Author Topic: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?  (Read 1660 times)

Offline Noah

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Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« on: June 19, 2016, 08:55:22 PM »
+1
I'm having a hard time coming up with a build that has useful enhancements for non "son of Jacob" Genesis Heroes in Type-2. You'd think it would be easier in Type-2 because if there was a good enhancement worth using you could just use 4 of it, but I can't find any good battle winners that are either CBN or that interrupt + win the battle. The only one I've considered using 4 of was Abraham's Descendant, but now I'm not so sure about that due to the new Moses.

My only stipulation is that the offense has to include 2 copies each of Abraham, Isaac, and Angel at Shur. the rest of the offense is up for speculation.

I had considered splashing green in with the offense via Noah and Ezekiel, since the defense is Crimson, but then I'm left without any decent cards to play on Abraham if I need to rescue with him. The only other problem with green is that they also do not have any real good battle winners. The only interrupt + battle winner I know of is Two Bears, and that usually gets negated 9 times out of 10.

I've heard of a deck that utilizes Creation of the World to get a Genesis offense out quickly, but I don't see how it could be that effective if there are no good enhancements to play on your heroes.

Another option I've considered is using CTB cards like Provisions and OoN, the problem with that is that it requires a less popular defense and, in the case of OoN, a way to play it pre-block, which seems to be countered by a lot of stuff nowadays.

I'm not totally against using sons of Jacob. I just didn't want to be forced to include Joseph Before Pharaoh if I didn't have to, since it won't work on Abraham.

For the sake of clarity, every time I mention "good" in the context of an enhancement I mean it as "a useful or powerful card", not alignment.

Any help would be much appreciated.
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kariusvega

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2016, 09:39:42 PM »
0
Abraham's servant is great on Abe especially with Coliseum and his banding ;) so is Sign of the Rainbow another consideration is how many good battle winners do you actually need if you can consistently clear the board with Isaac and Faith of Noah? the Creation of the World build is very fast with Answer to Prayer and Eve

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2016, 10:05:38 PM »
+1
New Joesph+Zebulun is pretty baller and doesn't require enhancements. Faith Among Corruption is a must include in any Genesis deck, Ham and Noah are both very playable to give you CBN options.
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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2016, 11:18:42 PM »
+1
I have to second the things mentioned by JD and John. In addition to the other powerful things an early Creation can do, repeated CBN Simeon + Levi can put a defense on it's heals. Couple that with I am Holy for twice the brutality.

If you go the CTB route, you don't have to use a defense that's not popular, you only need to have characters with a defense of 3 or less so they die instantly when you have Covenant with Adam or Crown of Thorns active. The idea behind CTB is to get initiative so you can play a bunch of nasty stuff, or win instantly.

If you're set on using Abraham you should be sure to include a pair of Abe's Army and reliable ways to capture Heroes.

Depending on the defense you use Cup or Wrath can also be a powerful ally.

If you end up in green, Faith of Samuel can become a CBI battle winner with Abe's Army. And you get it back with CoW.

One more plug for Abe's Army. I hear Egyptians might be OK. A converted Cupbearer makes for some interesting plays.

There are a lot of powerful paths to victory using Genesis. But it plays differently that other brigades.

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Offline Josh

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2016, 08:20:47 AM »
+1
My first thought is, "Why do you want to exclude something from your offense that is arguably the most powerful portion of it?"  But if that's what you want...   ;)

I was going to suggest Abe's Servant to Ur, but kariusvega beat me to it.  Coliseum and a few Covenants would help this strategy.

Sword of the Spirit can be held by Abe.  A few copies of Eve's Descendant are probably not a bad idea.  I admit these ideas aren't great, they just hadn't been mentioned above yet.

You could try a Red/Blue deck that focuses on banding in battle-winning cards with Battle Cry or United Army (Isaac, Abe's Army, Ahimelek, Foreign Sword).

You could try a T2 version of "The Deck" that uses Blue/Gold/Silver and is a bit hero-heavy.  You could have Abe/AaS/Isaac, Jacob/AUTO/Moses, Joshua/Captain, Rachel/Jacob/Captain, Simeon/Captain, etc. as possible attacks.  I actually like this idea best, if I am building a deck with your restriction in mind.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2016, 12:53:40 PM »
+1
If the Crimson you mentioned is Babylonians then most likely capture will be a big part of your defense (Head of Gold/Magic Charms) so Abram's Army x2 fits incredibly well.

Aside from that, I think the best option is going to be Coliseum and all the Genesis negates. Jacob/Rachel/Captain of the Host is still a very strong band, especially with Answer to Prayer still being at your disposal. Cov of Noah takes care of CBP Lost Soul.

Coliseum stops protection chump blocks so you would just need to run Thorns LS to stop DoU/SSS.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 12:59:55 PM by The Guardian »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2016, 01:53:44 PM »
0
Just for fun, I made an offense for a 100 card T2 deck with a 37/37/26 split, combining my "The Deck" idea with Justin's great suggestions.  I'm no T2 player, so take this with a grain of salt  ;)  I really like Birth Foretold in a deck with Isaac, since Isaac already wants angels around him.

