Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => New Card Ideas => Topic started by: Red on November 25, 2011, 03:51:30 PM
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Redemption has been in print for 16 years now. During those 16 years Redemption has seen 12 expansions, 4 starter decks and hundreds of promo cards. In two of these expansion three new brigades debuted, Silver, Teal, and Orange.
It is my honest request that Cactus does not print a new brigade for the reasons I am about to describe,
1:Redemption has brigades with only one or two themes such as Blue, Red, and green, In these brigades Cactus could print the early Church, Marytrs, and Deacon themes.
2: Redemption is hard enough to collect and teach as is with 15-16 brigades to play with. If Cactus was to print another brigade it could turn some new players off to the game due to the unwieldy amount of colors to keep track of.
3:It could bring some older players to quit due to being fed up with the amount of colors in the game. I know of at least two older faithful players including myself who would quit if a new color was added.
I hope that Cactus will consider my arguments,
God Bless,
Jay,
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I appreciate you sharing your feelings on this, and I'm pretty sure there will NOT be any new brigades started in the 2012 cards.
However, I also hope that you are speaking hyperbolicly about quitting the game just because the number of colors goes from 15 to 16. I would hope that your enjoyment of the game and the fellowship that you have with other people who play it would be more significant than such a minor addition.
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i'll reinforce prof u im almost certain there won't be any new brigades there was a big enough outcry after priests. so im def for keeping what we have we don't need anything new.
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I agree with much of what you are saying, Red. I do not support any additional brigades in the near-future. However, even Cactus did introduce new brigades in the next few sets, that would not drive me to quit the game.
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1:Redemption has brigades with only one or two themes such as Blue, Red, and green, In these brigades Cactus could print the early Church, Marytrs, and Deacon themes.
True, it could. It could also print one of those in Teal if they wanted, or it could print them in a new brigade. Is it the new color that bothers you or the new theme?
2: Redemption is hard enough to collect and teach as is with 15-16 brigades to play with. If Cactus was to print another brigade it could turn some new players off to the game due to the unwieldy amount of colors to keep track of.
What is there to keep track of?
3:It could bring some older players to quit due to being fed up with the amount of colors in the game. I know of at least two older faithful players including myself who would quit if a new color was added.
Why? For what reasons? What is their reason for playing in the first place if a new brigade causes them to quit?
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I am in favor of a new brigade. Bryon has explained that some themes are simply too large to share their brigade with (silver, teal, blue) and in turn one last brigade is being considered to complete the redemption brigade system. Tan would be an enormous brigade with an endless supply of heroes and enhancements.
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IF anything that should make a new evil bridage color. There are 8 good, and 7 evil. Wouldn't it just make sense?
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I am in favor of a new brigade. Bryon has explained that some themes are simply too large to share their brigade with (silver, teal, blue) and in turn one last brigade is being considered to complete the redemption brigade system. Tan would be an enormous brigade with an endless supply of heroes and enhancements.
I still think genesis isn't THAT big of a theme. But if they give it decent mechanics I may change my stance.
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Decent mechanics???? It's a top tier offense, what else are you looking for? Speed, Recursion, Play First, CBN, multiple battle winners, what's not to love? Not to mention an artifact that gets you an OT card...
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Decent mechanics???? It's a top tier offense, what else are you looking for? Speed, Recursion, Play First, CBN, multiple battle winners, what's not to love? Not to mention an artifact that gets you an OT card...
Not only that, but there are still dozens of Genesis characters that can be printed/reprinted
I don't see why more brigades would be a bad thing. It just allows for more deckbuilding options, and requires more strategy to use/counter, both of which I've always seen as being good things.
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Well, I think redemption should have only had 6 good and 6 evil brigades, the more brigades there are the less they are going to get per set (or some brigades will have to be skipped occasionally) I also don't think any theme is too big to need every slot a brigade has.
I am also in favor of themes that cross brigades, such as I think Paul's companions should be a theme but that doesn't mean they should all be the same brigade, just make them work together.
Also the more brigades we have the more brigades aren't going to be competitive, simply because there can only be so many competitive cards/season regardless of how well the game is made.
