Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => National Tournament Winners => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on July 27, 2009, 03:21:39 AM
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Builder: Clift Crysel
Player: Gabe Isbell
Cards: 100
Neutral Cards 18:
1 Holy of Holies
1 The Ends of the Earth
1 Lost Soul (can't be prevented)
2 Lost Soul (female only)
2 Lost Soul (first round)
2 Lost Soul (hopper)
2 Lost Soul (N.T. only)
2 Lost Soul (revealer)
2 Lost Soul (shame)
1 Lost Soul (site discard)
2 Lost Soul (wanderer)
Good Cards 41:
1 I am Holy
1 I am Redemption
3 I am Creator
1 Zerubbabel's Temple
5 Claudia
5 Ethiopian Treasurer
1 Joiada, Son of Eliashib
1 Passover & Unleavened Bread
1 Pentecost
5 Book of Hozai
5 Book of Jashar
2 Cup of Wrath
5 Reach of Desperation
5 Great Faith
1 Christian Martyr
1 Destruction of Nehushtan
1 Besieged
2 Captured Ark
5 Archers of Kedar
2 Arrogance
1 King Tiglath Pileser III
1 King Sargon II
1 The Rabsaris
5 Assyrian Archer
5 Words of Discouragement
1 Captured by Assyria
5 Two Thousand Horses
5 Confusion
5 Sin in the Camp
Clifts original version and post:
SPEED CAMP
(A.K.A would the real JDS please stand up...)
Offence:41
Defence:41
Nuetrals:18
LS:14
Hopper x2
Holy of Holies
The Ends of the Earth
FORT: 2
Z-Temple
Assyrian Camp
COVENANTS/CURSES: 5/3
I am Redemption
I am Holy
I am Creator x3
Captured Ark x2
Besieged
HEROS: 11
Claudia x5
ET x5
Joiada, Son of Eliashib x1
ENHANCMENTS: 24
Reach x5
Great Faith x5
Book of Hozai x5
Book of Jasher x5
Cup of Wrath x2
Pentecost
Passover & Unleavened Bread
EVIL CHARACTERS: 13
Archers of Kedar x5
Assyrian Archers x4
Messenger of Satan x2
King Sargon II
King Asnappar
ENHANCMENTS: 23
Arrogance x2
Confusion x5
2K Horses x5
Words of Discouragement x5
Sin in the Camp x5
Captured by Assyria
EVIL DOMINANTS: 1
Destruction of Nehushtan
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Side Battles galore and hand discarding, it can work :P
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Clift,
I like the changes that you made, good job. It makes the deck more versatile, especially not having to worry about a protect fortress in territory protecting a glut of ECs, but rather placing them under once a turn with Passover & Unleavened. Just an observation, why did you cut down to one copy of Holy of Holies? In my experience, I've found that artifact to be crucial. If I hit a drawing frenzy but come up short and can't finish the job in a side battle, then I have to put back the unplayed drawn cards if they block FBN, which stacks worthless cards on the top of the deck. I guess it would depend on how much FBN you see, definitely.
And BubbleBoy,
Ahh the beauty of T2 combo decks. ;D In a Sin in the Camp deck, you draw through your deck as quickly as possible and create a side battle to play three copies of Words of Discouragement to make your opponent place his entire hand on top of his deck. You proceed to play up to 5 copies of Confusion to nuke all of your opponent's good dominants in their deck. We all know that no player would ever use 6 good dominants in T2, so no worries about that. Then you finish it off by playing 3-5 copies of Sin in the Camp. Then every turn, your opponent draws three cards and is forced to place them all below his deck. With no hand, he is stuck with what is on the table to try to win still. It is not impossible to get back in the game, but unlikely most of the time. This type of the deck usually sets up fairly early, before the opponent has a chance to get enough cards in play to counter it.
Brad,
No hand discarding, simply making you place them back on the top of the deck.
Kirk
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And BubbleBoy,
Ahh the beauty of T2 combo decks. ;D In a Sin in the Camp deck, you draw through your deck as quickly as possible and create a side battle to play three copies of Words of Discouragement to make your opponent place his entire hand on top of his deck. You proceed to play up to 5 copies of Confusion to nuke all of your opponent's good dominants in their deck. We all know that no player would ever use 6 good dominants in T2, so no worries about that. Then you finish it off by playing 3-5 copies of Sin in the Camp. Then every turn, your opponent draws three cards and is forced to place them all below his deck. With no hand, he is stuck with what is on the table to try to win still. It is not impossible to get back in the game, but unlikely most of the time. This type of the deck usually sets up fairly early, before the opponent has a chance to get enough cards in play to counter it.
also, Passover & Unleavened Bread can take care of any evil character problems.
this deck shut me down two years ago at nationals. it's a beast.
how do you get around a tough storehouse? or King Lemuel? you have one shot to kill them...
