Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: The Guardian on January 28, 2018, 04:22:25 PM
Title: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 28, 2018, 04:22:25 PM
So here's the deal...Rapha, the Father of Giants will be in the black brigade and will be Warrior Class. There's no sense is spending time on a vote for those things. :)
However, his stats (*/*) can definitely be voted on and discussed, and I will allow vote changing in this round. Unlike the last round, I want to encourage people to share their creative reasons for the stats they vote for.
A few notes: --12/12 is the maximum stats we have set for characters so there will not be any higher options that that. --Traditionally Giants have had stats that added up to 20, with that in mind, I am going to make the minimum stats (for either side) 8. (If someone presents a very compelling reason to go below 8, I will consider adding it as an option.) Also, being that Rapha was the "big daddy" of the family of giants, we are open to him going above 20 on the total stats (so the options will be between 8 & 12 for both strength and toughness). --Everyone will have two votes; ideally everyone should vote for one of the strength options and one of the toughness options, but I can't really control that so if you really want to vote for 2 different strength options...go with your bad self. :P
Voting on stats will end this Thursday at 3:25 pm.
Lastly, I will begin taking suggestions for the special ability (including ideas for a Territory Class character). I will present the ideas to the playtest team and together we will review them, make wording tweaks, ensure the ability would fit and then present the ones we feel are the best choices for a player vote. You can make submissions here or via PM to myself.
To help people monitor the length of the SA, Gabe has written the following which uses the maximum space we have available in the text box. ______________________________________________________________________ "When you write a special ability it will need to be no longer than this block of text. If you use things like Enhancement or opponents, they can cause text to cut off a row early which shortens the SA." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your special ability is longer than that it cannot be used without modifications to shorten it.
Can't wait to hear your ideas! :D
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 28, 2018, 04:40:41 PM
I think I kinda see where this voting is going.... unless somebody gives a reason for not going 12/12 :P
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 28, 2018, 04:43:47 PM
My votes:
Strength -- 11 Toughness -- 11
I definitely think that as the Father of the Giants, Rapha should be higher than the usual 20 that giants get. However, because we don't really know of any huge battles he was in, I didn't think he necessarily needed to be at the "12" level.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: redemption collector 777 on January 28, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
My vote is 9/12 because according to lackey there is no evil characters with this stats ever printed so far.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 28, 2018, 05:50:02 PM
I like 12/12 too. Might as well stat stuff this guy.
Rapha the Giant
12/12 Territory class
Each time you play a giant you may search deck, discard pile, or reserve for a philistine evil character or black weapon. When blocking, discard an enhancement (in play) to protect philistines in territory from opponent's cards. CBN
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Noah on January 28, 2018, 06:05:37 PM
Rapha, Father of Giants
12/12
Warrior Class Territory Class
Special ability: Search deck or discard pile reserve for a Philistine Giant. If a Philistine Giant is removed from battle, you may add a generic Philistine to battle (Limit once per turn). Cannot be negated.
Philistines need a way around AotL.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on January 28, 2018, 06:12:57 PM
I voted for 12 Strength 11 Strength because somebody's gotta be that guy.
Just kidding, I voted for the max.
You may search Reserve for a Giant. If your Giant is holding a weapon, negate other characters and Enhancements in battle. Cannot be interrupted.
Let's you stash some guys in your reserve, and creates interesting tension with the 'discard to use' weapons
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 28, 2018, 06:57:56 PM
I voted for 12 Strength 11 Strength because somebody's gotta be that guy.
Just kidding, I voted for the max.
You may search Reserve for a Giant. If your Giant is holding a weapon, negate other characters and Enhancements in battle. Cannot be interrupted.
Let's you stash some guys in your reserve, and creates interesting tension with the 'discard to use' weapons
Do you want the negate other character and enhancements in battle to function like bringing fear? That would be really cool, because I assume it's territory class. Or do you want your enhancements to be negated as well?
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 28, 2018, 06:59:32 PM
The more cards that are printed with "negate all enhancements/characters" the more CBN/CPB/CPI cards will be made....
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Asahel24601 on January 28, 2018, 07:34:58 PM
Rapha, Father of Giants 10/12 Territory class Warrior class Philistine When you are attacked, you may search deck or reserve for a giant and put them in play. If blocking, you may negate a card not in battle. Cannot be prevented.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Jeremystair on January 28, 2018, 08:48:57 PM
Rapha, Father of Giants 12/12 Territory class Warrior class Philistine When you are attacked, you may search deck, discard pile or reserve for a Black card. If a Philistine is removed from battle, you may add a Philistine to battle (Limit once per turn). Cannot be negated.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 28, 2018, 09:20:19 PM
Search deck or Reserve for a Philistine giant or a black weapon. If blocking, negate characters (except Philistines and Giant-Slayers) and non-weapon class Enhancements in battle. Cannot be prevented by an O.T. card.
Some of the submissions have correctly specified “Philistine giant” while others just say “giant.” The scriptures that talks about the sons of “the giant” (Rapha) are all specific to Philly giants. There were other giants who were not Phillies, such as Og, king of Bashan and the descendants of Anak (the Anakim), both of whom were Canaanites and not Philistines. In the event that these other giants are made in the future, I strongly suggest that whatever special ability is decided on with Rapha (such as searching out a giant) that the ability specifies Philistine giant and not just “giant.”
