Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on October 18, 2012, 02:08:53 PM
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Notice the identifier.
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The identifier wouldnt work.
I say this card is way too OP without a good way to get rid of it. Remember Dominants cannot be negated no matter what so having a regardless of Protection makes the are insanely overpowered.
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Legion has an identifier that works outside of the game (alters the deck building rules). I see no reason why this wouldn't work.
Drawing is seriously running rampant in this game. Also, this is not like Rain Becomes Dust where the drawn cards are discarded. You get to keep the ones you draw, but you waste just as many. It simply makes you think twice before drawing.
So yeah, it's supposed to be crazy strong. However, it does nothing by itself, it's purely a reactive card. The opponent can counter it by simply... not drawing.
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Perfect. And there are a plethora of ways to Discard an Evil card in your territory, so it's not like this is permanent.
Aside, the "theirs"s are driving me crazy with politically-correct subject-pronoun disagreement.
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If everyone at a Multi table would play this it would totally change Multi and make it a more viable game
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"they must discard another card"
Couldn't you just say "they must discard top card"? Or do they get to choose which card to discard?
I also think Regardless of Protection is unnecessary. Nazzy wouldn't stop it, and Jerusalem Tower seeing play again would be a good thing.
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Couldn't you just say "they must discard top card"? Or do they get to choose which card to discard?
I like the idea of letting the person drawing which cards are discarded.
Like on a D3 instead Reveal 6 and opponent chooses 3 to keep an 3 to discard
SA
When opponent uses and draw ability, instead reveal twice the number of cards drawn. Opponent must choose half of the cards to be discarded and the add the rest to hand.
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Also, top decking it seems a bit OP. There are plenty of ways to search for Evil Dominants. And by plenty I mean 3. Still.
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"they must discard another card"
Couldn't you just say "they must discard top card"? Or do they get to choose which card to discard?
It is supposed to be the top card. I could change the wording there.
I also think Regardless of Protection is unnecessary. Nazzy wouldn't stop it, and Jerusalem Tower seeing play again would be a good thing.
Drawing needs to be slowed down and I didn't want passive abilities to stop this card. Also, as I said above, the destructiveness of this card is directly related to how much they draw. Think twice before you go to draw extra cards.
Also, this card might cause John Promos to see play. :)
I like the idea of letting the person drawing which cards are discarded.
Like on a D3 instead Reveal 6 and opponent chooses 3 to keep an 3 to discard
SA
When opponent uses and draw ability, instead reveal twice the number of cards drawn. Opponent must choose half of the cards to be discarded and the add the rest to hand.
No, I want there to be an uncertainty about what will be discarded. Otherwise they'll just pick the cards they need. As it's worded, they have a 50/50 chance to draw that they need, and a 50/50 chance to discard it.
They have to decide if that's a risk they want to take.
Also, top decking it seems a bit OP. There are plenty of ways to search for Evil Dominants. And by plenty I mean 3. Still.
If you're going to counter speed, you CANNOT rely on drawing a card, because then it just turns into a speed vs speed situation.
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I think as is, is OP.
allowing them to choose reduces its OPness while still being able to decimate a deck
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I think as is, is OP.
allowing them to choose reduces its OPness while still being able to decimate a deck
Or else aids in them getting SoG quicker near the end of the game.
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I really don't like this card as it is. I kinda like the idea of having an anti-speed dominant, but I like that the dom cap has resulted in some interesting debates over which doms to include and it adds another layer of strategy to deck building. This card, however, because you are guaranteed to get it right away, would be a staple in every deck, since there is pretty much never a reason not to include it.
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I think as is, is OP.
allowing them to choose reduces its OPness while still being able to decimate a deck
It's ENTIRELY reactive. It does nothing if they don't use drawing abilities, and this card targets nothing but drawing.
The opponent gets to decide how much of their deck is destroyed by this card.
This card, however, because you are guaranteed to get it right away, would be a staple in every deck, since there is pretty much never a reason not to include it.
I see this as a good thing. Drawing is WAY too prevalent in this game. Once people begin using less drawing, this card becomes less of a staple, and then things balance out.
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I updated the ability a bit. Clarified what cards are discarded, and allowed the card to target all players, including the owner of the card. Now you can't just throw this in and expect to use drawing in your own deck. Finally, the ability has to be on a card the player owns. This prevents you from abusing CTB to force a discard.
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Love this card! I want it!!!!
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This card, however, because you are guaranteed to get it right away, would be a staple in every deck, since there is pretty much never a reason not to include it.
This, this, this. This card is so OP as written that it would have to go in every deck, because your 7th dom has no hope of being that powerful.
So all we'll get is pushing everyone to play Prophets. The amount of ways to get rid of it there (Baptism of Jesus, Forest Fire, Razor, Seraph with Live Coal, Nathan, etc.), plus the fact that it relies on searches (which are getting worse than draw in overuse) and very little draw (just Isaiah) all adds up to it being the perfect counter. And if everyone is using one card they always get out, you'll want to use the best counter. And the best counter is being unaffected but still being able to destroy if desired.