Good:  37
SoG/TSC/AotL/GoW/GoYS
Abraham x2
Isaac x2
Angel at Shur x2
Jacob (FF)
Rachel (FF)
Captain of the Host (Ki)
The Strong Angel (Ki)
Israelite Archer x2
Joshua, Son of Nun
AUTO x2
Simeon (Wa)
Helez (Ki)
Ira (Ki)
Abe's Army
Covenant With Noah x2
Abe's Servant to Ur x2
Abe's Descendant x3
Faith of Abraham
Birth Foretold x2
Faith of Sarah x2

Evil:  37
Coliseum
Captured Ark x2-3

Neutral:  26
LS - Thorns x2
Miraculous Handkerchiefs
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 01:57:32 PM by jmhartz »
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Offline Noah

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2016, 02:37:14 PM »
0
Thanks for all the great responses everybody!

Based on what everone has mentioned so far, it seems to me that Genesis is very centered around characters and negates, more so than any other brigade.

In light of that, I agree that Coliseum + negates seems to be the best way to go.

I would still like to have some battle winners, however, so I came up with this little build that uses the blue mostly for negates and recursion, and the green for the battle winners.

Total Good:  37

Good Doms: 5

SoG/TSC/AotL/GoW/GoYS

Good Forts: 1
Cloud of Witnesses

Covenants: 2
You will remain
Eternal Covenant

Heroes: 17
The Angel of the Winds
The Angel at Shur x2
Ezekiel x2
Hosea
Abram's Army
Melchizedek
Enoch
Jacob (Israel)
Noah x2
Eli the Priest
Abraham x2
Isaac x2

Good Enhancements: 12
Love
Faith of Abraham
Faith of Samuel x2
Two Bears x4
Abraham's Descendant x4

Sites: 4
Golgotha x2
CP x2

DAEs: 4

Forest Fire x2
Drawn Sword x2

Evil Forts: 3
Coliseum x3

Eli is in here to grab some artifacts that are important for the defense.

Love is in here because I can use it to convert Abraham/Isaac to green if I need to, since they are both prophets, and I can use it to both heal a character and then exchange it to deck via Noah and reuse it.

My idea is to use Abraham's Descendant and Two Bears to recur EEs off of Golgotha, including the DAE Ezekiel battle winners. That way my offense is almost endlessly fed battle winners/negates from Abe's Kid and Two Bears recursion.

I only have two Babylonians on defense, so I won't be doing any capturing.

My biggest concerns are Moses negating Abraham's Descendant, and Hezekiah's Signet Ring keeping me out of the discard pile.

Also, I wasn't sure how many Coliseum's I should have. I consider it an integral part of the offense and would want to have one out all the time. I also expect it to get taken out at some point by Shipwreck or something so I think I'd need at least 2.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2016, 02:41:37 PM »
0
Just one thing to keep in mind running 4 copies of your most important GEs...  Beware Confusion   :o
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Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2016, 03:55:47 PM »
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Confusion x2 and HSR x 1-3 and good game. Your original post said what you did not want the deck to be like, but I never saw you say what you actually wanted to accomplish with the deck. What is your goal for this deck? Why are you making it? It can't be for play testing purposes as this is a very unconventional deck. I'm asking this because you got some great advice, and the build you created was, well not the same as the advice given, and I want to know what you are trying to get out of this deck, so I can give advice accordingly.
Why do you not want to use Sons of Jacob?
Have you tried building off of Noah's Ark?
Your newest build uses green yet you didn't include Creation of this World.
Blue can be very fast, it can search for the hero's needed, or all hero's, bring out certain components of your deck, and even has the ability to draw as much as needed, yet I do not see any of that in your build. In today's game of type 2, speed and set up is crucial. You can bet on your opponent having their strategy, and getting to their strategy/setting up their strategy within the first few turns. Drawing coupled with searching is used in all top decks, at least offensively, if not partially done defensively, so I feel like in order to be competitive you either shut down searching, and you draw, or vice versa. That or you do what most do, you as well draw and search. This offense looks almost stagnant as it has no way to get those GE's you put on the bottom of your deck, best you can do is search for nothing with one of your hero's and shuffle your deck.
Faith of Noah and The Flood are mass kill cards and you could protect your own if you build correctly, or play it at the right time.
I would also try to encourage that searching more and add another Faith of Abraham then subtract an Abraham from your hero's. I also see 6 Battle winner's on your offense, unless you include the DaE's, all of which are negateable, even you said Two Bears is negated 9 out of 10 times, so recurring that doesn't necessarily help, but recurring a mass kill card (Faith of Noah), you can play that first, knowing they will negate if they can, then you play Two Bears. If they don't negate FoN, then that hurts them all the more. Abraham gets to play it first as well, and The Flood if you add that. If you are going to have prophets, Ob's Cave never hurts.
I personally like Faith of Enoch as you can place it on larger cloud hero's for a kamikaze and puts pressure on them. It also is a way to keep a hero as a target, instead of a different one. I really like Faith Among Corruption. I would cut Golgotha x2 and add a Faith Among Corruption, then sub one Abe's kid for a Faith Among. I personally feel like if you utilize the right hero's then the angels in your deck are not needed. Also, The Guardian is right, a Captain band is still hard to beat.  8)
edit: I just saw you have no Throne of Grace!?!?!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 04:00:25 PM by Mr.Hiatus »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2016, 04:10:29 PM »
+1
Knowing tripleplay03, I am almost certain that there is more to this deck than he's letting on (likely something crazy with the defense), and he just wanted help brainstorming some different offense options.  8)
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Offline Josh