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Whoops... I meant my second statement at the Tan brigade everyone talks about.
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Well, I think redemption should have only had 6 good and 6 evil brigades, the more brigades there are the less they are going to get per set (or some brigades will have to be skipped occasionally) I also don't think any theme is too big to need every slot a brigade has.
I am also in favor of themes that cross brigades, such as I think Paul's companions should be a theme but that doesn't mean they should all be the same brigade, just make them work together.
Also the more brigades we have the more brigades aren't going to be competitive, simply because there can only be so many competitive cards/season regardless of how well the game is made.
Theres no way that they are going to get rid of brigades.
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Theres no way that they are going to get rid of brigades.
I know they won't get rid of brigades, I was saying if they could do it over again I would want them to only have the six original brigades of each alignment, I am in no way suggesting dropping the ones they have already established.
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I think 7 good brigades and 6 evil brigades makes more sense, but we're already past that.
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Well, I think redemption should have only had 6 good and 6 evil brigades, the more brigades there are the less they are going to get per set (or some brigades will have to be skipped occasionally) I also don't think any theme is too big to need every slot a brigade has.
Yeah. I don't like how Teal has had next to nothing printed for it in the last few sets.
I don't think we'll get a new brigade in the starter decks.
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I say if any new brigade make it a evil one. 8 good bridades are plenty. It's the evil people that need more help. I say what's needed the most are more useful N.T. red heroes
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The Centurions aren't good? I like the idea that evil lags behind good.
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The Centurions aren't good? I like the idea that evil lags behind good.
They are, but they have very little support. If they reprinted Corneilus and some other useful ones then red would have better N.T. heroes.
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Red does just fine, without attention to testament. The Centurions, in the midst of a Red onslaught can completely shut down a standalone defense. (Say, one of the most popular defenses around)
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I think 7 good brigades and 6 evil brigades makes more sense, but we're already past that.
I'm thinking the next Biblically-appropriate numerical combination would be 12 good brigades and 11 evil brigades. If that's the case, we'd need eight more colors. Not sure if that's attainable in order to keep all 23 colors distinct. A few years ago I offered that patterns be used, sort of like what is used for stationery and bank check designs. Here's a diamond plating example complete with skull icon:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc06.deviantart.net%2Ffs23%2Fi%2F2008%2F031%2Fa%2Fe%2Fdiamond_plate_gearhead_2_by_mortikye.jpg&hash=ae539d2afba2ceb00eb1ca7eadd8cade8e0ecce9)
FYI: Paisley would definitely have to be evil. :P
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I can just imagine the floral print and "brigade" brigades.
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I can just imagine the floral print and "brigade" brigades.
Speaking of floral prints, when it was announced that there were going to be two new brigades prior to the Priests release, I suggested that a pink brigade be created for women heroes (which could include early church women). It would have been great to release such a set in conjunction with breast cancer awareness month. :)
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I,for one,wouldn't mind seeing another color added. I'd request that it be good brigade though. In spite of the talk bout leaving and evil needs help. I think the bottom line is this: It's a game,ppl come and go(same as any other game),evil just got a boost with the release of the tins and even though its a blast to play-it really helps one rediscover parts of the Bible they had forgotten.
Just my :2cents:
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I think good got much more of a boost with Joseph, Ahimelek, Samuel etc.
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I agree. There are plenty of brigades, but not enough characters and enhancements for those brigades. Wait till you have way too many characters and enhancements for each brigade before you decide to add another brigade. And when you DO add another brigade, make sure you include a good amount of cards for them this time. When CGD released the orange brigade, there wasn't enough of them to make it worth using.