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 28, 2018, 09:33:36 PM
It just cuts down on the word count and practically all giants are philistines anyways. Having the card work with Canaanite giants isn't major, thematically it works too because Canaanites are also black in Redemption. Sometimes realism has to take a back seat to pragmatism; either way, I am pretty this card is driving.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: EmJayBee83 on January 28, 2018, 10:19:48 PM
So here's the deal...Rapha, the Father of Giants will be in the black brigade and will be Warrior Class. There's no sense is spending time on a vote for those things. :)
Shucks. I was hoping for an option that would make the Kings version of the Giants useful again. Something where Rapha could be Black/Gold/Crimson/Gray.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on January 28, 2018, 10:27:58 PM
I agree with Noah that Philistine Giants need help vs. AotL. Plus, an add-to-battle/battle-extender ability also fits thematically with Rapha being a father - "sending forth" his sons from territory. Finally, they also need drawing, Reserve access, and initiative. I just don't know how to fit it all on 1 card! Perhaps the numbers should be low so Rapha could be an initiative option and wouldn't always sit in territory?
Territory Class
"If a Philistine is removed from battle, you may add a Giant to battle. When your Giant enters battle, you may draw 1 or search Reserve for an evil card. Cannot be interrupted."
Maybe 1/5 or 5/1 numbers (due to 5 sons)?
EDIT NOTE: I added "you may" to the SA, as there was room for it
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: EmJayBee83 on January 28, 2018, 10:41:33 PM
Rapha, Father of Giants 10/12
Territory Class
No opponent may access his reserve. All spears gain the abilities "Play the first enhancement. Toss all non-weapon class enhancements played in this battle" when placed on a giant. Cannot be negated by a good card.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on January 28, 2018, 10:54:20 PM
Travis described very well here (http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/the-2018-community-created-card-name-that-character!/msg577332/#msg577332) that Rapha, Father of Giants is the patriarchal father of the giants of this time period, including Og, King of Basha a Canaanite. Having descendants that reside in a Nation later in your lineage does not make you of that same lineage.
TLDR; Rapha has descendants who are Philistine but is not Philistine himself.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 28, 2018, 11:00:45 PM
We should have done a second vote between the top 2... If people knew Rapha wasn't going to have the Philistine identifier they might want to vote for another candidate.
Edit: just my 2c
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 28, 2018, 11:20:54 PM
Yeah, just make him philistine. I don't think anyone really cares.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on January 29, 2018, 12:18:54 AM
If people knew Rapha wasn't going to have the Philistine identifier they might want to vote for another candidate.
I understand where the idea comes from that he might be Philistine, or even Canaanite, but Travis shared his findings long before the vote took place. I'm sorry if someone still presumed that he would be Philistine and that greatly influenced their vote. I hadn't seen a large push to add that identifier prior to now or I would have pointed it out sooner.
Yeah, just make him philistine. I don't think anyone really cares.
We attempt to make this game as accurate as possible given what we know. To add an identifier because "we want it" is simply not that way we do things. We cannot set that kind of precedent.
Part of the process of allowing the community to make a card is to take you all through the same (sometimes painful) processes that we have to go through to get a card in it's final form. This is a great opportunity for everyone to see what that looks like.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: ChristianSoldier on January 29, 2018, 12:37:43 AM
Rapha Father of Giants 9/12, WC, TC X = Number of Philistine Giants in play Special Ability: When this character enters play search your deck or reserve for a Philistine Giant. Each Philistine Giant is increased by X/X. Negate play abilities. If a Giant is in battle, the first good enhancement played in battle is Tossed. Cannot be Negated if Gath is in play.
I would want the increase ability to be an ongoing one, so that the Giants are only increased while he's in play, so my wording might be a bit off. I wanted the ability because I like the idea of Giants being Giant, while still keeping to the 12/12 being the max printed number. I didn't max out his offense because he was never active during the Bible (except as the father of active giants) it also gives a good reason for him to be territory class. I added the CBN part because 2 Samuel 21:22 mentions how the 4 giants in the chapter were from Gath and I thought it would be cool to boost it if Gath was in play (plus it gives a reason to print Gath as a site or fort) I could probably do without the search, but I think it fits for him to pull out a Philistine Giant. Negating play abilities is mostly to prevent toss + Philistine Chariot and Horses, plus it would make using him an interesting choice, do you want the Philistine Chariot and Horses or do you want Rapha, and it would still be brutal with the Giant's Spears from the I deck. Toss is an interesting ability, it would make the Giant's Spears brutal (as I mentioned before) plus it would be interesting in combination with the Giant's lack of initiative by forcing them to burn an enhancement first and depending on the situation pass initiative.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Red on January 29, 2018, 07:26:01 AM
Rapha, Father of Giants. 10/12 WC TC Search deck or Reserve for a Giant. All Giants increase 3/3 while Rapha is in play. When one blocks, search deck for a black brigade enhancement. Cannot be Prevented.