Also, let's get back to the OP and the fact that the identifier is not a good precedent to set IMO ;)
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This, this, this. This card is so OP as written that it would have to go in every deck, because your 7th dom has no hope of being that powerful.
So all we'll get is pushing everyone to play Prophets. The amount of ways to get rid of it there (Baptism of Jesus, Forest Fire, Razor, Seraph with Live Coal, Nathan, etc.), plus the fact that it relies on searches (which are getting worse than draw in overuse) and very little draw (just Isaiah) all adds up to it being the perfect counter. And if everyone is using one card they always get out, you'll want to use the best counter. And the best counter is being unaffected but still being able to destroy if desired.
Ooooorrrrr..... We'll push everyone to stop putting so much drawing in their decks.
This card cannot win battles directly. It does nothing to cards in play. I'm not seeing how it is so OP. Do players really have to rely on drawing THAT much?
Also, let's get back to the OP and the fact that the identifier is not a good precedent to set IMO ;)
This is a special case. As I said before, if you want to counter drawing right now, you need to hope you draw your counter before they draw their entire deck. This bypasses that.
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I agree with Lambo entirely. It's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OP, especially now that it affects everyone equally. You're taking up a Dom slot to get zero active benefit, it can't win a battle, it can't block, it can't affect the score, and it reduces your opening hand to 7 potentially-active cards. I'm flabbergasted that anyone thinks it's OP.
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I like it, I have been wanting a hard counter to speed for a while. Drawing and searching/exchange are IMO the two of the biggest flaws in the game right now, drawing being the worst. This could go a long way to stopping that, we should put it in the new starters.
:)
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I agree with Redoubter in that the identifier is not a good precedent to set. But I do recognize how specific counters are usually not worth being played due to the whole 'having to draw them before an opponent goes off' thing, which this card solves pretty handily. However, for something as powerful as a guaranteed turn 1 meta counter, the card needs to be heavily balanced, and I'm glad to see it become more balanced than what it was earlier today. Perhaps it could use even more tuning, as in discard 1 card from top of deck each time an instance of a drawing ability is used. Or, that player must discard 1 random card from hand when they use a drawing ability. Not quite as devastating as seriously curbing players from drawing in fear of discarding their entire deck, but it does neg them 1 and the randomness makes things interesting.
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Huge decks could also abuse this card as is pretty easily.
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Overbalancing has killed every potential speed counter ever made. Since it affects all players, it's automatically balanced. Neither you nor your opponent can draw, but you're the one who lost a dom slot and one of his opening draw to affect it. Furthermore, you can still draw. This does nothing to stop drawing, only associate a cost with it.
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It's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OP
So you disagree that card games can have the Cobra Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect), but it can and does happen all the time in every card game in existence (look no further than the progression of abilities in Redemption). The premise that a 'reactive' card cannot be itself OP is very much incorrect. OP is based on what the card can do.
And I love how everyone just accepts an assumption like speed's power as fact :laugh: It is most important to T1MP, and people seem to dislike that category (judging from Nats participation and comments here). Searching is just as (if not more) powerful, and we had many cards out there to 'fix' the most egregious affront to the game that is searching (i.e. AuTO). Now we're back to speed, and just speed. Wonder when it'll shift back ;)
EDIT: Noticed that the new version has removed "regardless of protection". That makes it significantly less OP, which is good (unless that was just missed in the redo).
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Love the card now. I'm still iffy about the identifier, but as long as it's the only one ever made, I won't cry about it.
It'd also make the Tin I lost soul potentially see a LOT more play.
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Love the card now. I'm still iffy about the identifier, but as long as it's the only one ever made, I won't cry about it.
It'd also make the Tin I lost soul potentially see a LOT more play.
Keep in mind, it now says "Place in a territory", so you can put it in your own territory if you wish. The owner gets to make that decision, as it can change how long the card stays in play.
EDIT: Noticed that the new version has removed "regardless of protection". That makes it significantly less OP, which is good (unless that was just missed in the redo).
Oops, yeah I did forget that, but I may leave it as is for now.
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It's literally impossible for a purely reactive card to be OP
So you disagree that card games can have the Cobra Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect), but it can and does happen all the time in every card game in existence (look no further than the progression of abilities in Redemption). The premise that a 'reactive' card cannot be itself OP is very much incorrect. OP is based on what the card can do.
No doubt. CBN was the answer to FBTN, but ended up being a huge game design flaw.
I'm also still failing to see how anyone is 'losing' anything by choosing what one of your cards will be in your opening hand, a guaranteed turn 1 advantage no less. Lets see...I fine tuned my deck completely around this card while putting the meta on lock from turn 1. Yeah, advantage me.
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This is untold amounts of OP, especially since there are plenty of speed cards that don't give the user the option to not draw.
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This is untold amounts of OP, especially since there are plenty of speed cards that don't give the user the option to not draw.
Such as?
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Defense more specifically. There have been times I could have gotten a block with Damsel/SB/Vit but chose not to because RBD was up.
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Also the wording on this card is a little weird right now, and I think the way its worded now it would actually stack with Rain becomes Dust, since it says when they use a drawing ability, not when they actually draw.
