Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Gabe on October 18, 2016, 02:11:48 PM
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The votes are in and our Hero "Paul" will be in the clay and green brigades!
This week we're going to vote on the special ability! Suggestions were sent to me via private message last week. Please use the corresponding number below when casting your vote.
***Next week we will vote on the scripture reference. Please post your suggestion below. If you given a suggestion in the past it has not been tracked. In order to be counted it must be posted below.
Your post should look something like this:
John 3:16 - (include NASB translation if desired)
Explanation of why I think this verse should be used.
Now for the special abilities!
Option #1
Territory class
Negate neutral cards. Protect NT lost souls from evil cards. If Paul is banded into battle you may draw two cards. Cannot be negated.
Option #2
Missionary, Prophet
You may search deck or discard pile for up to two clay heroes with the same church to play a convert enhancement. negate evil band abilities. Paul may use any enhancements that converts an evil character. cannot be negated.
Option #3
Territory class
Whenever a NT hero enters battle, search deck for an NT enhancement. Enhancements used by Paul cannot be negated.
Option #4
Ignore Magicians. May band to Barnabas. Enhancements used by Paul cannot be negated.
Option #5
Missionary, Prophet
When blocked, you may play a good Enhancement with Paul's name in the title or scripture verse, search discard pile for one of those cards, or draw 2 if Silas or Timothy is in play. Cannot negated.
Option #6
Missionary, Prophet
Paul has Site Access. N.T. Enhancements used by Paul gain Cannot Be Negated. Negate all N.T. Evil enhancements. Cannot be negated.
Option #7
Territory class
Once each round, you may heal a missionary, apostle, or a hero with a church identifier. On entering battle, may draw a card for each church present in your territory (limit 3). While in battle, enhancements with references written or used by Paul cannot be negated.
Option #8
Territory class
Identifier: May hold one artifact that involves Paul
May use any good N.T. enhancement. Protected from demons and evil convert abilities. If targeted for discard or capture, convert up to two of your opponent's evil characters and take them to territory. Cannot be negated.
Option #9
Missionary, Prophet, Apostle
You may draw 2 cards. Negate evil characters and evil enhancements. Cannot be negated.
Option #10
Once per game, when you have initiative, you may interrupt the battle and play a N.T. good Dominant. Cards with "Paul" in the title cannot be interrupted.
What is this about? (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/new-card-ideas/player-created-card/)
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I'm kinda disappointed that neither of my suggestions made either final voting list. I thought my Paul one was rather unique. :'(
Some great ideas on both lists, though! :)
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I thought all SA submissions were going to be voting options.
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I thought I had all suggestions listed. I apologize if I missed anyones. I'll look back through my PM's.
*edit*
A new option was added because I overlooked a submission when I was creating the poll.
I'd also like to note that these abilities are posted exactly as submitted. Not tweaking or correcting to wording or power levels. That can/will happen later.
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i really like option 6 but i mean come on guys we have 6/8 top cut throne to keep up with can we at least add a draw 2 or something to it?
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i really like option 6 but i mean come on guys we have 6/8 top cut throne to keep up with can we at least add a draw 2 or something to it?
The other two of those eight that did not use Throne got 1st and 3rd (you should know), so is it really that much of a problem? ::)
With the new set, I'd be shocked if they didn't include something new that curbs the power of those decks. Throne's popular now, but it won't be forever (see TGT). The solution to everything is not to slap draw 2 on it without restriction (see AutO). That would make for a pretty boring card, I think.
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haha yeah i agree i am kind of kidding but kind of serious :p
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I also don't agree with the idea that every hero needs draw added onto it because Throne is a thing. Instead I hope to see in the future more draw counters or reasons not to draw.
