from entering battle."
This makes it a bit more useful.
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If you're looking at a dominant to hinder ignores how about...
Place in any territory. When played, this card becomes a 6/6 Evil Character in the brigade of your choice. While in territory this card negates all hero "ignore" abilities effecting this brigade and is protected from discard, capture, and set-aside abilities.
"Place in a territory. Negate any ability that would stop a character from entering battle."
This makes it a bit more useful.
It makes it a bit more useful by making it slightly OP, IMO.
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Yes it does. I completely agree. But not op'd enough to make it a staple.
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Yes it does. I completely agree. But not op'd enough to make it a staple.
Of course, if you made it a good dominant, then Desecrate the Temple could take it out, which would weaken it a bit.
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why not just start making evil characters or a new ability(that doesn't have to activate in battle) that prevents evil characters outside of battle from being ignored
for example, these cards could have an identifier called intimidation meaning they can't be ignored by any abilities. A Goliath reprint would fit well with this idea. The actual abilities on the character can be dumbed down a bit because not being able to be ignored is still pretty powerful.
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I'm sorry, but that's a fail idea Gohanick. The other options have been much more viable IMO.
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Ignores in general aren't really the problem; O.T. ignores get shut down by a variety of cards. What we need is a card that targets either N.T. ignores or perhaps all ignores that can be used in any deck (i.e. an artifact, lost soul, etc).
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Sadly P. breastplate doesnt work on forts.
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I'm sorry, but that's a fail idea Gohanick. The other options have been much more viable IMO.
Why are you so rude? Couldn't you at least explain to him why his idea isn't as good as the others? If not, then maybe there's nothing wrong with it in the first place.
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I kinda like the idea. Typically, Redemption has not had abilities like the one he is suggesting, but it IS kinda similar to warrior class in a way.
I like it. It would need some tweaking, but I like it.
Cameron
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for example, these cards could have an identifier called intimidation meaning they can't be ignored by any abilities. A Goliath reprint would fit well with this idea. The actual abilities on the character can be dumbed down a bit because not being able to be ignored is still pretty powerful.
Not a bad idea. A character with the SA "Cannot be Ignored" could be useful, but not too overpowered.
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I'm still of the opinion that the next Dominant should be one that Interrupts all Artifacts and Discards any Good Fortress in play or set-aside. TGT and Z-Temple decks basically rely on nothing but two hard-to-kill fortresses that severely limit what the opponent can do on defense. A Dom to kill those would do just the trick, and it wouldn't be unstoppable if you used Protection of Jerusalem. You could also use it to stop David's Throne, Obediah's Caves, etc.
The reason I still propose this as the next Dom is that while the defensive theme fortresses enhance the theme but aren't required, the offensive fortresses completely buttress the strategy which largely fails without them. In the current game environment, that's ok because it's nigh on impossible to get rid of Fortresses. RDJ is the only viable option (because unlike all the other Fort killers it's useful even if the opponent doesn't have a staple Fortress, whereas Spreading Mildew etc. is a non-battle-winner at best and a completely wasted card at worst), but even then it prevents you from using the best offenses because it would destroy your own staple.
The best part about the Dominant is that it wouldn't necessarily be a staple. By introducing an easier way to destroy fortresses, fewer people would build offenses that rely on them. Then fewer people would feel the need to include the Dom, and balance would be restored.
However, if it did end up being this Dominant, I'd be happy too.
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Its a battle winner with E warden. But I agree. Or maybe a multi colored card like lug?
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That's what I vote, maybe something like this:
Romans Defile the Temple
3/3 MC EE
"Discard one fortress in play."
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Have fun in the garden.
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Re: The next Redemption dominant card
I'm pretty sure there will be six dominants in the next release. ;)
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Re: The next Redemption dominant card
I'm pretty sure there will be six dominants in the next release. ;)
not to burst your bubble but i think the new release is gonna be the I/J starters.
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Re: The next Redemption dominant card
I'm pretty sure there will be six dominants in the next release. ;)
not to burst your bubble but i think the new release is gonna be the I/J starters.
The I/J starter will contain 6 dominants instead of 4? You heard it here first folks! :o
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Re: The next Redemption dominant card
I'm pretty sure there will be six dominants in the next release. ;)
not to burst your bubble but i think the new release is gonna be the I/J starters.
The I/J starter will contain 6 dominants instead of 4? You heard it here first folks! :o
I hope there are 6. If not, one deck will be slightly more powerful than the other. ;)
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Re: The next Redemption dominant card
I'm pretty sure there will be six dominants in the next release. ;)
not to burst your bubble but i think the new release is gonna be the I/J starters.
The I/J starter will contain 6 dominants instead of 4? You heard it here first folks! :o
there have already been 6 dominants in starters.
2 sogs, 2 aotls, a cm and a burial ;)
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Romans Defile the Temple
3/3 MC EE
"Discard one fortress in play."
I would make it
3/3 MC EE
Discard all NT heroes and all fortresses in play. Can't be negated.
Wait, that would be too OP, maybe we could limit it to Romans or something. How about,
3/3 MC EE
If used by a Roman, discard all NT heroes and all fortresses in play. Can't be negated.
I like it, except why would Romans destroy Rome--that doesn't make any sense. Let's try...