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I'm glad that a deck like this won a big tournament. Hopefully more people will begin to use cards that get rid of placed Enhancements with this win as well as with the new cards from TexP.
Only thing I would change would be to use Forgotten History instead of Captured by Assyria because it can get rid of Enhancements in the discard pile which could be used with recursion.
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Bah, its the same premise, you just put them at the bottom of your deck instead of the discard pile, long story short, you can't play with the cards you draw :P
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Barring a loaded Storehouse, the only way they could recur enhancements would be with Asher/Micah or a hero with a placed recursion enhancement (Battle Prayer, Book of Gad the Seer, M&E, etc). Asher/Micah send to deck, so there are no worries there.
Captured by Assyria is probably to take out any heroes that might give his banding fits, less than winning a battle.
Kirk
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Only thing I would change would be to use Forgotten History instead of Captured by Assyria because it can get rid of Enhancements in the discard pile which could be used with recursion.
Captured by Assyria is probably to take out any heroes that might give his banding fits, less than winning a battle.
Ahh again the beauty of side battles:
I cup of wrath play the lock on defence and finish with captured by assyria to capture my own Claudia+ET so it cant be negated
i then activate I am redemption to bring them right back
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the only way they could recur enhancements would be with Asher/Micah or a hero with a placed recursion enhancement (Battle Prayer, Book of Gad the Seer, M&E, etc). Asher/Micah send to deck, so there are no worries there.
Well, there is Grain Belt.
Joiada+Grain Offering+Alter of Burnt.
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this deck is the reason cards need to be restricted/banned. there is almost absolutely no way to get past this once it sets up. good job on the combo deck.
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I was wrong on Joiada. :D
It slipped my mind about capturing Claudia/ET. I always use Deceit of Sapphira (w) in case I didn't have two Assyrians in play to make sure I could capture both.
And MKC, are you just now realizing that nigh impossible to beat, once set up, combos exist? ;D Haha, they've been around since 2004, leading to one rule change after another.... the first Sin in the Camp combo deck, made by Justin Sangillo and possibly Tim Maly as well, specifically caused the errata on the card itself. Before, you had to reveal one dominant per copy of SitC.
I'd like to point out the fact, that prior to this season, no T2 combo deck had won anything higher than a state level tournament. This season, three regional tournaments were won by different T2 combo decks. The approach varied, the end result was the same: little to nothing your opponent could do to stop you! ;)
Kirk
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i know that one ls gives me fits:
when you draw this ls you may discard an evil card in your territory to make an opponent discard a good card from hand or territory (i think)
if they're only playing four good doms then this is my next confusion target
the first Sin in the Camp combo deck, made by Justin Sangillo and possibly Tim Maly as well, specifically caused the errata on the card itself. Before, you had to reveal one dominant per copy of SitC.
yea i tried to give props in the deck title. every since i saw the idea for the deck ive played and modified the list past three or four years. this is an all or nothing combo deck which usually will set up on turn 3 or 4.
A highly addictive deck that can torment both you and your opponent and cheap to build for all you beginners out there.
Now dont let me down- I want to hear about all the Sin in the Camp decks that gave Captain Kirk, Mr. Hiatus, Lawfuldog, Xerospash and all of the rest of the type 2 powerhouses a fit at Nationals this year k guys so get to builing.
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Now dont let me down- I want to hear about all the Sin in the Camp decks that gave Captain Kirk, Mr. Hiatus, Lawfuldog, Xerospash and all of the rest of the type 2 powerhouses a fit at Nationals this year k guys so get to builing.
Hand a few copies to RLKs!
Krik
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What happens when your opponent just discards his hand and attacks with Zebulun 7 straight turns?
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Cup of Wrath => Archers
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I suppose, but that would mean he would need to make a rescue before clearing out the opponents ECs with P&UB, which could give the opponent a chance to draw/search/do nasty stuff while blocking.
I guess my point is, I think Christian Martyr makes this deck better than it is now.