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Example brigades:
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcomps.canstockphoto.com%2Fcan-stock-photo_csp4121690.jpg&hash=e1e113841d64027f3a6d101a49d0fc97119d93d9)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catholichomeandgarden.com%2FQuilting%2FIchtus%2520Symbol%2520Rainbow%2520Quilting%2520Fabric.jpg&hash=215e8d386faeb784fc96cb649d8f5c8f534ca6d3)
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcR7qMD4a5ozLly1jd44WHoBovitvjmZZOKez1G0nwHzRc2iIHN82YRvjE6pXg&hash=1bbbdebe390f7b7b6504d88f7452e469eb99996a)(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimage.shutterstock.com%2Fdisplay_pic_with_logo%2F65542%2F65542%2C1256545948%2C10%2Fstock-photo-abstract-fire-background-design-elements-textures-39651658.jpg&hash=dfaa8ed3f7f62aac089e4c99440c64ac894f9952)
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I agree. There are plenty of brigades, but not enough characters and enhancements for those brigades. Wait till you have way too many characters and enhancements for each brigade before you decide to add another brigade. And when you DO add another brigade, make sure you include a good amount of cards for them this time. When CGD released the orange brigade, there wasn't enough of them to make it worth using.
Once a brigade has way too many cards, I would say it's too late to add a new brigade. The time to add a new brigade is before the others get so big that a new one would just be laughable.
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Teal didn't seem so laughable.
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Neither would Tan/Clay if it were made now. But I can't think of a brigade that has way too many cards in it at this point.
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Neither would Tan/Clay if it were made now. But I can't think of a brigade that has way too many cards in it at this point.
IMO, they should add to Gold. Noone uses that brigade anymore. Ever. Granted, theres the new judges-angels thing now, but there is Absolutely no way to ever effectively win multiple categories in tournaments (over time or in the same toournament) to win with pure gold. ITs impossible. The cards are just bad.
Who needs tan when Gold is practically a new brigade in itself when considering that noone barely uses the cards that are already in it?
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Lots of people used Gold last season, when Herods were a good defense, and lots of people use Gold this season, in that Egyptians got such a nice/speedy boost.
;)
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Neither would Tan/Clay if it were made now. But I can't think of a brigade that has way too many cards in it at this point.
IMO, they should add to Gold. Noone uses that brigade anymore. Ever. Granted, theres the new judges-angels thing now, but there is Absolutely no way to ever effectively win multiple categories in tournaments (over time or in the same toournament) to win with pure gold. ITs impossible. The cards are just bad.
Who needs tan when Gold is practically a new brigade in itself when considering that noone barely uses the cards that are already in it?
Saying gold is bad being ignorant... get RTS and I'll use a gold deck and beat you. Or come very close.
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Good Gold. Not Evil. Good. Noone uses Good gold besides MAYBE like half judges half silver. But nothing solid good gold brigade.
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Good Gold has placed third in T1 2 player for two years in a row at Nats. I'd say that's pretty solid.
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Good Gold. Not Evil. Good. Noone uses Good gold besides MAYBE like half judges half silver. But nothing solid good gold brigade.
Gideon and Sam say hi.
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Good Gold. Not Evil. Good. Noone uses Good gold besides MAYBE like half judges half silver. But nothing solid good gold brigade.
If three silver cards is half silver someone counted wrong... And BTW a tip, The only good brigade you cannot play on it's own barring a two to three card splash is silver. I'll post a good gold offense soon. Judges are the best theme out for balanced decks. If you go offense heavy Isaiah or Genesis is better. But Judges are better when used in a balanced deck compared to the other two.
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Good Gold. Not Evil. Good. Noone uses Good gold besides MAYBE like half judges half silver. But nothing solid good gold brigade.
If three silver cards is half silver someone counted wrong... And BTW a tip, The only good brigade you cannot play on it's own barring a two to three card splash is silver. I'll post a good gold offense soon. Judges are the best theme out for balanced decks. If you go offense heavy Isaiah or Genesis is better. But Judges are better when used in a balanced deck compared to the other two.
I know i'm one of the noobs saying this, but yes. Please make more silver. I don't know what it is about that color, but it is the coolest.
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2: Redemption is hard enough to collect and teach as is with 15-16 brigades to play with. If Cactus was to print another brigade it could turn some new players off to the game due to the unwieldy amount of colors to keep track of.
What is there to keep track of?
Before I respond to this, let me just say that I don't think there will be any new brigades added in the near future, and I'd be a little bit surprised if, supposing the game gets say five more years of life, any new brigades get added at all at this point. That said...
