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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 01:11:39 AM

Title: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 01:11:39 AM
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi692.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv289%2Fbriangabe%2FMore%2520Boarderless%2520Cards%2FDavid-1.png&hash=01a9f73634de2ad38e0f5774631a2c7a38f4d2b1)

I don't know that Redemption will ever print a 4 color Hero, but if we do, David is the most likely candidate. I tried to tie a part of his ability to each of his attributes.

Red Warrior - Discard a Philistine. (He killed many, not just Goliath)
Purple Royalty - Ignore evil royalty. (Other kings were not able to oppose him)
White Musician - Hold David's Harp and negate demons when it's active. (He played the harp to ease Saul's torment)
Green Prophet - Restrict N.T. Enhancements. (He lived and prophesied during the O.T., this also keeps Hidden Treasures interaction in check)

Leaders typically band to their followers so he's able to band to David's Mighty Men. I'm sure that's OP in addition to everything else.

This is the best high quality piece of art I could find. I'm not entirely happy with it though.

Borderless because it looks better.

4/23 - Replaced the original with a modified version based on some of the ideas presented in the discussion. I also created this "flip" version of David based on player ideas and concerns about the original being over powered.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi692.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv289%2Fbriangabe%2FOther%2FDavid_flip_border.png&hash=c67c1a67562dc549cb15e32516de96af0e270149)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 01:37:29 AM
That image doesn't work. Is it in a private folder?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 09:14:59 AM
That image doesn't work. Is it in a private folder?

Thank you, Chris. Apparently I missed the warning that renaming the album would break all links.  ;)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minion of Jesus on April 21, 2012, 09:20:39 AM
He is definitely OP, but then again, so was David.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: The M on April 21, 2012, 09:23:23 AM
He will be added to the FBTN banding chain, kill many defenses, and can use hidden treasures.
No me gusta.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 21, 2012, 11:41:04 AM
I really like him, and i don't think hes that overly OP.  yea hes good, but far from invincible.  he doesn't make his big numbers make him vulnerable to kill cards and his ability is fully negate-able.  i love him holding davids harp, it gets a good old card some more play and sets up a cool combo (david gets discarded, puts himself and davids harp on top of deck, but then you only get to draw 1 new card next turn so its balanced)  it would be interesting to see what kind of decks he would fit into, he would be good in sam decks, but could fit into almost any deck other that blue of NT themes.  to make him less powerful, maybe make him negate fortresses so that obadiahs cave, davids throne, and musicians chambers dont help him
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 21, 2012, 12:24:10 PM
Step 1: Activate Peter's curse and place on David

Step 2: Activate Hidden treasures

Step 3: Prophet  8) see what I did there?


P.S.

Chronic Chris, what's with the username change?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 21, 2012, 12:28:13 PM
Helps out Sam decks by allowing them to do another draw 2 off sam not to mention he is I Samuel so Sam can band to him. Would prefer if a card was made for each one like I believe Pol did
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 12:34:07 PM
I don't like Pol's idea of printing four Davids, however, this David definitely needs to be stripped down. I would take out the ability to hold David's Harp and make him negate play abilities (without making him CBN [which is overpowered], AoCp abuse with HT would be ridiculous).

Edit: Wings of Music, I am trying to get away from that online tag, and I figure enough people know me in real life here that I can just use my real name.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 21, 2012, 12:57:22 PM
I don't like Pol's idea of printing four Davids, however, this David definitely needs to be stripped down. I would take out the ability to hold David's Harp and make him negate play abilities (without making him CBN [which is overpowered], AoCp abuse with HT would be ridiculous).

I'm not sure what is worse negate play abilities CBN or allowing for play-first combos after David is negated.  As noted in my above post, if you don't make David CBN there would still be easy ways to make AoCp playable on him. (Peter's curse, Tower of Thebez, provisions + FBTN character etc.)   

Edit: Wings of Music, I am trying to get away from that online tag, and I figure enough people know me in real life here that I can just use my real name.

Fair enough. 
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 21, 2012, 01:09:13 PM
Extremely OP. Any four-color David will by necessity be OP unless he's loaded up with CBN SA's that hurt him.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 01:14:54 PM
Extremely OP. Any four-color David will by necessity be OP unless he's loaded up with CBN SA's that hurt him.

Not necessarily, especially since it would be perfectly possible to build a mini-theme around him. Reprint a few heroes that need to be reprinted (Bathsheba, King Saul, Jonathan, etc). My problem with printing David as four heroes is that David was not four people.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 21, 2012, 01:30:18 PM
That's a rather flimsy reason. King Saul isn't two people and we have two of him.