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don't get me wrong, playing throne is like watching an nba game where playing a slow deck is typically like trying to get up stairs in a wheel chair..
it's not a bad thing to draw. drawing is good for the game, searching, revealing, getting to strategies is good for the game!
but yeah i mean with confusion being a thing.. getting to son of god is kind of important ;)
if half of these people voting played on lackey and root *cough which i'm number 1 undefeated in again this month tooting my own horn hope you down vote me for it* you would see that drawing does matter
GUYS
SPEED DECKS MATTER
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/72516613.jpg)
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No one is saying speed isn't strong. We're saying it is unhealthy for the game and making every deck equally unhealthy doesn't fix the problem. Speed and speed decks have their place in every card game, but one of the more unique aspects of Redemption compared to popular card games is cards have no cost to play, meaning you can generally play cards as fast as you can draw them. This combined with the fact that the drawing cards themselves don't have a cost to use makes drawing in Redemption one of if not the most powerful mechanics and should be very very very sparing added to new cards, especially spammable ones like heros.
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i mean come on guys wasn't that memeable enough for more than only 2 downvotes?? :laugh:
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#6 is currently winning but there's just something about it that feels, idk, ordinary to me. It has good abilities but just doesn't say "I am Paul and I am unique and impactful" like I feel a reprinted Paul's ability should. I feel similarly about 1, 2, 3, 7, and 9. None are bad at all, just for me personally they don't personify Paul as much as I'd like.
:2cents:
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With option # 6 do these enhancements that, "gain cannot be negated" then get tossed by coliseum?
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Coliseum tosses enhancements with the phrase "cannot be negated" printed on the card. Cards that gain cbn are not tossed.
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I would vote option 6 if the site access was a draw 2 xD
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Let's give DoU a drawback and Clay some dependable speed! Vote 1! Mayhem delenda est!
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Let's give DoU a drawback and Clay some dependable speed! Vote 1! Mayhem delenda est!
I'd be down for option #1 if the TC was removed. But I'll vote against #1 now, if only because of the TC.
Pretty much, as long as it's not something that gives Paul CBN Enhancements, or negates EC or EE CBN. Which takes out about half of the options. :P
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Let's give DoU a drawback and Clay some dependable speed! Vote 1! Mayhem delenda est!
i like option 1! what is the relationship to mayhem?
yeah i do agree with master q the territory class aspect seems somewhat self defeating considering Paul is a missionary so it wouldn't be difficult to utilize the cbn protect offensively in which case it helps while not hurting you if you so choose to play heretics/soul shuffle/etc
haha on top of that negating neutral cards means negating crowds soul and nazareth which is pretty much a clutch way to avoid mayhem.. basically i'm seeing the negate neutral cards as shooting yourself in the foot if you play this card
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I didn't get around to making a submission but I think it would be cool to see some interaction with Missionary Ship on Paul's ability.
Perhaps something like "If you control Missionary Ship, you may draw X (limit 3)."
X=# of your Missionaries in play and set aside.
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Let's give DoU a drawback and Clay some dependable speed! Vote 1! Mayhem delenda est!
i like option 1! what is the relationship to mayhem?
yeah i do agree with master q the territory class aspect seems somewhat self defeating considering Paul is a missionary so it wouldn't be difficult to utilize the cbn protect offensively in which case it helps while not hurting you if you so choose to play heretics/soul shuffle/etc
haha on top of that negating neutral cards means negating crowds soul and nazareth which is pretty much a clutch way to avoid mayhem.. basically i'm seeing the negate neutral cards as shooting yourself in the foot if you play this card
i mean not only are you negating these great ways to avoid being mayhemed you are also negating great ways to keep up with other way faster decks like 4d coin and holy grail, not to mention all of your artifacts which aren't cbn.. :laugh: and punisher
okay okay i'll vote option 1 considering we are going to fine tune the abilities :kenobi: i love it
if this was the final special ability i would play the card
"Protect NT lost souls from evil cards. If Paul is banded into battle you may draw two cards. Cannot be negated."
no territory class and no negate neutral cards.. great ability
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The only thing that will get rid of the Mayhem blight is a ban. One problem at a time, though, and the centralization of DoU and Confusion is slightly more pressing. Reliably getting rid of a free rescue is a great thing, but not when only 2 brigades (which are the strongest anyway) have it. Mayhem delenda est.