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Also the wording on this card is a little weird right now, and I think the way its worded now it would actually stack with Rain becomes Dust, since it says when they use a drawing ability, not when they actually draw.
Ah, I didn't even think of that. I was trying to think of the cleanest way to word it so it targeted all players.
I'm open to rewording suggestions, as long as they have the same intended effect.
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The more i have thought on this today the more i find myself agreeing with pol and lambo that this isnt OP for the reasons they expressed my original thought seems to me incorrect . . . yes some characters or cards require you to draw but, you dont have to put them in your deck . . that is a risk your taking when you put them in . . .this card would change the game for the better IMO
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That's like saying don't put Sog/NJ in your deck just because Alter of Ahaz exists. -_-
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disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar and 2 bc its not going to be in play immediately 3 there are a ton of ways to get rid of altar including a dom
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disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...
You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? ::) That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.
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disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...
You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? ::) That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.
I do understand your point, but you may want a better example than Alter of Ahaz. Altar has no guarantee of being drawn, especially before the doms are. This card has that guarantee. Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect). This card has less than 10 from my count, and most of those are in single themes and would choose the deck for you (Prophets) or are obscure/otherwise not useful.
Rather, I would say that an example could be protection forts making it so no one plays territory destruction, which hasn't been the case.
However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
And to whoever is doing it, there's no reason to scan through to find posts that disagree logically and -1 them ::) Counter with your own case if you think it's warranted ;)
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However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.
And to whoever is doing it, there's no reason to scan through to find posts that disagree logically and -1 them ::) Counter with your own case if you think it's warranted ;)
That was not me. :)
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However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.
If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively
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However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.
If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively
This is the problem I'm hoping this card fixes. The fact that drawing is REQUIRED in every deck is a game flaw. As more drawing is added, other themes need to gain drawing to remain competitive. This trend absolutely needs to be broken.
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However, the card as written is still OP in my opinion (which is my right, just as the opposite view is valid). It is made better by affecting all players and if there is no "regardless of protection," but there are legitimate reasons to dislike the idea behind this card (especially the identifier) and to believe it is OP.
Drawing does not win battles directly. This card is only OP if your decks rely on heavy amounts of drawing, but that's the point of it. You say this card forces you to play Prophets, but that's simply not true. If you play a deck that uses zero drawing, you don't need to worry about it. As I said before, if you don't draw, this card does nothing to you.
If you are playing a deck that uses zero drawing, you are not playing competitively
This is the problem I'm hoping this card fixes. The fact that drawing is REQUIRED in every deck is a game flaw. As more drawing is added, other themes need to gain drawing to remain competitive. This trend absolutely needs to be broken.
The problem is it won't fix the dominance of speed, just shift it. Search is already becoming as popular as draw, and this only encourages it to be used all the more.
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The problem is it won't fix the dominance of speed, just shift it. Search is already becoming as popular as draw, and this only encourages it to be used all the more.
Search/Exchange isn't nearly as bad in my opinion. When combined with drawing though? Yeah, then it becomes a major problem.
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disagree because 1 not everyone plays altar...
You do realize the exact same thing can be said about this card, right? ::) That more than perpetuates the point I was making...despite counters being out there and available, people are still likely to use cards that are powerful. Not every deck would use this card, and quite likely very few would. The question is, do you prepare towards the meta or do you prepare towards your rogue matchups against this card in a Game 1 only format? The answer is fairly obvious.
I do understand your point, but you may want a better example than Alter of Ahaz. Altar has no guarantee of being drawn, especially before the doms are. This card has that guarantee. Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect). This card has less than 10 from my count, and most of those are in single themes and would choose the deck for you (Prophets) or are obscure/otherwise not useful.
My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth. Until a vast majority of the meta starts maining these counters, people will continue to use these powerful cards because the rewards are far greater than the risk. Sure, Wastefulness guarantees you that first turn counter, but it's also a counter that has to be built around, which means very few decks are able to take advantage of it, which makes it even more rogue than the aforementioned counters. Again, I'd rather prepare for what I'm more likely to see in a best of 1 format rather than what I'm not.
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).
I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?
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My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.
You're referring to specific cards that people use, not the entirety of an ability that has been printed into every theme in the past several sets. You're also referring to counters that are themselves subject to more counters, and which are dealt with more easily in competitive decks. These two situations are not comparable for those reasons.
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).
I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?
Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor
1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.
That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card ;)
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My point has less to do with Alter itself than it has to do with counters in general. People will still use powerful cards despite the counters in circulation. People still use Damsel/SB/Vit/FF regardless of Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust. People still use Danny and friends regardless of Nazareth.
You're referring to specific cards that people use, not the entirety of an ability that has been printed into every theme in the past several sets. You're also referring to counters that are themselves subject to more counters, and which are dealt with more easily in competitive decks. These two situations are not comparable for those reasons.
Not following you in the least bit here. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you that Alter is to Sog/NJ as RBD/Naz is to Mayhem, and the fact people will still continue to use powerful cards regardless of counters.
Altar has dozens of counters (any anti-artifact effect).