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i never let my opponent block:
claudia+et draw pentecost
claudia+et draw cup+evil lock capture claudia+et
i am redemption walk in for the win
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Awesome deck!! It wasted me! :)
Did you actually have this one pre-built before the tourney? :laugh:
Hey wait....there goes my hand!!! :o
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He didn't use this deck against me, because he knew it wouldn't beat me. He's played me twice with this deck or a similar one and lost twice to me. So he had to build a deck that was specifically an Anti-Eric deck. Ya, it smoked me....
Eric "c'est la vie" Largent
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Yeah Justin, I was wondering about heroes myself. Can you stop two or three gathered angel banding together? Zebulen? There are a lot of heroes that cause problems that do not need enhancements. Also, one assyrian camp discarder and Women as Snares kills your defense and allows them to walk in.
EDIT: I think the only REAL weakness to this deck is an opponent's side battles. If they discard Z-temple your screwed. One side battle at the beginning of the game and they discard your z-temple and now you can't get rid of any evil characters. Now they can win any number of blocks with king of tyrus and prince of this world.
At the same time, way to go. Nice win with a very cool and unordinary deck. Well done.
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Wait a minute... I know this is kind of hilarious but... what do you do against cup of mana? ;D Do you just lose?
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He wins versus "cup of manna" because it doesn't exist.
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What about "Pot of mana?" ;) You know what I meant... ::) ;D
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Pot of Manna? That's probably when he uses DoN.
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And on the other 2 copies? If somebody is insane enough to include it, they go all out.
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Nope, I've only got 2 in my deck.
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I'm gonna have up to 3. I have seen a lot of people relying on side battles... I think it's a good card.
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Yeah Justin, I was wondering about heroes myself. Can you stop two or three gathered angel banding together? Zebulen? There are a lot of heroes that cause problems that do not need enhancements. Also, one assyrian camp discarder and Women as Snares kills your defense and allows them to walk in.
Yeah, you don't get blocked by this deck most of the time. It usually only takes about 3 or 4 turns and you lose so it doesn't really matter at all.
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No, this deck doens't cause you to lose. It caused you to have no hand. If your heroes can win with no hand (fbtn, banding) then you still have a pretty good chance cause he doesn't have very many battle winners.
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Yeah Justin, I was wondering about heroes myself. Can you stop two or three gathered angel banding together? Zebulen? There are a lot of heroes that cause problems that do not need enhancements. Also, one assyrian camp discarder and Women as Snares kills your defense and allows them to walk in.
Yeah, you don't get blocked by this deck most of the time. It usually only takes about 3 or 4 turns and you lose so it doesn't really matter at all.
Welcome to California.
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I think you guys are missing how this deck works. It's called "Speed" Camp for a reason. If you can get Pot of Manna, Zebulun, or your Gathered characters within the first two or three turns, then your arguments are valid. But usually this gets set up VERY early and there's not a whole lot you can do to stop it. The occasional Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr, or Unholy Writ help, but otherwise you sit there with no hand and you can't do anything because you have no hand, can't draw any more cards, and usually don't have the characters you need in order to win. But ya, like I said, Clift made several mistakes in the two games he played me and it ended up biting him in the butt. Because this is an all or nothing deck. Either you get the combo off or you lose. There's not really any other options. This is not a deck that can win without the combo, just as the first poster stated.
Eric "can't win them all" Largent
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i never let my opponent block:
claudia+et draw pentecost
claudia+et draw cup+evil lock capture claudia+et
i am redemption walk in for the win
You can only do that once however, since you only have one Captured by Assyria. I still don't see how not having Christian Martyr is better than having it. I realize that you have 5 Claudia's and 5 ETs but there are gonna be games where you don't draw one or the other right away and the opponent is gonna be able to set some stuff up.
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Believe me, i understand your logic Justin-
the problem with dominants in this deck is that they take up very valuble card slots in your hand dedicated to the lock down of your opponent
as long as the deck stays at 100 cards and you keep the combo peices and draw cards-
any type of tech can be added to the decklist according to preferance.
i do not doubt that christian martyr would only benefit the deck but you probably couldnt commit to holding it too long in your hand.
same for son of god just for a quick block.
i used to have king sword in the decklist just for red dragon but took it out for joiada+z-temp
jephthah, another ends of the earth, and one aoc was also included as well as philosophy but this is the current build.
one of my favorite plays with the deck is when im having to rely on what i call a soft lock aka 2 sincamp in territory and i activate i am holy and then place hand discarder in ends of the earth...
the mvp of the deck...words of discouragement
i like having aoc in the deck because it is an instant gabriel grab-the funny thing is after using Mr. Hiatus as a guinea pig for the deck over the years he finally figured out if you take out WoD you beat the deck.
archers are for opponents heros- belive me ive killed plenty of gathered guys
oh yea and besieged in battle is fun for j tower
i really look foward to playtesting grapes of wrath in the deck and will prob add another assyrian archer when i get one even though i think 4 is best
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Or I sit back and laugh as I draw 10 sites in the first 4 turns...