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yeah but did you read anything i said about how negating hsr, crowds, and nazareth will only make mayhem and confusion that much more effective for your opponent to play against you? lol
making paul any more of a liability for the person playing him completely defeats the purpose of reprinting him.
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maybe we can negate OT Neutral cards instead. Which seems fitting for the Hebrew of Hebrews. That way you can have crowds and Naz. Personally I like the idea of negate HSR lol
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Thinking about it though, clay has Miraculous Handkerchiefs anyway (a card I would strongly consider if I was using clay), which protects all LS from evil cards. If it's just NT souls, then he doesn't even protect the most important LS in the game to protect from DoU (2/3 liner).
So is a Paul that basically does half of what MH does needed at all? I'm thinking no at this point.
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Not everyone uses liner and almost no one uses MC but everyone uses NT souls now. Also with Paul being a green prophet he is going to be 100% more useful than MC and in a lot of decks. Even if they shuffle liner they'll kill there guy and not win the battle because more than likely another NT soul will be out.
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Not everyone uses liner and almost no one uses MC but everyone uses NT souls now. Also with Paul being a green prophet he is going to be 100% more useful than MC and in a lot of decks. Even if they shuffle liner they'll kill there guy and not win the battle because more than likely another NT soul will be out.
If you're using DoU and Confusion, you're using liner. Not sure how Paul being green affects MH (MC?) use, outside of, sure, green won't use MH. But NT green isn't really a thing, so he'll be in mono clay more often, which is why I mentioned MH. If this were just protecting NT souls, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for someone who really wants to run DoU to use only OT souls. You have:
2 liner
Female
Switch
CBP
Shame
Punisher
Resurrection
Those are all pretty good. Good enough that I wouldn't mind not including the uber popular NT souls to worry about Paul.
My point is that his protect ability is easily worked-around and makes MH obsolete. It doesn't make or break the card for me, but it's a thought. I already said why I didn't vote for #1 earlier.
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If option 1 Paul forces people to only use OT souls that's awesome. They lose a lot of powerful abilties dominating the game right now. Plus you have to consider the player using Paul to also want to be able to use liner, DOU, and confusion.
MH is pretty obsolete as it is.
every card has a down side and this card isn't meant to solve all of the current metas problems,
Unlike the watchman currently winning in the other poll.
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Forgot liner is OT, vote back up for grabs. Mayhem delenda est.
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Really torn between 9 and 6. 6 would be good except almost all the relevant N.T. EEs are CBP anyway and there's no speed. 9 is much better but too unpopular to unseat 1 (which I have, upon further reading, realized is ridiculous wallbreaking for extreme aggro). Mayhem delenda est.
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Cbn enhancements in Clay just seems too powerful with all the interrupting battle winners there so I can't vote 6. I think 1 offers alot of versatility and some answers to meta problems but will definitely need thorough testing and possible adjustments to make sure it doesn't warp the meta even more than it already is.
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We already have Peter and Stephen. Paul would just extend the CBN to Mercy of James as far as interrupters go.
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Really torn between 9 and 6. 6 would be good except almost all the relevant N.T. EEs are CBP anyway and there's no speed. 9 is much better but too unpopular to unseat 1 (which I have, upon further reading, realized is ridiculous wallbreaking for extreme aggro). Mayhem delenda est.
6 over 9 any day. 6 may be boring, but it's better than 9's one-sidedness. Personally, I'd take a straight-up Strong Angel version of Paul that also draws 2 over all of the options that are winning or close, as long as it's not CB anything. Just - "If attacking alone, negate Enhancements and other characters. You may draw 2." As unexciting as that is in and of itself. :P
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Really torn between 9 and 6. 6 would be good except almost all the relevant N.T. EEs are CBP anyway and there's no speed. 9 is much better but too unpopular to unseat 1 (which I have, upon further reading, realized is ridiculous wallbreaking for extreme aggro). Mayhem delenda est.
6 over 9 any day. 6 may be boring, but it's better than 9's one-sidedness. Personally, I'd take a straight-up Strong Angel version of Paul that also draws 2 over all of the options that are winning or close, as long as it's not CB anything. Just - "If attacking alone, negate Enhancements and other characters. You may draw 2." As unexciting as that is in and of itself. :P
9 has been my vote since this thread was opened. It may be one sided, but doesn't that make sense for a character who went from zealous against Christ to zealous for Christ. The "draw 2" is also a nice touch to help Clay's speed level.
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I didn't originally make a submission but I'll post one here and see what people think.
First, I think it makes a ton of sense to include Site Access, but I don't think it should be limited to Paul. Paul sent others out and he brought others along on his journeys so I propose "Missionaries have Site Access."
Second, as has been the case for awhile, Mayhem is still incredibly dominant in terms of its game-changing potential. However, general hand protection (Jacob, Crowds LS) is often risky because of cards like Lions and Entrapping Pharisees so I think an alternate way to protect your hand would be a nice ability to introduce. I propose "If an opponent's card targets your hand, you may draw one instead." This would be very fitting for the story of Acts 28--"Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand...But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects." Something targets your hand but you suffer no ill effect and instead get to draw a card.
Third, Miraculous Handkerchiefs has been brought up and I think that would be a great card to tie in with Paul. "If rescuing, search deck or discard pile for Miraculous Handkerchiefs."
Lastly, "Cannot be negated" because Paul was a boss.
Paul
Missionary/Prophet
7/7 Green/Clay
Missionaries have Site Access. If an opponent's card targets your hand, you may draw one instead. If rescuing, search deck or discard pile for Miraculous Handkerchiefs. Cannot be negated
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Let me know what you guys think 8)
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9 has been my vote since this thread was opened. It may be one sided, but doesn't that make sense for a character who went from zealous against Christ to zealous for Christ. The "draw 2" is also a nice touch to help Clay's speed level.
i mean option 9 is the least conditional and most useful i can see.. the only reason i'm okay with 1 is if the territory class and negate neutral cards goes because that aspect is so self defeating(ie negating way too many useful things to be used against you). we really have to consider the rest of the meta here.. throne- draw heroes and draw abilities galore. judges- draw heroes galore. bom-draw galore. etc.. etc..
all of these have near no conditional restraint in terms of getting to the rest of a decks strategies by drawing+they do other things like auto protecting gideon or reviving joshua to get hit by joshua captain again while they have coliseum out xD
having a d2 for a clay guy who can be splashed is hardly unbalanced-balancing if anything, and making it non conditional is far more meta adjusting than only allowing it by constraint..
nt has 2 fbtn guys where ot has many. clement doesn't even see play. making paul a fbtn and draw guy at least somewhat balances the odds there..
now if you are Polarius who is set on making mayhem obsolete:
Paul -Territory Class
Missionary/Prophet
7/2 Green/Clay
Missionaries have Site Access. If an opponent's card targets your hand, you may draw one instead. If rescuing, search deck or discard pile for Miraculous Handkerchiefs. Cannot be negated
this is your candy. having played miraculous handkerchiefs at state and regionals this year, i can tell you it definitely is worth it and is a phenomenal card when you are playing pretty much anti meta clay against soul shuffling etc. this ability does in fact solve a lot of common problems and would make me want to def play hankies
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guys.. maybe if we make Paul useful more than one person playing clay will at least make it to top cut next year!! ;D
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In a perfect world no deck is in top cut more than once at the same time.
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really hope we iron this one out..
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The reason I think we should be careful with making Paul generically powerful, especially with speed related abilities, is that clay already has a ton of extremely powerful tools, but several of the best are cornered into their own decks (Each church) to prevent an OP deck being built with the rest of each. Paul obviously can't be stuck into one church, and so a powerful Paul makes EVERY clay related deck more powerful. On top of this given he'll be green he could potentially end up in any number of other deck types. For example, a clay/green Paul could use every GE in Gabe's Nats winning deck and by providing another clay Hero, would open up the possibility of playing cards like Word of Christ. Clay/Green is one of most potentially dangerous brigade combos to add to the game and a lot of thought should go into making one, especially with anything speed related.