I'd like to address this. Of these 'dozens' of counters available, how many are actually used?
Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor
1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.
That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card ;)
Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here. ::)
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Not following you in the least bit here. I don't know how much more clear I can make it to you that Alter is to Sog/NJ as RBD/Naz is to Mayhem, and the fact people will still continue to use powerful cards regardless of counters.
You're not following me, it seems. I pointed out that you are referring to 'cards', and we're referring to 'abilities' (one of the most prevalent and promoted by Cactus in the sets to come out of late). That's a big difference. Another big difference is that the counters you mentioned have their own counters that get used.
Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here. ::)
If you are legitimately going to suggest that those cards don't see use (especially without backing that up), then there's little we can have in way of a discussion. Gotta be able to discuss it logically to have one of those ;)
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Abimelech
Siege Army
Bab Soldiers
Captured Ark
Chaldeans
Desecrate the Temple
DoN
Forest Fire
Foreign Sword
Fortify Site
Joseph Before Pharaoh
Razor
1 dozen to start with, with the following exclusions: I ignored the cards that just discard an artifact and have to be used in battle (they do seem to have liked those a lot for the number there are...), the cards that discard an artifact in pile/face-down (only picked ones to hit 'active' artifacts), the cards that can turn off the artifact for just 1 turn to play the doms (even though some of those are very useful and have other abilities), and then picked the ones that get used in competitive decks more often.
That was a quick review, and I disregarded a lot of cards, so now it's your turn, find me the list for this card ;)
Maybe you missed the 'actually used' part of my post. Let's be a lot more honest here. ::)
Redoubter is spot on. Almost every deck in today's meta has at least one of those cards. I can't even count the number of times (there are way too many times) I have seen those cards played against me in Aug-Oct.
I am just going to assume you haven't played enough with the newer cards to see how these cards are proliferated in the meta.
Kirk
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I'm sorry, but the meta is what? Dan, Fbtnb, TGT, Di? I'm not going to argue these 4 have at least one of those cards from the list, DoN and Captured Ark being the standouts as they fit in absolutely any deck. But certainly nowhere near the number provided.
If a deck contains any of those other situational and far more limited counters, then I'm not exactly worried as I know I'm not playing against Tier 1 meta.
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Well then, if your going to just discount those cards (which were seen at Nats, by the by), then I can't wait to see what makes the cut as counters to the proposed card.
Still waiting on that list ;) I played along and provided you a list, will you reciprocate?
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Well then, if your going to just discount those cards (which were seen at Nats, by the by), then I can't wait to see what makes the cut as counters to the proposed card.
First of all, let's make this very clear I'm referencing T1. Kirk is primarily T2, so perhaps he is lumping those cards in with the T2 meta. I'm strictly speaking T1 for all intents and purposes.
Two, just because you see some decks (as in, not the vast majority) using particular cards certainly does not in anyway make it meta. -_- You go to Nats, you prepare for the meta. You do not go expecting to see Fortify Site in over half the decks.
Still waiting on that list ;) I played along and provided you a list, will you reciprocate?
Maybe you're confused, as I never proffered to provide a list of counters to Wastefulness in the first place? ??? I have yet to comment, much less show actual concern, on what counters are available to this card. That's an entirely different tangent I'm not even sure why you're challenging me on. What I did do was ask you for legit counters used in the meta against Alter since you so boldly claimed there are literally dozens of them, of which only 3 from your list are actually played in todays meta (2 if anyone besides Martin actually plays Fbtnb).
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I'm always amazed how everyone "knows" the meta. At least until they get to Nats and someone introduces something new no one was planning for or complaining about all year ::)
You specifically asked what was used. Those cards are all used. And the number of times you insist that every single person uses the exact same deck doesn't affect the fact that its not true ;)
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I'm always amazed how everyone "knows" the meta. At least until they get to Nats and someone introduces something new no one was planning for or complaining about all year ::)
I guess you're going off on another completely different tangent, but yes. That's generally how rogue decks are able to sometimes win big tournaments in any CCG. ::)
You specifically asked what was used. Those cards are all used. And the number of times you insist that every single person uses the exact same deck doesn't affect the fact that its not true ;)
Sorry, next time I'll say 'actually used in the meta'. I don't know, it might just be me, but cards used in the meta tend to actually be good. If it isn't meta, then is it really relevant at all?
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Sorry, next time I'll say 'actually used in the meta'. I don't know, it might just be me, but cards used in the meta tend to actually be good. If it isn't meta, then is it really relevant at all?
If 'meta' wins all of the top positions at the high-level tournaments, then you'd be right. But it doesn't. And of course they're relavent. Saying that cards don't matter because you don't use them is a little close-minded, and the best deck designers over the past few years have been open to the new strategies as far as I can tell.
Forgot the part about the lists in my other post. I figured that if you were going to challenge me on a point I made, you'd want to actually prove that it has no validity. As far as I know, there are 0 counters to this card in the very strict confines of the 'meta' as you define it, which is why I ask for you to show that there is no actual difference, as you seemed to contend.
