Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Game Play Variations => Topic started by: Smokey on June 26, 2011, 11:38:06 PM
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How to get involved:
1. Make a post showing your interest in participating.
2. Make note of the current banlist.
3. Join the Hamachi Group below and play games under the current banlist.
4. Make atleast one post per testing period detailing a game you had, give a breif discription of your and your opponent's deck (no deck sniping please, respect your opponent), and describe how the banlist effected your game, or could have improved your game. (Must be completed weekly to retain membership).
5. Next testing round you may post nominations for additions / removal of the banlist.
Hamachi Group:
Name: Redemption Banlist
Pass: Redemption
(Case Sensitive)
How the ban process works:
People can nominate cards to be banned, top nominations make the list.
After a testing period of how the game shifts from there, we can add / remove cards via more nominations.
On leave (9/13).
Nomination rules:
One post per person, I will only count your first post with cards listed in it.
Add a breif explaination (1-2 sentinces) about why the card should be banned.
Be respectful of other people's opinions, please no commenting on nominations.
*Note* All previously banned cards will be suspect the week following removal.
BANNED CARDS: (DO NOT PLAY WITH THESE CARDS IN YOUR DECK IF YOU ARE PLAYING UNDER BANLIST RULES)
- New Jerusalem
- Mayhem
- Lost Souls (2 and 3 lines)
- Falling Away
SUSPECT CARDS: (These cards are the closest to being banned, but haven't quite reached the turning point yet, this is also where cards that were banned are posted one period after removal)
- None
Current Members: (Please read #4 under "How to get involved" if you haven't already)
Smokey
Alex_Olijar
Arch Angel
Minister Polarus
Lamborghini_diablo
Son, I am dissapoint: (People who have lost membership)
BubbleBoy
Chronic Apathy
jimhartz
Rawrlolsauce
Ring Wraith
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Mayhem
A New Beginning
inb4thad
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Falling Away, Authority of Christ Promo, Goliath, Haman's Plot, New Jerusalem, The Garden Tomb, Thaddeus, Son of God, The Strong Angel, Captain of the Host, Mayhem, Isa--oops, nevermind.
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New Jerusalem.
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I think that it should be posted with a reason why
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Let's ban SoG but not NJ.
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Let's ban SoG but not NJ.
LOL effectively banning both... intriguing
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I nominate Mayhem and New Jerusalem.
Mayhem is a powerful card at all times, as are most dominants, but when it's drawn in your opening hand and you go first, your opponent will lose the game most of the time just from that one card. Besides that it's a major boon to speed and I despise speed :D
NJ is pretty obvious, but the main point is that it both contributes to soul drought by allowing you to get rid of 3 of your 7 cards, as well as removes almost all incentive to run anything but a speed deck (since SoG+NJ gets you 40% of the game all at once).
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Loving the pokemon vibe. Will post more tommorow.
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At the Type 2 Only back in February, a couple of us Elders discussed what a possible list would look like if we decided to ban cards. (Note, the discussion was completely hypothetical and we're not planning on banning any)
These were the top 5 cards that we all pretty much agreed should be out.
New Jerusalem
A New Beginning
2/3-Liner Lost Soul
Haman's Plot
Authority of Christ
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I nominate Mayhem and New Jerusalem.
Mayhem is a powerful card at all times, as are most dominants, but when it's drawn in your opening hand and you go first, your opponent will lose the game most of the time just from that one card. Besides that it's a major boon to speed and I despise speed :D
NJ is pretty obvious, but the main point is that it both contributes to soul drought by allowing you to get rid of 3 of your 7 cards, as well as removes almost all incentive to run anything but a speed deck (since SoG+NJ gets you 40% of the game all at once).
Consider this with Mayhem... you have Rain Becomes Dust and they use Mayhem.... they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Good way to slow them down as well.
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New Jerusalem - Makes it too easy to get to 5 and takes a lot of the fun away from both deckbuilding and play.
Thaddeus - Stops opponent from using his cards. Also makes Disciples decks pretty cookie-cutter.
The Garden Tomb - Stops opponent from using his cards. Still too powerful, even with all the counters to it now.
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I nominate Mayhem and New Jerusalem.
Mayhem is a powerful card at all times, as are most dominants, but when it's drawn in your opening hand and you go first, your opponent will lose the game most of the time just from that one card. Besides that it's a major boon to speed and I despise speed :D
NJ is pretty obvious, but the main point is that it both contributes to soul drought by allowing you to get rid of 3 of your 7 cards, as well as removes almost all incentive to run anything but a speed deck (since SoG+NJ gets you 40% of the game all at once).
Consider this with Mayhem... you have Rain Becomes Dust and they use Mayhem.... they would be shooting themselves in the foot. Good way to slow them down as well.
If it's done on the first turn, you won't have a chance to activate RBD.
Mayhem and NJ for sure.
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Thaddeus - Stops opponent from using his cards. Also makes Disciples decks pretty cookie-cutter.
Disciples make Disciples pretty cookie-cutter.
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Thaddeus - Stops opponent from using his cards. Also makes Disciples decks pretty cookie-cutter.
Disciples make Disciples pretty cookie-cutter.
Yeah, I suppose. What I was thinking is that with Thad, you pretty much want to use all 11 good disciples in your deck, and people don't typically put any other heroes in with them, making disciples offenses pretty much look the same. If it weren't for Thad, we might see a few offenses with like 5 or 6 disciples with other stuff, or Disciples splash decks. Maybe that wouldn't be much better, but at least it might take a little creativity to make a Disciples deck.
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I have 6 disciples in my t1.
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I have 6 disciples in my t1.
I have no disciples in my t1 deck ;)
I'm suprised more people haven't said Authority of Christ. I thought it would be right up with NJ and Mayhem.
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AoC isnt so bad anymore. There's enough ways around it now.
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Speed players don't like RBD. Burn it. Balanced players don't like Mayhem. Burn it.
-slightly modified quote from Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451
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Bans:
1. Mayhem- Mayhem is simply the best card in the game. A 1st turn Mayhem more often than not wins the game.
2. New Jerusalem - Causes games to end too fast.
3. Grapes of Wrath - too versatile. It can be AOTL, it can be pseudo-Martyr, it can get rid of the annoying blocker... it can do too much.
4. ANB - combos.
5. Haman's Plot - Lame cost, similar to ANB in that it's being banned for being stupid, not for being broken.
6. The Garden Tomb - Makes winning too easy and games too short.
Suspects:
1. Watchful Servant - Super win protected from common counters to single hero win strats.
2. Herod Phillip II - God block that is CBI endgame.
3. Asahel - incredibly versatile ability that can set up huge banding chains OR CBN BWers
4. Thaddeus - Super ability that is just so far reaching.
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AoC isnt so bad anymore. There's enough ways around it now.
Yeah, I almost nominated AoCP and AoTL, but they aren't as game-winningly powerful as they used to be.
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I would like to highlight that banning cards effectively regresses the game back to a simpler state of being. Reason: when the most powerful cards are banned then there will be new powerful cards (and human ingenuity will find new powerful combos). Ultimately, are you guys wanting the game to be reduced back to simple math? My 4/4 Mark is battling your 6/6 Judas. It is for this reason that I will continue to stand against banning both of the official and unofficial kind.
To me, talking about banning is just a pool of negativity and complaint. Look to the positive of powerful cards...the further development of this great game! I welcome the -1 punishment that I will inevitably receive from you. :P
I will stand EVEN IF I have to stand alone!!111!!!one!!11!! 8)
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I would like to highlight that banning cards effectively regresses the game back to a simpler state of being. Reason: when the most powerful cards are banned then there will be new powerful cards (and human ingenuity will find new powerful combos). Ultimately, are you guys wanting the game to be reduced back to simple math? My 4/4 Mark is battling your 6/6 Judas. It is for this reason that I will continue to stand against banning both of the official and unofficial kind.
To me, talking about banning is just a pool of negativity and complaint. Look to the positive of powerful cards...the further development of this great game! I welcome the -1 punishment that I will inevitably receive from you. :P
I will stand EVEN IF I have to stand alone!!111!!!one!!11!! 8)
Or we could just ban all the cards you used to win at nats, effectively erasing your trophy's meaning :P.
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hahahah, well played, but I regret to inform you that the neither the HoF or the ban list can contain my epicness! ::)
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I would like to highlight that banning cards effectively regresses the game back to a simpler state of being. Reason: when the most powerful cards are banned then there will be new powerful cards (and human ingenuity will find new powerful combos). Ultimately, are you guys wanting the game to be reduced back to simple math? My 4/4 Mark is battling your 6/6 Judas. It is for this reason that I will continue to stand against banning both of the official and unofficial kind.
To me, talking about banning is just a pool of negativity and complaint. Look to the positive of powerful cards...the further development of this great game! I welcome the -1 punishment that I will inevitably receive from you. :P
I will stand EVEN IF I have to stand alone!!111!!!one!!11!! 8)
I think this is a little bit of a pessimistic view. Banning cards simply changes the meta. Let me compare this to competitive pokemon battling in the 4th generation:
During the 4th gen, early competitive battling centered entirely around what was commonly known as the dual dragon core - building a team of 6 pokemon around the strengths and weaknesses of the two main pokemon who shared the dragon typing. This occured because a certain dragon type pokemon, garchomp, was absurdly broken for the meta. He had just enough speed to attack first against almost every potential defensive counter to him, an absurd attack stat, and a special ability that comboed him very well with other commonly used pokemon. Because the strength of Garchomp and dual dragon cores, almost every team was forced to carry 1-2 dedicated dragon counters on a 6 pokemon team. In terms of pokemon, the only real counter to a dragon typing at the time was a steel typed pokemon.
So, because of the strength of Garchomp and dragon cores, almost every team carried Garchomp + a dragon + 1-2 steel type pokemon. This left only 2 spots for "diversity" within teams. Because of this and the relative strength of Garchomp, it was decided that Garchomp would be banned in order to promote diversity within the meta. Once Garchomp was banned, the meta improved drastically. New strategies became viable because it was not required to carry a dedicated Garchomp counter.
That's what banning could potentially do. That's what this thread is about. Determing what's OP, testing without it, and see how it goes and making informed decisions about it.
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On a more related note, MTG just announced the ban of two cards. Why? EVERYONE was using it. At a recent Grand Prix, 88% of the decks that made it past day one (quals) had at least one copy, and all top 8 finishers had four copies. The other card had similar statistics.
Now, MTG is a different game, with a different meta, but one strategy having such dominance is something to think about. Thus, the immense variety in cards that are offered up to the banning gods humors me. At Regionals, I played against six decks (five at top tables), and also played against six different strategies. I saw every offensive brigade (maaaaybe not White. I know I did, I forget which category), and most of the defensive brigades. There's no need for any banhammering, especially with the new set coming out.
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SK, you're just talking about heroes and enhancements here. Did you go up against anyone who wasn't using SoG and NJ? I think 99.9% of decks that have ever placed in the top 10 at any tournament since NJ came out have used both those cards, at least in T1 categories.
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If you'll notice, Wizards hasn't banned Lands yet either, and they're a larger percentage of one's deck than dominants.
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if there was a land that said 'deal 8 damage when this land comes into play', it would be banned.
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if there was a land that said 'deal 8 damage when this land comes into play', it would be banned.
Because it would result in a stagnant meta. We don't have a stagnant meta (at least in T1)
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that depends on how you define stagnant. type 1 is dominated by speed and dominants and has become the same cookie cutter designs rolling the top tournaments. if anything, type 2 is less stagnant than type 1 due to dominants not playing a huge role in overall gameplay, and the sheer size of decks coupled with running multiples of the same card do not guarantee exact mirror matches all that often.
sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
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The issue with the meta today is that it's overcentralized to one main deck styles with two different versions.
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sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
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i realize that. essentially proves sir nobody's point.
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Never posted my bans.
New Jerusalem - Promotes speed far too much, takes away pristeige from Son of God.
Falling Away - Possibly the most Anti-fun card ever, takes away all satisfaction of the sucessful rescue.
Mayhem - First turn Mayhem is OP.
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AoC isnt so bad anymore. There's enough ways around it now.
Yeah, I almost nominated AoCP and AoTL, but they aren't as game-winningly powerful as they used to be.
