Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: megamanlan on March 05, 2011, 11:16:19 PM
-
Saul/Paul
7/9 Gray Evil Character / 10/10 Multi-Color Hero
-Pharisee, Jew, Roman, Apostle-
[Saul] May Discard the top card of your Deck to Discard 1 NT Human Hero in territory. If this Son of God is played card is converted, Convert this card to Paul.
[Paul] May band to an NT Hero. NT Enhancements cannot be Negated. This Card is Protected from Capture (except by a Roman) or Conversion.
What do u guys think?
-
Paul should be protected from capture (except by a Roman) and conversion.
-
I agree that's a better way to word it.
-
Saul is way Op'd, and I think the Letters of Paul part could get confusing. I think you should change it to N.T. enhancements cannot be negated and may band to a N.T. hero.
-
Saul is way Op'd, and I think the Letters of Paul part could get confusing. I think you should change it to N.T. enhancements cannot be negated and may band to a N.T. hero.
I agree. There should be some way to negate Saul's ability without too high a cost; otherwise max card decks could abuse this to no end. Maybe something like, "Can discard top card of deck to discard NT Human Hero in Territory. Opponent may reveal two good enhancements (or one good dominant) to negate this.
-
One problem. That would never fit on a card. Besides, it's territory, there are too many cards that protect territory anyway. And only Angels can stop themselves from being discarded from the deck so most people would also be wary about when to use it. But Maybe I should have it set to a reveal ability, like 'Reveal the top Card of your Deck, If it is Evil, Discard a NT Hero in territory'
-
Saul/Paul is popular enough as he is. I don't think he needs a reprint, especially not one that is so similar to his current version. I like the evil part, but I would make the good part a little more original.
-
I cant think of anything else for Paul. But he does need a reprint because the last one is utterly useless. Besides the first one is only good if it's converted, other than that, It's a waste in a deck. It's like running the original Hard-hearted Religious Leaders in ur deck, only ur Opponent automatically gets the first enhancement.
-
But he does need a reprint because the last one is utterly useless.
A multicolor prophet whose enhancements are CBN is absolutely not useless. And since he is both a Pharisee and a Roman, he has his uses as an EC as well. Besides, you can't call a card useless that people already use.
-
No one in their right mind in my area plays it ever. Because it just dies before you can play anything who wants to play a character that dies before it can play anything? Besides there is enough good pharisee's to play anyway.
-
And no one in southern Mankayane, Swaziland plays Son of God. That needs to be reprinted too. Terribly UP'd atm.
-
No one in their right mind in my area plays it ever. Because it just dies before you can play anything who wants to play a character that dies before it can play anything? Besides there is enough good pharisee's to play anyway.
Guess I'm crazy cuz I have him in both T1 and T2 decks at the moment... ::)
Granted I won't disagree that he has very little use as an EC.
-
Thats my point, Saul is useless, because it doesn't do anything except give ur Opponent first Enhancement. It's literally only good if played against TSA/ Captain only...
-
In a FBTN situation, he's pretty handy. Though, if you're using Phars/Sadds, I won't be making a RA with Capitan.
-
That's the thing. It's useless unless ur in that situation, beyond that it's useless, thats why I think it would be better if they reprint it, and make it good.
-
Also, what has been mentioned of Saul/Paul that he is not a Roman, he was a citizen of Rome, but he was a Jew. If he wasnt, then he couldn't have been in the Sanhedrin.
-
You don't use the card for its evil side though. You use it for it's incredibly powerful good side. The reason the evil side is not that powerful is to keep it balanced. The card was designed as one that is really good, but needs some setting up before you can use it. It's an investment.
And in case I didn't mention this before, the determining factor for whether or not a card needs a reprint is not how powerful you think it is, but rather how frequently used it is (or at least that's how it should be IMO, although Disciples Gabriel sort of breaks the rule). I might think Archelaus is not that powerful, but he is still used in most of the Herod decks I see, so it wouldn't make a big difference to reprint him. You might as well use the card material to print something that actually helps a theme.
-
That's the thing, He's about as used as Abram/Abraham is. And besides, if there going to make them actually good then they should, Paul isn't that great anymore eather. I mean the Cannot be Poisioned is a waste because it's not supported by scripture and Paul should be better than just a CBN anyway. Saul is pointless and Paul isn't that good eather because u'd have to convert it, which wastes a Convert Enhancement and a battle ender.
-
That's the thing, He's about as used as Abram/Abraham is.
I don't know what group you're playing with, but try a few games online. I've played against at least two decks since Disciples came out that have used him effectively, and I don't even play that much.
-
I don't think it's a "waste" of Holy Grail. Much less the potential for Hidden Treasures.
-
Most people don't run Holy Grail anymore, because people don't have room anymore.