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Sorry, next time I'll say 'actually used in the meta'. I don't know, it might just be me, but cards used in the meta tend to actually be good. If it isn't meta, then is it really relevant at all?
If 'meta' wins all of the top positions at the high-level tournaments, then you'd be right. But it doesn't.
Were the majority of the decks that topped this years Nats not meta? How about the year before that, or perhaps the year before that?
And of course they're relavent. Saying that cards don't matter because you don't use them is a little close-minded, and the best deck designers over the past few years have been open to the new strategies as far as I can tell.
I never said what I use. I did say what the meta tends to use. Let's not confuse that. And no, if it's not meta, then it matters very little. ::)
Forgot the part about the lists in my other post. I figured that if you were going to challenge me on a point I made, you'd want to actually prove that it has no validity.
75% of your list was invalid in regards to what the meta actually uses in their decks. There are many reasons the majority of the T1 meta do not use any of those other cards. Situational, subpar usage of resources, forced playing of inferior themes, inconsistencies, dead draws, etc. The reasons are many. And if you do see those cards dropped against you? Then it's not meta, it's not something you will see in the majority of your matchups, it's cards many top players would not give the time of day, thus not even worth the effort of preparing for. I don't think anyone is going to sweat bullets over seeing Ezekial or Babylonians. ::)
As far as I know, there are 0 counters to this card in the very strict confines of the 'meta' as you define it, which is why I ask for you to show that there is no actual difference, as you seemed to contend.
Actual difference in regards to what exactly?
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Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David, MLAMG are all meta and discard an evil card, including Wastefulness.
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Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David, MLAMG are all meta and discard an evil card, including Wastefulness.
hmmm, that might actually get me to put Edict back in my deck. Hadn't thought of that
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I don't mind this card, its decent, but not really that powerful. It had enough counters that could easily be put into decks if it were a problem, as well as a shift in deck construction. Although I would argue that it is far closer to underpowered than over:
1) It only affects things that are (in general) choices your opponent makes at the time the card is activated (many of the card draw abilities are may) therefore it won't stop them from being in decks because they have card draw.
2) It doesn't actually stop card draw, just adds a trigger effect that can be rather annoying, but doesn't effect a battle directly, only the game as a whole.
3) It really only works in a deck that doesn't have lots of drawing (or one that doesn't care if half their deck gets discarded in the process of drawing)
4) It can fairly easily be discarded or will be able to be fairly easily discarded as the game continues.
The arguments from the point of view of meta cards is silly. Yes you may be right that very few counters to counters are in decks, but if the counters became used to the point the decks have difficulty dealing with something the meta will change to deal with that. The meta is the pools of cards that give results, therefore if results aren't coming out of a specific strategy the meta will shift to deal with that. The problem comes when there is only one or two decks that work at all.
My final rating of this card is that it wouldn't be an effective counter to speed, it would however be an incredible counter to combo decks. The entire idea of speed is to get the cards it needs quickly to win, however if you think about it, does half your deck matter? (although its probably close to 1/3 that would be hit). There are many times that I would discard 3 cards from my deck to draw 3 cards, in fact, if it comes down to winning a battle or not, of course I would. But then again I play T2 and I run on the deck building theory that my entire deck looks fairly similar (or at least most cards get similar results) when looking at it from a distance so losing X cards is mostly meaningless because the next X will accomplish the same thing (not to mention recursion).
So I say this is a cool card, and possibly a somewhat effective one, but all in all I would suggest that this wouldn't be an overpowered card and probably wouldn't make it into most decks, in fact I would say its biggest advantage would be in weakening dominants, since those are the cards that would be hit hardest by this, there is usually another character or enhancement to take the place on one discarded, but there is only one SoG or Angel of the Lord in a deck.
And with those walls of text I say, I may be wrong about my suggestions, they are more of a product of my experience, which may be heavily influenced by the amount I have been thinking about a different card game that shall not be named (you know the one). But I like that people are still working on counters for speed.
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The identifier wouldn't work because its supposed to activate at a limbo point. Legion has a Deck-building Identifier, all other cards have in-game identifiers, this card has neither of those. The identifier is really an OP search ability that is supposed to trigger before the start of the game which in every other game I've played it was called cheating.
The card itself is not so bad now... I still don't like a Deck-Discard Dom, but I could live with it if there was an 'opt out' Option. ( like Discard the top or the card you drew) and make it that it's for the player's territory it's placed in. I still don't like that its a Dom and as such is inherently CBN (like we need more of that) and that in itself makes the Dom almost OP. But this will not nessessarily harm most Decks, just Gardensciples and Sam (and that's only by a bit for Sam). More Decks are looking towards Searching anyways and that needs more counters then it currently has.
I also agree this card will make Prophets decks get even more play then they already have. Also, a side note KChief, if your area is still seeing Disciples played, then they are behind in the meta. FF2 and RoA2 have them an insane amount of damage and made them less playable because of the damage they took (especially since they can lose Boat and so many CBN's now) either way I still don't like this card too much. It could work better as a Lost Soul.
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Also, a side note KChief, if your area is still seeing Disciples played, then they are behind in the meta. FF2 and RoA2 have them an insane amount of damage and made them less playable because of the damage they took (especially since they can lose Boat and so many CBN's now)...