AocP is still terrible. The primary reason protect forts were created was this one card. You pretty much have to have a "battle extender" to get around it, like Herod's Temple, Writ, Charms, Herod's Treachery, Gates, etc. If you are playing an OT theme with no magicians, you are basically going to give your opponent a free one if they play it.
I nominate NJ (so silly that you play 2 of your 50 cards to rescue 2 of your 5 LS)
Mayhem (for reasons listed before)
Falling Away/Guardian (introduces a luck factor in a race to get them first, encourages speed)
AoCP (ridiculously powerful card. If a card was printed that said "If used by (pick a theme), discard all ECs in battle. CBN" everyone would be "That's way OP!" But AoCP has no theme requirement and can hit territories too. And it is in a brigade with a costless play-first character)
Plot (ridiculously powerful, and just silly IMHO)
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sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
That's sad. It just seems to have taken the fun out of the game.
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Never posted my bans.
New Jerusalem - Promotes speed far too much, takes away pristeige from Son of God.
Falling Away - Possibly the most Anti-fun card ever, takes away all satisfaction of the sucessful rescue.
Mayhem - First turn Mayhem is OP.
Lets Ban GoYS while were at it because we don't want some new kid getting it and going "this is a great card." Then when they find out it does nothing they say "Oh Noes."
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This is not meant to be a suggestion for cards that will actually be banned. The purpose of this thread is to create and maintain a banlist for people who wish to participate in Type Ban, which is a lot of people.
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sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
It's been said before, I think by Bryon, but it's worth repeating... there are no "new" themes in the new set. Only existing themes are are being expanded and pumped up.
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Yeah, Canaanites are not new. You just forgot to play with Bera King of Sodom, but I bet you played with at least one Canaanite on occasion.
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King of Tyrus? Nah. No one uses him.
Actually, I have used Bera, King of Sodom in my self-capture Raiders' Camp deck.
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That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
Wha? Is Rob printing more cards than I know about?
Tin 20:
offense: existing
defense: existing
Tin 21:
offense: existing
defense: existing
Tin 22:
offense: existing
defense: existing
Tin 23:
offense: existing
defense: existing (Canaanites)
Tin 24:
offense: existing
defense: existing
Tin 25:
offense: existing
defense: existing (Canaanites)
It seems to me that all these tins are giving people more different ways to use existing themes. The Canaanites is the closest thing to a new theme in this set. But even that theme gives a way to use a bunch of old cards, effectively adding diversity to the game without having to print as many new cards.
Say I'm building a green prophets deck. Do I include cards from the NT prophets subtheme? Do I include cards from the 2011 set? Do I include any particular defenses that might work especially well with prophets? All the green prophets subthemes work with cards that specify "green prophets" so they cannot be called new themes. Just a way to add variety to existing themes.
But, there will always be people who complain. I shouldn't be surprised.
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AHA! MORE SPOILERS! The cards exist. I knew it! All you haters out there who think that the cards were only a metaphor, or in some temporal rift, I was right!
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That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
Wha? Is Rob printing more cards than I know about?
Tin 20:
offense: existing (Was really small and obscure before, is now a confirmed subtheme)
defense: existing
Tin 21:
offense: existing (New Subtheme)
defense: existing
Tin 22:
offense: existing
defense: existing (New Subtheme)
Tin 23:
offense: existing
defense: existing (Canaanites)
Tin 24:
offense: existing
defense: existing (Exsisting, but people used it alot less than Canaanites if you counted KoT)
Tin 25:
offense: existing
defense: existing (Canaanites)
It seems to me that all these tins are giving people more different ways to use existing themes. The Canaanites is the closest thing to a new theme in this set. But even that theme gives a way to use a bunch of old cards, effectively adding diversity to the game without having to print as many new cards.
Say I'm building a green prophets deck. Do I include cards from the NT prophets subtheme? Do I include cards from the 2011 set? Do I include any particular defenses that might work especially well with prophets? All the green prophets subthemes work with cards that specify "green prophets" so they cannot be called new themes. Just a way to add variety to existing themes.
But, there will always be people who complain. I shouldn't be surprised.
I put new in quotes for a reason, but I outlined what I defined as a "new" theme under your definition.
Just to prove your other statement, Clearly Green Prophets (which have been printed in EVERY SET) needed alot of new cards.
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"Clearly Green Prophets?" Is this one of the new/old themes? Are they printed on transparency paper?
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I like the addition on the theme on imbalanced heroes.
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sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
Just to prove your other statement, Clearly Green Prophets (which have been printed in EVERY SET) needed alot of new cards.
I'm so confused. Which way do you want it Smokey? Do you want us to add to the existing themes or do you want us to print new themes. Unless I'm reading this wrong your complaining about both...
I like the addition on the theme on imbalanced heroes.
At least sauce will be happy since we're printing a new more OP version of Thad in every tin. ::)
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sir nobody brought up an interesting point this last weekend at MO state: instead of creating a slew of new themes and abandoning old ones less and less, we should be making existing themes DEEPER to encourage diversity and greater creativity with deck building.
That isn't going to happen, there are atleast 4 "new" themes in the new set alone.
Just to prove your other statement, Clearly Green Prophets (which have been printed in EVERY SET) needed alot of new cards.
I'm so confused. Which way do you want it Smokey? Do you want us to add to the existing themes or do you want us to print new themes. Unless I'm reading this wrong your complaining about both...
I want more themes to be playable so the metagame doesn't get insta-centralized the moment a new set comes out, which happens almost every set.
I don't think anyone can argue Prophets haven't been playable since Hidden Treasures came out, and they still continue to get loads of new cards.
Power creep doesn't help either, and theres a ton of that in every set also.
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Prophets will probably get cards every set for as long as Redemption lasts. Mostly because there are still a lot of big name prophets that can be reprinted, which is good in two ways: 1) art can be reused provided its good enough, which saves Cactus money, 2) Recognizable characters promote the fun of the game to younger kids. Also, at least half the Bible was written by Prophets. It's just the nature of the game.
And I'm not sure why the subthemes that are strengthened should be a source of complaints (I still don't see any of them as being new, as I can think of characters in every theme or subtheme in the tins that have been used more than a little). All of the "subthemes" can mesh well together with other subthemes, or they can stand on their own. I'd say that would help deck variety and creativity.
I assure you more themes will be playable; whether or not one theme dominates and the meta becomes centralized remains to be seen, but there was a lot of playtesting that went into this set, and a lot of changes were made to make the various strategies balanced among each other. If it turns out that we were wrong, then that will truly be unfortunate, but I hope you'll at least give the new set a chance before assuming it's going to ruin the game...again...
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Prophets will probably get cards every set for as long as Redemption lasts. Mostly because there are still a lot of big name prophets that can be reprinted, which is good in two ways: 1) art can be reused provided its good enough, which saves Cactus money, 2) Recognizable characters promote the fun of the game to younger kids. Also, at least half the Bible was written by Prophets. It's just the nature of the game.
And I'm not sure why the subthemes that are strengthened should be a source of complaints (I still don't see any of them as being new, as I can think of characters in every theme or subtheme in the tins that have been used more than a little). All of the "subthemes" can mesh well together with other subthemes, or they can stand on their own. I'd say that would help deck variety and creativity.
I assure you more themes will be playable; whether or not one theme dominates and the meta becomes centralized remains to be seen, but there was a lot of playtesting that went into this set, and a lot of changes were made to make the various strategies balanced among each other. If it turns out that we were wrong, then that will truly be unfortunate, but I hope you'll at least give the new set a chance before assuming it's going to ruin the game...again...
I understand a large portion of the bible and the game will always be dedicated to prophets, I just don't think they should be getting the dedicated slots when you could print more mixed theme prophets to make more people happy (and there was a decent amount of that).
Prophets aren't the only cards that need reprints, Goliath had no SA until this year and I don't think anyone complains that his art is the same.
Luke isn't even a Luke hero, and he's far more famous among little kids than some of the reprints in this set.
Even if they aren't new, other themes should be getting slots first. Syrians haven't gotten a single card in three sets, and after this set Canaanites will be more powerful.
I'm trying to be optimistic about the new set, and from what I've seen it's a good set even if it wasn't what I would like printed. Past experience is still telling me there will be one theme decks and everyone will be playing the same thing yet again.
And there are some concerning cards being printed, any one of them 'could' become like Thadd.
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And there are some concerning cards being printed, any one of them 'could' become like Thadd.
Possible, but I don't think there are any cards that will tie an opponent's hands quite like Thad does. And Bryon gave permission for us to blame him if anything gets out of hand... ;)
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And there are some concerning cards being printed, any one of them 'could' become like Thadd.
Possible, but I don't think there are any cards that will tie an opponent's hands quite like Thad does. And Bryon gave permission for us to blame him if anything gets out of hand... ;)
I didn't mean like him in ability, I meant in how he has dominated the metagame.
We'll see I guess, Hopefully this set will turn out as expected :).
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Syrians haven't gotten a single card in three sets, and after this set Canaanites will be more powerful.
The Syrians got a new card as a State promo this year. Plus, the Canaanites played a bigger role in the Bible than did the Syrians.
Gray got a lot of new cards in the last few years, and, more importantly, there are SO many tins with gray in them already that I sometimes have a hard time ensuring that there are not two gray tins at the same booster drafting table. Introducing yet another tin with gray would not have made that even more difficult.
So, no new gray cards this year. The 6 tins cover 5 evil brigades. Two tins with black. Zero orange and Zero gray. The other brigades each get one tin.
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Syrians haven't gotten a single card in three sets, and after this set Canaanites will be more powerful.
The Syrians got a new card as a State promo this year. Plus, the Canaanites played a bigger role in the Bible than did the Syrians.
Then why didn't you address that earlier? As is, we have a theme that hasn't been touched other than two character promos for almost 3-4 years. If you want this game to diversify, why not focus on themes you have already actively made cards for? Syrians were so much closer to being playable than Canaanites were.
But, as has been Redemption tradition, I'm sure several smallish, non-competetive themes will be given exhorbitant boosts in an attempt to make them playable, but it will only result in the centralization of the meta due to the lack of depth in current themes.
Look at priests. An entire new brigade became one of them best almost immediately after it was released. Teal was featured in many decks in its first year, and hasn't looked back. You might say "but, that was splash". You would be right. But that doesn't change the fact that you went from a brigade/theme that DIDN'T exist to a brigade/theme in the top deck, even placing nationally.
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If you want this game to diversify, why not focus on themes you have already actively made cards for? Syrians were so much closer to being playable than Canaanites were.
Did you read what I just posted about gray?
The game is pretty diverse, and is getting moreso with each new set. There are a lot more playable decks now than there were before Priests released. If you think that every TCG always has a dozen decks that are equally effective in tournaments, you do not have a very broad view of TCGs. There is always a deck (or two) that seem to be the best at any given point in time. Redemption suffers from having a more stagnant card pool. That is, players have 12 months (instead of 3 or 4 like in other TCGs) to determine what is the "best deck," and then as that deck gains victories, it becomes more popular.
As for complaining about why Teal was made strong right away (the same could be said for silver when it realeased, and disciples when they released, and Genesis after FooF), why bother making cards if they are not going to be playable right out of the gate?
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People use defense?
Oh wait, I forgot, you're from California...
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I think that is why a CA player won sealed deck at nationals last year. He was the only player who remembered HOW to use a defense. :)
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If you want this game to diversify, why not focus on themes you have already actively made cards for? Syrians were so much closer to being playable than Canaanites were.
Did you read what I just posted about gray?
The game is pretty diverse, and is getting moreso with each new set. There are a lot more playable decks now than there were before Priests released. If you think that every TCG always has a dozen decks that are equally tournament worthy, you do not have a very broad view of TCGs. Add to that the fact that Redemption has both offenses and defenses in the same deck, and you get exponentially more combinations of cards possible.
I did see the rest of your post, I was just address the part about Syrians. I understand why there is no gray this year. I don't understand why no Syrians were in TEXP. or Disciples. Two sets that focused on complimenting themes.
I'm not really sure what your definition of "playable" is. I've played 11 t-1 player Regional games in two different Regionals this year. I saw 3 TGT decks, 5 Disciple decks, a priest deck, a prophet deck, an angel deck. On defense, I saw 2 standalones, a babylonian, 3 Philistine, 2 Pharisee, an Egyptian, and two I can't remember.
