Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: The Guardian on February 05, 2018, 03:16:54 PM
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Hey guys, here is what I did.
Instead of simply copying the suggestions, I tried to take all the ideas and create 5 unique abilities.
For example, many people had an idea that included a search (usually for a Philistine and/or a weapon) so I made an ability that focuses on that (actually 2 since that was a common idea, but one is TC and the other just a regular ability). Other people suggested something with Toss so I made a Toss option ability, a "battle extender" ability, etc.
If you don't see anything from the suggestion you made, I apologize, I wanted to keep the options to 4 or 5.
I am going to give everyone two votes, but you cannot change your votes. If two of the abilities end up being very close in votes, we will consider seeing if they can be integrated together somehow. I will set the initial deadline for 5 days. If the votes come in much more quickly then that, but we have a couple options that are very close, we might do a second round after making some tweaks to the top vote getters. Suffice to say, the final version might look different than any of these, especially once we are able to start playtesting with this new character.
We will allow and encourage discussion on why you voted for the abilities you did. Ready? Set. Go! 8)
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I just want to say that the top option (the most popular at the time i'm writing this) seems super boring. Don't get me wrong, it's really good, but that's probably about the most generic option. And I know my original submission had searching in it, but after thinking about philistines in general, i really don't think they should have someone who can just search out all their best characters. I mean, on one hand, it will give them a good boost, but they are already so boring after being super overplayed the past few years, that they need a boost in a fun way, not just a generic search and FBTN character. :2cents: i personally like the last two options the best, as they introduce something that we have seen very little of, and it's in a fun way that also gives philistines a good boost.
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Of the abilities that have been proposed for this card, I think that Toss and Add to Battle are the two most useful/unique for Philistines.
Toss - Philistines already have 2 of the best/most versatile toss enhancements in the Spears from the starter deck. These cards would see much more play if they had multiple ways of being used within Philistines. Also, being able to toss CBN enhancements lets the preexisting plethora of negate cards already in Black/Philistines see more play and be more consistently useful.
Add to Battle - As I've stated previously, one of Philistine's greatest weaknesses as a theme is Angel of the Lord. Because Angel of the Lord is in every deck, and because Philistines have no reliable way to add 2 characters to battle, Angel of the Lord is almost always a free soul for your opponent. The primary exceptions are if you have a CM or FA to stop a lone hero, or if you use Unknown Nation and it isn't negated, but both of those situations can be easily avoided by CBN banding or Three Woes.
As for the other abilities, Philistines already have a lot of searching and negating, so that seems superfluous, and I'm not a fan of having abilities that trigger on other characters entering battle because it is easy for it to become unbalanced with preexisting abilities and limits/dictates what you can do with characters in the future (for example, Hidden Treasures).
One weakness that Philistines do have is limited access to the reserve. In light of the search abilities already available to Philistines, I would like to see an ability that allows Armor Bearer and Philistine Outpost to target Reserve in addition to deck/discard.
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Haven't voted yet because I'm kinda torn here...
I really wish we could have all the options, unfiltered, like last time. However, as that's probably unrealistic given it's later than when we started voting last year, then I suppose this is the most efficient way to do it. Just missing the wide variety. :(
-I would definitely vote for one in a heartbeat if it was the original version. :angel:
Some of the suggestions were too long, some were too unrealistic.
I was attempting to save us all from the inevitable "Well I wouldn't have voted for that option if I knew that part was going to be taken away..." that would have occurred had I just straight copied and pasted... ::)
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I would vote for the special ability copier or the add to battle one if Philistines already had a FBTN character but they don't and even though it is kinda boring I that giants of all people deserve a FBTN character. As for the searching attached to it, I would prefer it not to have reserve access since black already has a character with reserve access and I think reserve access should be relatively scare but as long as it isn't territory class reserve access I'm not nearly as concerned.
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I would vote for the special ability copier or the add to battle one if Philistines already had a FBTN character but they don't and even though it is kinda boring I that giants of all people deserve a FBTN character. As for the searching attached to it, I would prefer it not to have reserve access since black already has a character with reserve access and I think reserve access should be relatively scare but as long as it isn't territory class reserve access I'm not nearly as concerned.
One of the things we are paying close attention to for the next set (and really all future sets) is to be selective with how many cards get "deck or Reserve" access. Many cards will only be getting one or the other. Other cards will be similar to option 2 in which they can search deck for one thing and Reserve for a different thing (thus creating more strategy in how you construct your Reserve).