So your assertion is just because the new set sees counters to Disciples this somehow makes them 'unplayable' now? That couldn't be further from the truth. You seem to be under the impression that somehow Boat is the lynchpin of the deck, which it isn't. It isn't like the deck falls apart without Boat. Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust are still far better counters that still see play in the meta more than anything else pushed out of FF2/RoA2. Aside from Covenant with Death possibly, but then you're putting yourself in the exact same camp as Wastefulness: your deck must be built and specifically tailored around the card itself to take advantage of it.
Again, I just can't get behind the line of thinking that just because counters are being printed every expansion this somehow equates to the meta shifting drastically. It isn't, the same exact stuff plus the new flavor of the year (Danny and fwiends this year) still top Nats every single year. TGT was printed how long ago, and it's received how many counters since then? Would you argue TGT players are also 'behind the meta' as well? ::) As ChristianSoldier said, the meta are the decks that produce results. That's how meta's are defined...by what's good, what's working, what produces positive results consistently every time, what everyone is using because of that. TGT, Di, and FbtnB are still very consistent decks and quite capable of easily topping despite being older archetypes, thus people still heavily favor them in the meta.
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The identifier wouldn't work because its supposed to activate at a limbo point. Legion has a Deck-building Identifier, all other cards have in-game identifiers, this card has neither of those. The identifier is really an OP search ability that is supposed to trigger before the start of the game which in every other game I've played it was called cheating.
Just because it doesn't exist in other games doesn't mean it's cheating. It's a unique mechanic to solve a specific issue.
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Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David, MLAMG are all meta and discard an evil card, including Wastefulness.
Edict and Bravery only target ECs with their discard. Their negate can target any evil card, but that would be useless against an evil Dom.
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People look at drawing and searching as flaws. Frankly that's being ignorant. Drawing and searching reduce the luck in the game. That's a fact.
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Samuel's Edict, Bravery of David, MLAMG are all meta and discard an evil card, including Wastefulness.
Edict and Bravery only target ECs with their discard. Their negate can target any evil card, but that would be useless against an evil Dom.
Whoops...
I still say this card is fairly easily counterable with just a few adjustments. For the most part, people aren't going to include counter-counter techs (i.e. ASA for the sole purpose of discard JT). There are cards that discard evil cards, in which case it's totally useless after that; there are cards that protect your deck, in which case they can try to get rid of those; and there are cards that don't draw, in which case it isn't a problem. It effecting both players is huge too. They aren't drawing, why do you need to? And you can draw, but then you have to discard some cards.
The only problem is potentially the identifier. Without it though, it wouldn't be as great of a card and certainly not as much of a speed killer, since you can still outrun it.
People look at drawing and searching as flaws. Frankly that's being ignorant. Drawing and searching reduce the luck in the game. That's a fact.
The problem is that the meta has become so focused around drawing, all it is is luck. Speed vs. Speed is a coinflip when both are piloted by good players, and whoever gets the better draw will win.
It's also not so much speed that's the problem, but the offensive heavy meta.
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People look at drawing and searching as flaws. Frankly that's being ignorant. Drawing and searching reduce the luck in the game. That's a fact.
I have to slightly disagree . . draw and search reduces luck now bc its the best way to win.
If you create this dom drawing and search may be a good way to win but not the only way to win.
I see that your saying you will get to your deck less quickly, however if you have to draw 20 cards before you get to your power is your deck really that good in the first place?
just food for thought
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I agree with the offensive heavy part. The only way to actually legitmately fix this meta is to buff defense to point of overpowered cards otherwise the game will only continue in the path its on. This card wouldn't fix the issue. Drawing/search is not the problem. Overpowered offense is.
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I agree with the offensive heavy part. The only way to actually legitmately fix this meta is to buff defense to point of overpowered cards otherwise the game will only continue in the path its on. This card wouldn't fix the issue. Drawing/search is not the problem. Overpowered offense is.
Tons of drawing doesn't help the overpowered offense problem. If you force offenses to slow down, that allows your defense time to set up and hopefully make blocks.
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IMO, this is just a supped up Abom that attacks deck instead of territory. It can be gotten rid of, but it also can be used to troll others if built around like Abom. Overall, I don't like it. At least with Abom, you have to work to get it put in place...this is just an easy grab to suit your own playing style.
Someone asked earlier (I think Lambo): what forced draw cards are there...my answer: try most of the gold heroes. Remember there is a strategy that was built around forcing your opponent to draw. In fact, a CtB with Drawing ECs could kill your opponent as well.
Overall, this card could be easily to troll others. Few people (if anyone) enjoys getting trolled. It is for that reason that I don't like it.
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IMO, this is just a supped up Abom that attacks deck instead of territory. It can be gotten rid of, but it also can be used to troll others if built around like Abom. Overall, I don't like it. At least with Abom, you have to work to get it put in place...this is just an easy grab to suit your own playing style.
Someone asked earlier (I think Lambo): what forced draw cards are there...my answer: try most of the gold heroes. Remember there is a strategy that was built around forcing your opponent to draw. In fact, a CtB with Drawing ECs could kill your opponent as well.
Overall, this card could be easily to troll others. Few people (if anyone) enjoys getting trolled. It is for that reason that I don't like it.
I worded this specifically so you can't use it like ABOM.
Place in a territory: Every time a player uses a drawing ability on a card they own, discard an equal number of cards from the top of their deck. Lost souls are put in play instead.
So, the only way you can force a discard is if THEY put down a drawing character and you force them to use it.
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IMO, this is just a supped up Abom that attacks deck instead of territory. It can be gotten rid of, but it also can be used to troll others if built around like Abom. Overall, I don't like it. At least with Abom, you have to work to get it put in place...this is just an easy grab to suit your own playing style.
Someone asked earlier (I think Lambo): what forced draw cards are there...my answer: try most of the gold heroes. Remember there is a strategy that was built around forcing your opponent to draw. In fact, a CtB with Drawing ECs could kill your opponent as well.
Overall, this card could be easily to troll others. Few people (if anyone) enjoys getting trolled. It is for that reason that I don't like it.
I worded this specifically so you can't use it like ABOM.
Place in a territory: Every time a player uses a drawing ability on a card they own, discard an equal number of cards from the top of their deck. Lost souls are put in play instead.
So, the only way you can force a discard is if THEY put down a drawing character and you force them to use it.
k, apparently I missed that wording on the card.
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Bottom line: I think it's a good counter for drawing. Something needs to be done, otherwise we might as well change the name of the game to Pictionary.
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Bottom line: I think it's a good counter for drawing. Something needs to be done, otherwise we might as well change the name of the game to Pictionary.
OK, that brought my old thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/off-topic/prof%27s-favorite-forum-quotes/msg494136/#msg494136) out of retirement :)
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If everyone is really united against speed, why do we still not have a decent deck-out rule ;) That's more comprehensive and affects all games. Wanna play speed? Well, if you're out of cards and your opponent has a deck left, you cannot rescue (been proposed before, got some support). Forced draws would do damage, but only significantly so if you also play speed. Note that this affects both drawing and searching to speed through your deck, so it actually addresses the entire problem. The less cards, the closer you get to the penalty for deck-out.
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Also, a side note KChief, if your area is still seeing Disciples played, then they are behind in the meta. FF2 and RoA2 have them an insane amount of damage and made them less playable because of the damage they took (especially since they can lose Boat and so many CBN's now)...
So your assertion is just because the new set sees counters to Disciples this somehow makes them 'unplayable' now? That couldn't be further from the truth. You seem to be under the impression that somehow Boat is the lynchpin of the deck, which it isn't. It isn't like the deck falls apart without Boat. Darius' Decree and Rain Becomes Dust are still far better counters that still see play in the meta more than anything else pushed out of FF2/RoA2. Aside from Covenant with Death possibly, but then you're putting yourself in the exact same camp as Wastefulness: your deck must be built and specifically tailored around the card itself to take advantage of it.
Again, I just can't get behind the line of thinking that just because counters are being printed every expansion this somehow equates to the meta shifting drastically. It isn't, the same exact stuff plus the new flavor of the year (Danny and fwiends this year) still top Nats every single year. TGT was printed how long ago, and it's received how many counters since then? Would you argue TGT players are also 'behind the meta' as well? ::) As ChristianSoldier said, the meta are the decks that produce results. That's how meta's are defined...by what's good, what's working, what produces positive results consistently every time, what everyone is using because of that. TGT, Di, and FbtnB are still very consistent decks and quite capable of easily topping despite being older archetypes, thus people still heavily favor them in the meta.
It's not that there are now counters (there were back in Disciples), it's that the FF2 and RoA2 counters are extremely easy to pull off and a lot were made to damage Disciples. Gardensciples took their place, and the problem is that their is just no great counter against it. And I know quite well that Boat wasn't the top card in a Disciples deck, but by getting rid of Boat, you damage the deck, not destroy but damage. And combining the new cards with old ones like HHI, it crushed Disciples. That's why most players don't run Disciples. Remember that the meta is what is generally played out there, not the top decks at Nats or even what appeared at Nats or even what's in your area. I run a Deck that's nowhere near meta, but I still can run the meta down fairly badly. (Given, I need to test my Deck more against "The Deck" but I've been able to run with most other decks fairly easily) FbtnB isn't nessessarily meta, but neither is Disciples. Gardensciples, Sam/Red, Sam/Purple, Isaiah, Daniel dudes, and a few other Decks are the main meta.
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If everyone is really united against speed, why do we still not have a decent deck-out rule ;) That's more comprehensive and affects all games. Wanna play speed? Well, if you're out of cards and your opponent has a deck left, you cannot rescue (been proposed before, got some support). Forced draws would do damage, but only significantly so if you also play speed. Note that this affects both drawing and searching to speed through your deck, so it actually addresses the entire problem. The less cards, the closer you get to the penalty for deck-out.
This isn't a bad idea either.
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It's not that there are now counters (there were back in Disciples), it's that the FF2 and RoA2 counters are extremely easy to pull off and a lot were made to damage Disciples.