If your definition of playable is "largely centralized around 2 offenses and the defenses that compliment/defeat those 2 offenses", then yeah, Redemption has many plyable themes. You make a distinction just tournament worthy... I'm not really sure why. What kind of TCG says they have cards that "are playable, but not tournament worthy"???
I have this car in my driveway. It runs, but there aren't any seats. So what is the point of it running?
I just want Redemption to be diverse in reality. I don't see what the point is in pulling wool over our eyes and saying that it is by using technicalities of playable vs. tournament worthy. The fact of the matter is that Redemption is and has been largely centralized for about 2-3 years (and before that, but I wasn't as active in the meta so I don't really know it before). The problem is no one sees it as a problem because there exists a old legend of the centralization of FBTN decks. Just because it isn't that bad doesn't mean it's not bad.
Edit: I wasn't necessarily complaining about Teal. I was complain about the philosophy of power creep. When something new comes out, it's like it has to come out better than stuff before it or else no one will switch to it. IMO, that ruins games, and already has messed with Redemption a lot.
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If you want this game to diversify, why not focus on themes you have already actively made cards for? Syrians were so much closer to being playable than Canaanites were.
Did you read what I just posted about gray?
The game is pretty diverse, and is getting moreso with each new set. There are a lot more playable decks now than there were before Priests released. If you think that every TCG always has a dozen decks that are equally tournament worthy, you do not have a very broad view of TCGs. Add to that the fact that Redemption has both offenses and defenses in the same deck, and you get exponentially more combinations of cards possible.
My definition of Playable = Can be used in the current metagame effectively, which I'm assuming you defined as tournament worthy.
Every card in the game is "playable" but if it isn't used, that doesn't matter.
Exponentially more combinations, and yet only one is a top deck.
Considering there is one enhancement in the game that does anything different when used by a Syrian, Laban being printed did nothing for a Syrian Defense's viability.
His only use is with a Genesis offense, and even there he isn't very useful since using his ability take away the abilities of Benjamin and Zebulun.
Instaposted by alex saying exactly the same things pretty much o_O
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Laban's best use is as a magician in a Pharisee defense.
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Ring Wraith is only saying that beings I told him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Ring Wraith is only saying that beings I told him. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess you could say Ring Wraith...
8)
Is more like the Mouth of Sawrlolsauce!
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
No... that was awful.
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I just want Redemption to be diverse in reality. I don't see what the point is in pulling wool over our eyes and saying that it is by using technicalities of playable vs. tournament worthy. The fact of the matter is that Redemption is and has been largely centralized for about 2-3 years (and before that, but I wasn't as active in the meta so I don't really know it before). The problem is no one sees it as a problem because there exists a old legend of the centralization of FBTN decks. Just because it isn't that bad doesn't mean it's not bad.
Centralized decks arn't really a problem because Redemption has diversified, they are are a problem because the drawing is out of control. Infact diversifing acts to deturs centralized decks.
The game is pretty diverse, and is getting moreso with each new set. There are a lot more playable decks now than there were before Priests released. .
Your right that a lot of the new cards have made old cards useful and that there a number of viable strategies to play. But not mutiple tournament winning caliber strategies. The problem is that, as you said in your post earlier, there will always be 1-2 top decks. Therefore the fact that Redemption diversifies is somewhat misleading (I don't mean that in a bad way). Basically what I am getting at is that I would say that the pre priests e meta was more diverse and that you could almost win with anything. In 2005 I played a straight white straight brown deck at regionals. The top decks a faced were The Quadrates, SirNobodys, Slinkards, and other good players from minnesota. The quadrates was the only deck I had played all day with no defense (literally, he had no defense except writ and doms), the deck was basically the last version of three nails conversion. It was a nice deck, but again there was no one else with a deck like it
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There is more my compter doesn't let me type that much.
......because it didn't work well all the time. He had to depend on drawing dominants. All he had access to was FBTN heores, aocp, doms with reach and prosperity to help him draw them out. Today, the reason why people play speed decks is because they are so reliable and speed decks are so reliable because they out race your opponent. Its really a broken deck type, especially broken in Redemption because of how the game works. Anyway Tim had a BTN deck with some purple and a cbn capture defense with brown, black and pg to abuse raiders camp. Slinkard had a straight Silver offense with a nice assyrian defense that placed second. Also there was a nice red deck run by Joushua Heys brother Joel. The point is that there was a lot more diversity in the meta then, and therefore the game was more fun to play. That's just my observations, and I know that you understand being that you played much earlier then my time. :)
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_mmBw3uzPnJI%2FS_5HhhervgI%2FAAAAAAABSh0%2F_R1AgYtwWlA%2Fs1600%2FHaters_Gonna_Hate_17.jpg&hash=2895624f3e1f60dcf8438e18722ee98f0d984701)
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I understand why there is no gray this year. I don't understand why no Syrians were in TEXP. or Disciples. Two sets that focused on complimenting themes.
In Disciples, we went with N.T. themes for gray. We thought that would make sense to players. :)
In TEXP, we limited ourselves to good looking art. There wasn't much of that available for Syrians. There was plenty of quality art for Pharisees, and they also needed help at the time, so we went with Pharisees.
Trust me, I understand your frustration. But I think we going to continue to have some of these issues because of (1) how long we have to wait between sets, and (2) how few cards we can print in each set.
I have hundreds of card ideas on my computer, complete with art, references, etc. I actually sent rough drafts of the next three sets to Rob about a month ago. I wish we could accelerate the process, get a bigger playtesting team (not a bigger elder team, just a couple more playtesters) so we can turn out 3 sets per year and still test them all before printing, and have a card pool that changes/grows every 4 months, like other games. I'm pretty sure that some of the other playtesters feel the same way. But we are limited by how much cash Cactus can spare. Remember that Redemption only generates about a quarter of Cactus' income, but takes about three-quarters of Rob's time. It is not worth it for Cactus to produce cards more often than once a year. We must be patient. :)
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Sounds like someone needs an intern.
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I actually sent rough drafts of the next three sets to Rob about a month ago.
Inb4 no Syrians in any of them.
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actually, mtg works 4 blocks ahead, so about 4 years and 12 expansions ahead total. i also love how they codename their expansions:
2011 - 2012 ("Shake" block):
"Shake", "Rattle", "Roll"
2012 - 2013 ("Hook" block):
"Hook", "Line", "Sinker"
2013 - 2014 ("Friends" block):
"Friends", "Romans", "Countrymen"
2014 - 2015 ("Huey" block):
"Huey", "Dewey", "Louie"
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I wish we could accelerate the process, get a bigger playtesting team (not a bigger elder team, just a couple more playtesters) so we can turn out 3 sets per year and still test them all before printing, and have a card pool that changes/grows every 4 months, like other games.
MD's playgroup has been waiting for such an opportunity, we feel so disconnected from the rest of the community, and even more so with many not able to make it to Nats this year...we would love to be able to contribute....
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Just throwing my name out there as a volunteer. I've been able to think outside the box as evidenced by stuff like my Eleazar's Sword combo, and I've had good results at high level tournies (3rd and 2nd at t2 only [only lost to Gabe] in 2p, multiple state (MN, IA) wins and placements in different events, decent Regionals placing (2nd at NC [only lost to John Earley] in t1 2p, top three in at least one other category I believe). Essentially what I'm saying is that I'm able to find weird combos in addition to recognizing the best strategies in all events, but most notably in t1 2p, t2 2p, and teams.
And I've been given the last couple sets anyway, so I got to play with them some. But my insight went to waste ;_;.
Oh, and I live in MN.... so there's plenty of other good players to test them against :angel:
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Sauce doesn't really see any of the other playtesters regularly. We could do quite a chunk of playtesting together each month if we were both playtesters.
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We here in AL could playtest as the majority of my group lives under my roof lol.
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We here in AL could playtest as the majority of my group lives under my roof lol.
Same here, except my roof covers a dorm. I'd like to see a statement from Rob about community support for this sort of thing.
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get a bigger playtesting team (not a bigger elder team, just a couple more playtesters) so we can turn out 3 sets per year and still test them all before printing
As usual, I'm always up for playtesting. I believe RDT and maybe a few other elders already want me to be one. ;)
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Maybe for two-three sets could be pumped out virtually. so cactus doesn't lose money.
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Don't listen to Ring Wraith, he played a 105 card Watchful Servant deck in multi. He's crazy and willing to do anything, you don't need play testers like that. Same with Lambo, he puts all the draw 2 play next enhancements in every deck. He loves them.
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It's rude to volunteer yourself for a position that isn't being offered. Did no one get the jist of his post?
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Maybe for two-three sets could be pumped out virtually. so cactus doesn't lose money.
^This. I'll suggest the idea to lp670sv. Though I don't think the problem is that Cactus is losing money, it's the time:cash ratio.
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Let's just rename this thread Shout out the name of your playgroup.
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I felt like being productive, and may not be on tomorrow so I updated this a day early.
NOTE: You can still post bans for this testing period for the rest of today and tomorrow.
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Ban list:
Gabe
Tim Maly
All of the Alstads
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Why not ban thad?
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Why not ban thad?
Because he wasn't voted for and isn't overly good in T1?
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TB Game report:
I played against Red. The absence of Mayhem allowed both of us to be more forthcoming with our drawing, which balanced out any pacing issues no NJ may have otherwise caused. No NJ allowed more strategic and immediate use of SoG which shaped the game in a major way. Soul drought was never a factor, and the game was won with strategy rather than brute force. I was very pleased with the absence of NJ and Mayhem.
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cept at end you had no souls due to my slightly stupid playing of soul manipulatly doms.
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TB Game report:
I played against Red. The absence of Mayhem allowed both of us to be more forthcoming with our drawing, which balanced out any pacing issues no NJ may have otherwise caused. No NJ allowed more strategic and immediate use of SoG which shaped the game in a major way. Soul drought was never a factor, and the game was won with strategy rather than brute force. I was very pleased with the absence of NJ and Mayhem.
Would you say your that you drew out faster or slower compared to standard play?
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Slightly slower, but that due to 100% of my drawing cards being the bottom 10 cards.
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Game Report:
I played Nick (in several games). Overall I think the lack of Mayhem and NJ greatly increased the fun aspect of the game. It was now not so easy to wipe out 2 of the Lost Souls from your deck (still possible with Burial and SoG, but you only get 1 point for that instead of 2). I played with multiple different decks and found that themes that are normally sub-par actually competed fairly well.
Overall, I'd suggest banning three (I guess technically four) additional cards.
- Falling Away
This card is essentially a "free block" in many cases. In a worse way than Christian Martyr, though, because you are letting your opponent win for a moment, and then taking that win away. also, while CM can only hit one hero, FA can stop a giant band. IN addition to these problems, it often eats up at least 2 cards slots in many decks, one for including it and one for countering it. - Lost Souls ("Two-Liner" & "Three-Liner")
Again, another free block. When combined with Son of God, Falling Away, or Burial, Hormah, the "Shuffler" Lost Soul, and various other cards this card easily stops opponents in their tracks for a turn. It's a card including in many top decks, one of the few non-dominant cards that can be said about. - Chariots of Fire
This card is included in practically every deck as a way to extend offense past the point of no return. In combination with cards like Asher and Micah, or even things such as Herod's Temple, it allows a deck to go on practically forever. As much as I like doing that, any card that finds its way into every deck needs to be taken down a notch.
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Game Report:
As stated above, played several games with Arch Angel. Nj and Mayhem being gone helped make the pace of the game be slower and more enjoyable. I ended up pooling SoG in my hand almost every game waiting for the 2-liner to be drawn so I wouldn't get locked out of a rescue, which was bothersome. I noticed that forced draw and deck discard offense / defense combo is extremely powerful because of the slower game pace and I feel it needs toning down.
Suggested Bans:
1. Lost Souls (2 and 3 lines)
Pooling SoG in your hand isn't fun, especially when you could use it strategically on another soul, or defensively.
2. Falling Away
Anti-fun, Eats card slots just to counter it in both Lampstand and GoYS.
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Ws and HP are too conditional to be banned. Besides the ban list, in theory, is supposed to encourage strategy.
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I will second the recent votes for 2/3 liner LS and Falling Away. I think that with this, only 4 cards are banned (5 I guess, including Guardian), but it will greatly increase the strategy and enjoyability of games.
However, I am concerned with what soulseeker hinted at earlier: That as the cards deemed "broken" are banned, then that makes newer cards the "most broken" and therefore people start requesting that they get banned as well.