I wanted a monster of a boost for giants (Philistines) This version of Rapha isn't culturally bound and turns black giants into a negate factory. He also continues the searching theme of black on defense, as well as makes giants more giant.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Josh on January 29, 2018, 08:45:00 AM
I agree with Noah that Philistine Giants need help vs. AotL. Plus, an add-to-battle/battle-extender ability also fits thematically with Rapha being a father - "sending forth" his sons from territory. Finally, they also need drawing, Reserve access, and initiative.
I actually would prefer that different themes have strengths and weaknesses. If every theme has the same suite of utility cards and abilities, the tiebreaker comes down to the raw power characters - the characters that can win battles or games on their own if left unchecked. And in that regard, Philistines are way ahead of almost all other defensive themes. If they get a character that grants ongoing drawing as well as AotL evasion to other giants, that's going to take the Goliath/12FG/Saph/PAB core and make it... Who knows how strong. Maybe meta-twisting.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on January 29, 2018, 09:04:34 AM
To help people monitor the length of the SA I've written the following which uses the maximum space we have available in the text box.
"When you write a special ability it will need to be no longer than this block of text. If you use things like Enhancement or opponents, they can cause text to cut off a row early which shortens the SA."
If your special ability is longer than that it cannot be used without modifications to shorten it.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: CountFount on January 29, 2018, 09:23:00 AM
Territory Class
Negate Artifacts. Discard Reserves. Once per game, Owner may shuffle everything of all players except redeemed souls and discard piles back into draw pile, draw eight and start a new turn. Cannot be negated.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: ChristianSoldier on January 29, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
"When you write a special ability it will need to be no longer than this block of text. If you use things like Enhancement or opponents, they can cause text to cut off a row early which shortens the SA."
In an attempt to shorten my suggested ability without changing what it does (too much anyway, I removed all references to Philistines) I have come up with this (all my notes from my previous post still apply): Rapha Father of Giants 9/12, WC, TC X = Number of Philistine Giants in play You may search your deck or reserve for a Giant. Increase all Giants by X/X. Negate play abilities. If a Giant is in battle Toss the First good Enhancement. Cannot be Negated if Gath is in play.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Ironisaac on January 29, 2018, 10:46:27 AM
12/12, black, WC TC
When put in play, gain a nationality of your choice.
If you are attacked, you may search your deck or Reserve for a Giant and/or a black weapon, and you may equip a black weapon to any black warrior with or without a weapon already equipped.
Could this be shortened some how? I want him to give you the ability to give someone a second weapon, which i think would be pretty sweet, but maybe OP. How else could this be reworded? Specifically, I'm wondering if the "with or with out a weapon already equipped" is technically necessary. Because if not, i could add cbn to him, which he needs imo.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: EmJayBee83 on January 29, 2018, 11:05:00 AM
SA: Not sure - however, the special ability should enable the unique giants to gain an advantage since they were descended from the original giant Canaanites mentioned in Genesis 14:5.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Josh on January 29, 2018, 12:24:22 PM
Being the "Father of Giants", I think Rapha's ability should emphasize getting giants into hand, play, and battle. I've opted for a stronger one-time-use and coupled it with a way to give Philistines a battle extender. (Banish just seems appropriate here since Rapha wasn't around when the other famous giants in the Bible were.) The "If equipped" ability also creates tension (to borrow RDT's word) with losing the weapon if you use the Banish ability.
Rapha, Father of Giants 12/12 Black Evil Character WC, TC, Giant "While equipped, negate Artifacts. If your giant is harmed, you may banish this character instead to search deck and/or Reserve for two giants and add your giant to battle. Cannot be negated.”
EDIT: Revised ability on page 3 of thread to accommodate the arguments below
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 29, 2018, 12:32:21 PM
If people knew Rapha wasn't going to have the Philistine identifier they might want to vote for another candidate.
I understand where the idea comes from that he might be Philistine, or even Canaanite, but Travis shared his findings long before the vote took place. I'm sorry if someone still presumed that he would be Philistine and that greatly influenced their vote. I hadn't seen a large push to add that identifier prior to now or I would have pointed it out sooner.
Yeah, just make him philistine. I don't think anyone really cares.
We attempt to make this game as accurate as possible given what we know. To add an identifier because "we want it" is simply not that way we do things. We cannot set that kind of precedent.
Part of the process of allowing the community to make a card is to take you all through the same (sometimes painful) processes that we have to go through to get a card in it's final form. This is a great opportunity for everyone to see what that looks like.
Travis’ research is pretty interesting, for sure. But his own findings were inconclusive. He presented research and facts but there was still no definitive answer to the question if “the giant” (haRapha, in Hebrew) was an actual person or if the word/term was referring to a people group or attributes related to a person or people group. And the scriptures that are being referenced for Rapha father of giants is within the context of him being the father of four Philistine giants (or that these Philly giants were of “the giant” people group). There’s other biblical evidence suggesting that the Canaanite giants are not necessarily of the same line as the Philistine giants (archaeological evidence suggests that the Philistines came later than the Canaanites) and to suggest that a guy named Rapha is the father of ALL of the different giant people groups is a stretch.