First of all, define 'extremely easy'. Second, what are these counters you speak of?
Gardensciples took their place, and the problem is that their is just no great counter against it.
There has never been a great counter to TGT. Same with TGT/Teal. Same with TGT/Gold. Same with TGT/Red. The inclusion of Disciples have little to do with it.
And I know quite well that Boat wasn't the top card in a Disciples deck, but by getting rid of Boat, you damage the deck, not destroy but damage.
It only damages the deck if 1) You had a boat full of Disciples and no way to recur them or 2) You're playing against a site-lock and have no other means for access. The deck in no way relies on Boat all that much, and getting rid of it is just the same as Boat coming up late game. It's good, but certainly not a necessity for the archetype to win.
And combining the new cards with old ones like HHI, it crushed Disciples.
The meta doesn't run any of those counters. Disciples doesn't care.
Remember that the meta is what is generally played out there, not the top decks at Nats or even what appeared at Nats or even what's in your area.
I've already explained to you what the meta is. It is the culmination of what the majority of everyone is playing. Why are the majority playing those decks? Because they're either 1) Top tier or 2) Flavor of the year. The decks that top Nats will almost always be nothing but meta. Of course you have your very few rogue decks that top Nats, but that is exactly why they are able to top: they're not meta and no one expects to see them, thus no one prepares for them.
FbtnB isn't nessessarily meta.
Wrong. It is a known truth that anytime a deck wins the last Nats (and even to a degree rogue decks that top) many players will try to mimic the success that it had.
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If everyone is really united against speed, why do we still not have a decent deck-out rule ;)
Because NOT everyone is really united against speed. We actually tried an anti-deckout rule in ROOT this month, and many people dropped out of the tourney just because they weren't willing to even give it a try. It would have been nice to get more feedback on the idea, but the little bit of feedback so far is that it has made for some interesting games, and some people have already come up with some creative ways to get around the rule :)
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Honestly I think the deck out rule is easily over come.
Play any 2 Multi color magicians (to avoid AotL) and invoking terror and place your own hero beneath deck and bingo you can rescue attempt
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I know this card has been left alone for a little while, but I thought of something I wanted to remark on... The big problem with this card will be 154 card decks, like Gates of Samaria decks. If a 154 card deck can guarantee that this card is top-decked, I think that would be bad for the game. I love that it is a counter to speed that has actual punch (since it guarantees to be drawn in time to matter), but I'm scared of what the unintended consequences of it might be.
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I know this card has been left alone for a little while, but I thought of something I wanted to remark on... The big problem with this card will be 154 card decks, like Gates of Samaria decks. If a 154 card deck can guarantee that this card is top-decked, I think that would be bad for the game. I love that it is a counter to speed that has actual punch (since it guarantees to be drawn in time to matter), but I'm scared of what the unintended consequences of it might be.
If people start playing 154 carders in T1 for this card, that would be a more than welcome change.
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I know this card has been left alone for a little while, but I thought of something I wanted to remark on... The big problem with this card will be 154 card decks, like Gates of Samaria decks. If a 154 card deck can guarantee that this card is top-decked, I think that would be bad for the game. I love that it is a counter to speed that has actual punch (since it guarantees to be drawn in time to matter), but I'm scared of what the unintended consequences of it might be.
If people start playing 154 carders in T1 for this card, that would be a more than welcome change.
154 card decks are amazing and devastating to a lot of the meta. The problem is that they time-out, and can't win timed tournaments. 154 card decks being used extensively would hurt the game, in the end, though I like the concept of defensive decks being used more often personally.
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I don't think 154s necessarily time out every game. Few people (Prof A and The Hobbit are the exceptions) have tried to pilot a 154 that functions like a 56, and instead focus on long running strategies like GoS or A-Bomb, and are primarily centered around the defense.
I have a 154 that I'm testing on RTS, and it's done really well, generally finishing around an hour. I need to test it IRL still, but I'm hoping it will work.
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The "but what about 154 card decks?" argument doesn't really work. After a few rounds, all the 154 card decks will have ties and timeout wins (and even losses since that's 154 cards to draw wrong with) keeping them out of contention.
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The "but what about 154 card decks?" argument doesn't really work. After a few rounds, all the 154 card decks will have ties and timeout wins (and even losses since that's 154 cards to draw wrong with) keeping them out of contention.
Not only that, but the 154 card decks that are successful are the ones that use gobs and gobs of drawing anyway. They are very susceptible to bad draws (i.e. 4 Samarias and 4 enhancements on the first turn--against a meta where everyone uses at least 2-4 Green Heroes) so often the only way to combat that is Lavers/AutOs/drawing enhancements/etc. in triplicate. Now the cost of discarding an equal number of cards might seem less potent with a 154 card deck, but when there are certain cards that those types of deck absolutely need (Gates of Samaria, etc.) risking discarding that many cards can still be dangerous.
I'd bet this card would deter 154 card decks more than anything; I know I would never build a 154 card deck with it.
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I do not like the identifier. But I still think that this card should be made, This would be a great addition to redemption.