Besides, Saul/Paul still isn't that good, It could be a lot better, besides the cards in Disciples are now requiring better cards than a lot of the older ones, and if Peter and Andrew come out to finish it, Pharisees/Sadusees need Good EC's that are as useful as the original cards.
-
Most people don't run Holy Grail anymore, because people don't have room anymore.
Agreed. It isn't like Holy Grail is one of the best artifacts that I see in most top decks.
Besides, Saul/Paul still isn't that good,
A multi color hero, despite numbers or abilities, is amazing. Doubly so if you can play off of HT and enhancements CBN.
It could be a lot better, besides the cards in Disciples are now requiring better cards than a lot of the older ones, and if Peter and Andrew come out to finish it, Pharisees/Sadusees need Good EC's that are as useful as the original cards.
Every card in the game could be a lot better. That doesn't mean it should be reprinted. Pharisees also have some of the best evil characters in the game in PP and ET. They don't need more.
-
Pharisees fall apart against Angels and other setups as well. Besides, I have all the Pharisee cards an none of them are amazing. Same w/ Saddusees.
And also Paul's effect isn't Biblically accurate. The remake I'm suggesting makes it much more accurate and makes it that the Pharisees don't have one of the biggest and most useless EC in the game. And besides I would target Saul/Paul for Discard after I beat the guy in battle. And no opponent would ever convert Saul to Paul which means u have to.
-
Entrapping Pharisees is good, but only against Humans and they are useless against disciples and Angels and scence that's practically all that's out there, they don't work good... AT ALL!
Not to mention that the 'ninja' Abilites of the Pharisees and Saggusees make Saul even more useless because all cards that I've seen so far except TSA still allows banding. And he was known for killing Christians not just standing up to them. And lastly the 'Cannot be Poisoned' is not biblical because first of his mentioning of the 'Thorn in the Flesh' which if it was made into a card it would be a disease, and then Paul could not be afflicted with it? That's a counterdiction. Besides why should Paul be able to be converted to an EC? That makes less sense. Not to mention that Jesus appeared to Saul and that converted him. So his effect should have something to do with that as well. An besides why shouldn't Pharisees and Sagusees be able to take out angels and disciples as well?
From now on I do not wish to argue why there should be a reprint, because it just wastes the thread, please only discuss what u actually think of the card I'm suggesting, and please make suggestions on how I can make it better, not discussing the old version which some people dislike. Thank you.
-
I've always thought of the "thorn in the flesh" as a mother in law.
-
But he wasnt married... but thats funny.
-
But he wasnt married... but thats funny.
Paul probably was married, actually. You couldn't have been a Pharisee and single in that culture.
-
The only thing I would change about Saul is to make him 10/11 instead of 11/10 so he's more useful in FBTN scenarios.
Don't forget that Paul enjoys the effects of Obadiah's Caves and Herod's Temple making him fairly invincible since most of the CBN evil cards are discard or capture.
Also of note, I built a T2 offense around Paul recently and Gabe said it was one of the best offenses he's ever played against.
And no I'm not telling what it was... :P
-
...okay... I'm just trying to make Saul the most useless EC ever. They might as well just put his effect as 'Opponent may play the First Enhancement." literally. Thats why I lower his numbers by quite a bit, and I stopped Herod's Temple before, just toss Peter's Curse on it.
-
Paul's SA is biblically accurate. Acts 28:1-6.
-
How can you be protect from capture or conversion? I think you mean and. :-*
-
If they are doing both you get captured or converted. Holder's choice.
-
If you manage to do both simultaneously, props.
-
Couldn't you just play a convert and a capture, have them negated by a FBTN, and then negate that on an unnegatable enhancement character?
-
And is what I mean't but he can't be converted at all. He can be Captured by a Roman though. And it doesn't make sense that the guy that gave more than half of the New Testament and refuted every false teaching of the day and this time means he couldn't be converted. And the Jews and others could never capture Paul only the Romans ever did.
-
Paul's SA is biblically accurate. Acts 28:1-6.
But u forget the 'Thorn of the Flesh' That Paul mentions in 1 Cor. 12:7 which would be a disease, and he was blind just after he was converted which also would be a disease/poison card. Not to mention that was one time that God used to disprove their false god. Which means that it was a special occasion when that didn't happen. I know there's other ones, I just can't remember them right now and going through all of Paul's Letters isn't a good idea when I have other things to do right now.
-
It's not a poision. It's a disease which is different by both Redemption and real life.
-
Well, as far as I know, Poisons and Diseases are treated exactly the same.
-
Well, as far as I know, Poisons and Diseases are treated exactly the same.
This is gonna sound pyscho but I'm gonna do it anyway. Someone puts aresnic in your food. Or you come down with the flu. It's not the same. Both hurt you but 1 isn't on purpose.