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Or I sit back and laugh as I draw 10 sites in the first 4 turns...
...and i laugh as you dont get to play with the cards that you spent probably hours on deciding to put in your deck :doh:
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i like having aoc in the deck because it is an instant gabriel grab-the funny thing is after using Mr. Hiatus as a guinea pig for the deck over the years he finally figured out if you take out WoD you beat the deck.
Ha, I know how that goes. When I built my combo deck back in the day, I had two copies of AoCP. Fortunately my opponents usually went for one of those instead of discarding Coat of Many Colors and making it very hard for me to pull it off... :D
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the mvp of the deck...words of discouragement
i like having aoc in the deck because it is an instant gabriel grab-the funny thing is after using Mr. Hiatus as a guinea pig for the deck over the years he finally figured out if you take out WoD you beat the deck.
The funny thing is, Tyler did that same discard against my combo deck at Nationals two years ago the first time he played it. Notice a trend? ;D
I do find it interesting that you only use two copies of Cup of Wrath. That would be the easiest card for someone to knock out with two Gabriel discards to keep you from pulling off the side battle, compared to knocking out 3 WoD. I include 3 copies of Cup so they can't keep me from winning by two early Gabriel attacks.
Kirk
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i agree
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Ladies and gentlemen, this deck is for real. Mad props to Clift for sharing it with the Redemption community. His advice over the phone this morning was also very valuable. :thumbup:
I was able to regularly go off by the 5th turn (or sooner) and completely devestate 5 of my 6 opponents. Of course Mr. Hiatus showed why he is one of the elite in T2 by giving me a sound beating. Thank God for the grace to keep us humble. ;D
The deck is a lot of fun to play with, but probably not a lot of fun to play against. My opponents were all very good sports though. :)
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7-0
7-2
7-0
7-0
1-7
7-1
says it all i think 8)
can we get a play by play for each game BrianGabe?
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Gabe used this deck? A combo deck won Nationals? Wow, this is huge news.
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lol because it's the first time a skilled player played a really good combo deck. Congrats GABE!!!! Big props homie!
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lol because it's the first time a skilled player played a really good combo deck. Congrats GABE!!!! Big props homie!
Not true...Kirk used a combo deck in 2007 and finished third after having one game with an awful draw. I used a combo deck back in 2005 (the original version of the deck Kirk used) but got very unlucky in the opening two rounds and lost those games. Ron Sias has been using combo decks in T2 for many years now (including the one that brought about the side battle ruling change). Props to Clift for refining this deck and Gabe for successfully piloting it, but it's not the first "good" combo deck.
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That's a shot to combo runners everywhere. Plenty of strong players have run them before, like the aforementioned Kirk and Justin.
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but they didn't win. And that in itself speaks loads. You can tell me all day so and so is great, but they didn't win it all did they. They were runners up or didn't even place.
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So you're saying a player or deck isn't great unless they win it all? Wow... show a little respect man...
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That doesn't make Kirk a bad player or Justin a bad player. Just because they didn't win with X deck at X tournament does not mean that they are not good.
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Winning it all at Nats isn't the only definition of greatness. I think that almost everyone would agree that Kirk and Justin are great T2 players.
I do find it interesting though that despite the popularity of T1 speed decks, Gabe was the first one to win Nats with one ('07). And despite the popularity of T2 combo decks, Gabe was the first one to win Nats with one as well ('09).
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Winning it all at Nats isn't the only definition of greatness. I think that almost everyone would agree that Kirk and Justin are great T2 players.
Though I do fit under that first definition also ;)
I also agree that winning alone does not make a player "great."
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I think what defines a great player starts with their conduct before, after, and during games, anything else is just gravy.
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I think what defines a great player starts with their conduct before, after, and during games, anything else is just gravy.
In that case, there is no way Justin should be considered a great player. You should see him after I beat him in anything...
Haha, just kidding bro. ;)
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In my younger, less mature days... ::)
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I think what defines a great player starts with their conduct before, after, and during games, anything else is just gravy.
whats redemption about.......? Fun & Fellowship!
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whats redemption about.......? Fun & Fellowship!