Personally I think that no characters or enhancements should get the banhammer for now. AoCP is not as powerful when you don't have NJ in your deck, since you now have one more soul to rescue. And as for certain characters being called out (WS and HP II), before banning them, see if there is a meta adjustment first. Only a handful of players have even played Type Ban, and if forced draw/Herods/WS decks are the best, then there will be adjustments in future Type Ban decks to account for that.
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I don't like Iron Pan. Can we ban that?
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Fair enough, I knew I was jumping the gun slightly... I was concerned about it being an online category in which there is no time limit to make super defensive decks aswell but I guess we'll see what happens.
I don't like Iron Pan. Can we ban that?
Yes, infact the entire new set is banned for atleast a few more weeks.
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I don't like Iron Pan. Can we ban that?
Yes, infact the entire new set is banned for atleast a few more weeks.
Dang, I was totally planning to play the new set on RTS this week, and bringing it to Nats so I didn't have to buy it there. >:(
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SK, you're just talking about heroes and enhancements here. Did you go up against anyone who wasn't using SoG and NJ? I think 99.9% of decks that have ever placed in the top 10 at any tournament since NJ came out have used both those cards, at least in T1 categories.
I placed 3rd in T2 2p at nationals last year without SoG or NJ.
I also won EC Regionals 2 years ago in T2 2p without NJ.
I have placed in the top 5 of countless local, district, state, and regional tournaments in T1 2p without NJ (basically every time I play with a defensive deck).
Kirk
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That Gabe guy won nats without SOG.
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That Gabe guy won nats without SOG.
When? You can look at all of his Nats winning decks for T1 2p and T2 2p in the Completed Decks forum and they all contain Son of God.... Not taking anything away from his victories, just being nit picky. :)
Kirk
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Combo decks shouldn't count.
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Huh. I was pretty sure he didn't use any dominants in his Sin in the Camp deck in 2009, but I can't find that deck list anywhere.
EDIT:
O SNAP SON I FOUND IT. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/complete-decks/se-regionals-type-2-2-player-1st-place-(modified)/msg264192/#msg264192) Isn't this the same deck Gabe used? Hah! I was right for once.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
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That Gabe guy won nats without SOG.
When?
With Clift's (RTSManiac's) Speedcamp deck at CA Nats in 2009. You, Kirk, are the guy who took down Tyler for me to let me slide into 1st place. Thanks for that. ;)
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On a more on-topic note, for those of you who wish to remain part of the banlist pleace make sure you post a game summary and your nominations for this testing period.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sup?
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Any reason why my post was deleted?
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Any reason why my post was deleted?
The one about Iron Pan is still there, unless you're referring to something else.
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A successfully fun type that had a ban list was NW style (banned all doms). Whatever happen to it?
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Any reason why my post was deleted?
The one about Iron Pan is still there, unless you're referring to something else.
I made a joke about Gabe looking like Jesus. Apparently that's not allowed here?
A successfully fun type that had a ban list was NW style (banned all doms). Whatever happen to it?
It's still around. I still haven't seen a full list of rules for that. I think the decks have to be balanced too.
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Type NW has a LOT of other rules. This is for people that like T1, but just want to enjoy a more diverse and strategic meta that banning certain cards brings.
I have not played this period because I have been without internet at my house for a while. I can only get on at work, and I can't download RTS here.
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Type NW has a LOT of other rules. This is for people that like T1, but just want to enjoy a more diverse and strategic meta that banning certain cards brings.
I have not played this period because I have been without internet at my house for a while. I can only get on at work, and I can't download RTS here.
Two week testing periods, new one hasn't started yet.
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Wow, has it not been two weeks? Time is crawling for me!
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Wow, has it not been two weeks? Time is crawling for me!
In two days next testing period starts.
I am dissapoint in members who haven't posted a game report / bans for this week.
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Give it some time. Usually when these things are set up, three people sign up and one person updates, so we're already doing better than usual.
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I haven't built a deck yet Smokester. Care to play a game tommorow?
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Updated with current testing period and bans.
Alex_Olijar didn't have time to post a game report yesterday, but since he gave me his feedback and bans I'll allow him to stay a member for now :maul:.
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chariot of fire? lolwut? That card is balanced.
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chariot of fire? lolwut? That card is balanced.
Be respectful of other people's opinions, please no commenting on nominations.
Thread rule.
Chariots of Fire
This card is included in practically every deck as a way to extend offense past the point of no return. In combination with cards like Asher and Micah, or even things such as Herod's Temple, it allows a deck to go on practically forever. As much as I like doing that, any card that finds its way into every deck needs to be taken down a notch.
Arch Angel's reasoning.
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Yeah, I played, and I sucked.
I agree with Chariot - there's other ways to recur heroes anyway now, so it's not as needed imo.
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Without discussion this thing will get nowhere. Pokemon discusses any pokemon they wish to make uber(Ban) so what's wrong with discussion?
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Without discussion this thing will get nowhere. Pokemon discusses any pokemon they wish to make uber(Ban) so what's wrong with discussion?
What's discussive about saying "lolwut? That card is balanced"?
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I agree with Chariot - there's other ways to recur heroes anyway now, so it's not as needed imo.
I agree with this, but how does that translate into banhammering?
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Without discussion this thing will get nowhere. Pokemon discusses any pokemon they wish to make uber(Ban) so what's wrong with discussion?
I said commenting, not discussing.
The way you worded it sounded like you were saying "What noob would want that banned?"
Yeah, I played, and I sucked.
I agree with Chariot - there's other ways to recur heroes anyway now, so it's not as needed imo.
I agree, but I want to considering how it will impact the game first, maybe play some practice games without it against defensive decks.
This also brings Unholy Writ into question.
I agree with Chariot - there's other ways to recur heroes anyway now, so it's not as needed imo.
I agree with this, but how does that translate into banhammering?
You could like... read the OP... or something.
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I agree with Chariot - there's other ways to recur heroes anyway now, so it's not as needed imo.
I agree with this, but how does that translate into banhammering?
Overcentralization. Every deck with <3 or >7 heroes, and many in between, use it. Because of it's breaking potential + the huge use, it's ban worthy. It also effectively sub bans several single hero strats that probably warrant attention anyway. Two birds with one stone.
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So it's certainly useful, but I don't see it as "broken." There are too many ways to get rid of it. (And lots of people are packing non-DoN anti-art thanks to Lampy)
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So it's certainly useful, but I don't see it as "broken." There are too many ways to get rid of it. (And lots of people are packing non-DoN anti-art thanks to Lampy)
Not in type ban. There's no Falling Away, which is the number 1 reason to carry lampy. Some might still carry it for burial, but that's not nearly as good as before and thus will see less play.
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Chariot is a strong card, but IMO, it is no where near strong enough to be banned. The only card I wouldn't mind banned is NJ. Everything else is fine. Yes Mayhem first turn, but you also have to put down as much as you can leaving them vulnerable. NJ is the only worthy nominee.
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I have yet to see CoF causing any problems. Yes, it's a good card that a lot of people use, but it doesn't break anything.
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Game Report:
I played an incredibly enjoyable, troll-tastic game against Russ. While it was the lulziest game ever, it was totally competitive. The extreme trolling didn't happen until the end when the game was pretty much decided. Oh yeah, and Saul got Taphnes'd then Converted then not used all game XD
Mayhem: Having Mayhem banned was, as always, the biggest boon to the fun factor. No stress wondering whether the game would be flipped by a single card at any moment.
NJ: Having NJ banned allowed for a much more strategic game, as always. Also allowed SoG to be used at-will with Shuffler to create on of the 9001 troll blocks this game.
FA: I loved having FA banned. It meant that the score was actually the score, not a number subject to change at any moment. It also stopped the game from being slow to the point of boring.
2-Line: Personally I hated it since Phars are less than zero percent as strong without it, but I think it's the right move.
This game revealed no other suspects.
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With NJ, Mayhem, and FA banned I assume balanced decks are the way to go now. Has that been your experience?
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I might be interested in playing a few games with the current banlist. Lately I've been getting less and less interested in the game, but it seems like a lot of fun could be restored with the big cheapo game-changers removed from the equation.
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My current T1 deck would be 100x better in this type. I don't use NJ or Falling Away, and Mayhem is used as it was meant to be used...
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My current T1 deck would be 100x better in this type. I don't use NJ or Falling Away, and Mayhem is used as it was meant to be used...
As a spare Harvest Time?
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Probably as a mulligan.
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Mulligan is correct. And cutting down my opponent's hand after they use their speed. And discarding my hand if RBD is up...
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And discarding my hand if RBD is up...
Who uses RBD in Austin anymore?
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Played another game. The bans were still nice, but the game still suffered from dominant flurries. While the player that lost was able to come back from a massive disadvantage caused by early doms to get 4, the back-to-back AotL, CM, Grapes, DoN, etc. put a massive cramp on the strategy.
I nominate both AotL and CM for banning, but only as a pair. Banning just one would make the games too slow while banning the other would make games too quick again. Having no instant CBN battle-winner that doesn't require initiative will force even more careful deck planning, and further diversify the playing field.
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Let's ban Grapes. It's too versatile. It works in every deck strategy. It has very little to instead or protect from it.
Played a game. Doms trolled around way too much. Little strategy was involved other than the fact I was a noob. Soul lock remained strong, albeit accidently and without a Burial to help it (if a burial had been in play, it could have been permanent soul lock, IIRC).
I would second the pair banning also (I guess). I mostly just hate doms. DoN is needed to easily counter arts, but so many others are weaksauce for strategy.
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I would agree with Angel of the Lord going, but I think christian martyr needs to stay to help balance out the discrepancy between good and evil. Grapes should stay too, it a good dominant to have because it balances out the draw factor. It punishes people for getting out into a lead, can kill nasty unchecked ECs, and can get rid of nasty unchecked heroes.
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I would agree with Angel of the Lord going, but I think christian martyr needs to stay to help balance out the discrepancy between good and evil.
The discrepancy between good and evil is exactly why they need to be banned as a pair (if at all). Good needs to be stronger than evil, in order to prevent overly lengthy and tie games, yet not so strong that defense doesn't have a chance to block.
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Played multiple games against Arch Angel and one against Alex.
2 Liner being banned allowed me to use SoG defensively every game, winning me at least one of my games.
FA being banned is so good, I have room to add cards that I couldn't normally add since I no longer need to have GoYS / Lampstand.
I nominate Grapes of Wrath.
It's a more powerful Angel of the Lord and punishes players that are in the lead far too much.
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I'm to the point to where I think type ban needs to become type no dominants.
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dominants in general are a flawed mechanic. unless every dominant had power levels in the area of doubt.
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Dominants are generally too powerful, but not a flawed Mechanic. Destruction of Nehustan is probably the best example of what a good dominant would be. It's awesome that you can play it any time, but it isn't game breaking.
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Dominants are generally too powerful, but not a flawed Mechanic. Destruction of Nehustan is probably the best example of what a good dominant would be. It's awesome that you can play it any time, but it isn't game breaking.
It's funny, cause DoN is evil.
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I'm to the point to where I think type ban needs to become type no dominants.
Nah. Dominants like CM and AOTL are nice. I think banning Grapes would go a long way, because it can essentially be either one whenever you need it. Son of God is fine so that the game moves faster (though, frankly, it's still a long game). DoN is fine because otherwise artifacts are so broken. Harvest Time is fine to counter act dumb draws.
Also, search is so good in Type ban. Play Nazereth.
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Dominants are generally too powerful, but not a flawed Mechanic. Destruction of Nehustan is probably the best example of what a good dominant would be. It's awesome that you can play it any time, but it isn't game breaking.
thats why i said you'd have to dominants in the area of doubt. any card that you can play at anytime with no penalty or drawback whatsoever is opening the door for abuse, so you'd have to dumb down the card substantially to balance it. im perfectly fine with dominants being support and simply support, but dominants either being auto-points or battle winners are a big no. its sad that the type 1 meta is still shaped by dominants after 10+ years.
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Just out of curiosity, do the people who post in this thread regularly and don't have membership actually play type ban?
Seems counter-productive to want your opinion heard but have no power to do anything with it.
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I don't have RTS.
DoN is waay more powerful than Doubt. Doubt is useless.
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I don't have RTS.
DoN is waay more powerful than Doubt. Doubt is useless.