David is the most famous King in the Bible, the most famous Musician in the Bible, the most famous Warrior in the Bible, and pretty much only his prophetic aspect is little-known. To try to squeeze all three of these aspects into one card, and with room left over for prophecy is pretty impossible without either making the card OP or failing to do justice.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 01:34:27 PM
That's a rather flimsy reason. King Saul isn't two people and we have two of him.

The last King Saul was printed in Kings, which was a long time ago. At this point, when we've worked so hard to establish accurate abilities and identifiers, having four of one guy seems a bit of a detriment to that goal of organization and accuracy.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 21, 2012, 01:36:58 PM
how about this:

David:
discard a philistine. ignore evil royalty. negate fortresses, play abilities,  and restrict players from using NT enhancements (CBN).  if davids harp is in play, negate demons.  may band to a OT warrior-class hero.

this way all the powerful fortresses that help him and HT and makes that part of the ability CBN but the rest can be negated.  having him band to warrior-class instead of people with the reference makes it so he doesnt help sam decks too much, which isnt needed
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 01:46:07 PM
We already have a way to play AoCp pre-block with ET. If you want to go to the extra effort to negate David's restrict ability so you can use Hidden Treasures to play AoCp I don't find that OP.

Besides AoCp, the only other play first combo I really want us to avoid is Samson's Sacrifice. Nothing else I've seen is as devastating or as easy to pull off as those 2.

The two things that would scare me about printing this card without thorough testing are the restrict ability and the band ability. The restrict could potentially shut down an entire NT based defense. The band ability by itself isn't OP, but in combination with the other abilities and the FBTNb chain it's probably over the top.

I think holding David's Harp is a clever way to make use of a rarely played Artifact and help David survive battles (which he did in real life).  I borrowed the idea from someone else's post on this forum. Sorry that I don't remember who, but props to you. You know who you are. :)

Sepjazz - we never CBN part of an ability. It's the whole thing or not at all.

I like Pol's idea of 4 Davids, but I like one 4 color David better myself.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 21, 2012, 01:50:17 PM
@Chonic

Ignore evil royalty is already a super-powerful ability, but should probably be on David for his royalty. Doing something really bad to demons is pretty much a must, but then it's already at the very edge of being OP. He would need to do something to not abuse HT, but either negating play abilities or restricting N.T. enhancements pushes him over the edge. Add four brigades into the mix, 3 of which are already combined in a 3-brigade card, as well as warrior-class and he's crazy OP. Making him I Samuel would simply make it ridiculous, and throwing a banding ability in there for good measure is insanity.

David isn't just some guy, he's a central figure in the Bible, and I just can't see any way to merge all three major aspects plus a minor one with an important brigade into one card.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 03:45:37 PM
Pol, we've discussed this before and I think it comes to agreeing to disagree. I actually think the best way to do it is to have a Saul/Paul situation, where he starts as David, then after winning a battle, you can convert him to King David. Something like this (I didn't put much thought into the abilities):

David
Red/White 10/3 WC Hero
Search deck for Jonathan or a card mentioning David in the title or reference. You may add it to battle. When this character wins a battle, you may convert him to...

King David
Purple/White 10/10 WC Hero
Ignore evil royalty. Search deck or discard pile for a card referring to music and add to hand to draw 2.

We already have a way to play AoCp pre-block with ET. If you want to go to the extra effort to negate David's restrict ability so you can use Hidden Treasures to play AoCp I don't find that OP.

The problem isn't just AoCp, it's AoCp on top of everything he can play pre-block. AoCp is just kind of the icing on the cake in that sense, but I realize now that my original suggestion doesn't make any difference - his ability can still be negated. Even so, I don't think his restricting NT enhancements works on anything but a gameplay level. It's probably necessary, but at least with Daniel's restriction of NT enhancements, it sort of makes sense in an ironic way since Daniel is full of prophesying about the end times; David doesn't have quite that same reasoning behind it.

Quote
The two things that would scare me about printing this card without thorough testing are the restrict ability and the band ability. The restrict could potentially shut down an entire NT based defense. The band ability by itself isn't OP, but in combination with the other abilities and the FBTNb chain it's probably over the top.

Daniel does something pretty similar to this, but not quite as powerful. That said, not many evil NT enhancements are CBN, so it shouldn't be too different than Daniel's ability, especially since Daniel also negates evil characters, which shuts down a NT defense way more than David's ability would. Maybe Pharisees, but that sort of makes sense.

Quote
Sepjazz - we never CBN part of an ability. It's the whole thing or not at all.