This Rapha character is ambiguous, at best. I like the creative idea of Rapha, father of giants (even though it’s strange to say “Giant, father of giants,” which is the translation) as it makes for an interesting character, but there simply is no definitive proof that he’s an actual person who fathered all of the giants.
My suggestion was that if we’re treating him as a character it would be cleaner to make him a Philistine giant since the Bible reference(s) we are most likely going to use are the ones from II Samuel 21 and I Chronicles 20, which speaks of the four Philistine giants being descendants of “the giant.”
This article may shed more light on this whole subject:
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 29, 2018, 01:28:24 PM
Quote
(even though it’s strange to say “Giant, father of giants,” which is the translation)
You've never met anyone named Eric Ericson or John Johnson? ;)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: bmc25 on January 29, 2018, 01:33:01 PM
12/12 Rapha, Father of Giants
Territory Class: Philistine Characters cannot be negated. All Giants may band to any amount of Giants. While Rapha is in Battle Negate all special abilities on characters and non-weapon class enhancements.
1) This would allow the black brigade Lahmi, Saph, and Ishbibinob to band to each other.
2) He would be an Evil Character version of Captain of the host.
3) Evil Banding is strong against the current meta Martyrs/throne of David/Children of Light archetypes.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on January 29, 2018, 02:26:56 PM
In the Bible (NASB and many other literal-leaning translations), "The Giant" ("Rapha") is clearly stated to be the father of 5 Philistine Giant brothers:
1) Ishbibenob - 2 Samuel 21:16, 22 2) Saph - 2 Samuel 21:18, 22 3) Goliath - 2 Samuel 21:19, 22 4) "The Twelve-Fingered Giant" - 2 Samuel 21:20, 22
2 Samuel 21:22 states, "These four were born to the giant in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants."
5) Lahmi - 1 Chronicles 20:5, 8
So while it is true that we don't know if Rapha himself was descended from Philistines, would him being the father of 5 Philistines be enough for him to be considered a Philistine? I don't know how the rules for identifiers work...is being the parent of an individual of a civilization enough to make you part of that civilization?
Additionally, using the Bible as our primary source, there is no mention in the text (the only places he is mentioned are 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20) that this particular father was the father of anyone else. Commentaries can greatly vary in terms of interpretation, but it seems clear to me that from what is clearly stated in the Bible, this particular individual is best considered a Philistine because all we really know about him is that he was the father of 5 Philistine brothers who were giants, and was a giant himself. Additional evidence that he is a Philistine is that he was from Gath (2 Samuel 21:22, 1 Chronicles 20:8 ) which was clearly one of the 5 Philistine cities.
And he must have been infamous in the region, as he was simply referred to by the nickname "The Giant" instead of a regular name. Similar to his son, "The Twelve-Fingered Giant". Which hopefully will make for a really awesome and fun card!
I just feel like this can be a really fun character and it would be a shame if he wasn't a Philistine to work cohesively with his sons. And moreover it seems clear to me from the Bible itself that this is what he was.
Just my :2cents:
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 29, 2018, 02:43:14 PM
In the Bible (NASB and many other literal-leaning translations), "The Giant" ("Rapha") is clearly stated to be the father of 5 Philistine Giant brothers:
1) Ishbibenob - 2 Samuel 21:16, 22 2) Saph - 2 Samuel 21:18, 22 3) Goliath - 2 Samuel 21:19, 22 4) "The Twelve-Fingered Giant" - 2 Samuel 21:20, 22
2 Samuel 21:22 states, "These four were born to the giant in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants."
5) Lahmi - 1 Chronicles 20:5, 8
So while it is true that we don't know if Rapha himself was descended from Philistines, would him being the father of 5 Philistines be enough for him to be considered a Philistine? I don't know how the rules for identifiers work...is being the parent of an individual of a civilization enough to make you part of that civilization?
Additionally, using the Bible as our primary source, there is no mention in the text (the only places he is mentioned are 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20) that this particular father was the father of anyone else. Commentaries can greatly vary in terms of interpretation, but it seems clear to me that from what is clearly stated in the Bible, this particular individual is best considered a Philistine because all we really know about him is that he was the father of 5 Philistine brothers who were giants, and was a giant himself. Additional evidence that he is a Philistine is that he was from Gath (2 Samuel 21:22, 1 Chronicles 20:8 ) which was clearly one of the 5 Philistine cities.
And he must have been infamous in the region, as he was simply referred to by the nickname "The Giant" instead of a regular name. Similar to his son, "The Twelve-Fingered Giant". Which hopefully will make for a really awesome and fun card!
I just feel like this can be a really fun character and it would be a shame if he wasn't a Philistine to work cohesively with his sons. And moreover it seems clear to me from the Bible itself that this is what he was.
Just my :2cents:
Jesse makes a very good point. Did we not basically say that the fore-father of these nations would be given that identifier. Esau is the father of the Edomites despite being born of a Hebrew father and mother. Thus he was given the Edomite identifier.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on January 29, 2018, 03:24:23 PM
In the Bible (NASB and many other literal-leaning translations), "The Giant" ("Rapha") is clearly stated to be the father of 5 Philistine Giant brothers:
1) Ishbibenob - 2 Samuel 21:16, 22 2) Saph - 2 Samuel 21:18, 22 3) Goliath - 2 Samuel 21:19, 22 4) "The Twelve-Fingered Giant" - 2 Samuel 21:20, 22
2 Samuel 21:22 states, "These four were born to the giant in Gath, and they fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants."
