Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: CJSports on December 27, 2011, 05:35:21 PM
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I was thinking about this after seeing a couple of threads. What if we had cards that were neutral characters. They could either block or make rescue attempts. I think s lot of beasts and others that were not opposed to God but had an open mind or a good values could be made into these cards. Each would have a stipulation though on when it could block or when it could make a rescue like, Constantine the Great. The first Roman Emperor to allow Christianity but was not a Christian himself. He could block only warrior class heros and could only make a rescue attmep when you have a roman hero in play or something to that effect.
Thoughts???
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It's been proposed before and I've always been against it. I'm not completely opposed to a new card type, but battles should be between good and evil, though they can be aided by neutral artifacts, etc.
And on the note of Constantine, I'm against post-biblical characters.
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I know he was after bible times he was just a good example of a neutral character.
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This was brought up before, but I don't see why Redemption needs it right now. There are far more pressing issues to attend to.
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This was brought up before, but I don't see why Redemption needs it right now. There are far more pressing issues to attend to.
This is true but I think it would be a fun add to the meta, I think it would encourage different play styles. The characters could do different things instead of blocking/ making a rescue. It could band itself into battle to help the hero/EC in battle. And have an extra brigade added and numbers and it's SA so it could help either side.
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The already have these characters in a sense because of Paul/Saul. When Saul is played he can defend and when converted to Paul he can attack... I don't see whats the problem.
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The already have these characters in a sense because of Paul/Saul. When sSaul is played he can defend and when converted to Paul he can attack... I don't see whats the problem.
Conversion =/= neutral. any character can be converted with certain cards, that doesn't make them neutral and it would be a pain to have to play a conversion enhancement every time you wanted to use the neutral guy
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Just a suggestion.
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When the PTB were making ROA/FOOF2, they had characters (well, at least one. I don't remember if there were others) that were both evil and good in the early lists, and you'd choose which one it was when you played it. Similar to the evil/good enhancements. None of them made it very far through, though..
It isn't the same as neutral characters, but it is similar.
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The main argument against cards like this is that it threatens the fundamentally delicate balance of gameplay vs. accuracy. Redemption, at its core, flaunts accuracy ("I'm going to use my Moses to kill your Judas Iscariot! Haha!"), but sometimes rules are necessary to avoid toeing the line of outright heresy (demons not being able to be redeemed is a good example of this, though regarding gameplay, it arguably adds more strategy to the game). Simply put, only Heroes (or Evil Characters who have become Heroes via conversion) should ever be able to rescue Lost Souls. It wouldn't make sense to have any characters, from the Bible or not (more on that in a second), that could rescue a Lost Soul one turn, and then turn around and block another Hero from rescuing a Lost Soul the next turn. The only way I could see this even being remotely feasible from a theological prospective is some kind of "Overzealous Christian" or "Struggling Christian," and even then, I don't really think that that's a route that Cactus needs to go down. I'd be much, much more inclined to see something like what Sauce mentioned, and even then, that's iffy, and would have to be handled delicately.
Regarding characters that are not found strictly in the Bible, I am (and have always been) against the idea. Roman Emperors is a fun theme to mess around with (despite them being nothing resembling competitive right now), but I feel that the game should be more focused on being Biblically accurate before it needs to dip into the ocean that is people outside of the Bible. If the game is still around in two decades and we've run out of Biblical characters, then that's a different story, but as it stands, I think it's just unnecessary.
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I think Emperors are still very viable, at least with hand discard....
I do see what you mean by being able to do both block and rescue. I think they should be more support cards like a unknown warrior who we never knew if he was a christian or not. So then his SA could be used to support either your evil or good character in battle if he said something like increase abilities of your character in battle 5/5 or something. They would all have neutral abilities but things that could help out during battle.
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I still feel like that's treading a very dangerous line that's best avoided altogether. As a gameplay element, it's at the very least intriguing, but it's also one that would need to be hammered out more. I'm not sure that it would be worth introducing it since it would only be usable by a very small number of cards.