Not true. There's at least one enhancement with part of the ability CBN and the rest of it can be negated. The rules currently allow for it, and I see no reason not to have it, especially since cards like Joseph have it indirectly with the recent rule change there.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 21, 2012, 04:16:42 PM
I think that if they were to make this card they would have to put it in a set with OP EC's, or ells you would just put this card in your deck and win.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 04:21:33 PM
I think that if they sere to make this card they would have to put it in a set with OP EC's, or els you would just put this card in your deck and win.

Not true at all. The card is overpowered, yes, but nothing that can't be handled easily. Even just a CM takes him out. It's the banding that's the problem, for the most part.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Bryon on April 21, 2012, 06:04:51 PM
The only minor change I'd suggest is the restrict ability.  I'd rather not limit what type of EEs opponent can play.  It shuts down entire N.T. defenses.

Change the third sentence to "You are restricted from playing N.T. enhancements." and it might be in a good place to start testing.

Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 21, 2012, 06:18:36 PM
there is no reason to not make only part of an ability CBN, joseph is like that, joshua the HP is like that.  what would we really be worried about david playing with HT?  spiritual warfare, AoCp, peace treaty, and what else?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: The Schaefer on April 21, 2012, 06:28:54 PM
what if it was like this


David
11/11 WC Red/Green/Purple/ White
Cannot not play an enhancement until blocked or unless another hero is in battle. Discard a Philistine. May band to an OT Warrior Class Brigade hero . If Davids Harp is active negate special abilities on Demons. Ignore Evil Royalty. Restrict Players from playing NT Enhancements. CBN.
Identifier Can hold Davids harp.

If you want to try to eliminate the FBTNB chain just a bit you could make it a band to an OT Warrior Class Red brigade hero to make it a bit harder to pull off. If you dont like Ignore you could change it to Protected from Enhancements used by Evil Royalty or something to that effect. As for the Restrict NT Enhancements who knows maybe some sort of search ability or something like (Reveal the top 3 of draw pile. You may add to hand one Card related to Davids Lineage to hand or battle.) Could make just the Cannot play an enhancement part CBN if you had an problem with CBN. Just my thoughts to try and solve some issues. Like the idea though.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: The Schaefer on April 21, 2012, 06:30:20 PM
Ha ha just realized i put WC brigade instead of just WC. lol
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: CJSports on April 21, 2012, 07:23:10 PM
Why is it the three times I suggest a 4 color brigade King David I get slapped around and it's with a much worse ability. No offense meant to Gabe. I really like the art. Very OP but I like it anyway.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 08:35:43 PM
I had an idea to limit the Hidden Treasures interaction.  Instead of the restrict ability we could try something like this, "Negate Artifacts unless the owner controls a character with the same book in the reference". That means Hidden Treasures is negated unless you happen to be using Obadiah. It also keeps a good number of other Artifacts from working out of theme, which I happen to like. But David's Harp (and David's Staff if it gets reprinted as an Artifact...) still works.

P.S. -I'll probably toy with the flip version of David sometime soon.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 21, 2012, 08:37:49 PM
Here's a thought- why does David need to be reprinted in green at all? I recognize he's a prophet, but that's far from the biggest thing he did, and from a gameplay prospective, it may just be simpler for everyone to ignore the green entirely. Wasn't that considered with Joseph when looking at Creation of the World?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 21, 2012, 08:42:51 PM
Sure, we could just leave green out. But David was responsible for a number of prophecies about the Christ. Since Jesus is the central theme of the Bible I don't really consider David's role as a prophet to be minor or insignificant.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master Q on April 21, 2012, 09:14:21 PM
I think if you could only use one of those abilities per battle he would be much more balanced. Looks pretty cool though. :)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Asahel24601 on April 21, 2012, 09:32:45 PM
Is AOCP considered a nt enhancement even though it doesn't have a reference?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 22, 2012, 10:03:46 AM
yes it is, all enhancements are either NT or OT, even if they don't have a reference.

I think restricting NT enhancements would and having that part of the ability be negateable would be enough to counter HT abuse.  having it be negateable allows NT offenses a way to get around it (although it would be something they have to plan to counter, but there are plenty of ways to counter it if is negateable) but still stops most of the big bad enhancements David would use with HT and it fits Biblically enough with him being a prophet that it doesn't completely feel like it was thrown in there for gameplay purposes.  I still stick by the ability I posted earlier with a small adjustment:

David:
(identifiers: all of David's identifiers, holds Davids Harp)
discard a philistine. ignore evil royalty. negate fortresses. restrict players from using NT enhancements.  if davids harp is in play, negate demons.  may band to a OT warrior-class hero. return to territory if blocked by a female