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The copy ability scares me since gained abilities are CBN every philistine could gain Deliliah's ability every battle. I don't think every philistine being Gomer is a good thing for the game at all.
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The copy ability scares me since gained abilities are CBN every philistine could gain Deliliah's ability every battle. I don't think every philistine being Gomer is a good thing for the game at all.
I haven't looked at the "gain" entry in the REG lately, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. If it was, I'm still not sure it's that scary...you would have to keep both Rapha and Delilah alive the whole time. I'd probably be more worried about every blocker being able to turn into an Armorbearer.
If it was a problem, then "copy" would likely be a better choice
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I feel like some people voted for the Paul they voted for last year because he was Territory class, and that ended up getting removed. I just like having the opportunity to build off of individual ability ideas and tweaking them as a group. The Watchman I feel is a great example of a card that people voted for that changed from the original submission to the much-better streamlined final version thanks to lots of input. I know playtesting is also a big factor in changing these types of things/deciding on what to do, but I feel like that playtesting part has already somewhat been done, and the original creative part is somewhat lost here. :2cents:
Keep in mind that the listed abilities do not necessarily represent the final version. They are simply more refined starting points than we had last year.
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Gained abilities are not inherently CBN - that's specific to those gained from set-aside, at this point. I think Leading Others Astray (EC) is currently the only card that allows a card to gain an ability that's not a set-aside, so it could be something we overlooked.
Copy might be a better choice, though - gain doesn't currently include a mechanism to activate the gained ability, while copy does.
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1. Not a fan of a 12/12 FBTN character in black brigade, especially with Bringing Fear. Easily recurred and CBP means there's almost no way around it. With searching and Reserve it seems too good.
Bringing Fear was factored into the creation of Rapha's ability. If used, it would negate Rapha's own ability, creating potential negatives for the defender and possible benefits to the rescuer. It's a choice the defender has to make in a tight situation, all the while providing balance to either keeping Rapha's ability active or use BF instead.
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1. Not a fan of a 12/12 FBTN character in black brigade, especially with Bringing Fear. Easily recurred and CBP means there's almost no way around it. With searching and Reserve it seems too good.
Bringing Fear was factored into the creation of Rapha's ability. If used, it would negate Rapha's own ability, creating potential negatives for the defender and possible benefits to the rescuer. It's a choice the defender has to make in a tight situation, all the while providing balance to either keeping Rapha's ability active or use BF instead.
I don't see how Bringing Fear would be a detriment at all. Sure, you potentially lose the card you search for, but a CBN negate good Enhancements and Characters is still FBTN. You aren't balancing anything with a free negate that keeps the battle at the same game state. Scratch that- it doesn't negate EE, so you're far better off opening yourself up for being able to use even more of black's plethora of negates. There's no downside that I can see.
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I voted for the first option which seems really awesome. Reserve access? Yes please! FBTN? YES! And it’s the only one that isn’t TC.
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I voted for the add to battle ability. (The last option)
I personally believe the battle phase is the most fun part of the game and add to battle gives us real battle phases.
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I really like options 1 ,4 and 5.
I wish I could have chosen all three of them but that is not the case.
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I voted for the fourth option. The Philistines really need a better protection card and the ability to use another character's ability in terr is an excellent idea. It would open up some great combo choices.
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I really like the copy special ability option. Besides being a neat ability it fits well into the theme of the character.
As one of the folks who brought up the idea of toss originally, I wish that option #3 was not limited to CBN enhancements (are there any non-CBN enhancements whose SA contains the word "negated"?) . Although it probably needs some limitation for game balance reasons, I was just hoping it could be something different from what we already have.
A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful). If you are running Rapha of Gath you have already bought deeply into a Philistine defense and most probably one featuring giants. Most of the characters/enhancements supporting that theme are generally useful; so it seems to me that you would want pretty much every card supporting that defense in your deck at the start. What specific card or cards do you see keeping in your reserve for this type of defense?
I voted for the first option which seems really awesome. Reserve access? Yes please! FBTN? YES! And it’s the only one that isn’t TC. [emphasis added -- mjb]
I think TC fits this specific card. The sons went to battle, but Scripture doesn't mention the father doing the same.
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I voted for the add to battle ability. (The last option)
I personally believe the battle phase is the most fun part of the game and add to battle gives us real battle phases.