I fail to see how conduct before during and after matches is contrary to the Fun & Fellowship of Redemption? I would think sportsmanship is the key to Fun & Fellowship.
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I believe he was agreeing with your point. :)
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I believe he was agreeing with your point. :)
yes i was
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Oh ... hehe ... my bad :)
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Oh ... hehe ... my bad :)
no prob
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The deck is a lot of fun to play with, but probably not a lot of fun to play against. My opponents were all very good sports though. :)
I will agree with this. Clift beat me with (a similar) deck at nats in KC. It was interesting watching the deck combo off but afterards, it was pretty boring
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So you're saying a player or deck isn't great unless they win it all? Wow... show a little respect man...
+1
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Easy for Gabe to say. :)
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This deck is really cool. I had seen it on the boards before and realized what was going to happen on turn 3. However, I couldn't do anything about it. After Gabe rescued he started playing Solitaire and I was watching. I had Angel of the Lord which I was hoping to use to wreck the side battle (he didn't have 2k Horses on a guy yet so he would need initiative). However, I played it on the wrong guy. Anyway, he got the soft-lock going by only playing 2 copies of sin in the camp + 2 copies of Words of Discouragement. The only card I ended up with in my hand was Son of God, hoping to reveal/put-it-underneath to discard the SitC's. The problem was that after I did this I couldn't rescue anything since I didn't have heroes or evil characters in the 6 cards I had put on top.
Anyway, I won't say the deck is broken because Tyler beat it. I also think that a decent offensive draw could beat this deck as well because the defense can't really block. However, I will say that this is the easiest combo that I've seen somebody use successfully and it isn't really stopped by the new cards so I would expect something to happen to weaken a deck like this.
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Not stopped by the new cards?
Mayhem
Grapes of Wrath
Gates of Hell (you may have to discard a lot, but what can that offense do when you have about 20 generic demons who band each other?)
Philistine Outpost
New cards (territory class) that get rid of enhancements
Anywho, I was really hoping to get to play Gabe because my deck was a broken cisterns deck. ;D
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Not stopped by the new cards?
Mayhem - [/b] you have a point here. A well plaed mayhem can cause..ahem.. mayhem[/b]
Grapes of Wrath - if you get initiative to play it. A properly played SitC deck never gives you an opportunity to play this card
Gates of Hell (you may have to discard a lot, but what can that offense do when you have about 20 generic demons who band each other?) easy..it is called ET - AoCP. bye bye demons. And I have a version of SitC deck that uses Joshua the priest and Trumpet blast to clear a hole in those protection forts sooo, you block with your insane banding chain and I drop t-blast to shake the very gates of hell all the way to the d/c pile.
Philistine Outpost cant remember what this does
New cards (territory class) that get rid of enhancements this only works on a soft lock or if you have it already played before they place the SitC. If not, then you will never get to play your pretty territory class enhancement cards
Anywho, I was really hoping to get to play Gabe because my deck was a broken cisterns deck. ;D
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P.O. gets a Philly from the discsard pile by discrding an evi lcard from the draw pile.
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Ah, the twelve fingered Giant would cause some problems with this. My deck also has the passover and unleavened bread So I would just take a turn and put him under the draw pile then.
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And then I'd do it next turn. ;D Philistine outpost can do that EVERY time you attack. Which means garrison too.
And one of those generic demons would be wandering demon. If my demons are discarded, they go to the bottom. Then I get them back with gates of hell. Also, how are you going to play trumpet blast when gates of hell is set aside?
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is gated of hell set aside? I havent seen t hat part of it yet then.
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Yeah it is.
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Congrats Gabe for the nats win! :) Awesome job!!
Congrats Clift for the design! :)
Clift, did you ever think that the deck you played in your house at SE regionals would find its way to Cali and get 1st? That is so cool! :)
That deck is a beast, and if you don't know what's coming, you're toast, and if you do, it is still difficult if not impossible to stop.
Isn't it ironic Tyler beat it? :D
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Isn't it ironic Tyler beat it? :D
With the deck Tyler was using, I don't see it as irony as much as he knew what he was doing since he has played the deck so many times.
Clift, I have one thing to say: Next time you offer to let me bring a deck to Nats and use it, I'm grabbing the deck out of your hands and leaving. :D
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Yeah, it was crazy it came down to Kirk. If Kirk hadn't beat Tyler, he would have swept the tournament with an undefeated record.
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Isn't it ironic Tyler beat it? :D
With the deck Tyler was using, I don't see it as irony as much as he knew what he was doing since he has played the deck so many times.
Gotcha-that makes sense.