I like this ability because it makes him less OP by negating the fortresses that help him, not allowing him to use NT enhancements, and his ability is fully negateable.  returning to territory if blocked by a female comes from the whole Bathsheba thing.  it makes him even less OP and fits Biblically.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Josh on April 22, 2012, 10:40:26 AM
David:
(identifiers: all of David's identifiers, holds Davids Harp)
discard a philistine. ignore evil royalty. negate fortresses. restrict players from using NT enhancements.  if davids harp is in play, negate demons.  may band to a OT warrior-class hero. return to territory if blocked by a female

I like this ability because it makes him less OP by negating the fortresses that help him, not allowing him to use NT enhancements, and his ability is fully negateable.  returning to territory if blocked by a female comes from the whole Bathsheba thing.  it makes him even less OP and fits Biblically.

I'm not sure that returning David to territory if blocked by a female fits the Biblical story well.  The story of David's sin with Bathsheba starts with "In the spring, when the kings usually go out to war..."  The Bible makes an effort to point out that normally, King David would have gone out to war ("into battle").  David's sin seemed to, in part, stem from not going to battle.  If he's already in battle, I don't think that simply putting a female EC in battle should return him.  He made one massive sin with one woman, but he repented, and in the end he was still called "a man after God's own heart".  If anyone should be affected by female ECs, it is Solomon, because they actually turned his heart from God (or at least to foreign gods).
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Jmbeers on April 22, 2012, 10:41:22 AM
As a whole I actually like this David, not only is he negate able but Household Idols, Unholy Writ, Magic Charms, Christian Maryter, Grapes of Wrath, The Punisher lost soul, and almost any good Deffense has play first abilities plus CBN battle winners (Such as Women of Thebez, Neglesh, King Ahab and Horses in every birgade all stop David.

And in terms of fearing preblock ignore, insted of the NT thing you could say Restrice players from playing enhancements when no opposing character is in battle. (like the Covenent with death, which also stops David!!
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Josh on April 22, 2012, 10:52:17 AM
And in terms of fearing preblock ignore, insted of the NT thing you could say Restrice players from playing enhancements when no opposing character is in battle. (like the Covenent with death, which also stops David!!

Plus one for this idea, it is brilliant.

"Restrict players from playing NT enhancements unless opposed."
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 22, 2012, 05:39:27 PM
I think that all the abilities he has right now are certainly fitting, but even David himself didn't do all of them at once. Could he not be the first ever "Choose" character? Goliath debuted Taunt, it seems only fitting that the one smiting him could also introduce something new to Redemption.

King David
Red/White/Purple/Green 11/11 Hero, WC
-King of Israel, Musician, Prophet, Holds David's Harp-
"If David's Harp is active, negate demons. You are restricted from playing NT enhancements. Choose one - Discard a Philistine; OR ignore evil royalty; OR band to a 1 Chronicles or II Samuel Hero."
~I Samuel 16:13

I figured choosing one would be the most balanced, but I could see choosing 2 as well.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 22, 2012, 07:32:20 PM
i like the choose ability, but i don't think he would be OP to have all the abilities at once.  i dont like david only restricting only himself from playing an NT enhancements, it doesn't really fit Biblically
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 22, 2012, 09:40:48 PM
The choose one route may bring him out of the realm of broken, although I still argue he'd be OP.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Josh on April 22, 2012, 09:53:46 PM
The choose one route may bring him out of the realm of broken, although I still argue he'd be OP.

Maybe you could have another contest like you did last year for creating cards (Potter's Field, etc).  This time, everyone has to submit 4 Davids - one for each brigade.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Alex_Olijar on April 23, 2012, 01:29:17 AM
There's one more card we can check off the list of being reprinted next set at least.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: lp670sv on April 23, 2012, 01:30:50 AM
Print cards that are balanced game play wise but not 100% biblical accurate, players rage.
Suggest print card that is 100% biblical accurate, but OP game play wise. players rage.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 23, 2012, 02:07:38 AM
I modified the original post with a change to the restrict ability.

As some have suggested, I also added to the original post, a new "flip" version of David/King David that enters play as David and becomes King David.

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi692.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv289%2Fbriangabe%2FOther%2FDavid_flip_border.png&hash=c67c1a67562dc549cb15e32516de96af0e270149)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master KChief on April 23, 2012, 04:26:24 AM
The flip version is smexy.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 23, 2012, 12:12:30 PM
Looks pretty much amazing. I generally like it, but it still helps Sam decks out way too much.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 23, 2012, 01:42:41 PM
I see David has joined Hur in the random foot club. :P
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 23, 2012, 01:46:43 PM
I see David has joined Hur in the random foot club. :P

The foot on Hur's artwork actually belongs to Moses, not Hur...  ::)

I have to say that I love this flip version, it's super awesome.  The only thing that bugs me is that it's perfect for a Sam deck, and I'm not sure I like helping out Sam even more...
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 23, 2012, 02:02:27 PM
I see David has joined Hur in the random foot club. :P

The foot on Hur's artwork actually belongs to Moses, not Hur...  ::)

I have to say that I love this flip version, it's super awesome.  The only thing that bugs me is that it's perfect for a Sam deck, and I'm not sure I like helping out Sam even more...