I like giving an add to battle ability to Philistines (I included one in my proposed ability), but not one so easily splashable. This character could be added to the Fire Foxes/Outsiders/Sabbath Breaker/Messenger defense, or a demon defense, or any defense for that matter, and the mere threat of a 12/12 character adding itself to battle at any time, CBN, seems way too useful.
But I guess that is what the playtesting portion is for? Still not sure which one I want to vote for...
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As one of the folks who brought up the idea of toss originally, I wish that option #3 was not limited to CBN enhancements (are there any non-CBN enhancements whose SA contains the word "negated"?) . Although it probably needs some limitation for game balance reasons, I was just hoping it could be something different from what we already have.
As I've mentioned, the ability listed above does not mean that's what it would be exactly. I have found the Toss ability from RoJ Strong Angel to be extremely effective (mostly against Scattered) and it has been completely worth using that version of TSA. That's why I started with that (something I knew was balanced and effective), but could certainly be tweaked along the way if a Toss option was voted for.
A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful). If you are running Rapha of Gath you have already bought deeply into a Philistine defense and most probably one featuring giants. Most of the characters/enhancements supporting that theme are generally useful; so it seems to me that you would want pretty much every card supporting that defense in your deck at the start. What specific card or cards do you see keeping in your reserve for this type of defense?
I haven't voted yet because I'm not sure of my 2nd choice, but option 1 will be my first vote.
I believe that Reserve access will be quite useful as I can put cards like the black Spears (from the starter deck) in the Reserve as back-up battle winners allowing me to put more negates in the main deck. (Every Man's Sword is another nice option for the Reserve). If I'm running a tight, 50 card deck, I likely would not have room for all the giants, so I can stash a few extra in the Reserve for longer, drawn out games.
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I think TC fits this specific card. The sons went to battle, but Scripture doesn't mention the father doing the same.
Scripture doesn't speak about Rapha, nor should it. He's not an important character to the narrative. But we can assume things based on what we know from that time period. Namely that children followed in their parents vocation. Clearly all of this sons were among the top soldiers in the Philistine army. It's a fairly safe assumption that in his day he was also among the top warriors. And while scripture doesn't cover Philistine conquests apart from some that took place against Israel, we can be assured that there were plenty of other conquests that took place. Rapha doesn't strike me as a guy who sat a home avoiding a fight (which is what TC means to me).
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I like #1 but I think it should be a walking bringing fear--> "Negate opposing characters and enhancements". I think that is more a long the lines of what RDT proposed also. There are so many cbp enhancements or ways to gain cbp that this would provide a refreshing counter to all of these.
And yeah, reserve access is really good...getting out every man's sword is nice!
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I like #1 but I think it should be a walking bringing fear--> "Negate opposing characters and enhancements". I think that is more a long the lines of what RDT proposed also. There are so many cbp enhancements or ways to gain cbp that this would provide a refreshing counter to all of these.
And yeah, reserve access is really good...getting out every man's sword is nice!
FTR, the ability was a based on a combination of RDT's suggestion and Watchman's suggestion.
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Overall Rapha and Giants in general really felt like they should have a FBTN character to me. KoT like. I initially wanted a Toss ability when I submitted my version of a special ability as I thought that it better reflects what FBTN was years ago since negate all doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to due to more CBP and CBN stuff. As it sits now the Toss ability suggested doesn't really fit the bill of a FBTN character and the first one is closer to it.
However the ability with TC protection for giants from opponents is a pretty big draw for me. I'm not sure how much that clause would impact type 1 but in type 2 that clause is huge. Philistines don't have a good protect fort but this version of Rapha would give them imo the best evil TC protect card since gates of jerusalem. I also like the potential of the copy ability quite a bit due to the craftiness and reserve usage. Just a really sweet concept.
I'd personally like to see the combination of the protect ability with a FBTNesq ability but, that elimates any reserve usage for him which many people want with him (including myself). All around great input and thoughts from everyone. Great job Justin on making this process as awesome as it's been.
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Thanks Joe--I totally understand your thinking, I want all of these abilities for Rapha ;D
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A question for folks voting in favor of the options that provide reserve access (because I don't see how the reserve part of the suggested SAs would be particularly useful).
I believe that Reserve access will be quite useful ...
Thank you for the explanation. I was thinking of the reserve functioning as a sideboard not as a deck addition, which explains--I think--my befuddlement.
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Wow, a tie between #1 and #4 after 38 people have voted so far! Not sure how we can combine the two abilities, as they're so different (both are awesome though imo)
EDIT: make that an 18-18 tie with 41 voters! So exciting! :laugh:
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Wow nice. At this point it seems like it is going to be either #1 or #4 or maybe both. (unless something all the sudden happens and the other options gets lots of votes all the sudden.)