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Yeah, it was crazy it came down to Kirk. If Kirk hadn't beat Tyler, he would have swept the tournament with an undefeated record.
I think it's cool that the top 3 decks (Clift, Kirk, and Tyler) were all at the EC Regional tournament this year. So for all you guys out there who want a heads up on the top decks in T2 next year, remember to come to the EC Regional tournament :)
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I think it's cool that the past two National Champions in T2 2P have been the players who won the MN Type 2 Only tournament that year (and 3 years ago it was the player who took 2nd that won Nationals). So for anyone who wants a shot at winning Nationals, make sure to get to the MN Type 2 only tournament this year, likely to be either in February or March. :)
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+1 Bills T2 only local had about the same number of players as T2-2P did at Nationals! I will say that it's a little easier to do well when Justin isn't there to stomp you. ;)
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+1 Bills T2 only local had about the same number of players as T2-2P did at Nationals! I will say that it's a little easier to do well when Justin isn't there to stomp you. ;)
We are working on the date and are making sure Justin could make it. He was one of the reason we started the tournament. To give our MN good type 2 players some good competition.
I think it's cool that the top 3 decks (Clift, Kirk, and Tyler) were all at the EC Regional tournament this year. So for all you guys out there who want a heads up on the top decks in T2 next year, remember to come to the EC Regional tournament :)
I'm hoping a couple of those EC region boys could join us next year. Its a great mid season nationals tune up.
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+1 Bills T2 only local had about the same number of players as T2-2P did at Nationals! I will say that it's a little easier to do well when Justin isn't there to stomp you. ;)
I think because of the popularity of this tournament, I am going to host one in Ohio in the Spring. I'd like to give the players here more exposure to type 2 and hopefully convert some of these wayward type 1 players over to the Dark Side :maul: . But I am also seriously thinking of traveling up to this one next year as well.
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I don't know if he'll be able to do it again next year but Bill was very generous in helping cover my travel expenses in addition to offering free lodging for those who wanted to spend the night. :)
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Well Free lodging would have to be in the deal because I aint driving 10-12 hours there and back again on top of paying for a hotel room. lol that would break me
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Our church is pretty good about letting people stay overnight so that shouldn't be a problem. :) We also have showers and mattresses available to use.
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lol I wish it wasn't so far away from georgia :P
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grapes of wrath does hurt the deck b/c its another dominant you have to get rid of.
i remember at one time tyler would put glory of the lord in his deck on top of all of the others just so i couldnt take them all:)
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grapes of wrath does hurt the deck b/c its another dominant you have to get rid of.
i remember at one time tyler would put glory of the lord in his deck on top of all of the others just so i couldnt take them all:)
yes, but alot of people won't use Harvest Time in T2-2P.
Son of God
New Jerusalem
Grapes of Wrath
Angel of the Lord
Guardian
you can still wipe out that list.
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There are literally half a dozen ways to Combat the SitC deck. The problem is that no one plays with them (or no one plays them correctly against a SiTC deck):
Pot of Manna,
Wasting Diseases,
More than 5 good Doms,
jerusalem Tower,
Rain becomes Dust,
Gifts of the Magi (with another art like Lampstand up in the Temple, good luck putting all those cards up on top of my drawpile ;D )
CoM,
HHI,
I think there is a covenant that I cant find now that stops heros from fighting heros and EC's from fighting EC's, that would stop Cup of Wrath.
Gabriel
Hidden Treasures (I know Clift says that you should go after the Word of Discouragement, but with High Places, I think it just becomes so much easier to play the SiTC and those are the problematic cards. That is the Lock and if you dont get the Lock, you can deal with the Word of Discouragement. There are only 5 of them in there)
I am Grace if it is a Soft Lock. Also Forts like The Darkness are very problematic because if you can band to their EC's when they come for a rescue, you wipe them out. No SiTC deck uses Wall that I know of.
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Broken Cisterns
Amasai the Raider
The problem isn't that this deck can't be stopped... it's that if you don't draw one of the counters in the first 3-5 turns, gg sir.
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Pot of Manna, whoever is willing to waste a card in a deck, go ahead... good luck gettin 1 in 100 up early enough... unless you want to waste 3...
Wasting Diseases, eh... this one could pose a problem...
More than 5 good Doms, hahaha. worthless doms don't do you any good outside of playing this deck. Glory and HT? worthless.
jerusalem Tower, again, try to get it up...
Rain becomes Dust, who uses speed in T2 other than this deck? a few draws maybe, but not speed.