It isn't quite perfect for sam, it is very close though. It is not "PERFECT" for sam because king david is 2 samuel, And only bands to 2 Samuel, Sam is 1Samuel and bands to only 1 samuel.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Red Wing on April 23, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
I see David has joined Hur in the random foot club. :P

The foot on Hur's artwork actually belongs to Moses, not Hur...  ::)

I have to say that I love this flip version, it's super awesome.  The only thing that bugs me is that it's perfect for a Sam deck, and I'm not sure I like helping out Sam even more...

It isn't quite perfect for sam, it is very close though. It is not "PERFECT" for sam because king david is 2 samuel, And only bands to 2 Samuel, Sam is 1Samuel and bands to only 1 samuel.
But it would give Sam another version of David to search for and draw 2 off of.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 23, 2012, 02:06:58 PM
What Red Wing Said.

Additionally, there are plenty of awesome ways to get Dave into battle without having Sam banding to him directly.  The other abilities are awesome too, like negating KoT and stopping Goliath cold. 
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Red Wing on April 23, 2012, 02:10:17 PM
Additionally, there are plenty of awesome ways to get Dave into battle without having Sam banding to him directly.  The other abilities are awesome too, like negating KoT and stopping Goliath cold. 
And more FBTNB combos.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 23, 2012, 02:12:49 PM
Actually, if this card was printed, it would have to replace red David in current Sam decks (they share the same name and same brigade so they'd be considered the same card), so you wouldn't get an extra out of it, just one with more variety.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 23, 2012, 02:14:02 PM
You could have this David and Green David in the same deck.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 23, 2012, 02:17:12 PM
You can already have red and green David in the same deck (I believe), so this doesn't add anything to that, just changes what one of those two is.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 23, 2012, 02:18:58 PM
Yeah but having this David + Green David would be better than Red + Green, so there is still improvement to Sam decks. 
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 23, 2012, 02:27:15 PM
Yeah but having this David + Green David would be better than Red + Green, so there is still improvement to Sam decks.

This parts true ::)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 23, 2012, 02:28:35 PM
But it would give Sam another version of David to search for and draw 2 off of.

That was the point I was arguing against. I never said it doesn't help Sam decks (because it does), I was simply pointing out that it doesn't add to the number of Davids a Sam deck can already search/draw from.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Jmbeers on April 23, 2012, 03:19:10 PM
Again I'm saying forget the NT restriction and do a Covinent With Death like play restriction that stays active in territory. This takes care of the problems created by Hidden Treasures and the play restriction hurts Sammy.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 23, 2012, 03:27:27 PM
Apparently in different parts of the country it's been ruled differently as to whether or not Samuel can search for David/Saul (and draw 2) if a copy is already in play. The elders have been discussing this and you can expect an official ruling soon, probably within a week. But to my dismay I do not believe you will be allowed to create duplicates with Samuel.

I doubt we'll see a new version of David anytime soon, so there's no immediate scare of boosting Samuel decks. cookie monster is correct though, I intentionally moved the banding ability to King David who has a II Samuel reference so as to not help Samuel/FBTNb.

@ Jmbeers - going forward, when we print characters with abilities that are active in territory, they will probably be territory class. However, if that happens we won't combine warrior and territory class on the same character.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Jmbeers on April 23, 2012, 03:37:57 PM
I was thinking of something that would say something like "while in play" so it would activate once after entering entering battle. (Thinking of and Esther)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Korunks on April 23, 2012, 04:20:11 PM
Apparently in different parts of the country it's been ruled differently as to whether or not Samuel can search for David/Saul (and draw 2) if a copy is already in play. The elders have been discussing this and you can expect an official ruling soon, probably within a week. But to my dismay I do not believe you will be allowed to create duplicates with Samuel.

I hope you guys nail down the differences between that potential ruling and The standing ruling on unholy writ being able to discard duplicates.  Several people will struggle with why one is allowed and the other is not.  You may have already thought of it, but just a heads up.


 I actually really like all versions of the 4 color David.  I just really want a David that is useful/awesome pretty much since I started playing years ago.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 23, 2012, 06:17:39 PM
 +1
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Bryon on April 23, 2012, 09:56:01 PM
I really like the flip character!

