Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => National Tournament Winners => Topic started by: Gabe on August 01, 2009, 12:04:21 AM
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Player: Gabe Isbell
Everyone knows The Garden Tomb is really good. A variety of TGT decks hung out at the top tables at Nationals all day. The question wasn't whether or not people would be playing TGT, it was - what will you combine with your TGT offense?
I wanted to use the most annoying, complained about cards in Redemption from the past couple years so I combined TGT with Z's Temple and U&T. The completed version of this deck went 36-2, winning against 35 different people and 36 different decks. It went 6-1 at NC Regionals and an outstanding 8-0 performance at Nationals.
Teal works great with TGT because it has so many ways to remove opposing Evil Characters from play, which clears the way for TGT ladies to rescue unblocked. Teals biggest weakness is lack of access to the NT LS and Female LS, which is also solved by TGT ladies.
Total 51
Domants 9
Angel of the Lord
Guardian Of Your Souls
Harvest Time
New Jerusalem
Son of God
Burial
Christian Martyr
Destruction of Nehushtan
Falling Away
Artifacts 5
Holy Grail
Holy of Holies
Lampstand of the Sanctuary
Unholy Writ
Urim and Thummim
Fortresses 2
The Garden Tomb
Zerubbabel's Temple
Access Sites 2
New Jerusalem
Promised Land
Lost Souls 8
Lost Soul (female only)
Lost Soul (first round)
Lost Soul (hopper)
Lost Soul (N.T. only)
Lost Soul (revealer)
Lost Soul (shuffler)
Lost Soul (wanderer)
Lost Souls (2-line)
Heroes 10
Haggai
Joanna
Phinehas, son of Eleazar
Joshua the High Priest
Joiada, Son of Eliashib
Abiathar
Priests of Christ
Ahimaaz
Mary the Mother of James
Salome
Good Enhancements 9
Feast of Trumpets
First Fruits
Passover & Unleavened Bread
Pentecost
Trumpet Blast
Jordan Interrupted
Filling Zerubbabel’s Temple
Holy unto the Lord
Zeal for the Lord
Evil Characters 5
The Amalekites' Slave
Uzzah
Seven Sons of Sceva
King of Tyrus
Prince of this World
Evil Enhancement 1
Haman's Plot
There were two cards changed between NC Regionals and Nationals. Tim Maly suggested adding Holy Grail after winning 5-4 in our game at NC Regionals. I also bumped the deck up to 51 cards by adding Haman's Plot, mostly to help against Captain bands. Both turned out to be a great addition. Holy Grail won me a few rescues and probably even a game vs Kurt Hake. I registered 3 copies of the deck so I could use 3 Haman's Plot (if necessary). I used the 3rd one during the 8th and final round.
If people are interested I'll add commentary about how to play the deck at a later time.
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I like this deck a lot. You've taken a lot of the problems of typical Garden Tomb decks (oops, my enhancements don't match my characters) and almost mitigated while maintaining the goal of the Garden Tomb. I must admit though I am somewhat complexed that the defense held out long enough. Maybe none of my garden tombs ever rose up fast enough. Either way, good work on the deck and the win.
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How did you beat John M?
I thought his offense would have crushed you unless you used the plot on him
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must be nice to have extra revealers and goys destruction out the wazoo and KoTs laying around
hamans plot ftw!
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How did you beat John M?
I thought his offense would have crushed you
Nick, I don't think they played. I checked the spread a bit ago.
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Hahahaha, This deck is rediculous. :D I love the goal you had when making it. Grats.
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...to utterly destroy the defense? i think thats the purpose of all tgt decks :)
im surprised to see no john/aoc promo. women as snares is also a great card for tgt.
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With two green Heroes, Provisions also seems like it would have fit nicely. Maybe for First Fruits?
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well Another defense light deck by Gabe. I hope this isnt the trend of things to come...
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How did you beat John M?
I thought his offense would have crushed you
Nick, I don't think they played. I checked the spread a bit ago.
Gabe played John in the last round and beat him 5-3... at least that is what the spreadsheet tells me
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How did you beat John M?