Gifts of the Magi (with another art like Lampstand up in the Temple, good luck putting all those cards up on top of my drawpile ;D ) good luck getting 3 out of 100 cards... that fast
CoM, I discard NJ. big deal.
HHI, I think I saw a Cov. of David... maybe not.
I think there is a covenant that I cant find now that stops heros from fighting heros and EC's from fighting EC's, that would stop Cup of Wrath. not that I know of. Pot of Manna...
Gabriel/Hidden/Amasai if you're looking for it... and even then, it will be difficult.
The problem isn't that this deck can't be stopped... it's that if you don't draw one of the counters in the first 3-5 turns, gg sir.
exactly.
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That's exactly right. The game Tyler won he opened with Hidden Treasures + Green Prophet. That game was also the longest it took me to get Claudia + ET all day - turn 6. The game was already over by then because Tyler knows what he's doing. Since Tyler is "top shelf" I'm sure that he would have ripped me apart even if the first few turns had worked out differently. His deck is a combo killer. It requires that you play perfectly and get a good draw. I did neither of those things in our game.
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Pot of Manna, whoever is willing to waste a card in a deck, go ahead... good luck gettin 1 in 100 up early enough... unless you want to waste 3...
Wasting Diseases, eh... this one could pose a problem...
More than 5 good Doms, hahaha. worthless doms don't do you any good outside of playing this deck. Glory and HT? worthless.
jerusalem Tower, again, try to get it up...
Rain becomes Dust, who uses speed in T2 other than this deck? a few draws maybe, but not speed.
Gifts of the Magi (with another art like Lampstand up in the Temple, good luck putting all those cards up on top of my drawpile ;D ) good luck getting 3 out of 100 cards... that fast
CoM, I discard NJ. big deal.
HHI, I think I saw a Cov. of David... maybe not.
I think there is a covenant that I cant find now that stops heros from fighting heros and EC's from fighting EC's, that would stop Cup of Wrath. not that I know of. Pot of Manna...
Gabriel/Hidden/Amasai if you're looking for it... and even then, it will be difficult.
The problem is that now will all the side battle cards you probably SHOULD consiter putting a few cups of manna (if not the entire POT) into each deck if you dont use side battles to do your thang. I hate the hand limit rule and hope if goes down in inglorious flames this season, but even so, I already have ideas how to make this deck viable without all the draws. And many of thes cards can still be used (and should be use) to counter this deck and many others.
btw a good sitc deck does not use NJ or SoG to d/c CoM and HHI is a good art that should easily fit in most decks. HT is not a wasted Dom in type 2 ( you just have to play it before the battle begins) and if you inlude HHI, J-tower, I am mercy, Gifts and either Gabe/ammasai/Treasures depending upon y or deck you should have no porblem pulling one or multiple of the stops.
Everyone acts like chiken little saying the sky is falling. It's just that you all havent been exposed to this deck. The more you play it, the more you will be able to beat it.
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I think it's cool that the top 3 decks (Clift, Kirk, and Tyler) were all at the EC Regional tournament this year. So for all you guys out there who want a heads up on the top decks in T2 next year, remember to come to the EC Regional tournament :)
Actually, Tyler and I didn't even bring the decks we played at regionals to nationals.
Kirk
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The problem is that now will all the side battle cards you probably SHOULD consiter putting a few cups of manna (if not the entire POT) into each deck if you dont use side battles to do your thang. I hate the hand limit rule and hope if goes down in inglorious flames this season, but even so, I already have ideas how to make this deck viable without all the draws. And many of thes cards can still be used (and should be use) to counter this deck and many others.
btw a good sitc deck does not use NJ or SoG to d/c CoM and HHI is a good art that should easily fit in most decks. HT is not a wasted Dom in type 2 ( you just have to play it before the battle begins) and if you inlude HHI, J-tower, I am mercy, Gifts and either Gabe/ammasai/Treasures depending upon y or deck you should have no porblem pulling one or multiple of the stops.
Everyone acts like chiken little saying the sky is falling. It's just that you all havent been exposed to this deck. The more you play it, the more you will be able to beat it.
sure, there's lots of side battle cards... but I've seen very few in T2, other than this deck, and a few Sword of the Lords in a green deck. I won't put in Cup of Manna... if you can convince alot of others to, then congrats to you.
I thought the hand limit rule was just in consideration?
make a deck viable against a SitC deck and other decks? good luck. a lot of cards will be wasted.