2 requests:

1) change the King David art.  I've never been a fan of it, since I know the artist intended for it to show Solomon sinning.  :(
2) If David has to win in battle before becoming "King David," then you might as well let King David keep white, since he remained a musician.  He could keep red, too, but it might not be as needed.  :)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master KChief on April 23, 2012, 10:15:18 PM
I think keeping the colors split will keep it from being abused with Hidden Treasures. It also reflects what kind of character was more dominant during his lifetime. It's pretty balanced IMO.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 27, 2012, 02:17:37 PM
Does anybody know what the next expansion will be? ::)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Nameless on April 27, 2012, 02:22:17 PM
Starter decks.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 27, 2012, 02:42:14 PM
Starter decks.
Where's the proof that it will be a starter deck?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 27, 2012, 02:43:18 PM
Starter decks.
Where's the proof that it will be a starter deck?

Multiple statements by multiple Elders have confirmed it's starter decks. There is literally zero doubt.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 03:44:48 PM
I hope it will at least be useful this time.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 27, 2012, 03:47:30 PM
I hope it will at least be useful this time.

There are still a handful of cards from the G&H decks that are well-used. Considering we don't many cards from more current sets like FooF and RoA, that's not bad.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 03:58:24 PM
Yea, I'm just looking generally, The Egyptian stuff and the Disciple stuff seemed like most of the best stuff in there. But for groups that don't have access to the newer cards, its quite good.
I'd suggest to check your nearest Family Christian Bookstore if you need newer cards for your playgroup. They usually sell Redemption cards and the Coupons always work on them because they aren't popular enough to go on sale (mostly because people don't know that they sell Redemption cards) I have seen quite a few packs, TexP, Di, and Tins (and sometimes Starter Decks).
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on April 27, 2012, 09:49:56 PM
do we know anything about the starter decks other than the fact that they are starter decks?  any spoilers?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: CJSports on April 27, 2012, 09:54:38 PM
Spoiler (hover to show)

It's back!!!
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 10:17:22 PM
Me: Alvin, ur starting to sound like R.O.S.E.S. With all that editing...

Alvin: NNNNNOOOOOOOOO!
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 27, 2012, 10:24:56 PM
Hope Philistines will get some boost from the starters, they need some more stuff.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 10:30:13 PM
Need a boost? They have one of the most unkillable combos out there and plenty of nasty Enhancements to boot! I don't think they need a boost. Saducess are the ones that need more of a boost in black because they still are too slow and don't work well at all.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 27, 2012, 10:33:41 PM
Need a boost? They have one of the most unkillable combos out there and plenty of nasty Enhancements to boot! I don't think they need a boost. Saducess are the ones that need more of a boost in black because they still are too slow and don't work well at all.

Both Sadducees and Philistines need a serious boost, though the former is definitely in more of a need of it. Really, all three of the black defenses (Sads, Phils, and Canaanites) need boosts to be good defensive choices.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 10:36:18 PM
I'm not sure why Phillys do. They have a lot of really good cards. Cannanites need a boost because they're new, but Saducees are still lacking even with the Disciples stuff.

Romans, Heretics, Persians, Demons, & Syrians need some good updates.
I'm not even going to start on Hero themes...
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 27, 2012, 10:43:52 PM
Although Sadducees need a boost, they will not likely be in the decks cause they were in the last starters.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 10:46:07 PM
I'd rather see Romans or Heretics or Demons in there anyway.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 27, 2012, 11:00:12 PM
The first two I can see, but don't think they would do demons in a starter deck.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 27, 2012, 11:58:52 PM
All the previous decks have had Demons in them. I actually wouldn't be suprised if there was at least one in there.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 28, 2012, 12:12:00 AM
I'm not sure why Phillys do. They have a lot of really good cards. Cannanites need a boost because they're new, but Saducees are still lacking even with the Disciples stuff.

I'm not of the opinion that Phillies are particularly viable this season. Their problem is that, while they have some strong characters, they are very much lacking in unnegatable battle winners, and they really need a comprehensive protect fortress. Plus, while they have strong characters, pretty much all of the characters either give up initiative very easily, get stomped by the current Samuel-dominated meta, or both. Canaanites need a boost not because they're new, but because they're weak. The new set gave them a great jumping off point, but the best part about them (Tower of Thebez) requires all Canaanite evil characters, and that's not a particularly viable standalone defense, again, in my opinion. Sadducees need help because they are bad, plain and simple. Someone (I believe Prof A) has done some impressive stuff with them in large numbers, but it was always in conjunction with another theme. Frankly, I think black Sadducees should be dissolved as a theme, and they should simply be reprinted in grey to make Pharisees a "Phars & Sads" theme, but that's just my opinion.