I thought his offense would have crushed you unless you used the plot on him
You thought correctly. I ripped my last Plot against him in the 8th and final round. Another factor was when he forgot to exchange the "wanderer" LS for a "2 liner" LS early in the game, earning him half instead of a rescue. Ultimately it really just came down to I drew SoG/NJ before he did.
im surprised to see no john/aoc promo. women as snares is also a great card for tgt.
Both are great ideas. :)
I seriously considered using purple instead of green for my third color. Ultimately I went for the green guys because of the extra banding options they gave me and the chance to search for Z's Temple. In the end, teal is able to remove enough ECs that AoCp wasn't entirely necessary.
Women as Snares was in the deck until Nationals. She got the cut to make room for Holy Grail. I found that I rarely used her. She gives my opponent more souls to rescue and never gets a successful block (in this deck). Part of my defense is LS manipulation via Dominants, shuffler, wanderer and 2 liner. She works against that plan.
With two green Heroes, Provisions also seems like it would have fit nicely. Maybe for First Fruits?
Provisions was on the short list of cards I really wanted to squeeze into the deck but didn't have room if I wanted to keep it at 50 (well OK, 51 ;)) cards. I don't have any ECs of my own that I want to choose (OK, Women as Snares would have been fun). In theory I can set up some combos to take out my opponent's ECs. This deck often doesn't have that kind of time. By some peoples definition this might be the new face of speed.
Also, First Fruits recursion got me to my SoG/NJ or TGT quickly on more than one occasion. I'd probably be more likely to remove Feast of Trumpets.
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how did the dfence fair? i know about the doms lost souls and all that jazz but what about the evil characters and plot?
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Why no Hormah or other sites? especially with the two liner?
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Hey Gabe,
How do you judge this decks record?
This deck in it's 100% entirety (with no changes) went 36-2
This deck in it's 90% entirety (between 1 to 3 cards exchanged).
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This deck since it's conception (a possible 10 to 15 cards exchanged).
I'm asking mostly because I'm curious about something. 8)
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Why no Hormah or other sites? especially with the two liner?
hormah would only trigger off 2 of his 3 human ec's...2 actually, if he uses tas' ability. those arent very good odds for a hormah inclusion.
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True, But sites are often ways to delay an opponent. Especially when you have no defense. and you have one guy who has a special ability that d/c himself anyway! Even if you arent able to use Hormah, you still force them to pick a certain brigade (blue) or wait for site access to go after that LS.
I dunno, I just think 3-4 sites would have made this deck way stronger and not slowed it down all that much.
Including a shabbat breaker like his last Nats winning deck migh have sped it up even more I (and given him another human ec to search for with TAS and d/c for hormah)
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how did the dfence fair? i know about the doms lost souls and all that jazz but what about the evil characters and plot?
The defense was able to get a few blocks in for me each game and that's typically all I need. Unholy Writ worked great. I'm really happy with the addition of Haman's Plot. I can't believe I didn't try it at States or Regionals. My intent was to only use it if I felt it's absolutely necessary. I'm not sure I could have won any of the three games I ripped HP without it. Two of them I still probably shouldn't have won.
Why no Hormah or other sites? especially with the two liner?
hormah would only trigger off 2 of his 3 human ec's...2 actually, if he uses tas' ability. those arent very good odds for a hormah inclusion.
+1 I love Hormah and use it in almost every deck that has enough human ECs. KChief nailed my reasoning for not including it.
How do you judge this decks record?
This deck in it's 100% entirety (with no changes) went 36-2
This deck in it's 90% entirety (between 1 to 3 cards exchanged).
-or-
This deck since it's conception (a possible 10 to 15 cards exchanged).
I'm asking mostly because I'm curious about something. 8)
The original version tried a completely different deffense (which turned out to be epic fail). The offense was only different by three cards but even that makes a huge difference. I consider the version that I took to States and Regionals the finished version.
Jonathan, your 5-4 win on RTS against this deck on May 21st was it's first loss. So you're the only person to defeat me with this deck besides Tim at NC Regionals. There's a feather for your cap! ;)
I dunno, I just think 3-4 sites would have made this deck way stronger and not slowed it down all that much.