ONLY when Lampstand is up! ;)
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don is perfectly fine as a support card though. its nowhere on the same level as cm, aotl, or even grapes.
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Just out of curiosity, do the people who post in this thread regularly and don't have membership actually play type ban?
Seems counter-productive to want your opinion heard but have no power to do anything with it.
Perhaps I'm just against the idea, and enjoy the discussion.
Doubt's not useless in Teams.
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how isnt doubt useless in teams?
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You used to be able to add it to battle in teams but they changed that because it would be a broken ctb card.
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right, but thats no longer allowed, so doubt is still relegated to an utterly useless card, right?
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no doubt about it.
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You used to be able to add it to battle in teams but they changed that because it would be a broken ctb card.
They changed that? Since when? I had it used against me *twice* in teams at Regionals.
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im sincerely starting to feel sorry for any regionals that doesn't start with 'north central' at the beginning.
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You mean the one where Thad was ruled wrong?
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no, that would be Midwest regionals.
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That rule was never "changed". It just plain never existed. We used it at Nats 2008 when Teams was just a house format. It has never and will never be tournament legal.
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That rule was never "changed". It just plain never existed. We used it at Nats 2008 when Teams was just a house format. It has never and will never be tournament legal.
We had elder confirmation that it was allowed at NE Regs. Can I get it ruled here otherwise?
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Post the ruling question. Anyone who disagrees with me, is frankly, daydreaming. If the topic still exists, I am about 90% sure that Professor Underwood specifically asked about Doubt (to clarify its worthlessness) to Rob when Teams was announced as official, and Rob replied that no house rules/erratas would be used in tournament play.
If I had been aware of this play, I would have ardently condemned any ruling supporting its legality.
Per the Teams Official Rules Thread:
Regarding # 2) I am not going to make Doubt do something it doesn't do to accommodate teams. Understand that as much as possible errata is reserved for correcting a card when it is doing something unintended that is breaking the game. Errata is not going to be used upgrade cards to make them more useful.
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Just out of curiosity, do the people who post in this thread regularly and don't have membership actually play type ban?
Seems counter-productive to want your opinion heard but have no power to do anything with it.
Perhaps I'm just against the idea, and enjoy the discussion.
Doubt's not useless in Teams.
Wasn't directed at you, but only person who responded.
(Ring Westy doesn't count).
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Playing Redemption would take away the time I have to play Starcraft.
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Playing Redemption would take away the time I have to play Starcraft.
I'm a little busy crafting something else...
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I am about 90% sure that Professor Underwood specifically asked about Doubt (to clarify its worthlessness) to Rob when Teams was announced as official, and Rob replied:
Regarding # 2) I am not going to make Doubt do something it doesn't do to accommodate teams. Understand that as much as possible errata is reserved for correcting a card when it is doing something unintended that is breaking the game. Errata is not going to be used upgrade cards to make them more useful.
This is correct. When I was first developing the TEAMS format, Doubt did have an "unofficial errata" that allowed it to be played in battle (however, there was also soon a rule that said that if you played it during your opponent's block, that your opponent was STILL allowed to add one of their own characters to block as well). This made Doubt a very interesting card in TEAMS, but also stopped it being used as a CTB card that it was not intended to be.
However, when TEAMS became an official category, Rob wanted it to line up with all the other categories, and therefore the "unofficial errata" on Doubt had to go. That was also when the definition of "your" changed to become specifically about 1 player on a team.
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Troll posting my bans on last day.
So I played various games. I love the bans as a general rule. Honestly, I don't see any problems with the bans as they currently are, though. I do not see that banning CM and AotL would help at all, but I won't directly oppose it. I guess I'm more neutral. I fully support all bans that are currently in place, though.
Also, I'm going away, so I can't participate in the next round or two. Sorry x.x
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Troll.
Also, I'm going away, so I can't participate in the next round or two. Sorry x.x
Seems legit, You can keep membership.
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When does the next round end? Do we have any new bans for it?
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When does the next round end? Do we have any new bans for it?
Tomorrow, Grapes.
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I meant the round that Arch is going to miss. I might be missing it too... I will be not at home from this wednesday until the monday after Nats. I wasn't sure when the round would end.
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Dear Mr. Smokey,
It has come to the attention of the Administration of the Cactus Game Design Message Boards that you are running a group or club that excludes members. From our understanding, you are refusing access of this club to various individuals if they refuse to be active and play Redemption. Under Cactus Game Design Message Board rules, this is inappropriate. You will be given 24 (twenty four) hours to cease and desist this behavior.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Rawrlolsauce!
Head of (name removed due to copyright issues).
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I meant the round that Arch is going to miss. I might be missing it too... I will be not at home from this wednesday until the monday after Nats. I wasn't sure when the round would end.
... two weeks from tomorrow.
You should be fine if you play a game anytime from tomorrow - Wednesday before you leave.
Dear Mr. Smokey,
It has come to the attention of the Administration of the Cactus Game Design Message Boards that you are running a group or club that excludes members. From our understanding, you are refusing access of this club to various individuals if they refuse to be active and play Redemption. Under Cactus Game Design Message Board rules, this is inappropriate. You will be given 24 (twenty four) hours to cease and desist this behavior.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Rawrlolsauce!
Head of (name removed due to copyright issues).
I don't exclude members, anyone can obtain membership.
Please shut down ROOT if this is a problem hurr head of JACK DANIEL'S SAWCE.
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Dear Mr. Smokey,
It has come to the attention of the Administration of the Cactus Game Design Message Boards that you are running a group or club that excludes members. From our understanding, you are refusing access of this club to various individuals if they refuse to be active and play Redemption. Under Cactus Game Design Message Board rules, this is inappropriate. You will be given 24 (twenty four) hours to cease and desist this behavior.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Rawrlolsauce!
Head of (name removed due to copyright issues).
Dear Mr. Sauce,
It has come to the attention of the Administration of the Cactus Game Design Message Boards that you are running a group or club that excludes members. From our understanding, you are refusing access of this club to various individuals if they refuse to be active in seeking out people in clubs and threatening thier removal therein. Furthermore, you are impersonating Cactus Game Employee's/Volunteer's. Under Cactus Game Design Message Board rules, this is inappropriate. You will be given 24 (twenty four) hours to cease and desist this behavior.
Thank you for your cooperation,
RDT
Redemption Elder - Redemption Card Play Moderator
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Updated, I'd like to say I was busy for the past few days but I wasn't... totally forgot... happens.
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Played a very one-sided game. The person who won got off to an amazing start and just kept plowing away from there. By the end of the game, he had 9001 cards in territory and the person who lost had 3 or 4. And then the winning RA used CTB Damsel with Serpent in hand just to twist the blade XD
However, the person who lost had 4 and almost won, despite a 7 turn card disadvantage and depleted hand the entire game. This was possible because TB is super-awesome.
I am still lobbying for banning CM and AotL. Eliminating them would help decentralize the game even further and force players to build decks well to account for particularly nasty characters, rather than relying on a Dom to solve the problem.
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Played a very one-sided game. The person who won got off to an amazing start and just kept plowing away from there. By the end of the game, he had 9001 cards in territory and the person who lost had 3 or 4. And then the winning RA used CTB Damsel with Serpent in hand just to twist the blade XD
However, the person who lost had 4 and almost won, despite a 7 turn card disadvantage and depleted hand the entire game. This was possible because TB is super-awesome.
I am still lobbying for banning CM and AotL. Eliminating them would help decentralize the game even further and force players to build decks well to account for particularly nasty characters, rather than relying on a Dom to solve the problem.
I am quoting this, for no other reason than I was the person Pol played with, and I want to get back on the TB list :( And I will second the motion for banning CM and AotL.
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CM and AotL are not auto-wins and shouldn't be banned, IMO.
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not auto-wins if you're playing with nt, right?
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Or banding, one of the more common strategies.
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or Abithar/Prince of Persia.
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Considering the release of the new set and new REG, as well as the absence of half of the Ban list membership, I'm going to suspend this weeks testing period.
Relax, build new decks, new set gets tested in a week.
Pol, if this offends you in any way let me know.
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I vote we ban Ahimilek.
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:D You have no idea how long I've waited for the new set to be out so I can mess around with him. Such a great, fun, powerful card.
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:D You have no idea how long I've waited for the new set to be out so I can mess around with him. Such a great, fun, powerful card.
I have the type 2 offense done already. He's too good.
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I don't see it. How is he that powerful?
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I'll let you figure out the specific cards yourself, but suffice it to say - You usually don't start battles with him.
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I don't see it. How is he that powerful?
He is broken. If you think Thad is bad, he's 10x worse.
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Okay, I figured that much out, but I thought there was something I was missing, since it didn't seem that powerful. I guess it is CBN though, so that probably will be a nice combo.
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Okay, I figured that much out, but I thought there was something I was missing, since it didn't seem that powerful. I guess it is CBN though, so that probably will be a nice combo.
It's been found by anyone who has played type 2 around when Patriarchs was released.
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Yeah ahimilech is op'd.
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I agree with the suspension, and would furthermore propose we clear the slate while the new meta settles in. I'd suggest stating new suspect proposals two weeks after the new cards are available on RTS.
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I agree with the suspension, and would furthermore propose we clear the slate while the new meta settles in. I'd suggest stating new suspect proposals two weeks after the new cards are available on RTS.
I was hesitant to do that at first, but realizing all the cards that target neutral cards and other dominant hate in this set it makes sense.
I'm pretty sure Gabe already has the RTS files complete and will upload them soon after nats, so no need for that.
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Okay, I figured that much out, but I thought there was something I was missing, since it didn't seem that powerful. I guess it is CBN though, so that probably will be a nice combo.
It's been found by anyone who has played type 2 around when Patriarchs was released.
Do you think Blinding Demon will actually see play this T2 season? Not being sarcastic, this is a legit question from a non-T2 player.
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No. Type 2 decks don't have space to soft counter a deck type that might not even see play.
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No. Type 2 decks don't have space to soft counter a deck type that might not even see play.
I agree that no one will use Blinding Demon. The liability with the Ahimelech/Ambush play is the reason Ambush hasn't been seen in T2 decks for years. If you attack with an Ambushed hero, and are blocked by a guy with Horses who plays an end the battle ability, then the rule is your guy is flipped up as part of battle resolution, but his ability can't take place.
Obviously there are ways around Horses/play abilities but that gets even more complicated.
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Banlist is back up, 2011 Set is available for testing.
For people who wish to join:
NOW IS THE TIME TO DO SO
I will be accepting members without the 1 week trial period until the end of this testing period.
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Genesis is broken in ban once we ban Mayhem and NJ.... the issue is what to ban.
I nom Mayhem, NJ, Ahimelek, and 7years of plenty.
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Lets not ban any new cards just yet until we've played a few games.
Oh also I'm finally joining in.
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I played 4 games kid ;)
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Something will probably have to be done about Genesis. TB was becoming uber-centralized to Genesis even before the new set sent it through the roof.
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Something will probably have to be done about Genesis. TB was becoming uber-centralized to Genesis even before the new set sent it through the roof.
Yeah. We should probably ban like... Zeb for sure. Probably another hero... maybe Benjamin or Joseph. Genesis was really good before and everything they got is really playable.
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I nominate Mayhem, New Jerusalem, and Lost Souls.
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I nominate that you erase all errata's that were given for the purpose of toning down a card and ban that card. They've been using errata as a way to get around banning, so you might as well ban them instead of keeping an errata. Sorry, ANB.
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I nominate Mayhem, New Jerusalem, and Lost Souls.
I second this, and add Falling Away.
I'd also like to put Joseph on the suspect list. It's too early for me to want him straight banned, but he needs to be watched.
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I nominate that you erase all errata's that were given for the purpose of toning down a card and ban that card. They've been using errata as a way to get around banning, so you might as well ban them instead of keeping an errata. Sorry, ANB.
I don't see the purpose of this, most of those were made for type 2, and ban is currently t1 only.
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Q. What is the point of Type Ban?
A. To ban cards that are broken instead of errata-ing them or letting them roam free, as Cactus is currently doing.
Q. Why are there cards that are errata'd?
A. Because Cactus has already done so and we're still using their way of stopping broken cards because it's already been done...?
Q. Why can't cards work the way they say they work?
A. Because, well, we don't want to fix that...?
ANB had a number of killer T1 combos leading to it's erratas.
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Type Ban is designed to be very similar to T1, but maximizing fun by banning certain centralizing or NPE cards. Banning cards that have a T2 errata (or even a general errata like ANB) is outside the scope of what this type is about. Unless said errata'd card is lessening fun on its own (like Grapes last season).
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Alex, assuming your other nominations are what you are planning to nominate please include a reason for all of the cards that weren't banned last season.
My nominations:
New Jerusalem, Mayhem, Lost Souls, Falling Away.
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I agree with your nominations for now. Not sure what else to do until I see how those bans play out.
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I add Joseph to my list of ban nominees. TB was already nearly 100% centralized to Genesis before it got an unreal amount of help in this set. Now even normal T1 is almost entirely genesis from my experience. Joseph needs t2h banz if there's to be any hope of diversity.
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I add Joseph to my list of ban nominees. TB was already nearly 100% centralized to Genesis before it got an unreal amount of help in this set. Now even normal T1 is almost entirely genesis from my experience. Joseph needs t2h banz if there's to be any hope of diversity.
I would nom 7years before Joseph probably.
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Alex out of curiosity how much does it cost to rent your sig?
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Depends what you want to put there.
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Don't ban Joe, ban Creation of the World. Genesis ends up significantly balanced.
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Not really. Creation of the World is a gimmick. Joe is a hero with 2 CBN enhancements that can't be marytred.
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I don't think he's broken enough to justify a ban though. CotW takes Genesis and makes it crazy if you can pull that off early enough. I just don't feel it. Ben should be banned before Joe.
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Not really. Creation of the World is a gimmick. Joe is a hero with 2 CBN enhancements that can't be marytred.
2? I assume you're talking about the 2 that come with him? There is one more though, and it's significant.
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3 CBN battle winners:
Forgiveness of Joseph, Joesph before Pharoah, and Reuben's Torn Clothes.
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3 CBN battle winners:
Forgiveness of Joseph, Joesph before Pharoah, and Reuben's Torn Clothes.
Lamby, YUNO POST BANS.
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Depends what you want to put there.
Something somewhat crude but tasteful. It may get you banned and it's not something you'd be willing to say in front of your boss.
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Played my first couple TB games. I won't go into great detail since both decks were pretty hastily made and not the best representations of TB, but I reiterate my nomination for the banning of Joseph. Almost guaranteed initiative, 3 CBN battle-winners, can't be Martyred, can be protected from Capture, easy playing of Creation of the World, 2 Heroes that retrieve him from Discard (one of whom can also retrieve him from deck), and in a brigade so fast it makes Disciples cry.
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You saw nothing!
But I pretty much agree. Sad part is that I only used Joe for 2 of the 9 rescues that I made. Gen just has far, far to many options.
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Played my first couple TB games. I won't go into great detail since both decks were pretty hastily made and not the best representations of TB, but I reiterate my nomination for the banning of Joseph. Almost guaranteed initiative, 3 CBN battle-winners, can't be Martyred, can be protected from Capture, easy playing of Creation of the World, 2 Heroes that retrieve him from Discard (one of whom can also retrieve him from deck), and in a brigade so fast it makes Disciples cry.
How exactly can he be protected from capture other than Tassels?
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Obadiah's Caves.
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Depends what you want to put there.
Something somewhat crude but tasteful. It may get you banned and it's not something you'd be willing to say in front of your boss.
Rawrlolsauce! receives the first plus one I have ever given for the quote at the bottom. You should rent Olijar's space just to include a bit more of that or to sing of Olaf glad and big.
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Played a few TB games today, and I would like to add Samuel to my list of proposed bans, along with Joseph. Samuel is the Joseph of his speed type. He himself is not quite as daunting as Joseph, but he's the lynchpin of the fastest offense ever to exist. In my 3 games today I decked when my opponent was at 33, 26, and 36 cards in deck. The only time I gave up more than 1 or 2 souls was when there was a bizarre soul drought in spite of Amazing+Jehoash, Harvest Time, Hopper, and TAS.
tl;dr: Ban Joseph and Samuel.
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I would like to highlight that banning cards effectively regresses the game back to a simpler state of being. Reason: when the most powerful cards are banned then there will be new powerful cards (and human ingenuity will find new powerful combos). Ultimately, are you guys wanting the game to be reduced back to simple math? My 4/4 Mark is battling your 6/6 Judas. It is for this reason that I will continue to stand against banning both of the official and unofficial kind.
Played a few TB games today, and I would like to add Samuel to my list of proposed bans, along with Joseph. Samuel is the Joseph of his speed type. He himself is not quite as daunting as Joseph, but he's the lynchpin of the fastest offense ever to exist. In my 3 games today I decked when my opponent was at 33, 26, and 36 cards in deck. The only time I gave up more than 1 or 2 souls was when there was a bizarre soul drought in spite of Amazing+Jehoash, Harvest Time, Hopper, and TAS.
tl;dr: Ban Joseph and Samuel.
And then Angel Under the Oak is next, and then Abigail, and then Matthew, and then Susanna... I thought Type Ban was supposed to ban only those cards that are literally broken. If Joseph and Samuel are literally broken (and therefore the two best heroes in the game), what's to stop the 3rd best hero in the game from getting banned next? Joseph's protection is useless against CM, since CM was (at one point) banned from TB. And with no AotL or NJ, having a hero who can get a few CBN enhancements in is not the end of the world. Uriah can get in 3 ITB/negate + win CBN (Bravery of David, David's Triumph, plus an ASP recur) and has almost as good of inish as Joseph.
I know that I dropped out of TB, so maybe my opinion doesn't mean anything, but nearly every single theme has drawing and a CBN battlewinner now. If cards like Joseph and Samuel start getting banned, eventually people will be forced to make defense-heavy TB decks. And then people will find defensive cards that should be banned, and the trend will continue...
I plan on playing TB once my CFP exam is done (November 19th, counting down the days), and when I start playing, I don't want to find half of the new cards already banned. I guess that's why I included the soulseeker quote above.
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That's the reason we don't ban cards today. I agree completely, just because a card is fast/useful doesn't mean it should be put on the chopping block.
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And slowly a few more realize the truth. There is no end to banning...it just makes more cards powerful. I will continue to uphold against all fronts of any suggestions of banning. :P
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Cactus needs to stop printing cards, soon every combination of letters under 500 characters will be printed in every brigade! Slowly a few more will realize the truth.
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(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogcdn.com%2Fwww.urlesque.com%2Fmedia%2F2010%2F05%2Fhatereagle.jpg&hash=6ce22640769bec7f4a93f62bceea9aff7474732d)
At Pol, not sure how you went from "No bans, balanced metagame" to "Ban ALL the cards" but both Samuel and Broseph have counters if you don't want to use them then QQ moar.
Aside from Broseph's CBN enhancements... but every brigade has that now.
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I can think of some counters to Broseph. Most of them involve Unholy Writ.
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Joseph and Samuel are broken. Anyone care to dispute that? I've heard reference to "some counters," so tell me, what are they?
Part of the point of TB is to decentralize. Right now, I see no reason to use anything but Genesis or Samuel. Banning Joseph and Samuel would increase the viability of other deck types.
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Joseph and Samuel are broken. Anyone care to dispute that? I've heard reference to "some counters," so tell me, what are they?
Part of the point of TB is to decentralize. Right now, I see no reason to use anything but Genesis or Samuel. Banning Joseph and Samuel would increase the viability of other deck types.
Samuel:
Nazereth
Hezekiah's Signet Ring
Rain becomes dust
Joseph:
Anything that harms heroes in territory
Demon Banding chains
To stop Rachael + Stone Pillar:
Nazereth
Hezekiah's Signet Ring
Other deck types? The meta will still be speed after Joe and Samuel are gone, it just won't be Genesis and Judges speed.
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Played Pol.
I support banning Joseph to try to uncentralize the offensive meta. I can't comment yet on Sam because I have never seen him played.
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In fact, RBD was up against Samuel all game and Samuel still won handily. Not only is it fast, it's extremely powerful.
As for Jo, you're basically admitting there's no counter. PWD kills him in territory but he has 3 Heroes to recur him and Abraham's Descendant. Demon banding chains are bad, so that's merely a silver bullet (that takes up a huge chunk of your deck, no less).
The problem isn't speed. The problem is decking on turn 5-6 without sacrificing anything in the way of power. In fact, a few games the deck that wasn't Samuel/Genesis outsped, but still lost because of how powerful they are.
And remember, we're not banning Genesis or everything that's in a Samuel offense. Just banning those two characters will bring the power level down so that there's no more "best offense." The spiraling bans argument is kind of ridiculous and it's never happened so far.
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How did I lose membership exactly?
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How did I lose membership exactly?
You didn't whine enough.
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If you don't like TB, you don't have to post. Telling TB members that we're whiny and should just tech if we don't like certain strategies is not helpful.
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This category really has become "I got beat badly and am bitter about it so let's ban the cards that made me lose" Banning CotW I could see, I played a Genesis deck several times over the weekend and he got creation everytime and pulled 8-10 heroes and and banded them all in. I could see it....except despite that move I still won over half of our games. Broseph was annoying to deal with but I can't win every game 5-0. Yeah I martyred Broseph in territory twice. Killed him. This once again comes down to, not that their aren't any counters there just aren't any you use or that you think are useful. I lost a little bit of an advantage by using martyr then but once again, I can't win every game 5-0
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Genesis is a centralizing force in TB. Because search is more powerful than draw in TB, Genesis rose to the forefront of TB before the new set. With this set, Genesis was gifted with the best hero in the game. It only makes sense to ban Broseph in order to try to decentralize the meta more. Samuel is a little more ambiguous in my opinion.
TB is about decentralizing the meta of the game from two or three decks, not about only banning OP cards.
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So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.
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I know I'm not a part of this but, could someone please explain to me how Samuel is such a fast offense? Drawing a total of 6 (if you count the searches for the heroes as draws) doesn't seem too fast... which makes me think that the speed already must have existed. Am I missing some awesome aspect of Samuel?
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So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.
Actually, nothing from Disciples was banned last session. They were less powerful though because of the lack of New Jerusalem and Falling Away dissuading players from playing pure speed decks.
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So there's two "seasons" of this. Last season, you primarily banned cards that found their way into every deck (NJ, 2/3-liner, etc). Thanks to the absence of a need for speed, search became the best. (Both have counters in RBD and Naz, but that's outside of the scope of what I'm talking about). Now you've moved into banning the stars of themes, not just staples. What's next?
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So there's two "seasons" of this. Last season, you primarily banned cards that found their way into every deck (NJ, 2/3-liner, etc). Thanks to the absence of a need for speed, search became the best. (Both have counters in RBD and Naz, but that's outside of the scope of what I'm talking about). Now you've moved into banning the stars of themes, not just staples. What's next?
My anticipation is that after Joseph and Samuel get banned, a defensive card will be banned. I would predict probably Uzzah or Goliath, but you never know. Like I said, TB is about decentralization, not about only banning certain kinds of cards.
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So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.
Actually, nothing from Disciples was banned last session. They were less powerful though because of the lack of New Jerusalem and Falling Away dissuading players from playing pure speed decks.
Combined with this.....
Genesis is a centralizing force in TB. Because search is more powerful than draw in TB, Genesis rose to the forefront of TB before the new set.
still proves my point. Search is only more powerful because TB made it more powerful. There will always be top decks because humans are creative, and they will find a way to overcome obstacles to win.
I will stop posting in your thread because you guys don't believe me and will not be happy until something is banned. However, I am confident that I am right and hopefully Rob will believe what I have said (the whole point of me posting in a ban thread: not to win you guy's opinions, but the observers).
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I understand that TB made search more powerful. I am completely ok with that. But the issue is that at this exact moment, there is no reason to play anything but Genesis. That's bad for the game. It's arguably that way WITH NJ and FA. Without them, it's even more prevalent.
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So basically type ban nerfed disciples and now all you have left is genesis and now you want to nerf them too? SS is right on this one, if you keep banning cards it's just gonna make the problem worse. Right now there is at least 5 viable themes in Redemption on offense I see no reason to ban anything right now.
Thats what happens when you ban cards.... You eventually Ban the Game.
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tell that to mtg and yugioh. banning cards is a necessary aspect of a healthy meta and a successful ccg.
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Exactly. Everyone is worried about something that won't happen, and for no good reason. Every other card game bans cards, and it hasn't spiraled out of control there either.