Quote
Romans, Heretics, Persians, Demons, & Assyrians need some good updates.

Romans need some solid enhancements and maybe an exclusive weapon or two that can do some damage. If I recall correctly, heretics and magicians have some overlap, so perhaps printing a few heretical magicians would be a good theme. I don't like Persians as a theme because I don't believe brown needs another theme, but it's already half-created, so I guess it's too late for that complaint. Demons need to be handled carefully, lest they become overpowered. Gates of Hell made them into an extremely unique theme, but it would not take much for them to become inadvertently broken. Assyrians don't need any updates right now; they thrive in T2 right now, and they're likely going to thrive in T2 next season as well, unless they receive some brutal counters. They're not that good in T1, but they don't need to be. Again, this is all in my opinion.

I oppose demons in starter decks. I fear that that would be bad for PR, since many soccer moms would not be particularly thrilled to find that little Johnny has been playing with demons and loving it.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Drrek on April 28, 2012, 12:32:54 AM
Canaanites are usable in type II, but for type I, I'd agree they need a boost.  Philisitines need some real good battle winners to be useful.  Saducees, Persians, Romans, and Syrians all need major boosts to be really playable.  I concur that Demons should not be one of the defenses in a starter deck.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 28, 2012, 01:06:33 AM
Sorry, I meant Syrians, I accidentally put Assyrians. I agree Assyrians don't need a boost.
As to Demons in the Deck, They may just put non-Orange Demons in (maybe) or just like a Demon that just bands to a Human. But I'd be pretty sure that if they do put any in, they won't be very (if at all) helpful to the Demon theme.
Romans need some more competent characters too, if they have both of those (and at least a Protect Fort) then they would actually be good.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master KChief on April 28, 2012, 01:10:20 AM
I fear that that would be bad for PR, since many soccer moms would not be particularly thrilled to find that little Johnny has been playing with demons and loving it.

If that were the case, then there is no reason to further hide the fact the game has demons in it by not putting them in starter decks.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 28, 2012, 01:14:27 AM
I fear that that would be bad for PR, since many soccer moms would not be particularly thrilled to find that little Johnny has been playing with demons and loving it.

If that were the case, then there is no reason to further hide the fact the game has demons in it by not putting them in starter decks.

I think it's different here. A lot of parents buy a couple starter decks and maybe a few boosters and call it a day, so there's less likely to be a concentration of demons in a kid's deck, which would likely be more acceptable. At the very least, it would be more acceptable than a demon-based defense with the lynchpin being "The Gates of Hell".
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: lp670sv on April 28, 2012, 01:19:37 AM
The soccer mom is just as likely to be upset that her little whats-his-face is playing with any evil people and loving it though. But he will soon come to the darkside of the stand alone meta defense anyway so no big
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 28, 2012, 01:22:56 AM
The soccer mom is just as likely to be upset that her little whats-his-face is playing with any evil people and loving it though. But he will soon come to the darkside of the stand alone meta defense anyway so no big

I'm not sure that's true. Keep in mind that I'm not just hypothesizing here either; I was raised by a relatively conservative mother with some really conservative friends who raised their children under pretty strict guidelines and rules. I can see a lot of these mothers looking at "Evil characters" as one thing and "demons" as another entirely. There's no basis of proof on either side, but that's why I'm against demons in the new starter decks. I agree with your other point though, Uzzah's not even really evil in the Bible.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: ChristianSoldier on April 28, 2012, 01:35:39 AM
The REG isn't working right now and I don't know about the first edition starter deck, but the second edition had Strong Demon, Locust From the Pit, Evil Armor (not technically a demon, but related.

I can't remember the Third edition, but the 10th Anniversary has Strong Demon, Red Dragon and Locust from the Pit (maybe more I don't remember it's been a long time.

I'm not saying whether it's good or not to include demons, or if they should be put in for game development but it has been done before so it's too late to say "demons shouldn't be in starter decks".
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Drrek on April 28, 2012, 01:38:12 AM
Uzzah's not even really evil in the Bible.

And Am Slave wasn't really evil either, so that's about a third of the meta defense that isn't really evil.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Chris on April 28, 2012, 01:41:42 AM
Yeah, I know that there are demons that are in starter decks already (there's at least Strong Demon and Red Dragon in the G&H decks, maybe more), so that ship has sailed.

And Am Slave wasn't really evil either, so that's about a third of the meta defense that isn't really evil.