5) Lahmi - 1 Chronicles 20:5, 8
So while it is true that we don't know if Rapha himself was descended from Philistines, would him being the father of 5 Philistines be enough for him to be considered a Philistine? I don't know how the rules for identifiers work...is being the parent of an individual of a civilization enough to make you part of that civilization?
Additionally, using the Bible as our primary source, there is no mention in the text (the only places he is mentioned are 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20) that this particular father was the father of anyone else. Commentaries can greatly vary in terms of interpretation, but it seems clear to me that from what is clearly stated in the Bible, this particular individual is best considered a Philistine because all we really know about him is that he was the father of 5 Philistine brothers who were giants, and was a giant himself. Additional evidence that he is a Philistine is that he was from Gath (2 Samuel 21:22, 1 Chronicles 20:8 ) which was clearly one of the 5 Philistine cities.
And he must have been infamous in the region, as he was simply referred to by the nickname "The Giant" instead of a regular name. Similar to his son, "The Twelve-Fingered Giant". Which hopefully will make for a really awesome and fun card!
I just feel like this can be a really fun character and it would be a shame if he wasn't a Philistine to work cohesively with his sons. And moreover it seems clear to me from the Bible itself that this is what he was.
Just my :2cents:
Jesse makes a very good point. Did we not basically say that the fore-father of these nations would be given that identifier. Esau is the father of the Edomites despite being born of a Hebrew father and mother. Thus he was given the Edomite identifier.
Jesse's entire argument dismisses the fact that in the original text it could not have been referencing an individual's name the way it was written. "The Giant" was not the name of a man who sired 5 Philistines. And we're not talking about the father of the Philistines. We're talking about the guy from which all the giants descended. He's referred to much earlier in scripture in relation to other giants as well. They were all called the Rephaim after this individual from whom they descended.
We've said King Herod is an Edomite, yet his sons are not although that isn't really relevant here.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Jeremystair on January 29, 2018, 03:52:46 PM
Quote
Jesse's entire argument dismisses the fact that in the original text it could not have been referencing an individual's name the way it was written. "The Giant" was not the name of a man who sired 5 Philistines. And we're not talking about the father of the Philistines. We're talking about the guy from which all the giants descended. He's referred to much earlier in scripture in relation to other giants as well. They were all called the Rephaim after this individual from whom they descended.
We've said King Herod is an Edomite, yet his sons are not although that isn't really relevant here.
We all voted on the card based off Jesse's post here http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/rapha'the-giant'/msg577508/#msg577508 (http://www.cactusforums.com/redemption-card-play/rapha'the-giant'/msg577508/#msg577508) we thought we were voting for the father of the Philistine Giants and the scripture that was given during the nomination.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Ironisaac on January 29, 2018, 03:57:05 PM
Jesse's entire argument dismisses the fact that in the original text it could not have been referencing an individual's name the way it was written. "The Giant" was not the name of a man who sired 5 Philistines. And we're not talking about the father of the Philistines. We're talking about the guy from which all the giants descended. He's referred to much earlier in scripture in relation to other giants as well. They were all called the Rephaim after this individual from whom they descended.
We've said King Herod is an Edomite, yet his sons are not although that isn't really relevant here.
Well, could you not just make him Canaanite, Philistine, and whatever other nationalities his ancestors may have been? It would be consistent with the same logic behind Nimrod or Esau, and everyone gets what they want.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 29, 2018, 03:59:30 PM
I'm guessing this is why there is a general rule against making any characters not explicitly mentioned in scripture with sufficient evidence to suggest even basic identifiers.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on January 29, 2018, 04:00:34 PM
Yes that's what I was going to say - the EC I was submitting was the one mentioned in 2 Samuel 21:15-22/1 Chronicles 20:4-8 (sorry if that wasn't clear). And in that passage, most of the literal translations (including the NASB, which Redemption officially uses) call this man "the giant" and refer to him as a specific individual (the father of the 5 Philistine brothers).
While I would hope that since the translations are based on scholarship we could just use them to trust that there was an individual named "the giant" who was the father of the 5 giant brothers as the 2 passages describe, using Biblehub.com to see the Hebrew word translated "to the giant" after "born" shows just 2 instances in the Bible - 2 Samuel 21:20 and 2 Samuel 21:22, which are both talking about this particular individual.
Also, the fact that this particular individual "the giant" was from Gath seems to point to him being an individual and not representative of generic giants because there were giants outside of Gath, as we know from the rest of the Bible.
Finally, as the 5 Philistine Giants were clearly brothers, could we just make the card based on their father (knowing they had one)? Although again it seems explicitly clear from 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20 that the man nicknamed "the giant" was their father.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Noah on January 29, 2018, 04:09:29 PM
Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how the reasoning for Rapha being a Philistine/Caananite is any different then Nimrod being a Babylonian and an Assyrian. Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: VJ on January 29, 2018, 04:46:04 PM
The KJV and NASB does refer to the 4 giants as the sons of the Giant of Gath. The NIV says they are descendants of Rapha or the Raphaites - an ancient people of large stature.