-
Technically speaking, diseases can be given on purpose, too.
-
Yes! Those evil pigs, trying to give us all flu....
-
okay... I'm just saying that in my rulebook Poisons and Dieases are both treated like a poison as far as I know. And besides that would be better off as an enhancement anyway.
-
I like Saul/Paul the way he is.
-
Im okay w/ that, Im just saying they could make him a lot better because for the most part he cant work well in a Pharisee Deck.
-
For the 100,000th time he isn't supposed to be used as a EC.
-
For the 100,000th time he isn't supposed to be used as a EC.
Then why is he an EC?
-
He's meant to be HG'd into a hero as soon as possible. The EC should never block it's too risky. He may be an EC but if he blocks he's a big fat character with a good many identifiers.
-
He's meant to be HG'd into a hero as soon as possible. The EC should never block it's too risky. He may be an EC but if he blocks he's a big fat character with a good many identifiers.
He should never block if you want to use him as a hero. If you want to use him as an EC, he should block. They wouldn't make an EC for the sole purpose of being a hero (excluding Proud Pharisee).
-
Any WC Philistine, also.
-
Actually, it'd be better to do it on any philistine, since you don't want to shuffle the best card in the game in, and it'd follow the philly.
-
That's the point! He's not easy to convert! My new version makes it much easier to convert and makes him very useful and much more competitive.
-
The only thing I would change about Saul is to make him 10/11 instead of 11/10 so he's more useful in FBTN scenarios.
Don't forget that Paul enjoys the effects of Obadiah's Caves and Herod's Temple making him fairly invincible since most of the CBN evil cards are discard or capture.
Also of note, I built a T2 offense around Paul recently and Gabe said it was one of the best offenses he's ever played against.
And no I'm not telling what it was... :P
I love using Paul in my "One of Paul's identifiers" deck, especially in T1 multi or T1 Teams. The SoFla playgroup has found many ways to utilize Saul/Paul effectively as both good and evil. Here's the box: [] but don't open it ;)
-C_S
-
Well, he should actually work as a Pharisee, because thats what he is
-
Well, he should actually work as a Pharisee, because thats what he is
He does... but he also works as a Roman. I personally think he works quite well within a Prophets/Roman deck. Sure, my deck may not be a "Win almost every game" deck, but Saul/Paul can be useful in either form depending on what your goal [and theme(s)] is/are with your deck.
**EDIT: Btw, your reprint idea is quite intriguing even though I like S/P the way he is**
-C_S
-
Thanks!
Just to note: I am just trying to make a more fun S/P not replace the first, unless u just run the first as an EC (like I do) His EC side is a waste unless u pull a FBTN card, because no opponent would purposely convert Saul. And besides I make it easier to turn him to Paul.
Also why is he defined as a Roman again? Because I thought he was a Jew, and didnt he have to be a Jew to be a Pharisee?
-
He inherited it from his father.
-
Short answer: He was a Roman Jew (or a Jewish Roman).
-
Oh... Okay....
-
That's the point! He's not easy to convert! My new version makes it much easier to convert and makes him very useful and much more competitive.
Using holy grail isn't hard at all. And he is strong enough as is.
-
Not everyone uses Holy Grail! And not everyone can afford to have one! And why not have a good version of Saul that's better for more than FBTN? Yea know King of Tyre is made to be good for something.
-
Not everyone uses Holy Grail! And not everyone can afford to have one! And why not have a good version of Saul that's better for more than FBTN? Yea know King of Tyre is made to be good for something.
10/10 multi isn't good enough? I don't think Cactus should reprint cards just so they're easier to use for new players(*)
*(unless it's wording change only, same effect.)
-
It wouldn't just be for new players, it would also be for players that don't spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on really good cards. Besides no one that I've played has ever been able to convert him. And Cactus won't make a Teritory Class Convert Card. And no one wants to play Healing of Naaman eather. Paul is useless if u can't convert him to Paul.
-
It wouldn't just be for new players, it would also be for players that don't spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on really good cards. Besides no one that I've played has ever been able to convert him. And Cactus won't make a Teritory Class Convert Card. And no one wants to play Healing of Naaman eather. Paul is useless if u can't convert him to Paul.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FMeeting%2520the%2520Messiah%2520%28TP%29.gif&hash=9f7973e83662b9cab17d7c7dd689f5eed41cfed8)
-
I've always thought of the "thorn in the flesh" as a mother in law.
Random fact, "mother in law" anagrams to "woman hitler". I actually got this in a question at a school quizzing tournament.
-
Sorry for the double post, but wanted to add my two cents...
