Author Topic: Deck building requirements  (Read 4204 times)

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Deck building requirements
« on: August 16, 2018, 11:13:36 AM »
+1
Not sure if this should go here or another sub-board...

I played a LOT of games with the I/J starters at the Alive festival last month, teaching new players how to play Redemption.  Based on that experience, I think the deck building requirements could be adjusted for the betterment of the game.  Here's what I'd change for T1:

50 cards minimum
1 LS for every 5 cards of deck (so 10 for a 50 card deck)
Dom cap = 1/2 the number of LS, rounded down
Site cap = 1/2 the number of LS, rounded down (this is not as necessary in my mind - I just happen to not like Sites and I'd prefer not to play against a T1 deck that has 10 Sites in it)
Reserve = 1/10 the number of cards in deck, rounded down (capped at 10) (I think this would be good, since the Reserve is really just an extension of the deck and a way to get around HSR)
Starting hand = 10 cards (I've actually tested this before - Josiah was a proponent of it back in the day.  I think it enhanced the game and moved things along quicker, which is good, since timeouts are not rare)

Soul drought was a huge issue with the starter decks.  The decks move so slow that I was literally seeing players get droughted for 3-5 turns most games.  The starter decks have less drawing and soul gen (almost none of each, honestly), so I guess you could solve the problem by adding more.  Honestly, I'd rather just have more LS in the decks.  And 10 is such a nice round number, and 1/5 is such an easy mental math ratio, that I think it just makes sense to go this route. 
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2018, 11:26:45 AM »
+1
I agree that soul drought happens too much with the starters, but I think the constructed formats are fine with all the great soul gen cards out there. So I would rather see new starters at some point rather than change deck building rules.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2018, 11:30:28 AM »
0
I agree that soul drought happens too much with the starters, but I think the constructed formats are fine with all the great soul gen cards out there. So I would rather see new starters at some point rather than change deck building rules.

I'd be curious to see if Soul Gen is still needed if T1 decks had 10 LS instead of 7.  I think they'd still need some if their offense is fast.  Variance is a real thing. 

It's my personal opinion that Redemption "problems" that can be solved via game rules/deck building requirements usually should be, as opposed to introducing new cards or de facto requiring players to play certain cards/abilities in their decks.  Sure, Redemption has a lot of Soul Gen now - but why should I feel obligated to include it in my deck?  I want my deck to be about winning battles on offense and stopping rescues on defense, and I want the maximum flexibility/deck space to dedicate to these two fundamental game strategies.  I feel that I shouldn't have to include my own cards to even let me attack for souls in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:35:38 AM by Josh »
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline NathanW

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2018, 11:33:40 AM »
+1
I would love to see the day where soul gen is optional, not necessary. The idea of toying with the lost soul ratio and starting hand size appeals to me because it's not a really drastic change.
(\__/) This is a bunny.
(='.'=) I know it's cute.
(")_(")

#CascadeDelendaEst

Offline Bobbert

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • The player formerly known as Thomas Hunter
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2018, 11:34:06 AM »
0
Just put Ends of the Earth in the next starter decks! /sbutnotreally
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2018, 11:34:43 AM »
0
10 souls would make starter deck gameplay better but it would speed up constructed decks too much. Likewise with 10 card starting hands. I agree with Red Wing that the answer is not changing game rules but rather making starter decks that better reflect actual Redemption gameplay.

The only game changing method I've been a fan of to deal with soul gen is to separate lost souls into a separate Lost Soul deck where you draw a fixed amount of souls from the soul deck over a set period of time and decks were just 50 non-soul cards. This would solve soul gen in starter decks and constructed as well as slowing the game down.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 11:39:10 AM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2018, 11:37:55 AM »
0
I would love to see the day where soul gen is optional, not necessary. The idea of toying with the lost soul ratio and starting hand size appeals to me because it's not a really drastic change.
It's also worth noting that most of the competitive soul gen cards aren't strictly played to fish out souls. Prisoner at Gaza is reserve access, Covet steals your opponents best soul, Ends gives you enhancements... I would play them even with a 10 soul minimum.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2018, 11:38:35 AM »
0
Agree with adjusting future starter decks.

Keep in mind--starter deck games are not meant to be "attack every turn" like constructed formats end up being.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2018, 11:43:45 AM »
+1
10 souls would make starter deck gameplay better but it would speed up constructed decks too much. Likewise with 10 card starting hands. I agree with Red Wing that the answer is not changing game rules but rather making starter decks that better reflect actual Redemption gameplay.

What if AUTO, Sam, Throne, and a few other oppressive speed cards were gone from the game?  And future draw/search abilities were not as oppressive?  Would it make more sense then, or do you think it will never make sense?

Also, timeouts are not rare in tournaments these days.  Negate abilities slow the game down sooooo much.  Is it a bad thing to speed up the game?

Agree with adjusting future starter decks.

Keep in mind--starter deck games are not meant to be "attack every turn" like constructed formats end up being.

But when a player can't attack and their opponent can, that quickly leads to NPE on the part of the player who can't attack. 

Keep in mind that almost all the new players I taught (at a Christian music festival no less!) were big into MtG, Yugioh, Pokemon, or a combination of them.  MtG being the most common.  I could see frustration on faces when they couldn't attack for turns on end while their opponent could.  That's a game experience that is out of their control and they feel like they can't do anything about it (because they can't), and my explanation can't be "Well, don't worry, once you get better cards, your experience will be different".  They need the good experience when they learn the game.
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2018, 11:50:38 AM »
+3
Agree with adjusting future starter decks.