Also, Samuel draws 8+whatever TToD draws+another 3-5+ if you have Peace Treaty or Unified Kingdom in hand.
As to CM'ing Joseph in territory, Judah and Rachel laugh at your puny efforts.
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As to CM'ing Joseph in territory, Judah and Rachel laugh at your puny efforts.
And Asher in a pinch.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but it's my belief that Type Ban should only ban staple cards. New Jerusalem, Mayhem 2 and 3 Liners, etc. I can even see the banning of Uzzah. However, I think when you get into banning cards that only apply to a specific strategy, that can go down a dangerous road. Making a blanket statement that no CCG has ever spiraled out of control in the banning of cards is just untrue. I'm all for the banning of cards- I really am. However, I think it should be done with wisdom, and not, "this card is really good and should be banned". Both Joseph and Samuel can be countered if you put the effort into it. Neither Hero is protected from capture without outside help, and I've yet to encounter anyone who uses Obidiah's Caves in a Genesis deck. In fact, both Caves and Tassels are taken care of easily enough in the current meta. I just really don't see the problem, because while Joseph is a very, very good Hero, virtually any strategy that can be used to take him out can be applied to other offenses. There's no need to specialize a very specific way to take him out, because there are at least a few ways to do that while still remaining completely viable against other strategies.
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Well I've played yugioh, and I can say them banning cards is by far my LEAST favorite aspect of the game. They make whatever cards they want that are totally OP to make money, and then ban them to make everyone start over in the next format. That's definitely not something Redemption should follow.
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Well I've played yugioh, and I can say them banning cards is by far my LEAST favorite aspect of the game. They make whatever cards they want that are totally OP to make money, and then ban them to make everyone start over in the next format. That's definitely not something Redemption should follow.
Keeping in mind that Cactus certainly won't be making overpowered cards just to make money, with the intention of banning them later, I disagree that that line isn't something Redemption do. I much, much prefer the banning of cards than having to balance out the game every single set. Redemption hasn't had an even vaguely balanced meta since Priests.
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I believe the ONLY card that has truly broken the game is TGT. Everything else is okay. People complain about Samuel and Joseph. Well you can with with one over the other, right? Red is just as good as well, I believe, and TGT is still as viable as an option.
That's every brigade, right there. Not to mention defense.
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You guys should ask my friend John how he feels about Jace the Mindsculptor being banned the day after he bought 2 on ebay for a combined $210. Putting a blanket statement down saying that no CCG has ever failed because of banning cards is naive. Yeah MTG and YuGiOh are still around but there have been probably hundreds of thousands of CCGs and we have what 3 main ones? MTG and YuGiOh can survive banning because they have millions of players and are huge games, redemption isn't. Redemption is a niche game and when you start banning cards just because everyone uses them you start turning people off the game.
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Again, if you don't like it, don't play TB. It's not an official type, Cactus hasn't banned any cards, and furthermore, do either of you even play TB? Why do you care if a fun alternate game type you don't play bans more cards than you think it should?
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It's not an official type, Cactus hasn't banned any cards, and furthermore, do either of you even play TB? Why do you care if a fun alternate game type you don't play bans more cards than you think it should?
Because I like the idea of Type Ban, and I think that it's the best compromise since Rob refuses to ban any cards for the normal game. I currently have no reason to play it, since the only reason I play RTS is to keep my skills and deck relatively sharp, which is hard when staple cards are missing from the games. However, should Type Ban ever become an official game type (which I can definitely see happening), it's likely that the direction it takes (banning staple cards as opposed to banning pieces of specific strategies) will be the same direction that those who are involved right now decide to take it. So obviously, I have a vested interest in how this particular debate pans out, as it can very well affect the way the game is played in a year or so. It's a less a matter of specific cards and more an issue of principal. If you stick to banning staple cards that ruin some of the variety, that's easily controlled and there's not a problem there. When you get into banning the heavy hitters of particular strategies, that does turn into a giant gray area.
Again, if you don't like it, don't play TB.
The exact same statement can apply to you. I understand your frustration with Joe and Sam, but seriously, they both are countered easily enough. I actually just made a well-thought out post on the subject, which you reduced to, "if you don't like it don't play". Joseph CAN be countered. Sam CAN be countered- and frankly, they can both be countered without going too terribly far out of your way.
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Again, if you don't like it, don't play TB. It's not an official type, Cactus hasn't banned any cards, and furthermore, do either of you even play TB? Why do you care if a fun alternate game type you don't play bans more cards than you think it should?
Well I wasn't saying anyone is doing anything wrong, I guess I was just inputting my :2cents: on the topic in general.
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Well I've played yugioh, and I can say them banning cards is by far my LEAST favorite aspect of the game. They make whatever cards they want that are totally OP to make money, and then ban them to make everyone start over in the next format. That's definitely not something Redemption should follow.
this makes no sense because konami has no control whatsoever over secondary market values of yugioh cards. if you want to blame anyone for overinflated prices of singles, blame the people that make them that way.
You guys should ask my friend John how he feels about Jace the Mindsculptor being banned the day after he bought 2 on ebay for a combined $210. Putting a blanket statement down saying that no CCG has ever failed because of banning cards is naive.
...what? you're trying to put the blame on mtg when clearly they had no hand in making your friend buy the singles in the first place?
also, last i checked, mtg has not failed from banning jace. he was OP, broken, insane..and banning him was the absolute best thing to do to keep a healthy meta and not one where games go to the person with the bigger wallet. again, the company making the cards have nothing to do with secondary market values, only people like me and you.
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One quick addition: Where did the people selling singles get the cards from? Buying packs. Depending on the rarity, LOTS of packs. OP cards fuel sales.
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who makes the cards op? once again: players.
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Having played relatively little compared to almost every one involved in this debate, I have to say. I played TB a few times and honestly prefer it significantly to standard T1.
TB makes the game easier to play defense and many people prefer a defensive based game. If I could be so bold as to say TB is more like the smaller and cheaper version of T2.
I’ve looked at T2 and think I would like it better than T1 but feel to inexperienced to even attempt building a T2 deck, let alone playing somebody in it.
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i feel exactly the same way, and thats the exact reason i havent started t2 yet. i also dont like the strict deck requirements, like 1/2 and 1/2 good to evil and a 100 card deck minimum, thats just utterly ridiculous.
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I just looked back and there was nothing about how to counter Samuel or Joseph. Samuel himself is counterable, Joseph is not, but again, that's not the issue. They are the centerpieces of deck types so fast and so powerful that there's no reason not to play them. While Samuel can be countered, it's hard to get those counters up when a Samuel deck will usually have decked by the time the opponent still has 36 cards in deck. Joseph simply has no real counters, but even if he did, Genesis is second in speed only to Samuel.
And like I said before, for all the talk of countering, I have first-hand experience where the counters were drawn, opening hand, and Genesis/Samuel still won handily. Not only are they ridiculously fast, they're ridiculously powerful.
As much as you use the slippery slope argument (which is a straight-up logical fallacy), you have decades of MTG and YuGiOh proving you wrong. When they ban the ridiculously broken cards, it doesn't start moving down the line to the next most powerful, because it's not about banning whatever's most powerful. It's about banning what is broken. Joseph is broken for sure. Samuel I could be persuaded, but so far nobody has made a convincing argument against my assertion that he is broken.
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idk, is drawing 9 and having ttod waiting in the wings broken?
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Out of curiosity, how does Sam draw 9? I thought it was only two...
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technically its 3 as the search itself is a + 1, resulting in a +3 from deck. oak angel is pretty self explanatory, so thats another +2 there. the rest you have to get creative about. ;)
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The most potent Samuel band is Oak to Samuel (a 5 card advantage) to Armorbearer to Ishmiah (now 8 cards) to Asahel to Saul with TToD out (now 9+ cards and play-first). If you think that sounds like a lot of cards for a combo, I have played over 15 games with Samuel and had it out by turn 4 about 10 of them. Samuel first turn is almost guaranteed (10% of the cards in the deck deck after LS's create a 1st turn Sam), and the drawing starts piling up so quickly (in addition to the fact that Sam himself searches for Saul) that you'd have to have improbably bad luck to not have this combo out very quickly.
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As much as you use the slippery slope argument (which is a straight-up logical fallacy), you have decades of MTG and YuGiOh proving you wrong.
Decades? Yugioh has been out for 12 years, Magic has been out for 18. Unless we're adding those two together, you're getting ahead of yourself. Furthermore, comparing Yugioh and Magic to Redemption is unrealistic all it's own. You're talking about the best selling and oldest (respectively) CCGs that are still published regularly. You can't even begin to compare that to a niche Christian card game that is lucky to see 150 people at a national tournament. The entire economy is set up completely different between those two games and Redemption. Furthermore, you're quick to mention those two (again, the juggernauts of the CCG world), and neglect to mention the couple hundred other CCGs that have come and gone in the last two decades. I'm not saying any of them failed directly or indirectly due to banning cards, because I have no idea; I'm saying until you can do a thorough look at each CCG that was roughly the size Redemption is now, and look at the effects that doing so had on the impact of the gameplay itself, along with the sales of that game, saying "banning cards won't do anything" and citing Yugioh and Magic is not going to convince anyone of anything.
Keep in mind that I'm all for the banning of cards, but you do absolutely risk jumping on that slippery slope. Let's assume that you neuter both Sam and Joe: you now have the potential for the meta in Type Ban to be impacted sharply. Should that happen, it's entirely possible that another offense (or defense) will rise as the best in the Type Ban meta. You're then forced to have this same debate about eliminating a card to balance that particular strategy. Rinse, and repeat. You can deny that that will happen all you'd like, but that remains a serious possibility, no matter how much you'd like to dismiss it as a "logical fallacy". The way Redemption is set up, the meta will always centralize on one or two strategies. That's the way it's been for years now, ranging from the FBTN days to the Z Temple and TGT days to Disciples and TGT last year. There's really no reason to assume that doing the opposite (cutting cards instead of adding them) won't have the same effect.
I'm not arguing that Joseph isn't broken. I've been using Genesis for almost a month now, I'm well aware how strong an offense this is. I'm much, much less convinced that Sam is an issue, since Naz or even just a CM shuts him down entirely. I don't believe that either card is so incredibly overpowered that it's worth the risk that these predictions that this will just lead to more bannings will turn out to be correct. Again, I completely support Type Ban, and I'd love to see it as an official category in the coming years. That's exactly why I'm going to have my say and present my argument to see it shaped the way I'd like to see it, in the exact same way you're presenting your argument to see it shaped the way you would like to see it.
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I think you'd stop a lot of the naysayers if you created an eventual goal for yourselves. (i.e. a definition of a "balanced meta")
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Genesis will still be the best offense without Joseph. It just won't be broken. A Purple offense (which is, at the core, what a Samuel offense is) will still be powerful without Samuel.
Please, please, please bear in mind nobody is talking about banning strategies. Joseph is broken, not Genesis as a whole. Samuel is a bit difficult because he himself isn't broken, but he allows a broken deck to run. I again firmly reject any idea of a slippery slope. In fact, there are currently fewer cards banned now then there were last round. The idea isn't to ban what's most powerful, but what's broken. Decentralization is an ideal, but not necessarily a goal. We don't want to bring all decks down to the same level of power by banning all the best cards, we simply want to make sure there are no cards so enormously overpowered that no other decks have a chance, and reduce staples. Joseph and Samuel are the only offenders.
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there is no question that some cards created in various ccg's have overcentralized the meta to the point where you either play with 1 type of deck or you lose. for example, in 2009 the yugioh meta was completely overrun by TeleDAD decks. it was not uncommon at all for EVERY SINGLE top spot at every single top tournament in every single circuit domestic and international to be nothing but TeleDAD decks (which has thousands of players and far more high-level tournaments in a single year than redemption does in 5 years). an emergency ban was implemented, and the deck was no more. as pol has already stated, banning cards is not about banning what seems to be the most powerful, it is about banning what is completely BROKEN. banning a card will more than likely not cause a cascade where another powerful card will simply take its spot. as long as you keep giving cards checks and striving to keep the game balanced, you will have a healthy meta. in todays yugioh, there are now between 15 and 20 different top tier decks you can top with at high tournaments, which proves unto itself that the meta is diverse and healthy because of bans. there is just no denying that sometimes some cards slip through the cracks and end up becoming far too powerful with far too few answers, and the best course of action to counter them is to simply ban them.