Including a shabbat breaker like his last Nats winning deck migh have sped it up even more I (and given him another human ec to search for with TAS and d/c for hormah)
Those are both good ideas that might work out very well. I'm not willing to take the deck any higher than 50 cards (OK, 51 with HP). If you want to give it a try I'd be interested to hear how it works for you.
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That's what I thought...thanks for the compliment! :)
According my records, one of my better decks took a loss by it...let me tell everyone out there Unholy Writ is a beast of help to the blockers.
So us splitting games (50-50) in my records is accurate. Thanks Gabe....you seem to know how my mind works and what I was asking.
That's kind of scary. o_O
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Awesome job on winning again Gabe and congrats! :)
Are they gonna make you into a dominant one day? :D
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No... but I have a signed gifts of the magi by Gabe. :-*
This deck is just too fast. I had a good shot at him, and would have won in 1-2 turns. He just got cards faster. Nice job Gabe!
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Congrats!
And yes, to answer the question asked earlier, splash defenses are still positively brutal, even with TGT decks as popular as they are. It's about the only reasonable way to make a 50 card deck, and as anyone will tell you, Type 1 is a lot about who gets their dominants first.
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How many other people were playing TGT against you?
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How many other people were playing TGT against you?
I can't recall exactly but at least 4 out of 8, maybe more. Most of the decks at the table on the stage (spots 1-4) contained TGT all day in T1-2P.
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I can't recall exactly but at least 4 out of 8, maybe more. Most of the decks at the table on the stage (spots 1-4) contained TGT all day in T1-2P.
I wonder if Cactus is still claiming the card is well-balanced and that they don't make broken things.
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Everyone is a cynic ::)
Though, I agree, it makes for some boring tournaments.
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I can't recall exactly but at least 4 out of 8, maybe more. Most of the decks at the table on the stage (spots 1-4) contained TGT all day in T1-2P.
I wonder if Cactus is still claiming the card is well-balanced and that they don't make broken things.
buh-roken.
i also love how cactus' always tries to patch over their mistakes in the next expansion *cough cough ioj, destructive sin...*
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I can't recall exactly but at least 4 out of 8, maybe more. Most of the decks at the table on the stage (spots 1-4) contained TGT all day in T1-2P.
I wonder if Cactus is still claiming the card is well-balanced and that they don't make broken things.
buh-roken.
+1
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Thanks for posting the deck. Great learning opportunity for other players.
I can't wait to see come up for the gaming season.
Wil
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I can't recall exactly but at least 4 out of 8, maybe more. Most of the decks at the table on the stage (spots 1-4) contained TGT all day in T1-2P.
I wonder if Cactus is still claiming the card is well-balanced and that they don't make broken things.
Having a powerful card that a lot of top decks use is hardly a sign of "brokenness". Next tourney season, it's gonna be some other card people are whining about(my money is on Samaritain Agua Recepticle). TGT already has counters, even before the latest set. One of my personal favorite counters is to splash TGT Heroes into my own decks to use their own Tomb against them.
Regarding Gabe's deck, the offense is brutal as always, but I'm absolutely shocked that nobody could shred that paper thin defense. That's just nuts. That Plot made all the difference in the world, as Gabe already attested.
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I think people did shred through it. Gabe probably only successfully blocked a couple of times. But that was all he needed. His deck is faster than the opponents, so he wins.
Props on the win, Gabe. Great deck. :)
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I just noticed that none of the Lost Soul cards in this deck are RoA ones. Were RoA souls uncommon to see in top decks?
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The only change I would make is switch Prince of this World for Trembling Demon. You already have HoH, and Prince can be easily bypassed.
Having played this deck, I LOVE IT. Congrats on your success.
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i was surprised to see hoh in the deck to begin with. is fbtn prevalent again?
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I just noticed that none of the Lost Soul cards in this deck are RoA ones. Were RoA souls uncommon to see in top decks?
That's an interesting point. I don't recall seeing many RoA souls at the top tables in T1. A couple people were using the "deck discard" LS because they had Sites. That's really all I remember facing. T2 was a very different story however. There were lots of RoA souls in T2.
The only change I would make is switch Prince of this World for Trembling Demon. You already have HoH, and Prince can be easily bypassed.