If the name Rapha was changed to the Giant of Gath, then he would be a Philistine.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on January 29, 2018, 04:51:25 PM
The KJV and NASB does refer to the 4 giants as the sons of the Giant of Gath. The NIV says they are descendants of Rapha or the Raphaites - an ancient people of large stature.
If the name Rapha was changed to the Giant of Gath, then he would be a Philistine.
Yes I like that - "The Giant of Gath"! Would that work?
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 29, 2018, 05:07:57 PM
Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how the reasoning for Rapha being a Philistine/Caananite is any different then Nimrod being a Babylonian and an Assyrian. Please enlighten me.
Because the people of the southern Tigris/Euphrates valley were the ancestors of the Assyrians and Babylonians. They originated in the south but some of these people migrated north and eventually became the Assyrian nation. The people who remained in the south eventually became the Babylonian nation. Nimrod was the ancestral father of these two people groups who were originally one people but eventually became two separate, distinct nations.
In contrast, the Canaanites were in Canaan long before the Philistines arrived. They were there even before Abram arrived. The Philistines, who were a distinct and separate people group from the Canaanite peoples, had no ancestral ties to the Canaanites but came from the north (according to historians). If you look at the biblical references there are several Canaanite nations listed; however, you will see that the Philistines are not included among them. If you look in the book of Joshua and Judges, and after these, there are clear distinctions between the Canaanites and Philistines, including giant peoples.
The issue here is Gabe and maybe some others are saying that Rapha is the father of ALL giants, not just the Philistines but also the Canaanite giants, while some of us are saying that the references about Rapha that Jesse presented originally with this character are specific to the Philistine giants. There is no known link evidencing that Rapha is the father all of giant people, but it seems clear it’s specific to Philistine giants.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 29, 2018, 05:09:00 PM
I plan to do additional research on this when time permits, but that will not be until much later tonight (or tomorrow).
I encourage everyone to keep the discussion going in a productive manner (i.e. presenting further research or raising alternate ideas), thank you for all your participation thus far! 8)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 29, 2018, 05:09:30 PM
The KJV and NASB does refer to the 4 giants as the sons of the Giant of Gath. The NIV says they are descendants of Rapha or the Raphaites - an ancient people of large stature.
If the name Rapha was changed to the Giant of Gath, then he would be a Philistine.
Yes I like that - "The Giant of Gath"! Would that work?
I agree. That name makes this so much more clearer than Giant, father of giants. And it would be specific to the Philistine nation.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on January 29, 2018, 05:27:56 PM
The KJV and NASB does refer to the 4 giants as the sons of the Giant of Gath. The NIV says they are descendants of Rapha or the Raphaites - an ancient people of large stature.
If the name Rapha was changed to the Giant of Gath, then he would be a Philistine.
The issue, however, is that rephaim (the Hebrew plural of “giants”) is mentioned in other, earlier books of the Bible, but the scriptures that are specific to this character are from II Sam and I Chronicles, which reads “harapha,” which means “the giant.” Not once in the Samuel and Chronicles references is the Hebrew word rephaim mentioned; it’s always singular and definitive.
The NIV is a very sloppy bible translation and has many translation issues, so I would not rely upon it overall. As Travis pointed out in his analysis, the NIV leaves out the word “the” from the front of rapha. Which, when translated, would read ”descendants of giant” instead of “descendants of the giant,” which is a significant difference. A while back I read the scripture references from Samuel and Chronicles in just the Hebrew words and it clearly, as consistent with other, more accurate bible translations than the NIV, is worded harapha, or the giant; there were no plurals in the the word rapha. The English translation next to the Hebrew also showed it to be “the giant.”
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: soul seeker on January 29, 2018, 06:36:38 PM
FTR, I've not voted on numbers yet because I'm still undecided. I do want the numbers to have some kind of significance. My submission for consideration...
Father of Giants Identifiers: Giant, Taunt, and Nationality of some type ;) Territory Class Warrior Class Ability: "Search Draw and Reserve Piles for a giant OR Place a Weapon on a Warrior Class character to band all Giants for that turn. Cannot be Negated."
Here is the idea behind my submission: the search reflects his patronage of the giants, and the placement of weapons represents him teaching his sons to be warriors. After all, in that time period sons followed in their fathers' footsteps, learned from them, and joined the "family business." The "OR" represents that he didn't do both at the same time. The "Cannot Be Negated" shows that he was an imposing character.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jbeers285 on January 30, 2018, 07:22:38 AM
Based on 55 votes toughness is already locked at 12. Strength is one vote away from locking a tie at 12.
12/12 looks to be the stats at this point.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on January 30, 2018, 07:52:17 AM
Ability: Search deck or reserve for a Giant. That Giant gains 3/3 and may band to all other Giants while Rapha remains in play. CBN
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 30, 2018, 09:59:57 AM
Based on 55 votes toughness is already locked at 12. Strength is one vote away from locking a tie at 12.
12/12 looks to be the stats at this point.