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See I think the characters would be very wide used in every theme. Also it's okay to tread on lines because we would just be playtesting such cards which would do no harm and if they prove to be unstable to the game then :giveup:. But I still would like to pursue this idea.
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See I think the characters would be very wide used in every theme. Also it's okay to tread on lines because we would just be playtesting such cards which would do no harm and if they prove to be unstable to the game then :giveup:. But I still would like to pursue this idea.
I cringe when I hear about new cards that will be "widely used." There are too many staple cards already.
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The already have these characters in a sense because of Paul/Saul. When sSaul is played he can defend and when converted to Paul he can attack... I don't see whats the problem.
any character can be converted with certain cards,
Not demons.
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I think having a "hero" or "evil character" is a distinct part of the game that should remain undisturbed. (With the exceptions of Saul/Paul, etc...)
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See I think the characters would be very wide used in every theme. Also it's okay to tread on lines because we would just be playtesting such cards which would do no harm and if they prove to be unstable to the game then :giveup:. But I still would like to pursue this idea.
I cringe when I hear about new cards that will be "widely used." There are too many staple cards already.
I don't think staple cards per say but they would be like how Arts or Sites are used in decks.
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Well, because there are several character in the Bible who spent time being evil, but then became good it would be an interesting if say a card starts off evil but after a determined number of turns becomes good CBN.
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That would be the only way it would work, and I remember there being some discussion about King Mannaseh, since he repented at the end of his reign. Even then, it sounds overly complicated, and we should focus on balancing the meta out before we focus on adding new gameplay elements (except perhaps territory class characters).
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yeah I forgot to add a bit about how this is somethingthat could maybe be attempted in a few years from now
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That would be the only way it would work, and I remember there being some discussion about King Mannaseh, since he repented at the end of his reign. Even then, it sounds overly complicated, and we should focus on balancing the meta out before we focus on adding new gameplay elements (except perhaps territory class characters).
Hwo would territory class characters work???
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Basically, territory class characters would have a part of their ability (or all of the ability) that activates once they enter play, not battle. Especially if this was used with evil characters, it could give them a bit more of an edge and make defenses more viable. Imagine having a magician that can't be discarded as soon as it enters play, and protects any cards placed/activated on it from discard. The only things I've ever really been able to think of are all protect abilities, but I feel like there's a lot of potential if this idea is handled by people more creative than I. It's an idea that came up in a few threads a while ago and I've always wanted to see it implemented.
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Basically, territory class characters would have a part of their ability (or all of the ability) that activates once they enter play, not battle. Especially if this was used with evil characters, it could give them a bit more of an edge and make defenses more viable. Imagine having a magician that can't be discarded as soon as it enters play, and protects any cards placed/activated on it from discard. The only things I've ever really been able to think of are all protect abilities, but I feel like there's a lot of potential if this idea is handled by people more creative than I. It's an idea that came up in a few threads a while ago and I've always wanted to see it implemented.
Of course, the playtesters will have to add draw abilities to this "just to make themes playable."
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Why not the exact opposite? A few ECs in various brigades that restrict drawing wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Why not the exact opposite? A few ECs in various brigades that restrict drawing wouldn't be a bad idea.
We've already got plenty of cards that restrict drawing.
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Searching is a problem too. Kill drawing and searches will become rampant.
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Kill searches too then, I dunno. The point is that territory class evil characters could kill two birds with one stone: slow decks down and encourage large defenses.
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Seven Years of Famine is actually awesome for that, but everybody would rather use Seven Years of Plenty.
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It's is a cool idea but I'm talking about a character that isn't good or evil and it doesn't convert one way or the other.
Well, because there are several character in the Bible who spent time being evil, but then became good it would be an interesting if say a card starts off evil but after a determined number of turns becomes good CBN.
This is not really what I was thinking and we have saul/paul already which if you noticed not to many people use. That's is why I thought neutral characters would be kind of cool. Their abilities would activate at certain times during the battle helping out your character under certain stipulations. It's kind of like the new enhancements because they have a good and evil stipulation so if I want to play razor I either half to have an assyrian or Isaiah. These would say if a warrior class character is in battle do this or something to that effect.