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Yeah, Sam is pretty stupid broken. You can technically deck out on turn 2 with a nice opener. With a perfect open you can be at 8 cards in deck before turn 2.
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there is no question that some cards created in various ccg's have overcentralized the meta to the point where you either play with 1 type of deck or you lose. for example, in 2009 the yugioh meta was completely overrun by TeleDAD decks. it was not uncommon at all for EVERY SINGLE top spot at every single top tournament in every single circuit domestic and international to be nothing but TeleDAD decks (which has thousands of players and far more high-level tournaments in a single year than redemption does in 5 years). an emergency ban was implemented, and the deck was no more. as pol has already stated, banning cards is not about banning what seems to be the most powerful, it is about banning what is completely BROKEN. banning a card will more than likely not cause a cascade where another powerful card will simply take its spot. as long as you keep giving cards checks and striving to keep the game balanced, you will have a healthy meta. in todays yugioh, there are now between 15 and 20 different top tier decks you can top with at high tournaments, which proves unto itself that the meta is diverse and healthy because of bans. there is just no denying that sometimes some cards slip through the cracks and end up becoming far too powerful with far too few answers, and the best course of action to counter them is to simply ban them.
ty masterk you have quoted my point much more elliquently then i now hopefully people will actually care to respond
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there is no question that some cards created in various ccg's have overcentralized the meta to the point where you either play with 1 type of deck or you lose. for example, in 2009 the yugioh meta was completely overrun by TeleDAD decks. it was not uncommon at all for EVERY SINGLE top spot at every single top tournament in every single circuit domestic and international to be nothing but TeleDAD decks (which has thousands of players and far more high-level tournaments in a single year than redemption does in 5 years). an emergency ban was implemented, and the deck was no more. as pol has already stated, banning cards is not about banning what seems to be the most powerful, it is about banning what is completely BROKEN. banning a card will more than likely not cause a cascade where another powerful card will simply take its spot. as long as you keep giving cards checks and striving to keep the game balanced, you will have a healthy meta. in todays yugioh, there are now between 15 and 20 different top tier decks you can top with at high tournaments, which proves unto itself that the meta is diverse and healthy because of bans. there is just no denying that sometimes some cards slip through the cracks and end up becoming far too powerful with far too few answers, and the best course of action to counter them is to simply ban them.
I know I'm not a part of this, but if I could just put in my input. The point here is that banning doesn't stop anything. So teledad stopped. Now look at the amount of decks with Tourguide of the Underworld. Like, all of them? I think this is proving the point that banning cards just allows a different deck to rain supreme. And what deck doesn't have solemn warning or pot of duality.
I understand your point and you're definitely right to a degree. But I really don't think that banning cards has helped make yugioh balanced; it is popular because everyone plays it so more people do because it started on a popular tv show, and as long as everyone plays it they can afford to make it profitable because of how expensive cards are and the awesome prizes of winning top-level tournaments. It's a vicious cycle that has to actually start somewhere. It started with a tv show, and the more people play, the more money konami makes to make the game better and have more cool looking cards, then the more people play. I don't think banning has made it popular, it's popular because it is popular, as circular as that sounds.
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tour guide is powerful, but its nowhere on the level of abuse teledad wrecked on the meta in 2009. at best tour guide gets you a 2500 atk beater, and if you have noticed, has actually dropped down in price by about $50 (from a $180 card that you have the chance of pulling in a regular booster pack) because of the recent 3 day old ruling concerning xyz materials not being on the field (common play was tour guide -> sangan -> no. 17 leviathan, netting you + 1 from sangan once he left the field). yes, tour guide is powerful and yes, it can be splashed in every single possibly feasible deck, but thats the point...it can be used in every single deck, therefore the meta still remains diverse. furthermore tour guide in no way compromises or shapes the identity of the deck, you will not win games with tour guide alone...its just one of those cards that has become nigh-staple because while powerful, it still only creates a regular 2500 atk beater that can still be easily dealt with by many many many other commonly used cards in the meta. same with pot of duality and solemn warning. pot of duality is one of the most balanced drawing cards i have seen in almost any ccg to date...a very, very, VERY well-thought out and designed card. powerful, but with a hefty drawback that prevents it from becoming ban fodder. solemn warning same way, another powerful card, but thats why its on the ban list :P (limited to 2).
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all of this yu gi oh talk makes me want to pick the game up again....
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sorry, i was just trying to demonstrate to him what constitutes a bannable card and what kinds of cards can remain powerful but with checks. pot of duality is powerful but comes with a huge drawback (no special summoning the turn it is used, and its not even a + 1 draw card), solemn comes with a huge substantial lp payment and is checked by the ban list (limited to 2), and tour guide only gets out a regular huge attack mon that has many checks that are commonly found in the meta (mirror force, tt, dark hole, d-prisons, compulsory, effect veiler, etc etc).
on the other hand, joseph and samuel are walking the line into broken...insane abilities on both that cannot be checked by commonly found cards in the meta. both are virtually immune to getting discarded due to more than one easy way to recur in both of their themes, and 1 cant even be discarded straight-up without a negate. both can easily be protected from capture either by simply laying down a fortress or having a certain artifact active. that severely limits the meta's options of keeping these two powerhouses in check with counters that are reasonable for all decks.
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The one otherwise-foolproof counter to Joseph doesn't even work with caves up. It turns JiP from a nailed coffin to a 1 turn setback.
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tour guide is powerful, but its nowhere on the level of abuse teledad wrecked on the meta in 2009. at best tour guide gets you a 2500 atk beater, and if you have noticed, has actually dropped down in price by about $50 (from a $180 card that you have the chance of pulling in a regular booster pack) because of the recent 3 day old ruling concerning xyz materials not being on the field (common play was tour guide -> sangan -> no. 17 leviathan, netting you + 1 from sangan once he left the field). yes, tour guide is powerful and yes, it can be splashed in every single possibly feasible deck, but thats the point...it can be used in every single deck, therefore the meta still remains diverse. furthermore tour guide in no way compromises or shapes the identity of the deck, you will not win games with tour guide alone...its just one of those cards that has become nigh-staple because while powerful, it still only creates a regular 2500 atk beater that can still be easily dealt with by many many many other commonly used cards in the meta. same with pot of duality and solemn warning. pot of duality is one of the most balanced drawing cards i have seen in almost any ccg to date...a very, very, VERY well-thought out and designed card. powerful, but with a hefty drawback that prevents it from becoming ban fodder. solemn warning same way, another powerful card, but thats why its on the ban list :P (limited to 2).
I didn't know about the new ruling, last I heard tourguide still works. I guess my point was that that's exactly what Samuel and Joseph and any of those other cards do. You can't win with Samuel, but he gets a deck going so effectively that he is considered by some to be "broken." Tourguide doesn't win you the game, but getting two cards out of your deck, a 2500 atk beater and a searched monster is pretty powerful, and gets your deck rolling faster that it should (and it happens first turn most of the time in a good deck). So I think the same things are happening, but neither should be banned. It's just a powerful card.
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maybe thats why pol was a bit hesitant towards banning sam. but you still have to look at the entire setup...because sam is the lynchpin in the combo, it will ultimately net you +9 cards plus whatever you get off of ttod...thats a pretty massive swing in raw card advantage over an opponent, especially in a meta where dominants can be key to winning games (and with brigades part of the combo that has plenty of nasty interrupt + battle winners in it). its definately a card tb needs to keep its eye on.
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Yeah... Just about every amazing battle winner can be in the deck - Reach+AoCP, Sam's Edict, Bravery of David, Zeal for the Lord, etc.
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Ok fair enough, I understand that. I guess since you can do so many things to him, I didn't realize he'd be such a good character.
And RDT, you forgot Two Bears. 8)
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it really is the return of the old-skool speed deck...
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What's your explanation for letting this guy slip through the cracks?
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Winning 5 minute games is more exciting then winning 25 minute games.
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Heck, we could even move to best of three!
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and SIDEBOARD. :o
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We really should do best out of three with top cut. I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?
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We really should do best out of three with top cut. I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?
I'd love to try this, but my tournaments just aren't big enough.
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We really should do best out of three with top cut. I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?
How would this solve ftm? If someone got 2 ftms and you get one you'd still be losing.
Banning mayhem is easier than changing rules.
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We really should do best out of three with top cut. I mean do we want to see who has the best deck/game play or who can pull a first turn Mayhem etc..., the most?
How would this solve ftm? If someone got 2 ftms and you get one you'd still be losing.
Banning mayhem is easier than changing rules.
No offense to Matt, but I can't imagine that 6 FTMs didn't swing the game heavily in his favor. With best two out of three, it's unlikely that you'd get 2 FTMs each match.
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matt got 6 ftm's at nats?
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matt got 6 ftm's at nats?
Yeah.
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what are the odds again of getting mayhem in your opening hand?
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The math starts here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/complete-decks/nats-t1-2p-1st-place/msg438120/#msg438120)
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Buying 20 of something and eating 16 is not normal. But on math it is. Math; not even once.
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Buying 20 of something and eating 16 is not normal. But on math it is. Math; not even once.
This is a good point. Technically, if he got Peter/4 Dolla Holla, the odds of him getting an FTM go way up. Along with any other draw card he can play first turn.
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wouldnt the odds of finding 2 specific cards in your opening hand be marginally less than finding 1?
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Right. But finding that 1 OR finding 2 specific cards while having that one card in your top 4 would be more likely than just finding that 1.
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The most potent Samuel band is Oak to Samuel (a 5 card advantage) to Armorbearer to Ishmiah (now 8 cards) to Asahel to Saul with TToD out (now 9+ cards and play-first). If you think that sounds like a lot of cards for a combo, I have played over 15 games with Samuel and had it out by turn 4 about 10 of them. Samuel first turn is almost guaranteed (10% of the cards in the deck deck after LS's create a 1st turn Sam), and the drawing starts piling up so quickly (in addition to the fact that Sam himself searches for Saul) that you'd have to have improbably bad luck to not have this combo out very quickly.
sorry to quote this from pages back, but I didn't see anyone contest the play-first with TToD in the posts (I may have missed it) and unless I'm missing something in this combo, TToD's play first ability is negated by Samuel.
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true, it was already mentioned elsewhere (this thread or the other), and thats often overlooked. good catch.
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Buying 20 of something and eating 16 is not normal. But on math it is. Math; not even once.
This is a good point. Technically, if he got Peter/4 Dolla Holla, the odds of him getting an FTM go way up. Along with any other draw card he can play first turn.
I ignored a lot of factors in that (another big one being that he got to go first every time he got Mayhem).
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Due to lack of interest / occupation with the new set, Testing periods are suspended until interest picks up again.
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Instead, start testing the debated NJ rule, as well as Kirk's proposition!
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UBER necropost, but I was perusing this by chance and think this is still a relevant thread. What does that say about the state of the game if cards 7 years ago are still nearly as or more abuseable now than they were on release (AutO, Sam, Throne, Ahimilek, Haman's Plot, NJ/TSC, ANB, and, to a far-lesser extent, Mayhem)?
Merely an observation- I don't expect this thread to revive and I wasn't looking to do so. Feel free to also observe how far we've come (no TGT, no Thad, no Liner) whilst still seeing how far we've yet to go in terms of diversifying themes, phasing out problem cards, etc. ;)
Carry on.
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Wouldn't you say that part of that is due to more balanced cards being made in recent sets (Children of Light notwithstanding)?
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UBER necropost, but I was perusing this by chance and think this is still a relevant thread. What does that say about the state of the game if cards 7 years ago are still nearly as or more abuseable now than they were on release (AutO, Sam, Throne, Ahimilek, Haman's Plot, NJ/TSC, ANB, and, to a far-lesser extent, Mayhem)?
Merely an observation- I don't expect this thread to revive and I wasn't looking to do so. Feel free to also observe how far we've come (no TGT, no Thad, no Liner) whilst still seeing how far we've yet to go in terms of diversifying themes, phasing out problem cards, etc. ;)
Carry on.
Of those cards, the only one I think that still deserves to be banned for diversity/power reasons is Throne and for game health reasons, Plot and NJ/TSC (accompanied by a rule change to 4 souls required to win in T1). It may because it's pre-Nats and no one wants to share secrets but FoM feels like the first truly diverse meta we've had in a while. There are several decks that could all potentially be the best and still more I haven't tried.