Don't forget megamanlan, that by merely placing Saul into play, you will immediately get into your opponent's head, because he has the potential to be so devastating once converted. Your opponent has no idea whether Saul is a decoy, a plain vanilla 11/10 Pharisee/Roman, or whether you plan on converting him later. He gets the protection of CP, HPP, and Herod's Temple, can use all your gray enhancements specific to Romans and Pharisees, can block FBTN heroes better than most Pharisees, can be used to play RDJ with Pharisees/Proud Pharisee, etc. But I think the effect he could have on how your opponent plays would end up being his most valuable quality.
-
It wouldn't just be for new players, it would also be for players that don't spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on really good cards. Besides no one that I've played has ever been able to convert him. And Cactus won't make a Teritory Class Convert Card. And no one wants to play Healing of Naaman eather. Paul is useless if u can't convert him to Paul.
You've played some money-strapped players. Meeting the messiah is all you need. and it's TEXP. And Holy grail is a $5 card BTW. Not a $100 card.
-
I've always thought of the "thorn in the flesh" as a mother in law.
Random fact, "mother in law" anagrams to "woman hitler". I actually got this in a question at a school quizzing tournament.
For the record, my mother-in-law is a wonderful Christian woman who I have had no problems with. The world will feed you any lie (aka stereotype) you are willing to listen to. I might also add that my wife is not a ball and chain, and my kids are three of God's greatest blessings.
Live happy.... it's more fun that way. ;D
-
I figure I'll end up in the same situation, so I'll cram in the jokes while I can.
-
Whatever. Still most people will not buy a Redemption Card for $5 if their strapped on money, they'll be reluctant on even buying cards for $1 let alone $5!
And besides it would be more fun having a good useful Saul that has an effect.
-
I've always thought of the "thorn in the flesh" as a mother in law.
Random fact, "mother in law" anagrams to "woman hitler". I actually got this in a question at a school quizzing tournament.
For the record, my mother-in-law is a wonderful Christian woman who I have had no problems with. The world will feed you any lie (aka stereotype) you are willing to listen to. I might also add that my wife is not a ball and chain, and my kids are three of God's greatest blessings.
Live happy.... it's more fun that way. ;D
I love my mother-in-law as well. My whole team and I were pretty much in disbelief when they revealed the answer to the question (no one got it right).
-
That's why I like the Cactus version of board/family games better. ;)
-
Any old convert enhancement will work... I'm sure there's a CBN floating around as well.
haha, fun times
-C_S
-
I'd like one that converts when anyone plays SoG, and Cannot be Converted, because another question, If Paul is converted to an EC then does he go back to Saul? And I'd call it really strange if the person that gave us most of our Doctrine can go back to bad.
-
He becomes the EC Paul, a 10/10 no SA in whatever brigade he was converted to.
-
Actually Converted EC's and Heroes keep their effects, it's just that most of them are useless, Ex. Nebuchadnezzar, His effect would still work if he was a Hero and u had a card that would make him not have a Daniel Reference.
Proud Pharisee would be good eather way, because It doesn't specify that it needs any Evil Cards at all.
Anyway, Paul would not be able to be poisened and all Enhancements are still CBN if that's true.
-
Hero -> EC, SA is lost
EC -> Hero, SA is kept, unless it harms a hero, or allows you to play an evil enhancement.
-
I don't see that in my rulebook.
-
Ask any elder, post it on the Ruling Questions board. That's how it's played.
-
I don't see that in my rulebook.
It's in the REG. The rulebook is not the sole source of information for Redemption. In fact, the rulebook is mostly designed for new players which is why it is included in the starter decks. Most experienced players consult the REG or the boards for the complexities of the game.
-
That's not what I've heard from others... But then again, most people don't convert Heroes...
-
That's not what I've heard from others...
Those "others" are wrong. The REG has been very clear about converted heroes for quite some time. The rules for converted ECS needed to be reworked a couple years ago, but it has not changed since.
From the REG:
Instant Special Abilities > Convert > Default Conditions
• If a Hero is converted to an Evil Character, it’s special ability does not work. If that Evil Character is later converted back to a Hero, it’s special ability works again.
• If an Evil Character is converted to a Hero, it’s special ability works as long as it does not harm Heroes (e.g., the special ability of Otho does not work as a Hero because it would be discarding himself, a Hero). Game rules are still operative (e.g., Heroes may not use evil enhancements or band to Evil Characters).
-
Actually that's even a little out of date. The SA on a Converted EC will work in every case except when it targets (not harms) a Hero. Since a Hero can never harm a Hero, that definition had to be updated.
-
Actually that's even a little out of date. The SA on a Converted EC will work in every case except when it targets (not harms) a Hero. Since a Hero can never harm a Hero, that definition had to be updated.
That's what I meant in my first sentence, but thanks for the clarity. ;D
-
Okay.