That does appear to be the case--I will allow the voting to continue since we're also using this time to take ideas for the special ability.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Josh on January 30, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
Given the arguments put forward, most notably by Jesse (who nominated this character with a specific character in mind), I am tweaking my submission to represent the father of Goliath and his brothers, not the ancestor of all giants.
The Giant of Gath 12/12 Black Evil Character WC, TC, Giant, Father of Goliath, Saph, Lahmi, Ishbibenob, and The Twelve-Fingered Giant "While equipped, negate Artifacts. If harmed, you may banish this character instead to search deck and/or Reserve for two sons of The Giant of Gath and add one to battle. Cannot be negated.”
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Kor on January 30, 2018, 12:37:54 PM
WC TC
Protect other giants in territory from opponents. At any time, you may discard Rapha to search deck or reserve for a giant and add a giant to battle.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Master Q on January 30, 2018, 12:55:30 PM
-I agree with arguments put forth by Jesse and others, such that he (Rapha) is considered specifically the father of the 5 giant brothers for the purpose of this card.
-My ability is a tad longer than the guide posted by Gabe. But I went with the Watchman as a guide, and it ended up comparable to that in length (if not shorter). So... yeah. :angel:
-As for the abilities, I'm seeing a lot of searching. A lot. I know it's like a Philistine thing, but I would rather see a more unique ability; something very distinct and new to keep the theme fresh. For my submission, I tried to do this with a new way to interact with the Reserve, rather than just searching. :2cents:
That should probably give it away when it comes time to voting (if mine ends up as one of the options). :P
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 30, 2018, 04:41:34 PM
If the name Rapha was changed to the Giant of Gath, then he would be a Philistine.
+1 I like that a lot!
The Giant of Gath.
12/12 territory class
Each time you play a giant you may search deck, discard pile, or reserve for a philistine evil character or black weapon. When blocking, discard all non-weapon class enhancements.
Edited to fit standards.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Kevinthedude on January 31, 2018, 02:23:33 PM
Territory Class
"Toss enhancements used by players with more than one brigade in battle. Cannot be Interrupted"
It affects both players so you have to build around it if you run it and it counters splash decks and gives players a reason to build mono brigade decks. I originally wanted it to be
"Restrict players with more than one brigade in battle from playing enhancements. CBI"
so it would be more powerful and hurt CoL but I don't know if restricting enhancements may be too extreme and toss fits better thematically since it's a giant.
Also, my :2cents: , I support renaming it The Giant of Gath so that it can be Philistine.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: redemption collector 777 on January 31, 2018, 03:49:39 PM
The Giant of Gath (so it can remain philistine)
+1
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on January 31, 2018, 04:04:53 PM
Since there is still debate on the "Rapha" name and who it refers to, the team will discuss going from Rapha to Giant of Gath in order to ensure this character gets the Philistine identifier.
In fairness to those who voted, would there be any objections to this idea?
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 31, 2018, 04:31:03 PM
None at all :)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jbeers285 on January 31, 2018, 05:01:12 PM
It seems more likely that we will get a character that we can say for sure existed if we go with the Father of Goliath and Bros.
That means I am for "Giant of Gath"
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on January 31, 2018, 05:58:38 PM
I'm good with the "Giant of Gath" idea.
It's unfortunate that he'll lose his association with all the other giants in the game, but at least the Philistine phans will be happy. 8)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on January 31, 2018, 06:02:29 PM
Since there is still debate on the "Rapha" name and who it refers to, the team will discuss going from Rapha to Giant of Gath in order to ensure this character gets the Philistine identifier.
In fairness to those who voted, would there be any objections to this idea?
I do have a serious* objection to this. You had an extremely close vote as to which card should be selected (within two votes until the last day). I am unsure why it is fair to assume that the original votes for Rapha, the Father of Giants would simply transfer to the Giant of Gath.
Speaking for myself, I specifically voted for Rapha, the Father of Giants with the connotation that he was the "father" of giants. (I mentioned--previously in this thread--my hope that Rapha would breath life into the old giant cards.) Had I known the card was going to be changed to the Giant of Gath, I would have voted for another card. It seems a little unfair to discount the intent of my vote.
*Using serious to mean "not humorous."
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Daniel on February 01, 2018, 10:03:30 AM
Also, there isn’t really a debate about the name in this thread, besides poor arguments from Watchman. Let’s not change the name that the board members voted for.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on February 01, 2018, 10:28:27 AM
I do have a serious* objection to this. You had an extremely close vote as to which card should be selected (within two votes until the last day). I am unsure why it is fair to assume that the original votes for Rapha, the Father of Giants would simply transfer to the Giant of Gath.
Speaking for myself, I specifically voted for Rapha, the Father of Giants with the connotation that he was the "father" of giants. (I mentioned--previously in this thread--my hope that Rapha would breath life into the old giant cards.) Had I known the card was going to be changed to the Giant of Gath, I would have voted for another card. It seems a little unfair to discount the intent of my vote.
Also, there isn’t really a debate about the name in this thread, besides poor arguments from Watchman. Let’s not change the name that the board members voted for.
I do not wish to discount anyone's vote, which is why I asked.