I like Guardian's suggestion and would gladly vote for it if it was an option. It fits thematically, it's unique, and most importantly, it forces the opponent to make more choices about their plays. This is one of the best things a card can do in a game and is exactly the kind of ability a card with potentially far reaching deck options should have. The only thing I would change about it is dropping the Cannot be Negated to prevent it being played in Moses decks.
Edit: Alternatively instead of removing CBN, adding "While all your Heros are NT" would solve the Moses deck issue.
Edit2: The draw instead should not be a may. Hand/deck protection is balanced because there are some cards that punish you for having a protected hand. An optional hand protection ability would be a little too good IMO.
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Suggestion for scripture verse:
Romans 1:1 - "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God"
Says who he is and what he's about. Simple and straightforward.
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I haven't paid much attention to Paul since Watchman won popular vote. But I did have a brainstorm in church yesterday :-)
Verse suggestion:
Philippians 3:8 (NIV84) "What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ."
I know it's too late, but here's a corresponding special ability:
"Remove all cards from your discard pile from the game. Ignore enhancements. If rescue attempt fails, remove all cards in opponent's discard pile from the game. "
L8er,
Gil
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Interesting concept, but enhancements are not "ignorable" only characters can be ignored in the current mechanics of the game. :)
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Interesting concept, but enhancements are not "ignorable" only characters can be ignored in the current mechanics of the game. :)
Queen of Sheba's SA apparently ignores EE's
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fredemption%2Fimages%2F1%2F17%2FQueen_of_Sheba_%2528Wo%2529.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%2Fscale-to-width-down%2F241%3Fcb%3D20130420221922&hash=9c5253ae99e7cc3013baed8e9ea470503e6b81b4)
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Old wording does not fall under "the current mechanics of the game." AFAIK, Queen of Sheba just negates those cards.
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Old wording does not fall under "the current mechanics of the game." AFAIK, Queen of Sheba just negates those cards.
lol I get that. I thought it was funny that I found an example.
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Hmm, totally forgot that Queen of Sheba negates Confusion...I kinda want to make a Purple Female deck now... 8)
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not to mention lemuel :-X
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I threw her in my throne deck to band her in with Faith of David or Ezekiel stick to negate confusion lol
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Hmm, totally forgot that Queen of Sheba negates Confusion...I kinda want to make a Purple Female deck now... 8)
How many purple females are there? There can't be enough to make a whole deck out of them!
Edit: ok, i stand corrected. you CAN make a deck with mostly purple females. it's not the best deck, but it certainly can fit in with this current meta. Splashing them with 1 samuel/throne is pretty good.
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Call me when y'all get to the artwork part 8)
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King's Daughter involves music, Pharaoh's Daughter is Exodus, and Queenie negates The Warper. Definitely potential for a chick-heavy white/purple deck. Mayhem delenda est.
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I'm late to the discussion, but here goes.
Option 6 ("Paul has Site Access. N.T. Enhancements used by Paul gain Cannot Be Negated. Negate all N.T. Evil enhancements. Cannot be negated.") is the perfect hero for the BoM deck, or any FBTN/Coliseum deck. Grants CBN enhancements that get around Coliseum, can use all 7 GEs from Gabe's deck, and makes NT defenses FBTN.
I really like The Guardian's idea. Because Paul was so important in the building of many churches and he converted so many unbelievers, I'd build it more towards church-building and conversion than hand protection. Hand protection can be handled by a less "important" hero ;)
10/10 Green/Clay
TC
Identifiers: May hold one active Miraculous Handkerchiefs or Paul's Books and Parchments
"Missionaries have Site Access. If one rescues, search deck or discard pile for a Romans - Philemon hero: You may decrease Paul 7/7 to draw 1, band that hero into battle, and convert a human to Clay. Cannot be negated."
Why the self-decrease? Because of II Corinthians 11:23-30 and 12:9, and Paul's emphasis in his writings on making himself less so that others can be built up and Christ can be glorified, and to add a limiting factor to how often or easy it is to activate the ability, and the fact that it hasn't really been done before.