We're all Sabbath Breakers these days, so I'm not sure Sabbath Breaker can be counted either. Now we're pretty much left with Gomer, King of Tyrus, and a plan to kill the Jews.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 28, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
Yea, Hitler's... Oops I meant Haman's Plot is evil, KoT is a Demon, and Gomer seemed to go through her rebellious teen years a little late, but turned good afterwards.

3rd had Lying Spirit, Deceiving Spirit, and Unclean Spirit. Personally, my Mom made me swear never to use those cards in my deck. (Namely Lying Spirit)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Wings of Music on April 28, 2012, 09:11:07 AM
Demons shouldn't be in a starter deck in today's Redemption. 

You could get away with one or two before but ever since priests where orange became the demon's brigade it doesn't work. 

Gone are the days of putting in one or two and getting away with it, now if you add any you have to add 3of them, and enhancements to back them up.  There's a lot of moms who would  not like that.

Plus no one from MN would ever buy the starter.
 
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Red Wing on April 28, 2012, 09:16:19 AM
Plus no one from MN would ever buy the starter.
Good, that means more for us. ;)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 28, 2012, 09:25:07 AM
My friend refuses to use magicians and demons in his deck, which I think is kind of stupid. The reason being IT'S JUST A GAME! I use both and don't plan on abandoning my beliefs for a mor satanic cult. So parents should just relax, although there are demons an magicians in the game it is better than Yugioh or Magic, whose art is much darker than Redemption's.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 28, 2012, 10:02:08 AM
Actually, I liked Yugioh too. A lot of the art was awesome!
But I can imagine that they may put some non-Orange Demons in there or at maybe a Beast or 2.
Personally I'm wondering if they will have Dual-brigade cards in the deck this time. That would be cool to see.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 28, 2012, 10:52:14 AM
You guys should really take this to it's own thread since you've hijacked like half of Gabe's already, lol.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Arrthoa on April 28, 2012, 11:01:39 AM
I liked the art on Yugioh too, but when it comes to selling a christian card game you can't have art like that. Just look at how conservative some of these parents are ( not that it is wrong) but just loosen up some.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master KChief on April 28, 2012, 12:08:15 PM
The Yugioh art was good before, but now its phenomenal. I suppose you can afford awesome artists when you're the #1 selling card game in the world. :D
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 28, 2012, 12:09:36 PM
MtG art > YGO art. Steve Argyle is my favorite artist ever.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Jmbeers on April 28, 2012, 12:27:55 PM
You guys should really take this to it's own thread since you've hijacked like half of Gabe's already, lol.
MtG art > YGO art. Steve Argyle is my favorite artist ever.

They lured you in  ::)

Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: cookie monster on April 28, 2012, 12:39:13 PM
MtG art > YGO art. Steve Argyle is my favorite artist ever.

I did not know we had so many yugioh players in redemption :o What game do you guys like better?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Jmbeers on April 28, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
Not really the questions you should be asking around here.

You are on a Redemption fourm.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Master KChief on April 28, 2012, 12:58:07 PM
MtG art > YGO art. Steve Argyle is my favorite artist ever.

I think it depends on what kind of art style you like. MtG has very talented artists (used to be a huge fan of Ron Spencer, not sure if he still does art) that seems more 'technical' per se, but I really like the psuedo-anime-style artwork Yugioh has.
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: Gabe on April 28, 2012, 01:53:07 PM
Not to derail the current rabbit trail, but to I'd like to veer back to the first off topic topic...

Spoiler (hover to show)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 28, 2012, 02:12:53 PM
Yep.

The art wasnt bad, I actually like some of the Redemption art more... But it had funner effects that if they were in this game, would drive the players insane. But on the other side, If YGO had the drawing and Searching that Redemption does, the game would go so fast, you wouldn't know what hit you.

Sweet! Info about the Decks! I wonder what new cards are going to be in it! It would be cool if there was a Fort in there (finally!)
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 28, 2012, 02:19:42 PM
That starter deck will contain each of the brigades that were not used on a card in the 2011 release.
Interesting. So Teal gets its spotlight in a starter deck, very nice. Also, it looks like the stigma of Orange in starter decks didn't stop you guys. :P
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: megamanlan on April 28, 2012, 02:38:35 PM
I knew it! And Gray's getting something too. And there will definately be no Green (or at least as a main brigade) so does this mean we will finally see themes in the Decks? (or at least something that's complementing the theme they are meant for)?
Title: Re: Four Color David
Post by: browarod on April 28, 2012, 02:42:51 PM
For discussion of the new set, go here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/new-card-ideas/new-set-brainstorming/). Let's leave this thread for Gabe's David(s) (and perhaps the art discussion if he allows that to continue).
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