I believe it is worth pointing out that the original entry submitted by jesse specifically referred to the father of the 5 giants mentioned in 2 Samuel 21.
Quote from: jesse
Rapha, Father of Giants (the father of Goliath, Ishbibenob, Lahmi, Saph, and The Twelve-Fingered Giant) (2 Samuel 21:18-24)
A lot of other people voted for Rapha believing he was going to be the Philistine father of the giants from Gath, not the long ago ancestor of the Rephaim, and I don't think they can be faulted for that since the passage was specifically given when the submission was made.
I appreciate your understanding and patience as I continue to mull this over, and I welcome additional constructive feedback.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Jeremystair on February 01, 2018, 10:54:33 AM
I'm all for changing his name. I was under the impression that he would be a Philistine when I voted.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on February 01, 2018, 10:58:59 AM
I'm sorry for all this confusion, guys. Just to reiterate, the card that I submitted was specifically for the Philistine father of Goliath and his 4 brothers mentioned in 2 Samuel 21 and 1 Chronicles 20. I never thought of, nor mentioned, this individual being the father of any other giants than the 5 Philistine brothers. And thus I thought it was clear (not just to me, but to everyone - especially based on the thread I had made below explaining more about my submission) that he himself was a Philistine.
I think that given all that has been discussed regarding the name "Rapha", the best name for this individual is "The Giant of Gath" (or just "Giant of Gath")
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on February 01, 2018, 11:10:42 AM
I'm all for changing his name. I was under the impression that he would be a Philistine when I voted.
Thank you for the feedback.
This actually illustrates an important point that we all need to remember: with the number of people who have participated thus far (which has been awesome), we are all going to "assume" things about ANY card that might have been picked. While there are some things that are pretty safe assumptions (in this case that he would be black brigade), other things are not so clear even if people thought they were (such as the Philistine identifier).
In this particular case, some people read "Father of Giants" as the literal father of the 5 giants Jesse mentioned. Others interpreted "Father of Giants" as meaning a past ancestor of those giants and others among the races of giants. Neither position can be faulted or is in the wrong--the use of the name/term "Rapha" is simply one area where Scripture is not explicitly clear to those of us with limited understanding.
In the end, the card is not going to end up exactly like everyone thought--because that is quite literally impossible. Frankly, it's much better if everyone brings different ideas to the table otherwise it would be a pretty boring process, but with that in mind everyone needs to understand that their idea may not necessarily be used.
The community created card process is still new and far from perfect. I have tried my best to be open to suggestions and tweaks to the process without making it seem like I'm just making it up as I go along because that simply isn't a good design process, which is part of why we (as a playtest team) wanted to start doing this--to give everyone a glimpse of how we go through the design process. Granted we don't often use voting, but that's simply the result of having 50+ people involved in the project.
Thanks to everyone for your contributions thus far, and I look forward to making another great community created card. 8)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: EmJayBee83 on February 01, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
Hey Justin,
Just a note that I feel you are doing a really good job navigating the rocky shoals of running a community through an undefined (poorly defined??) process.
Cheers, MJB
P.S. This originally was a draft PM, but wanted to publicly acknowledge The Guardian.
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on February 01, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Thanks Matt--it's definitely a process in which we are learning, but one that is totally worthwhile to struggle through IMO. 8)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Watchman on February 01, 2018, 12:04:29 PM
Thanks Matt--it's definitely a process in which we are learning, but one that is totally worthwhile to struggle through IMO. 8)
Thanks for being willing to be flexible and listening to the input/concerns/debates from the community, Justin. It goes a long way and fosters creative ideas within the community, instead of just shutting down legitimate suggestions/debates, which would have the opposite desired effect of what we want the community created card to be. :thumbup: :thumbup:
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: Gabe on February 01, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
While I've talked to Justin privately, since my fault was done publicly I wanted to also make a public apology to him for this post (http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/the-2018-community-created-card-stats-voting-and-special-ability-suggestions/msg577930/#msg577930).
I thought the matter was pretty cut and dry, but even so, Justin has taken on this project and I should have gone to him to let him determine if a correction was necessary. Instead, I've poked a hornets nest and left him with a mess to deal with.
I'm sorry, Justin. I trust you fully to run this and do it amazingly well. Thanks for overseeing it this year!
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: jesse on February 01, 2018, 12:58:48 PM
Yes, thank you Gabe, Justin, the other elders, and Rob not only for all you do for the game and the community, but also for letting us have a voice. Thanks for this community card project and thank you guys for doing a fantastic job. We are grateful for you!
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on February 01, 2018, 10:27:25 PM
Well the stats are officially 12/12 for our character. 8) Over the weekend I will be going over the submissions for the special ability and doing my best to present 4-5 options by early next week based on the ideas everyone had.
I will also continue to ponder the discussions regarding the Philistine identifier and possible name change. I will post more about that later. :)
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: NathanW on February 01, 2018, 10:39:54 PM
Do you think it would be a good idea at this point to put up the name/identifier to a vote?
Title: Re: The 2018 Community Created Card: Stats voting and Special ability suggestions
Post by: The Guardian on February 01, 2018, 11:15:23 PM