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BREAKING NEWS, #4 HAS PULLED AHEAD BY 1 VOTE
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
What reason could players possibly have not to want to stack powerful extra abilities on their cards just because those cards are already powerful?
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I voted for it as my second choice mostly due to the protection and with the possibility of cool shenanigans, although I admit I didn't really think too hard about it's interactions, I didn't really care about either of the searches or the wide negates and I didn't think 5 really fit for him specifically. My first choice (of these 5) was the Toss one, mostly because it was the closest to my suggestion, and I was hoping I could push the idea closer to my suggestion.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I concur. It seems it would cause more confusion than anything (two special abilities for one character?). It would make more sense for the ability to be a band ability instead of a copy ability; that way, Philly giants have a way to band to one another, it’s a stronger block having two ECs in battle instead of one, and the ability of the second Philly would be activated once the second EC enters battle anyways. Also, there’s no Reserve search element for Phillies (which would be a nice boost/benefit to that theme), and the ability can be negated at any point.
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It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.
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It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.
That’s the one part of that ability I like since Phillies currently don’t have protection in territory. It’s the rest of the ability that I don’t believe will function well.
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It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.
This is exactly why I voted for it as one of my 2. Based on the current discussion and polls
it looks like 1 and 4 are the front runners and the second ability of 4 is questionable. Although it is a very intriguing and unique ability it would be hard pressed to keep that ability with cards like goliath, saph, king achish, philistine armor bearer, and delilah. I would propose that a hybrid of 1 and 4 that eliminates this ability as it is problematic (still love the idea).
My suggestion would look like.
WC/TC
Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.
This is just my personal opinion of how we could merge the abilities of the current top suggestions. I'm sure not everyone would be completely happy with it but, the more we can make the final product functional and powerful while still staying true to what the community wants the better.
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It's also possible that people are really wanting the protection ability. Philistines are obviously not a chump blocking defense so keeping them on the table (as Evil Characters) is always the challenge.
This is exactly why I voted for it as one of my 2. Based on the current discussion and polls
it looks like 1 and 4 are the front runners and the second ability of 4 is questionable. Although it is a very intriguing and unique ability it would be hard pressed to keep that ability with cards like goliath, saph, king achish, philistine armor bearer, and delilah. I would propose that a hybrid of 1 and 4 that eliminates this ability as it is problematic (still love the idea).
My suggestion would look like.
WC/TC
Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.
This is just my personal opinion of how we could merge the abilities of the current top suggestions. I'm sure not everyone would be completely happy with it but, the more we can make the final product functional and powerful while still staying true to what the community wants the better.
This idea does sound pretty good to me.
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My suggestion would look like.
WC/TC
Protect Giants in your territory from opponents. When Rapha enters battle you may negate characters and enhancements (except philistines and giant slayers) or search deck or reserve for a black weapon or philistine. Cannot be Prevented.
I wasn't really a big fan of option 1, but I could get behind an ability something like this. It forces the player to make a choice (either get the card or use the negate) and it still give protection for Philistines.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I mean I wanted the protect ability. But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time. For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming. Is #4 too good? It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I mean I wanted the protect ability. But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time. For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming. Is #4 too good? It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.
As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.
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I voted for #4 because it was the only option that didn't have free reserve access and wasn't super bland.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I mean I wanted the protect ability. But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time. For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming. Is #4 too good? It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.
As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.
Saph with Horses basically does this now in 2 cards. There are many cbp/cbn negates as well as territory class negaters.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I mean I wanted the protect ability. But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time. For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming. Is #4 too good? It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.
As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.
Well, I play type 2. And like you say, you could set this up at some point in most games. But that is a 3 card combo to play a (not even CBN) battle win each turn. Those already exist. Nergalsharezzar+Swift horses+Babylonian. The Sanhedrin+proud Pharisee+prison. Naaman+chariots. Tower of thebez+woman+stone. There are many more, and my point was that while good it doesn’t totally outclass what is already there.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
I mean I wanted the protect ability. But just because a card is already good doesn’t mean other cards aren’t printed that improve it, that happens all the time. For example, new Jerusalem essentially ‘gained’ new abilities as The Second Coming. Is #4 too good? It is possible, though I don’t think it is so powerful compared to other cards in the game that it isn’t worth testing.