I don't think the "keeping track" has as much to do with the potential for confusion (that may or may not have been the original point but I think that matters less than this), but that having so many colors dilutes any attempts to guard against certain colors, to the point now where it essentially a waste of time to defend against brigades, and people are more successful defending against categories of abilities (discard, convert, ignore, etc.).
A classic example - and I do mean classic; this was during Priests playtesting five years ago, before TGT or super white offenses - one of my quirky decks (I'll be honest: pretty much ALL my decks are quirky decks) was white NT females. It covered access to two Lost Soul cards very common at the time - NT and fem-only - and it had a strategy I liked but took some time to set up. You can probably still find the thread somewhere if it hasn't been purged. Basically it's the white NT females and Jairus and I think Angel in the Path, and a bunch of white ignore cards. The lynchpin was Book of the Covenant in a Gloried Temple, with I Am Love and I Am Truth.
The idea was that no matter which brigade someone was playing, if I could get those Covenants out, and get the right ignore card, I could ignore them when they blocked - cannot be negated - and then every subsequent turn fish it out of discard and ignore them again. The obvious weak spot was Warrior-class, and that was kind of the killer for that offense because the game was getting to the point where most defenders were WC, especially Babylonians, Syrians and Assyrians. But even then, I could only defend against five of the six brigades, and orange was coming down the pike.
So the downside of having so many colors in the game is that you can't really build a deck that can cover all the opposing colors, removing an entire strategic element from the game, and also killing part of the purpose of having brigades in the first place (forcing color match so not everyone can play AoCP or ANB is also important).
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...(forcing color match so not everyone can play AoCP or ANB is also important).
Mentioned in the same breath AND context??!! And yet, one stands idly by whilst one is persecuted. Life is indeed not fair.
;D
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...(forcing color match so not everyone can play AoCP or ANB is also important).
Mentioned in the same breath AND context??!! And yet, one stands idly by whilst one is persecuted. Life is indeed not fair.
;D
AoCP's clearly the better card. It works just like it was intended, without any changes!
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Ok, will someone please tell me what AoCP and ANB stand for?
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Sure!
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-card-play/redemption174-abbreviations-acronyms-shortcuts-aliases/ (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-card-play/redemption174-abbreviations-acronyms-shortcuts-aliases/)
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I'm guessing there has been a lot of changes to "A New Beginning"?
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I'm guessing there has been a lot of changes to "A New Beginning"?
It's the most-errata'd card in the history of Redemption.
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Really? Is there a thread or something for these errata's?
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Sort of. They're on the REG. As far as I know, there isn't an organized place for every errata ever.
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Really? Is there a thread or something for these errata's?
No need. Just talk to an old coot like me. Like the ancient Jewish tradition of reciting the Torah, I can re-tell the stories and errata behind ANB as we sit around a campfire watching the angels ascend and descend upon a ladder.
;)
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The Centurions aren't good? I like the idea that evil lags behind good.
Um, Ur completely missing the parts of the Bible (mainly the OT verses) that say that evil is more successful but in the end they get what they deserve. I believe that lots of the current sets need updating.
NT Blue is non-existent, Teal has nothing worth playing, Orange is all but dead, Silver is an embarrassment, NT Gold is to small, OT White is pointless, NT Black can't even play right, NT Crimson is too small and Red doesn't even have an NT Theme.
They should worry about the other brigades before adding a new one. There are plenty of places for other sets to be put into, and besides, who uses many of the cards from nearly all the old sets?
I think that before they make a new brigade, they need to think it through. Most brigades don't have much they can play thats worth playing. We have a problem when I can throw together a deck and not have to think about which cards to throw in because there are so few cards really worth using.
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Teal has nothing worth playing, Orange is all but dead,
Those statements disregard your point. It proves you don't understand Redemption as well as you think you do. Teal has MANY MANY staples/battlewinners and was the top one color offense for two-three years.
Orange is a beast to be reckoned with when paired with another color or even on it's own even if it got nothing in the latest set.
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I'm coming from my area where both Priests and Demons don't see play and when they do they get slaughtered here.