HHI is a good art, and easy to fit in. but why not discard NJ? what's it gonna do for you if you're ready to shut them down?
most T2 games there are PLENTY of souls to rescue... just not always right away. HT is a very scarce card in T2-2P. in Multi, it's slightly more common.
I am Mercy would be a waste. it'll be strictly for when you play a SitC deck, which aren't at all common anyway...
Gifts won't really stop it... just delay it. it can also be DoN'd. as I said earlier.
I don't think it's broken, just very difficult to beat. and if you can, congrats. but it's not worth putting in all those cards, IMO.
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sure, there's lots of side battle cards... but I've seen very few in T2, other than this deck, and a few Sword of the Lords in a green deck. I won't put in Cup of Manna... if you can convince alot of others to, then congrats to you.
I saw more side battle cards at Nats in T2 2P alone than most Redemption players have seen in their life. I might have had a fighting chance during one of my losses, as well as won a different game by a better margin, if I'd decided to include a couple copies of Pot of Manna.
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sure, there's lots of side battle cards... but I've seen very few in T2, other than this deck, and a few Sword of the Lords in a green deck. I won't put in Cup of Manna... if you can convince alot of others to, then congrats to you.
I saw more side battle cards at Nats in T2 2P alone than most Redemption players have seen in their life. I might have had a fighting chance during one of my losses, as well as won a different game by a better margin, if I'd decided to include a couple copies of Pot of Manna.
interesting. although, Nats was in Cali... :P
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Wraith, gifts of the magi completely shuts this down. If you also have that many cards in your hand, words of discouragement does nothing to you.
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sure, there's lots of side battle cards... but I've seen very few in T2, other than this deck, and a few Sword of the Lords in a green deck. I won't put in Cup of Manna... if you can convince alot of others to, then congrats to you.
I saw more side battle cards at Nats in T2 2P alone than most Redemption players have seen in their life. I might have had a fighting chance during one of my losses, as well as won a different game by a better margin, if I'd decided to include a couple copies of Pot of Manna.
interesting. although, Nats was in Cali... :P
Both side battle players were non-Californians.
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Wraith, gifts of the magi completely shuts this down. If you also have that many cards in your hand, words of discouragement does nothing to you.
and what do you think they'll get to do with all those cards? you just end your turn, and do it next turn, when they have no deck.
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Wraith, gifts of the magi completely shuts this down. If you also have that many cards in your hand, words of discouragement does nothing to you.
and what do you think they'll get to do with all those cards? you just end your turn, and do it next turn, when they have no deck.
Or DoN their GotM before you start playing enhancements in the evil side battle. ::)
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Or DoN their GotM before you start playing enhancements in the evil side battle. ::)
You cant. if they cant play dominants because your enhancement SA's have to complete, then you cant play dominants to stop them and that includes DoN. So they will jsut keep one of hte many Good Dom's they drew in their hand while you play 5 worthless WoD and then when they are done, even if they do DoN your Gifts, just make sure to put a Good Dom on top to reveal and place on bottom to scatter those SitC to the four corners of their discard pile.
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You cant. if they cant play dominants because your enhancement SA's have to complete, then you cant play dominants to stop them and that includes DoN. So they will jsut keep one of hte many Good Dom's they drew in their hand while you play 5 worthless WoD and then when they are done, even if they do DoN your Gifts, just make sure to put a Good Dom on top to reveal and place on bottom to scatter those SitC to the four corners of their discard pile.
It's really interesting that you're trying to enlighten me on how to play this deck. ::)
Obviously you'd have to use initiative, not 2KHorses, to begin playing in the side battle so you have a window to use DoN. You're correct that the opponent would get to play Dominants too.
You make a good point though. Overconfident people think they know how to beat this deck when really they don't understand intricately how it works.
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It's really interesting that you're trying to enlighten me on how to play this deck. ::)
Was it that obvious? ::) its just that I never really consider starting the sidebattle with initiative because its an unknown and too many bad things can happen in an unkonwn situation. True though, if they had gifts up and I couldn't DoN/shuffle it before hand, it is a risk I would have to take.
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I often started the side battle with initiative. It's tough enough to try to get ET + Claudia in the first few turns of the game. It's asking a lot to wait until you get a Horsied Archer too.
If you have the Horsied Archer, there's always Captured Ark to play in the side battle after you use Arrogance. That way you don't have to take any risks.
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So is this the first time in Redemption history a first place nats deck in constructed events (not booster/sealed) has not had the "normal dom staples?" (I know it had DON and CM, but still). ???
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Probably since those doms have been released