As is the second ability would need changing. With king achish, Rapha, and Saph it's too powerful. Saph just has to block preventing the next enhancement by an opponent naturally then using Achish's ability play an OT evil enhancement that wins the battle. It basically guarantees your opponent has to have a CBP or CBN negate/interrupt just to not lose every battle. It might seem a little difficult to set up type 1 but type 2 it's not at all. The ability would get watered down for sure.
Saph with Horses basically does this now in 2 cards. There are many cbp/cbn negates as well as territory class negaters.
Saph and horses doesn't work as the interrupt on the horses interrupts saph's prevent ability so if you play an enhancement the prevent wont take place until after the enhancement and so any battle winner would cause special initiative to happen before the prevent would be active for him. Unless, i'm just completely misunderstanding how that works anyways. And as for CBP/CBN negates and TC class ones not enough get played and are available themes to justify having a heavily abuseable block where you play first battle winner followed by a prevent for whatever they have to answer it. The protect clause on #4 just makes it harder to deal with too. Not saying it's impossible but overall would likely not make it through testing because of this interaction, goliath, etc. That's all I'm saying. I just provided an example that is pretty rough for most decks to deal with on a regular basis.
Well, I play type 2. And like you say, you could set this up at some point in most games. But that is a 3 card combo to play a (not even CBN) battle win each turn. Those already exist. Nergalsharezzar+Swift horses+Babylonian. The Sanhedrin+proud Pharisee+prison. Naaman+chariots. Tower of thebez+woman+stone. There are many more, and my point was that while good it doesn’t totally outclass what is already there.
It's totally different here. #4 protects the cards to do it unlike the examples you gave, its also more reliable because of Philistine outpost and Philistine armor bearer. You can basically have the block I mentioned from a very early point in the game and be able to abuse it reliably because of Outpost and Armor bearer. The ability to re use this interaction and have it be protected by one of the enablers with it all being easily searchable is too much imo. I doesn't need to be CBN if you can just keep doing it over and over and over and over regardless of whether something dies in battle. So yes imo it totally outclasses what is already there. This is also just a singular interaction available. There are plenty of options to abuse with it. not just the combo I mentioned.
EDIT: I really just want to say that what is OP or bad for the game is always going to be opinionated to some degree. I'm personally of the opinion that the second ability of #4 is probably that. I get where other people are coming from about it but ultimately I don't think the ability will stick in testing.
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ah that's right. Either way I still think that it would bring philistines back into the loop a bit for T2 or defensive heavy decks with more of what they do best as opposed to just evening things out through drawing. And Achish isn't a giant so you can handle him in territory. Goliath+Saph is really good too but then again by themselves they are a bit mediocre. Hard to make philistines more relevant without making them better. I love the potential with diviners and priests too .
One is a great option too and I actually prefer that because of reserve access for weapons.
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It's totally different here. #4 protects the cards to do it unlike the examples you gave, its also more reliable because of Philistine outpost and Philistine armor bearer. You can basically have the block I mentioned from a very early point in the game and be able to abuse it reliably because of Outpost and Armor bearer. The ability to re use this interaction and have it be protected by one of the enablers with it all being easily searchable is too much imo. I doesn't need to be CBN if you can just keep doing it over and over and over and over regardless of whether something dies in battle. So yes imo it totally outclasses what is already there. This is also just a singular interaction available. There are plenty of options to abuse with it. not just the combo I mentioned.
EDIT: I really just want to say that what is OP or bad for the game is always going to be opinionated to some degree. I'm personally of the opinion that the second ability of #4 is probably that. I get where other people are coming from about it but ultimately I don't think the ability will stick in testing.
King Actish isn't actually a giant so he wouldn't be protected. Damascus searches out pharisees and syrians. Tower of thebez protects woman of thebez. The deceiver can search out human characters for any theme. Most themes have various other protections. There are pros and cons to each combination.
That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness. And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.
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That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness. And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.
The protection isn't what concerns me or what I doubt will make it through testing. It's the giving of double abilities to characters that I find unlikely to see print.
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We could just allow Rapha to gain an ability when he enters battle and then give him something a little more tame on top of it such as the protection and something akin to option 1.
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That being said, if #4 turns out to be too strong in testing as is, a change as simple as 'protect other giants in territory from opponents' would almost certainly open up enough of a weakness. And such a change might be necessary with such a powerful and versatile secondary ability.
The protection isn't what concerns me or what I doubt will make it through testing. It's the giving of double abilities to characters that I find unlikely to see print.