I do argee they have really good staples, but I have yet to see a Priest deck that has won tournament (or at least gotten to the top 3) in the last 2 years. Same w/ Demons, since as far as I've seen they seem to mainly be able to take on Angels, which are now just an embarrassment to the game, mostly because there is major backlash against Angels unless they're like the ones from the new set, who really don't play well together.
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Im fairly certain that Tom Bombadil placed top three at NY states with a teal deck. But Someone can correct me on this if I am wrong
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How does that show that Teal is wonderful? I won a tournament using my Angel-only Deck/Site Lock (No Evil) Deck, that doesnt mean they're wonderful, or the best deck in our region.
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How does that show that Teal is wonderful?
A CBN Interrupt and win the battle card on a hero that can't captured, an NT character that searches for dominants, Feasts and the ability to seamlessly tech with green makes teal wonderful.
I won a tournament using my Angel-only Deck/Site Lock (No Evil) Deck
Unless you placed at MN state (the only other state tourney comparable in size) with that deck you can't make a comparison, with decent luck anyone can win a local. :P
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@Meagaman: Red does have a N.T. theme it is the Centurions. The problem is that it is small with only 3 characters (Centurion, Centurion at Capernum, and Centurion at Calvary) and 2 enhancement (Centurion's proclamation and A Roman Soldier's Faith).
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How does that show that Teal is wonderful? I won a tournament using my Angel-only Deck/Site Lock (No Evil) Deck, that doesnt mean they're wonderful, or the best deck in our region.
Because it's state level. Incidentally, Teal has won Nationals. Until Redemption has Worlds, you can't get better than that. Teal will always be good thanks to the feasts.
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Teal is currently the best support brigade in the game. Despite them not getting much help in the past few years, they have gotten some help, namely Aaron, Zadok Anoints Solomon, Samuel (with Abiathar), Ahimilek (with Jehoiada's Strength/Ezra's Journey/The Silver Trumpets). They are easily playable with Gold, Red, Green, or White. An argument could be made that Green is a better support, but generally green becomes a main brigade.
Silver has good support characters, but lacks the diversity (it's good with green, gold, and blue) and speed. It is obviously better for some brigades than Teal, but as a general rule, Teal is always a good add.
This year is the first year all the good brigades are actually playable. White TGT is still alive, Disciples (purple) are still good, Red and Gold had a terrific boost this year, Green is green, blue has popped back up, and teal and silver are great for support.
In addition, there are so many potential combinations of brigades within decks. I've seen White/Gold, Purple/Red/Gold/Silver, Teal/Green/Gold/Silver, Gold/Silver, Blue/Silver, White/Purple, Green/Silver, and many more. In general, the Silver is just an Angel Under the Oak, Angel at Shur, or some "__ubim"s, but I'll still count that.
Nobody plays evil, so who cares about that. No new brigades are needed.
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Nobody plays evil, so who cares about that.
True.
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthreelionsgaming.com%2Foe19953_files%2FEvil.jpg&hash=70ad643a05c866915b5b2e6cf53783ff935a33aa)
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I'm a bit late to the party, but...
1:Redemption has brigades with only one or two themes such as Blue, Red, and green, In these brigades Cactus could print the early Church, Marytrs, and Deacon themes.
I see no reason to see those three titles (which could easily fit into the same theme) couldn't share a brigade. I actually agree that blue brigade could easily house such a theme, however, the vast majority of people disagree with me, so I'm not really opposed to seeing a tan brigade made.
2: Redemption is hard enough to collect and teach as is with 15-16 brigades to play with. If Cactus was to print another brigade it could turn some new players off to the game due to the unwieldy amount of colors to keep track of.
Please learn basic psychology. There's no reason adding an additional color would make it any harder for anyone who wasn't mentally disabled (I'm not using that term insultingly or sarcastically - nobody get offended) to comprehend how to play the game. Even if it did, adding a theme would do the exact same thing, and would actually make it harder to keep track of.
3:It could bring some older players to quit due to being fed up with the amount of colors in the game. I know of at least two older faithful players including myself who would quit if a new color was added.
Is there anything that won't make you quit these days, Red? I hear you throw that threat around a lot, and it's always for extremely petty things like this. If you want to quit - just do it. Don't make a big giant deal about it please.
I still think genesis isn't THAT big of a theme. But if they give it decent mechanics I may change my stance.
As already mentioned, Genesis is extremely well-established with solid mechanics. It's easily one of the four best themes in the game (along with Disciples, TGT, and Sam).
IMO, they should add to Gold. Noone uses that brigade anymore. Ever. Granted, theres the new judges-angels thing now, but there is Absolutely no way to ever effectively win multiple categories in tournaments (over time or in the same toournament) to win with pure gold. ITs impossible. The cards are just bad.
Who needs tan when Gold is practically a new brigade in itself when considering that noone barely uses the cards that are already in it?
Gold already has two well-established themes: Judges (which is a solid offense, albeit not top-tier) and Luke (a niche offense with a lot of potentional). While it would be easy to decide that Luke/John and "Early Church" could just be paired together, I (and the vast majority of people) disagree. There are brigades like Blue that only have one established theme within the brigade.
Saying gold is bad being ignorant... get RTS and I'll use a gold deck and beat you. Or come very close.
I'd be happy to take you up on that. You can play a gold offense (I'm presuming Judges, since that's all you talk about), and I'll play one of my decks, which isn't gold, and we'll see who comes out on top 2 out of 3 games.
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Judges are the best theme out for balanced decks. If you go offense heavy Isaiah or Genesis is better. But Judges are better when used in a balanced deck compared to the other two.
Not even close. I can play a Prophets/Babylonians deck or a Prophets/Assyrians deck and I'm willing to bet that a balanced green deck will whip a balanced gold deck nine times out of ten.
Um, Ur completely missing the parts of the Bible (mainly the OT verses) that say that evil is more successful but in the end they get what they deserve. I believe that lots of the current sets need updating.
Rob has clearly established that in every single meta, he wants to see good themes be better than evil themes. His aim is that, barring bad deck building or unlucky draws, good should be able to ultimately beat evil every time.
NT Blue is non-existent, Teal has nothing worth playing, Orange is all but dead, Silver is an embarrassment, NT Gold is to small, OT White is pointless, NT Black can't even play right, NT Crimson is too small and Red doesn't even have an NT Theme.
The bolded ones don't have an established theme at all, and I don't know why you're mentioning them at all. At no point did anyone say, "let's have an OT and NT theme for each brigade", so it's not worth bringing up. Teal is still one of the strongest brigades, and a generic Z Temple deck, while not top-tier, is still entirely playable. Orange is as strong as most other defenses, since standalone is still king. Silver is a top-tier support brigade. NT Gold has potential, and is hopefully getting a lot of help next set. NT Crimson is, as far as I know, still great in T2. Red has Centurions, you jelly?
It proves you don't understand Redemption as well as you think you do.
I'm just taking a moment to let the irony wash over me. You should really drop this attitude of "I'm better than you" or "If I don't get my way I'm quitting". It's not becoming to you or the community, and an attitude like that is not what the game is made of, and simply deters other people from wanting to converse with you. It would be a ridiculous attitude if top-tier players like Gabe or RDT had it, let alone a player who hasn't won multiple national titles.
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NT Blue is non-existent, Teal has nothing worth playing, Orange is all but dead, Silver is an embarrassment, NT Gold is to small, OT White is pointless, NT Black can't even play right, NT Crimson is too small and Red doesn't even have an NT Theme.
The bolded ones don't have an established theme at all, and I don't know why you're mentioning them at all. At no point did anyone say, "let's have an OT and NT theme for each brigade", so it's not worth bringing up. Teal is still one of the strongest brigades, and a generic Z Temple deck, while not top-tier, is still entirely playable. Orange is as strong as most other defenses, since standalone is still king. Silver is a top-tier support brigade. NT Gold has potential, and is hopefully getting a lot of help next set. NT Crimson is, as far as I know, still great in T2. Red has Centurions, you jelly?
OT White = Musicians, NT Black = Sadducees. Otherwise, I completely agree with the above.
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My bad. >_>
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Also Daniel for White.