3/3 MC EE
If used by a Roman, discard all NT heroes and all fortresses in play, except Rome. Can't be negated.
Just about perfect. The only thing nagging at me is that all the new Roman emperors are like 10/1, so maybe we should redistribute the ability points to stick with that theme. So, we end up with
6/0 MC EE
If used by a Roman, discard all NT heroes and all fortresses in play, except Rome. Can't be negated.
That would be schweet. Now if I could only come up with a name.
;)
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MC?
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The problem with an enhancement or an EC special ability is that they will never be able to be played vs. a TGT deck. That is why we need a card that is a dominant (or some sort of new identifier that makes a character unable to be ignored).
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How about a Fortress?
While this Fortess is in play your protected from all "cheap shots" your opponent might take. This includes coward blocks, choose the blocker, choose the rescuer and ignore abilities. You may discard a good Dominant to negate this for one round.
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The problem with an enhancement or an EC special ability is that they will never be able to be played vs. a TGT deck.
That's not correct. Although it takes some foresight in deck building, it's nowhere near impossible or even difficult to play an EC or an EE against a TGT deck. Take it from someone who had his TGT offense dismantled by his son's well designed counter at a recent tournament.
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Protection forts usually help, the only issue I have is when that fort dies, or doesn't get drawn.
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I personally like: "star of your gods" from another thread. That dominant can change the face of Defensive stand if you can go in your or your opponent's discard pile and pull out an EC. Make it a bander and boom you have 2 ECs in battle or 2 of the same brigade in play. Lots of variation there...
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How about this as a dominant:
"If your opponent is ignoring any of your characters before you enter battle, you may negate and discard all of your opponent's cards in play (except Lost Souls)."
:angel:
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im really late into this topic but hasnt any one heard of lurking before or even darkness(the fort)?
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im really late into this topic but hasnt any one heard of lurking before or even darkness(the fort)?
Neither of those will be any good against a Garden Tomb deck.
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After reading this thread I couldn't help but think about all the old threads that went something like this:
"oh noes FBN is so OP. There's nothing to stop it. Blah blah blah."
The problem is not ignore, the problem is pre-block ignore. That is why I was so displeased with Jacob when FooF was released. The last thing this game needed was another Ethiopian Treasurer. The Garden Tomb poses the same problem and has no direct counters. Is there even a card that targets NT Fortresses?
Currently, the only option to combat The Garden Tomb are Defiant and Masquerading. Go look up their special abilities because I know most of you probably don't remember what they are. Then you hit the problem of being able to play them in the first place.
I am also very sure that solving balance issues with dominants is not the way to go. We need cards that won't log jam deck building not more "use this or lose" cards.
We need a batch of cards that have the same wording as Defiant and Masquerading. Set aside cards would really shine here. Here's some ideas:
Defiant
Palegreen/Orange Enhancement
Set aside a demon for one turn. On return, demon may gain "Cannot be ignored while remaining in play" or "Cannot be removed from the game while remaining in play."
Masquerading
Crimson/Orange Enhancement
Set aside a demon for one turn. On return, demon gains either "Cannot be ignored while remaining in play" or "Cannot be discarded while remaining in play.
Stubbornness
Gray/Black Enhancement
Set aside up to X generic, human Evil Characters for X turns. On return, characters gain either "Cannot be ignored while remaining in play'' or "Cannot be converted while remaining in play." If X is greater than 4, characters may gain both.
X=Number of Fortresses one opponent has in play
Sean
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for example, these cards could have an identifier called intimidation meaning they can't be ignored by any abilities. A Goliath reprint would fit well with this idea. The actual abilities on the character can be dumbed down a bit because not being able to be ignored is still pretty powerful.
Not a bad idea. A character with the SA "Cannot be Ignored" could be useful, but not too overpowered.
Looks like the phrase "Cannot be Ignored" has precedence as far back as Angel Wars. Nice find, Sean, and great ideas.
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Beating The Garden Tomb is easy: don't rescue until your defense is set up with a few characters and a protection fort. :)
If you think you might face Garden Tomb, play one evil brigade and use a good number of ECs.
Of course, there will be some interesting ways to combat TGT in the next set, too. :)
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Yay, our first spoiler! ;D
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Beating The Garden Tomb is easy: don't rescue until your defense is set up with a few characters and a protection fort. :)
Oddly enough I did just beat a TGT deck by waiting forever to take my first LS. However, that won't work against a deck that uses TGT as well as other ways to win LSs. Waiting that long just means they get to 5 first.
If you think you might face Garden Tomb, play one evil brigade and use a good number of ECs.
Almost all my decks this year have one evil brigade, a good number of ECs, and a protection fort. Yet still it is easier to draw a TGT hero (when there are 4 in your deck) and TGT (or the hero who pulls it out), than it is to draw 3 ECs in your first turn. And you need 3 most times because there are so many ways to take out ECs (Holy Grail, Jepthah, AotL, etc.) before they get a chance to block. And if they draw ET + AoCP, then having 3 ECs doesn't matter either.
I know it seems like it should be easy to stop TGT, but in actual games, it seems like it is unexpectedly difficult.
Of course, there will be some interesting ways to combat TGT in the next set, too. :)
That is good to hear. I also hope that there will be a lack of more cards of that nature. We don't need more ways to stop people playing a game from being able to even play.