I agree with you on that concept. In fact I agree so much that the original defense (that turned out to be terrible) had Trembling Demon instead of PotW. The problem I found is that Trembling Demon is only good for one block and then only if I have drawn HoH and have it active. In other words, too often he wasn't working out.
PotW on the other hand didn't require me to draw another card (HoH) or have it active. He's not guaranteed to make a successful block but he can often make several or at least keep an opponent at bay for a few turns. When he loses he uses up a battle winner (or AotL) allowing him (via SSoS) or KoT to make a successful block later. He's also big enough to stand up to a FBTN character who doesn't have backup.
i was surprised to see hoh in the deck to begin with. is fbtn prevalent again?
Surprisingly, yes. I played against two FBTN decks in 8 rounds. John is also pretty popular thanks to TGT and he stops my entire defense. HoH is also a Temple Artifact for Filling Z's Temple. It can sit in the temple to protect another active Artifact from Capture Ark. It satisfies Uzzah's appetite on the occasion that I have no other need for it.
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The problem I found is that Trembling Demon is only good for one block
Just as you use SSoS for Prince, SSoS also allows you to use TD twice. :)
Surprisingly, yes. I played against two FBTN decks in 8 rounds.
I also played 2. One was a TGT splash, but the other was a 100% FTBN deck with like 7 heroes.
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Abiathar Vs Amariah Protected from d/c vs Cannot be interrupted enhancements. Do Abiathars protection help you more than what you might have gained via amariah's ability? Plust amariah is another High Priest for U&T.
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Abiathar Vs Amariah Protected from d/c vs Cannot be interrupted enhancements. Do Abiathars protection help you more than what you might have gained via amariah's ability? Plust amariah is another High Priest for U&T.
Abiathar is amazing. I've had people block him with Zimri only to find that they just suicided (is that a word?) their king for nothing. I've had games where I open up with him and U&T to find out my opponent is holding CM. I proceded to make three straight rescues that they couldn't use their dominant to stop. Those are best case scenerios though. Mostly I like to look at their hand with U&T and if they have CM then I know he's my rescuer.
The one mistake I remember making in all my T1 games was looking to see that my opponent was holding CM and then, like an idiot, rescuing with Ahimaaz instead of Abiathar and getting CM'd. :P
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I'm just a beginner but my suggestion is:
TRADE
New Jeruselum and Amalekites
for Cards in deck: 2
Artifacts: 1
Darius' Decree
Brown Evil Characters: 1
Haman
King Leo
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dude gabe is a natinal champion he knows what he's doing.
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The problem with that suggestion is that the won nationals BEFORE Darius' decree was available... but it would be a good card.
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needs more buckler.
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needs more buckler.
QFT. 0/2 Variety.
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2 questions:
1. when you played first fruits wat did you usually discard and
2. how often did you use burial? For a serious torunament like state, regoinals or even Nats, would you recommend takin it out or keepin it in?
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1. when you played first fruits wat did you usually discard?
The choice is pretty situational. Sometimes I would discard another of the set-aside Enhancements since they can all be recurred with Joiada. Sometimes I would discard GoYS if they'd played Falling Away already, or HT if they were playing Sites. Occasionally I could spare a Hero. Sometimes there were situations where Filling Z's Temple, Trumpet Blast or Holy Unto the Lord could be spared.
2. how often did you use burial? For a serious torunament like state, regoinals or even Nats, would you recommend takin it out or keepin it in?
Never. Look at the top 3 decks from Nationals for the past several years. Do you see any that didn't use Burial? No.
Since 2005 we have 12 of the 15 decklists published that placed in the top 3 at Nationals. Almost all of them used all 9 Dominants. There are only three that omitted any of them. One left out GoYS, one left out GoYS and HT and another left out DoN. I would venture to say that even those decks could have been better if they'd included the other Dominants.
Ask yourself, if most of the top decks are using these cards, is there any reaons I shouldn't include them?
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to be original and not net-deck. ::)
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now now Master KChief
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I beat an Alstad today with a deck containing one Evil dom and like four good ones. Just sayin.
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Decks with a low number of Dominants can compete in T1, just not at the top levels.
T2 on the other hand... you can win without even putting SoG in your deck. ::)
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How good is this deck in the current metagame? Will it be a force at this years nats?