Keep in mind--starter deck games are not meant to be "attack every turn" like constructed formats end up being.

Starter decks should be designed to mimic constructed gameplay. Redemption as a game heavily pushes players toward attacking every turn regardless of the power level you are playing at (Barring outlier strategies such as Watchful Servant decks) because being limited to one attack per turn is biggest bottleneck towards winning so skipping an attack is wasting a valuable resource.

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2018, 11:58:34 AM »
+2
Also, timeouts are not rare in tournaments these days.  Negate abilities slow the game down sooooo much.  Is it a bad thing to speed up the game?
I would only want the game to speed up if we could somehow implement best 2/3 without too much of a type half mini game feel. I generally find the games that run closer to time more enjoyable anyway.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline Red

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • *****
  • Posts: 4789
  • It takes time to build the boat.
    • LFG
    • Southeast Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
0
I am not in favor of capping the Reserve. The Reserve adds great depth to deck building and gameplay, Reducing the size of the reserve would negatively impact gameplay, not help it.
Ironman 2016 and 2018 Winner.
3rd T1-2P 2018, 3rd T2-2P 2019
I survived the Flood twice.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2018, 12:16:51 PM »
0
What if AUTO, Sam, Throne, and a few other oppressive speed cards were gone from the game?  And future draw/search abilities were not as oppressive?  Would it make more sense then, or do you think it will never make sense?

IMO it would never make sense to move to 10 lost souls and 10 card starting hands. Absolutely not without set rotation and likely even post rotation it would still give too much consistency. The game is only going to get faster and more consistent as time goes on.

Offline ChristianSoldier

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1613
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2018, 01:54:33 AM »
0
Would this just be for T1 or would this also apply to T2? I can't say for sure what I'd think about 20 Lost Souls in a T2 Deck (it would definitely weaken my Daniel Deck a bit) it would be a bit harder to fit everything in, plus this makes 104 the "best" number for minimum Lost Soul Ratio. It would also mean I wouldn't have to care quite as much about putting in Soul Generation if my opponent had six more Lost Souls in their deck.

I actually really like the 10 card starting hand, would this also change the end of turn max hand size to 10? Or would it still be 8?

I already build decks with the assumption that I always have to defend, so I'm not really bothered by Lost Souls being more consistently available.

An interesting effects is that you get to your cards quicker, because Lost Souls don't take draws, so that could have some interesting implications for the game. Plus with powerful Lost Soul abilities, it could actually be a benefit to having more Lost Souls in your deck.

I personally would prefer a separate Lost Soul deck as that would eliminate drought and give space for more non Lost Soul cards in my deck. But all in all it's an interesting idea.
If you are reading this signature, thank a physicist.

Offline SEB

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • *****
  • Posts: 356
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2018, 11:00:39 AM »
+3
For constructed T1, I think soul drought with soul generation is a great design space, currently I dont know that much (if any) changes are required.

During Alive, I had a similar problem than no souls, but I felt that it was no Characters in general that made for a "bad" experience for teaching. I had many games when the person I was teaching did not have a single Evil Character to resist, or no heroes for a rescue attempt. For all practical purpose no characters (be it a LS, Hero, or EC) have the same issue in teaching with starter decks.

My Recommendation is put in a few Heroes/EC that are TC and say something like: "when this character is discarded from anywhere, place in an opponent's land of Bondage." Bump up the number of Heroes and EC by one or two, and put Fiery Chariots in one deck and David's Harp in the other. Or Enhancements that allow you to tutor up characters.

Another recommendation is to actually name the starter decks, and do a single player starter deck (the market has done both, but most CCG players are used to a single player starter deck - this was confirmed to me by the mass confusion at Alive when I had to keep explaining to people that there were two decks in a starter deck box). Starer K/L is rather boring in today's market, and not very thematic to a gaming experience. 
Examples to consider:
"Apple of God's Eye" (A deck around the Shepherd David)
"Heavenly Hosts" (A deck around the warring angels of the O.T.)
"Turning it Upside-down" (a deck about the first deacons)
"Consuming Fire" (around the story of Elijah bringing God's message against the wicked queen)

The goal with the starter decks should be to
1) Learn the card types
2) Learn the basic mechanics (not EVERY rule and nuisance)
3) Learn the love for the game
Check Out Redemption's Exahaustive Search tool:
Lexicon

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+10)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1278
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Deck building requirements
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2018, 05:15:47 PM »
0
I also fully agree with the proposal for new starter decks to make the introduction of Redemption a far more exciting experience!
In addition I can confirm all the drawbacks that come with the current starters (well with I/J it became a little bit better) and which make the first contact and introduction to the game often a Not very exciting experience.

This is a real pitty!

New starters with more meaningful and cool names - which I also second - would be able to deal with all these drawbacks and would provide possibility to catch up there!
Classic name scheme can be kept in addition (as main name or as addendum).

I really would like to see new starters soon - even more with all the new cards and concepts being introduced since the last starters appeared!
While I like the idea of having starters available as double pack (which is also somewhat unique or at least not common) selling new starters as single decks would be also fine or a good idea.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal