Author Topic: Redemption Online Web  (Read 4427 times)

Offline KellyKimble

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Redemption Online Web
« on: May 10, 2018, 05:45:10 PM »
+3
Hi guys,
I am looking for help in completing a web based version of Redemption.  I started developing it about 3 or 4 years ago and thought it was complete enough to put out for testing and soliciting help from others in completing it.  I am not interested in making money off it, I would like it to be free as possible and bring glory to God.  I am willing to spend reasonable amounts to support it as a ministry and I figured it could advertise the playing cards and Cactus Games. 

People will be able to design/personalize their own cards with points they earn as they go, "buy" additional cards for their decks with them, etc.  They can play against the computer or against others.  I mostly coded against the G/H decks since that is what I owned.  Eventually I would like to add virtual reality to it (how hard can it be!   ::) )  mostly because redemption requires a large playing surface and the 3D interactions would be very simple. 

Here is my biggest issue:  I developed this on a 7 year old laptop under MS SQL, using Visual Studio C#, and Javascript.  I was excited to get to the point where I could put it on Azure and enjoy some server based speed, rather than running the database, web server, and browser, plus various programs all at once on an older laptop.  Boy was I surprised by the dismal speed and associated premium price tag of Azure!  My old laptop ran it 10 to 20 times faster even while doing everything else.  Now I am thinking I might need to convert to MySql and set up a local network connection with my own hardware because I do not want to spend 10000.00 for Microsoft licensing!

I would love any help people could give in this.  I can share more details to those who are interested. 

kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 05:49:44 PM »
0
We began developing a Redemption app in Unreal engine. It is free and we have a TCG template to start. With your knowledge of programming you may be able to make it work.

I would love to see a Redemption app on Computer, Google Play store, and iTunes store.. Lackey practically has all of the card images and card data already.

Please reach out to me if I can be of further assistance. My programming knowledge is simply too limited to complete the app myself with Unreal.

Offline bluefrog1288

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 08:09:03 PM »
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You've got my support.  Will there be a kickstarter?


Offline KellyKimble

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 09:45:36 PM »
+1
kariusvega:  I've never tried to use the unreal engine.  I don't know how well that would work over the internet plus I am not all that good at graphics.  Most of my time was spent on the logic.  I probably refactored my design 4 times as I went down the road and discovered "hmm.  I can't accommodate this card...".  Rules that affect rules, but not when other rules affect this rule unless....  Some of them get really really complex (try the Battle Interrupt for instance.)   :) The downside, and upside of my design is that almost everything happens in SQL.  That means every rule and definition is dynamic.  That gives it great flexibility, but SQL does not make a great programming language.  It's a very good data retrieval language.  I've thought of refactoring again to bring the calculating logic out of SQL and down to C#, but I can't keep doing that and I do not know what the penalties will be.  There are a lot of IOs involved in each move.  One of the beautiful things about it is that even a novice can play it because it tells you which moves are valid.  Back to the unreal engine, it does not matter much what front end is stapled onto it.  As long as that front end can take data from a c#/SQL source.  But I really want it to be available via web so everyday people can have access. 

Offline KellyKimble

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 09:48:20 PM »
+1
bluefrog1288: A kickstarter fundraiser?  I had not planned on it.  Might be something to look into to acquire MSSQL licenses so I don't have to spend another quarter of a year converting from MSSQL to MySql (not knowing how it will turn out).  It will probably need 4 cores and I just checked on pricing, 14000.00+ for 1 license.  But that's enterprise version and I think that is 2 cores.  I think standard version would probably work and that would be roughly 6500.00 (I think) for 4 cores.

kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 10:04:41 PM »
0
kariusvega:  I've never tried to use the unreal engine.  I don't know how well that would work over the internet plus I am not all that good at graphics.  Most of my time was spent on the logic.  I probably refactored my design 4 times as I went down the road and discovered "hmm.  I can't accommodate this card...".  Rules that affect rules, but not when other rules affect this rule unless....  Some of them get really really complex (try the Battle Interrupt for instance.)   :) The downside, and upside of my design is that almost everything happens in SQL.  That means every rule and definition is dynamic.  That gives it great flexibility, but SQL does not make a great programming language.  It's a very good data retrieval language.  I've thought of refactoring again to bring the calculating logic out of SQL and down to C#, but I can't keep doing that and I do not know what the penalties will be.  There are a lot of IOs involved in each move.  One of the beautiful things about it is that even a novice can play it because it tells you which moves are valid.  Back to the unreal engine, it does not matter much what front end is stapled onto it.  As long as that front end can take data from a c#/SQL source.  But I really want it to be available via web so everyday people can have access.

this is exactly what the app needs for learning purposes and consistency for veteran players alike. programmed rules, and the ability to show valid moves...

keep track of ongoing abilities when ongoing abilities are active etc

Daniel

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2018, 10:10:27 PM »
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I would love to see a screenshot of the progress you've made with this!

Offline NathanW

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2018, 10:19:52 PM »
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Assuming all of the rules and cards are logically compatible with each other (which I think they are) it should be totally possible to automate everything (in theory). A very interesting project indeed.
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Offline KellyKimble

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2018, 10:33:00 PM »
+1
I can't seem to upload photos but I posted an image of the game to my Facebook page.  I couldn't think of a better public way to do it.  Here is the link:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211705875621642&set=a.1078795729359.2012535.1210246913&type=3&theater

Offline KellyKimble

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2018, 10:44:54 PM »
0
2nd image, shows a little bit of the rules:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211705903502339&set=a.1078795729359.2012535.1210246913&type=3&theater

Clicking the question mark will flash the playable cards one by one while a message about how the card can be played scrolls across the top.  Keep in mind, I am NOT a designer, but I did the best I could.  The card piles scroll right and left.  Each player has different cards visible (a challenge in and of itself!)

I would like to cut the text off the images and overlay it instead and display it to the left.  As the mouse moves across a card (or it is touched in a certain way on touch screens) the details show up in the upper left corner.

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2018, 10:48:58 AM »
0
I would love to see a Redemption app on Computer, Google Play store, and iTunes store.. Lackey practically has all of the card images and card data already.
Free image server.  Gotta love it!

Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2018, 10:57:07 AM »
+2
I would love to see a Redemption app on Computer, Google Play store, and iTunes store.. Lackey practically has all of the card images and card data already.
Free image server.  Gotta love it!

Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

Redemption desperately needs coded rules. The ruling questions section of this forum has 80000 posts. These questions would be ironed out with coded rules and a tutorial.

App store exposure is major. Mobile access and optimization is major. Mobile banking tied to the app store for micro transactions is fundamental to longevity and greater success. See Candy Crush  ;D
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 12:14:27 AM by kariusvega »

Offline KellyKimble

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2018, 03:08:13 PM »
0
Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

What I have is HTML/JavaScript, not an App.  It does run on a phone touch screen, but the interface needs improvement. 

Offline Zerutul

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2018, 03:36:10 PM »
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kariusvega:  I've never tried to use the unreal engine.  I don't know how well that would work over the internet plus I am not all that good at graphics.  Most of my time was spent on the logic.  I probably refactored my design 4 times as I went down the road and discovered "hmm.  I can't accommodate this card...".  Rules that affect rules, but not when other rules affect this rule unless....  Some of them get really really complex (try the Battle Interrupt for instance.)   :) The downside, and upside of my design is that almost everything happens in SQL.  That means every rule and definition is dynamic.  That gives it great flexibility, but SQL does not make a great programming language.  It's a very good data retrieval language.  I've thought of refactoring again to bring the calculating logic out of SQL and down to C#, but I can't keep doing that and I do not know what the penalties will be.  There are a lot of IOs involved in each move.  One of the beautiful things about it is that even a novice can play it because it tells you which moves are valid.  Back to the unreal engine, it does not matter much what front end is stapled onto it.  As long as that front end can take data from a c#/SQL source.  But I really want it to be available via web so everyday people can have access.

Everything happening via SQL is not only a major performance hazard but entirely unmaintainable. It's incredible expensive to query databases, especially a robust one like microsoft SQL along with the fact that multiple people hitting the DB during the middle of a match for every single play would be crazy. I think unreal engine is also like shooting a mouse with an elephant gun. Literally all you would have to do is make a simple browser integrated client that people can access with simple graphics and the ability to use all the cards. Start off simple with a format like Lackey just browser integrated. Work up to more complexity after that by adding game rules and such. The key to programming is taking up a project in small easy to implement chunks then working towards complexity.

I would be happy to help but probably not on an unreal engine project and more of just a web focused one.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 03:40:27 PM by Zerutul »

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2018, 03:44:22 PM »
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Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

What I have is HTML/JavaScript, not an App.  It does run on a phone touch screen, but the interface needs improvement.
Apologies, my question about app vs browser-based was directed at kariusvega.  I understand you probably don't have SQL Server running on a phone.  ;)  (I sent you a PM.)

I would be happy to help but probably not on an unreal engine project and more of just a web focused one.
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Offline Zerutul

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2018, 03:50:37 PM »
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Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

What I have is HTML/JavaScript, not an App.  It does run on a phone touch screen, but the interface needs improvement.
Apologies, my question about app vs browser-based was directed at kariusvega.  I understand you probably don't have SQL Server running on a phone.  ;)  (I sent you a PM.)

I would be happy to help but probably not on an unreal engine project and more of just a web focused one.
How's your Erlang?

I never worked with Erlang. I'm employed as a Java service layer developer but I also know C#, Javascript/Angular/ReactJS, and Python.

kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2018, 03:56:08 PM »
-1
I would love to see a Redemption app on Computer, Google Play store, and iTunes store.. Lackey practically has all of the card images and card data already.
Free image server.  Gotta love it!

Question--how important is it that this be a app?  What if you had a spiffy browser-based play arena?  Something like Jinteki.net is for NetRunner.  The code is open sourced, but obviously doesn't help if you are set on a native app.

Redemption desperately needs coded rules. The ruling questions section of this forum has 80000 topics. These questions would be ironed out with coded rules and a tutorial.

App store exposure is major. Mobile access and optimization is major. Mobile banking tied to the app store for micro transactions is fundamental to longevity and greater success. See Candy Crush  ;D

Having a browser based version could be okay, but what kind of access does it give us to a fresh market? What does it have in terms of streamlined and already stored financial data for transaction through Google and iTunes?

The primary benefit of app store exposure is access to a multi million person market, which Redemption is severed from. This also gives Redemption access to all of these people's money, which will pull Redemption out of the darkness it is currently buried in. 1000 members with 80000 ruling topics speaks for itself..

Don't be afraid to talk about money. If you're involved in the development, get yourself a cut. Yes, we need to make money. Guess what? Apps make tons of money with micro transactions. Micro transactions are affordable, the app cuts major card developmental issues along with long errata lists and ruling documents which still do not determine outcomes, and I'm positive Redemption would do great on app stores considering some bogus "Redemption CCG" app(NOT our game of Redemption) already exists and has thousands of downloads.

Starting off simple I agree is the way to go.. I/J is 100 cards, it can be free. Then have micro transactions for further set releases.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2018, 04:06:05 PM »
+1
Quote
This also gives Redemption access to all of these people's money, which will pull Redemption out of the darkness it is currently buried in.

Except it's not...Rob just shared this morning that the initial print run of Fall of Man (which was double the initial print run of RoJ) has already sold out. I also heard from Rob recently that he's ordering more print runs of RoJ and Early Church so clearly those are still selling as well.

I'm not against the development of a Redemption app by any means, but arguing for it to happen based on false premises is not the way to go IMO.

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2018, 04:14:05 PM »
+2
Quote
This also gives Redemption access to all of these people's money, which will pull Redemption out of the darkness it is currently buried in.

Except it's not...Rob just shared this morning that the initial print run of Fall of Man (which was double the initial print run of RoJ) has already sold out. I also heard from Rob recently that he's ordering more print runs of RoJ and Early Church so clearly those are still selling as well.

Given that Redemption is print on demand and the actual Redemption print runs are not public (or even consistent according to Rob), this isnt really as impressive as its supposed to sound. I think JD has a point when there are less than 100 active players total and as many ruling questions as there are.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2018, 04:22:52 PM »
+1
Where do you come up with less than 100 active players?
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Offline Zerutul

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 04:25:32 PM »
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Where do you come up with less than 100 active players?

Can a case be made for much more then 100? I mean I can count on barely two hands the number of truly active players in Missouri. (Actual tournament participants and spend regularly on the game)

Offline Four_Corners5

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2018, 04:30:57 PM »
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What constitutes as active?

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2018, 04:33:12 PM »
+2
Attendance for the past 2 National tournaments has been right at 100...I can say with confidence that not every single active player has been attending Nationals.

I don't have concrete data to back this up, but personally I think the player-base of Redemption is higher than most people think...but right now it is suffering from a lack of people able to host tournaments (or players simply being spread too far apart to make tournaments feasible). Although nowhere near the levels it once had, Minnesota itself probably has around 30 players who have attended a tournament this season, but they are not concentrated in one area so most tournaments end up being around 10 people.

EDIT* This thread is starting to get away from it's main purpose--the discussion of an app or web-based version. I will make no further comments here unrelated to that topic.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 04:36:26 PM by The Guardian »
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2018, 04:35:21 PM »
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kariusvega

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2018, 04:49:37 PM »
+2
Attendance for the past 2 National tournaments has been right at 100...I can say with confidence that not every single active player has been attending Nationals.

I don't have concrete data to back this up, but personally I think the player-base of Redemption is higher than most people think...but right now it is suffering from a lack of people able to host tournaments (or players simply being spread too far apart to make tournaments feasible). Although nowhere near the levels it once had, Minnesota itself probably has around 30 players who have attended a tournament this season, but they are not concentrated in one area so most tournaments end up being around 10 people.

EDIT* This thread is starting to get away from it's main purpose--the discussion of an app or web-based version. I will make no further comments here unrelated to that topic.

Well the point is that the app stores provide Redemption with ultimate access to the largest open and active current market consisting of more than 1 billion active devices- people who have never heard of Redemption. Relatively speaking, Hearthstone would be considered a dead game at less than 1000 active players. Redemption, on the other hand, can never die because it is based on the Word of Christ.

If I had the money this would already be done. I appreciate people's efforts in making this dream a reality, and part of that involves getting paid. Another part of that is fulfilling Redemption's ultimate goal of ministry and saving actual lost souls.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2018, 08:53:31 PM »
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I can say with confidence that not every single active player has been attending Nationals.

As long as I am alive, this will always be true.  ;)

What constitutes as active?

I think this is where there will be discrepancies. However, since we are talking about apps, an active player is simply someone who plays the game, even by themselves. In fact, people who are alone are more likely to pay for an app that they can play solo.

Can a case be made for much more then 100?

I can say definitively that there are still 10 players from my Florida playgroup that still play Redemption, even though I no longer host tournaments. To say that there are not 100 active players would say that there are not at least 2 people playing in every state, and that doesn't even include other countries. I think that is extremely far-fetched.  ;)

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Offline Deck Metrics

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2018, 09:24:56 PM »
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I can say with confidence that not every single active player has been attending Nationals.

As long as I am alive, this will always be true.  ;)

What constitutes as active?

I think this is where there will be discrepancies. However, since we are talking about apps, an active player is simply someone who plays the game, even by themselves. In fact, people who are alone are more likely to pay for an app that they can play solo.

Can a case be made for much more then 100?

I can say definitively that there are still 10 players from my Florida playgroup that still play Redemption, even though I no longer host tournaments. To say that there are not 100 active players would say that there are not at least 2 people playing in every state, and that doesn't even include other countries. I think that is extremely far-fetched.  ;)

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2018, 12:11:49 AM »
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Sorry I was talking about board members, not players total; I was talking about the ratio of active players on the boards to ruling questions.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2018, 01:14:25 AM »
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Sorry I was talking about board members, not players total; I was talking about the ratio of active players on the boards to ruling questions.

Gotcha, in that case I agree 100 is a reasonable number of people who frequent the boards. Obviously no one has time to go through and catalog all those threads and posts, but if one did, my guess is that the general principles behind the questions boil down to a few dozen topics.
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2018, 04:24:15 AM »
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For what it's worth...

I think reasonable guesses can be made as to what the print on demand set print runs are. Remember that while the normal print runs are not published we do know the number of boxes printed for the past few Nationals. We also have the numbers for the additional print Rob made for the AB set back earlier this year.

I feel it's safe to assume that the Nationals Alternate Border print runs are either equal to or below average that of normal print runs. Though we don't know how many times each of these new sets have been reprinted...

While those print numbers aren't huge it is a fairly reasonable number and if these sets are printed multiple times it does show the game isn't dead by any stretch of the means. Not the numbers it once had but it is definitely making sales.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 04:28:53 AM by Isildur »
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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2019, 04:05:53 PM »
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How's this project been coming along?

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2019, 03:56:02 PM »
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Sort of related... I'd really like to start up a Redemption rules processor project. Is there anyone who's forever answering ruling questions very knowledgeable of how the rules interact that would like to help me out when I have questions? Let me know and send me a message so we can figure out how to work together and chat about things.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2019, 04:06:54 PM »
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I'd really like to start up a Redemption rules processor project.
What do you mean by "Redemption rules processor?"

Offline thejambi

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2019, 06:43:25 PM »
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I'd really like to start up a Redemption rules processor project.
What do you mean by "Redemption rules processor?"
The rules logic and everything, I guess!
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Offline Reth

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2019, 05:14:19 PM »
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But is there really any chance to get the rules and interactive possibilities reflected in some logic or algorithms? One possibility I could think about would be defining some kind of categories/characteristics for all qualifiers, identifiers, modifiers etc. and maybe marking interacting possibilities of these in some kind of matrix or multidimensional array or so. Afterwards each card gets all relevant categories/characteristics assigned and algorithms/logic could evaluate them.

But this is just an idea without further thinking nor investigation. IMHO such kind of problems already have been solved for other games, problems etc.

Offline KellyKimble

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Redemption Online Web - status update
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2019, 01:08:35 AM »
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Status update on the game: 
It is playable! But not complete.  I am looking for a couple testers now.  It also wouldn't hurt to have help on the web front end if anyone is skilled. 

I see there have been a few messages posted here that I never saw even though I have notifications turned on.  Sorry if anyone expected a response from me and never got one. 

By the way, previously a move would take 10 seconds (give or take) on my 8 year old laptop.  I thought when I went to Azure, on a real server, it would speed  it way up.  Wow, was it ever slower!  So I had to redesign the game under C#, rather than SQL.  When I was testing the game (I did finally buy a new laptop by the way) I set computer against computer and clocked it at thousands of moves within 30 seconds.  I figure that's fast enough!

FYI: I started a second topic called Redemption Online Web II.

Offline Reth

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Re: Redemption Online Web
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2019, 01:47:13 PM »
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