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This deck, and variations upon it still do just fine.
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would there be any changes to the deck with the new cards out now, like Mayhem or Grapes?
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now now Master KChief
i didnt mean it in a bad way, im just saying the only people that wouldnt use the best doms are ones that want to try to be original. they'll more than likely lose doing that though. :)
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I find many doms to be overrated. HT? Overrated. Burial? Overrated. GoyS and Falling Away? Overrated for the same reason. Of course, I run LotS in all of my decks so that may be slanting my opinion.
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my opinion of having all the doms in a deck is that they're not needed. Burial is a good example. It is basicaly sucide to use it offensively, If your not carefull you could be locked out of ls to rescue. To use it defensively with out sites, your hope is to either only have 1 ls out or have a lost souls card to manipulate. I would much rather have a Kot added to my deck or an unholy writ. Either of these is almost an auto block. Kot will either stop a rescue or soak up AOTL. Writ stops most ra's or can be used as don fodder or even for uzzah.
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Why not have kot, Unholy Writ and Burial? I must say I completely agree with Gabe.
The deck that omitted Destruction of Nehushtan was mine, by the way. :) And if I could do it again, I'd put it in. Basically it was an oversight, and I'm really glad it didn't affect Jeffry's chances at winning. I can absolutely say that deck should have had Destruction of Nehushtan.
Now I think there are times when a defensive-heavy deck won't need harvest time, or something minor like that, but for 95% of the time, you should put in all 11 (I'd say Grapes and Mayhem have both become absolute staples).
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Heres what I think about most dominants, and how often I use them.
SoG - Always
NJ - Always
CM - Always
DoN - Always
Burial - Always, it's saved me too many times to take out, especially when I use sitelocks.
FA - Always, as I play defense heavy, I do whatever it takes to slow them down.
GoyS - Always, ditto to the above, I often dont make RA's as fast as other players do, so I have time to draw this.
Mayhem - It goes in if I have room.
Grapes - Absolute new defensive staple for me, ESPECIALLY when I play with demons... its an instant block and I can keep my Wandering Spirit. As stated above, I'm usually slower on the start, so the chances of the opponent having less souls is reduced. I have yet to use this dominant offensively. :D
GotL - Never use this.
Harvest Time - Never use this, my decks wait for the opponent, so I almost never run into LS issues.
Doubt - I've considered using it in orange decks, but I've never actually used it before... Madness is far more useful.
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Heres what I think about most dominants, and how often I use them.
SoG - Always
NJ - Always
CM - Always
DoN - Always
Burial - Always, it's saved me too many times to take out, especially when I use sitelocks.
FA - Always, as I play defense heavy, I do whatever it takes to slow them down.
GoyS - Always, ditto to the above, I often dont make RA's as fast as other players do, so I have time to draw this.
Mayhem - It goes in if I have room.
Grapes - Absolute new defensive staple for me, ESPECIALLY when I play with demons... its an instant block and I can keep my Wandering Spirit. As stated above, I'm usually slower on the start, so the chances of the opponent having less souls is reduced. I have yet to use this dominant offensively. :D
GotL - Never use this.
Harvest Time - Never use this, my decks wait for the opponent, so I almost never run into LS issues.
Doubt - I've considered using it in orange decks, but I've never actually used it before... Madness is far more useful.
I'm assuming you always use AotL as well?
Anyway, my list would be almost identical, except that Harvest time would fall under the "if I have room" category, and I did use GotL back when Blue Tassels and Priestly Crown were Temple Arts, which made my offense able to break through literally any type of defense used at the time.
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Who'd use AoTL? That card is useless.... against Prince of Persia at least..... :D
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SoG-Always
NJ-Always
AotL-Always
CM - Always
DoN - 99% of the time
Burial - Almost never. Lampstand ftw.
FA - Same
GoyS - Same
Mayhem - Usually. A round 1 Mayhem when you're going first is brutal.
Grapes - Always
GotL - Only if I'm running a turtle
HT - Almost never
Doubt - Never
If I didn't use LotS in every deck, my list might look different. But the thought of having over 20% of deckspace identical among top decks is so loathsome to me that I'd probably continue making great decks with fewer dominants even without LotS.
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So after all of this discussion about the doms, what would the Teal Tomb decklist look like if you were going to take it to a tournament today?
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So after all of this discussion about the doms, what would the Teal Tomb decklist look like if you were going to take it to a tournament today?
i'v played the new version and garrison was the only new card i saw.
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Obviously you missed a few card then, since you'd be silly not to play with Grapes and Mayhem, and Gabe is anything but silly.
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So after all of this discussion about the doms, what would the Teal Tomb decklist look like if you were going to take it to a tournament today?
tgt + tgt heroes + territory destruction. cookie cutter at its finest.
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So after all of this discussion about the doms, what would the Teal Tomb decklist look like if you were going to take it to a tournament today?
tgt + tgt heroes + territory destruction. cookie cutter at its finest.
Unless you're like me and use Standing in the Gap. ;D
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So after all of this discussion about the doms, what would the Teal Tomb decklist look like if you were going to take it to a tournament today?
It looks many different ways depending on your preference and what you're trying.
To truely be "TealTomb" you'll have to have a core teal offense to power your way through your opponent's defense. You'll also most likely have white to include the "garden girls". Beyond that you can splash in another brigade or 2 as you see fit.
It's easy to combine green with teal because of the Jeremiah and Zacheriah, which also gives you Joanna. Gold has The Woman at the Well and Meeting the Messiah, which both work well with TGT. Purple also works well with Teal thanks to Melchizedek and that gives you AoCp and John. Silver can work well with Joshua the High Priest and 'He is Risen' (if you use it). Red gives you Peter, Jephthan and The Lord Fights for You. Blue is the only brigade that doesn't have much to offer apart from Mary Magdalene. The real trick is figuring out which one(s) will work best and still keeping your deck at 50 cards. I don't claim to have found the best answer yet.
Add whatever stand along defense works best for you.
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Obviously you missed a few card then, since you'd be silly not to play with Grapes and Mayhem, and Gabe is anything but silly.
:doh: :doh: :doh:
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SoG-Always
NJ-Always
AotL-Always
CM - Always
DoN - 99% of the time
Burial - Almost never. Lampstand ftw.
FA - Same
GoyS - Same
Mayhem - Usually. A round 1 Mayhem when you're going first is brutal.
Grapes - Always
GotL - Only if I'm running a turtle
HT - Almost never
Doubt - Never
If I didn't use LotS in every deck, my list might look different. But the thought of having over 20% of deckspace identical among top decks is so loathsome to me that I'd probably continue making great decks with fewer dominants even without LotS.
My list is about the same, Cept FA finds its way into my turtle decks in case of a bad ec draw. Truth be told, Characters/Enhs>doms most of the time.
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A few more things:
1. Did you find your heroes dying off quickly w/o chariot
2. Do you think 9 heroes w/o a chariot will last long enough and
3. How often did you attack with the garden girls?
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A few more things:
1. Did you find your heroes dying off quickly w/o chariot
2. Do you think 9 heroes w/o a chariot will last long enough and
3. How often did you attack with the garden girls?
1) No, my Heroes were usually pretty hard to kill because of various forms of protection. I had U&T to help me choose the best one to ensure their safety.
2) No, 9 Heroes is more than enough to win a game. The only reason I'd even consider adding Chariot today is if you fear Darius' Decree with all the set-aside enhancements this deck uses.
3) Every time I knew they could rescue a LS, meaning TGT was active and there were less than 2 of my opponent's evil brigade(s) in play.
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For the third question, did you attack with them at all when you won 5-0?
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I rarely won 5-0 with this deck. In fact, at Nationals I was surprised to see that I did win one round 5-0. It was in round 5 against an undefeated Kurt Hake who unfortunately only drew one evil character the entire game (and it didn't live longer than a turn). Any Hero could rescue a LS in that situation but that's not really a "game".
I had a similar 5-0 win against EmJayBee at Iowa States.
Then at NC Regionals I won one game 5-0 but it was against an inexperienced guy.
When you face another good player who gets a normal draw this defense is going to give up at least one LS. Just don't give up more than 4. ;)
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Winner. (http://redemptionspace.wordpress.com/)
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Well done Mr. Gabe.