That was just an example of a possible change, could tweak the copy also if necessary. And yes, gaining double abilities is very good. But not fundamentally different than equipping a weapon on a character. Or a banding ability bringing another character into battle. In both cases you gain 'double abilities'.
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We could just allow Rapha to gain an ability when he enters battle and then give him something a little more tame on top of it such as the protection and something akin to option 1.
That’s pretty OP and sounds very similar to the current copy ability of option 4.
If the protection ability is added to option 1 perhaps the ability could be like this:
TC/WC
“Protect Philistines in territory from discard abilities. If blocking, you may search deck or Reserve for a Philistine giant or a black weapon. Negate characters (except Philistines and Giant-Slayers) and non-weapon class Enhancements in battle. Cannot be prevented.”
I feel this is a great opportunity for black brigade to have a FBTN character; and who Rapha was is the perfect character, IMO, to have this ability. It would be a shame for this opportunity to be passed up. Hopefully option 1 will prevail, even with a modified ability like I proposed above, which I believe would be the best of both worlds.
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I think protect from opponents is more appropriate as holy grail is probably more of a concern than territory discard in the current meta. So :protect from discard and conversion" can be docked down to "protect from opponents".
If that ability is too long, I would suggest:
“Protect Philistines in territory from discard abilities opponents. If blocking, You may search deck or Reserve for a Philistine giant or a black weapon. When blocking, negate characters (except Philistines and Giant-Slayers) and non-weapon class Enhancements in battle. Cannot be Prevented Negated.”
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
Unless the protection is limited. Emp. Claudius has strong limited protection and is CBP. Why not make Rapha the black brigade’s Claudius? :)
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.
And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.
Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
Right, but that's only relevant when the card itself does something that continually effects the game like option #4. Basically, there is a lot of territory destruction for good that is both more advantageous to use and more accessible than on the evil side. The cbn's function is mostly to cut down on words, but it would work nice in battle too, to make spears work through Moses or something.
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30% vote differential for option #4 over it's nearest competitor, and 51 votes in.
Whoo-hoo!
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I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4. Or playtest with the options on paper cards to see if it'll fly... as they have told us before... the finished product might be tweeted/tested before it's released. Sorry,this was sounding better in my head before I tried posting it here. Someone else can dumb it down
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I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4. Or playtest with the options on paper cards to see if it'll fly... as they have told us before... the finished product might be tweeted/tested before it's released. Sorry,this was sounding better in my head before I tried posting it here. Someone else can dumb it down
I would be okay with FBTN and protection for the special ability without CBP. I think philistines should get a FBTN giant.
Oh and is Lahmi going to get a reprint with a special ability??
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
Glad y'all learned something from Kony...
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Now now...we may have overlooked Ram's Horn during testing ::)... but who uses Ram's Horn these days?!?! :o
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
Glad y'all learned something from Kony...
For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD did.
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For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD Joshua did.
FTFY - JD just used Joshua's decklist with a few slight modifications.
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Just as an FYI, protection and CBN/CBI are very rarely going to be paired together (especially when the protection includes the card itself). 8)
Glad y'all learned something from Kony...
For the record Children of Light started out as CBN on the initlal list. We toned it down after a few decks were built with it, but none of us thought to go as crazy all in as JD did.
Hey hey now, I didn't tighten it like JD but I ran the concept against him with the armors and fruits. . . He just took it and went crazy with it. The crucial miss for me was justice seekers. Tbf though I wasn't . . . Let me see . . . As active as previous years lol
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Indeed. Within the winning Kony a lot of awsome concepts came together (just remembering Eternal Inheritance and Christ's Triumph!)!
My favorite is still SA one - while I am not a fan of FBTN I really like reserve access and it would be great if it could be widened to the Philis (Giants).
And with the combination of the restricted FBTN and the weapons search all the formerly great weapons like Lahmi's Spear, Ish's sword, Foreign sword and so on will very useful again and could be placed within reserve! ;D
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I have a feeling the playtesters might try to combine options 1 and 4.
As #4 is the clear preference of the community (at the moment), I hope they do not do this.
If the SA as written is truly found to be OP in playtesting, I would like to see how the design team rejiggers the SA while keeping true to the wishes of the community.
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If we're talking about combining 1 and 4, I would prefer an ability with the territory protection from 4 and the FBTN from 1 over any of the current voting options.
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Why does nobody seem to like reserve access widened especially to older themes/cards? :scratch:
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.
And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.
Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.
The problem with this is there's still no reason to do most other phils even if this is printed. The good ones just get better because the copy can target them. If you're looking to diversify the characters and abilities phils use this will likely have the opposite effect. I like the idea concept but not how it interacts with phils.
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I'm confused why people are even attracted to #4. Do people not think Goliath is good enough, he needs to gain more abilities? Is Saph not good enough? I have my doubts that the ability will even make it through testing since it boosts Goliath considerably and he's already one of the best ECs in the game.
The problem with the giants is not their abilities. It's the other philistines. You almost never want to block with Philistine Diviners, for example, as it's not nearly as good as blocking with Saph. This will hopefully get them some more use.
And for the giants other than Saph or Goliath, Ishbibinob is never played, Lahmi has no ability (the black one), and Twelve fingered giant is almost always a last resort. As-is, Goliath is pretty situationally amazing currently, but not always so. More often than not he ends up as fodder.
Also, the copy is not CB-anything, so if you negate it, then it's fine. Shouldn't be too difficult.
The problem with this is there's still no reason to do most other phils even if this is printed. The good ones just get better because the copy can target them. If you're looking to diversify the characters and abilities phils use this will likely have the opposite effect. I like the idea concept but not how it interacts with phils.
What if the copy SA was actually a copy SA instead of a gain? Character X loses his/her SA and gains the SA of an evil Philistine character? That gives a reason to play almost the full panoply of Philistine characters, and eliminates all (most?) of Gabe's concerns about Goliath.
I'm not saying this is the bestest solution, but you know the SA is going to get tweaked in play testing. Something like the above is just an example of how you can tweak the ability but keep it consistent with the original spirit.
Why does nobody seem to like reserve access widened especially to older themes/cards? :scratch:
I think it would be fun to give reserve access as a taunt ability.
Taunt: If not accepted search Reserve for a giant or a weapon.
Gives a reason to move a TC character into battle, and an incentive for the opponent to fight him.
#BringBackTheTaunt
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MJB, it seems like your suggesting an option that could just turn into character you want into Goliath. So instead of having one Goliath in your deck that can be brought back several times, you get an entire deck full of Goliath? I don't see how that's a good idea...
Taunt abilities are only used on characters that are noted to have taunted others in scripture. As you've pointed out, we know nothing of this Rapha. "He probably never fought in a battle", much less taunted anyone. ;)
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MJB, it seems like your suggesting an option that could just turn into character you want into Goliath. So instead of having one Goliath in your deck that can be brought back several times, you get an entire deck full of Goliath? I don't see how that's a good idea...
Sure, if your entire deck is a lone Philistine giant who is blocking. I thought we were all on the same page that I was talking about modifying Option #4, not crating something from scratch...
So a first pass would be...
WC/TC: Protect giants in territory from opponents. If your lone Philistine giant blocks, it may copy the special ability of an evil Philistine in your territory until the end of battle.
It seems to me it would be more interesting to try and tweak a new special ability in this kind of way than to simply chuck the whole idea at the start because "We can never balance that SA."
Taunt abilities are only used on characters that are noted to have taunted others in scripture. As you've pointed out, we know nothing of this Rapha. "He probably never fought in a battle", much less taunted anyone. ;)
Yeah, but as noted before children tend to follow in their father's footsteps and at least 40% of Rapha's boys were noted taunters (and we have no evidence either way about the other three).
#BringBackTheTaunt
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Much like the debate over the card title, I am certain there is a good way forward that we can find.
While it appears option 4 will come out on top, there is also significant support for option #1 as well as support for a hybrid of the two abilities. I will let the voting play out to the deadline and will then evaluate the options and feedback. I do appreciate all the feedback thus far and welcome additional thoughts people may want to share.
As Gabe and others have noted, there are certainly some concerns with the power level of a copy ability. At first glance, it seems really fun and unique, but not only do we need to consider it's potential right now, we also have to consider how it could effect design space in the future. We have been purposefully selective in creating copy abilities because of their potential for abuse.
For those in favor of the copy ability, please know that I am not saying that there's no chance a copy ability would pass testing--only that it would require more extensive testing because it would be "new" in terms of the potential interactions. Things like Reserve access and FBTN have already been "tested" in a sense so we know what kind of potential those have. Are they "boring"? In a sense, perhaps. However, can they be incredibly useful for a theme to have them? Absolutely.
Thank you all again for your participation and keep an eye out on Monday for "next step" announcements.
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Whatever the ability that we go with, my hope is that it will encourage the use of a more full-fledged Philistine defense instead of primarily being another tool for splash or chump-block defenses
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Just a friendly question for those clamoring for a FBTN ability on Rapha... Have you ever built a Philistine defense with Saph in it and tried to block every rescue attempt with him?
;)
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It's a little different in that Saph doesn't stop all your own battle winners. (Granted 2 of the philistine battle winners are weapons.)
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Just a friendly question for those clamoring for a FBTN ability on Rapha... Have you ever built a Philistine defense with Saph in it and tried to block every rescue attempt with him?
;)
When you're up against clay, preventing a single battle winner doesn't do a whole lot.
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When you're up against clay, preventing a single battle winner doesn't do a whole lot.
And when every brigade has a FBTN character, every character that isn't CB-something threatens to be a dead card every time you activate its ability.
If Rapha gets a FBTN ability, I'd prefer it to negate cards of */X or less, where X is giants, Philistines, something like that. Anything that prevents it from being another KoT.
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When you're up against clay, preventing a single battle winner doesn't do a whole lot.
And when every brigade has a FBTN character, every character that isn't CB-something threatens to be a dead card every time you activate its ability.
If Rapha gets a FBTN ability, I'd prefer it to negate cards of */X or less, where X is giants, Philistines, something like that. Anything that prevents it from being another KoT.
When you print cards that create an offense where the only consistent counter is FBTN ECs, you have to print an extra FBTN EC or two if you want defense diversity.
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#4 and #1 are in the lead.
I'm so happy...my earlier post received a -1...my first ever negative post!
God bless you
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When you print cards that create an offense where the only consistent counter is FBTN ECs, you have to print an extra FBTN EC or two if you want defense diversity.
So we have to create more of the same things to make defense more diverse? ;)
That may be true, but I still think that characters that simply make abilities on cards not work at all is unhealthy for the game in the long-run. Everything eventually negates, or is CB-something, or both.
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When you print cards that create an offense where the only consistent counter is FBTN ECs, you have to print an extra FBTN EC or two if you want defense diversity.
So we have to create more of the same things to make defense more diverse? ;)
That may be true, but I still think that characters that simply make abilities on cards not work at all is unhealthy for the game in the long-run. Everything eventually negates, or is CB-something, or both.
Part of that is due to the current average power level and the relatively limited design space Redemption has compared to some other card games.
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I mean does anyone seriously believe that people will ever use a mono defense that isn't fast (barring a top-down rule)? Splash is a part of the game right now. FBTN Rapha just gives you more incentive towards playing a giant splash like Kot attracts all his demon and magician friends. #4 is probably going to be a marginalized type 1 card and great for type 2.
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I mean does anyone seriously believe that people will ever use a mono defense that isn't fast (barring a top-down rule)?
That's a great question. I think of RDT's 2015 nats-winning D and while it was a splash D, it wasn't a speedy one. It encourages me that as long as there's a diversity of quality options within a civilization/theme or brigade, there will be the possibility for making a strong D of it- even if it isn't one of the fastest. As RDT's deck illustrated, how a defense works with the offense is what's most important.
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That deck was a speed deck built around Greeks, forced draw, site lock and abom. He had me locked and beat in about 8-12 minutes in the national finals.
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That deck was a speed deck built around Greeks, forced draw, site lock and abom. He had me locked and beat in about 8-12 minutes in the national finals.
Well what did you expect thinking you could win with a mono-silver deck?
;)
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That deck was a speed deck built around Greeks, forced draw, site lock and abom. He had me locked and beat in about 8-12 minutes in the national finals.
Well what did you expect thinking you could win with a mono-silver deck?
;)
Mono-silver and straight demons lol before RoJ was released #ballsohard
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Well what did you expect thinking you could win with a mono-silver deck?
Haha oh yeah it's impossible to win with mono-silver (pre-RoJ of course!)...Why don't you just add in some random never-used Warriors GE while you're at it? ::)
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That deck was a speed deck built around Greeks, forced draw, site lock and abom. He had me locked and beat in about 8-12 minutes in the national finals.
Ah I thought it was a "turtle" deck, not a speed deck. But I see what you mean, as he was trying to get his oppenent to deck out asap
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Well what did you expect thinking you could win with a mono-silver deck?
Haha oh yeah it's impossible to win with mono-silver (pre-RoJ of course!)...Why don't you just add in some random never-used Warriors GE while you're at it? ::)
Well played sir...well played. 8)