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2016, 06:55:18 PM »
+1
Knowing tripleplay03, I am almost certain that there is more to this deck than he's letting on (likely something crazy with the defense), and he just wanted help brainstorming some different offense options.  8)

I am 99.9% sure that this is correct.  The OP should have had a disclosure along the lines of "Please note that this is a combo deck, and therefore my hands are tied on defense, as well as partially on offense.  Do not be offended if I ignore sound and well-reasoned advice." 

;)
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Offline Noah

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2016, 10:45:55 PM »
+2
Knowing tripleplay03, I am almost certain that there is more to this deck than he's letting on (likely something crazy with the defense), and he just wanted help brainstorming some different offense options.  8)

I am 99.9% sure that this is correct.  The OP should have had a disclosure along the lines of "Please note that this is a combo deck, and therefore my hands are tied on defense, as well as partially on offense.  Do not be offended if I ignore sound and well-reasoned advice." 

;)

Come on, you know that with at least 110% certainty. ;) I literally PM'ed you the combo. ::)

Both jmhartz and The Guardian are spot on.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by not taking their advice. I just thought that there might be a simple "all you need is X, Y, and Z to win . . ." type response for blue Genesis, and apparently I was wrong.

For me, it's more satisfying to use unexpected or undervalued cards in different ways to get souls and blocks than it is to just push out a massive banding chain or a protected from everything hero, but recently I've come to realize that if I also want to be competitive I'll have to adopt main stream battle tactics at some point.

In a game like this the element of surprise can be a big advantage. In light of what I've already said, however, there are only two cards I have not mentioned by name that are part of the combo. Based on what I've said has to be in the deck, and how simple the combo is, I expect someone to figure it out sooner or later. I'll lay out what I've said so far so everybody except jmhartz (because he already knows what they are) can guess what the final two cards are. Then there's really no point in keeping the rest of the deck a secret, so I'll feel better about disclosing the whole list and having a more open discussion.

I thought about just spoiling it, but this sounds like more fun. ;)

The hints up to this point are that the deck must have,
Abraham (He's not really part of the "combo", but he makes the band bigger and searches for other parts)
Angel at Shur (For Issac's trigger)
Isaac (Because his ability is awesome . . .)
A Crimson card (An EE)
An O.T. Artifact (That works in conjunction with the EE)

I've always had a hard time making T-2 decks. I absolutely love the game play however. The Guardian's Land of Redemption posts have gone a long way to help make me a better T-2 deck builder, but sometimes it's hard to make meaningful deck choices when you have so many options for viable decks and so many counters and counters to counters.

The perfectionist in me wants to have the deck building part down to a science because it is the one variable that is truly 100% in my control, so I am free to focus more on practicing to execute the deck free of mistakes. But I've come to realize that deck building is more of an art then an exact science and something I still need to learn how to do well. That's why I enjoy having discussions about deck building. Its not so much the specific cards I'm interested in, but the underlying philosophies and value decisions every player makes in deciding which cards make the cut, and which don't.

Thanks for educating me. :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:30:23 PM by tripleplayNo3 »
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kariusvega

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2016, 11:12:41 PM »
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yeah man i definitely feel you on deck building being an art. everyone's own unique sensibilities go into the forms they ultimately take. that's why i really admire the champions deck choices and how unique they all are.

Offline Noah

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2016, 07:33:26 PM »
+1
Update! The Guardian is officially the first person to figure out the missing links to the combo! I'll go a bit longer without spoiling it in case others still want to guess, but then I'll spoil it so we can get on with, hopefully, a more tailored and all inclusive deck building discussion. ;)

Also, I'm starting to think Abraham + Sarah + Rachel + Jacob + Captain might be pretty strong. ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:36:45 PM by tripleplayNo3 »
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Offline Josh

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2016, 08:30:28 AM »
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Update! The Guardian is officially the first person to figure out the missing links to the combo! I'll go a bit longer without spoiling it in case others still want to guess, but then I'll spoil it so we can get on with, hopefully, a more tailored and all inclusive deck building discussion. ;)

Also, I'm starting to think Abraham + Sarah + Rachel + Jacob + Captain might be pretty strong. ;)

If Rachel + Jacob + Captain can't get it done, I doubt the addition of Abraham will help much  ;)
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Offline Noah

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2016, 03:31:46 PM »
+3
If Rachel + Jacob + Captain can't get it done, I doubt the addition of Abraham will help much  ;)

Well, Abraham does negate HHI (If played from hand), that new lost soul that negates banding, Unholy Writ, and probably something else that could effect the Rachel/Jacob/Captain band.

For those of you still wondering what the combo is, here it is. The Guardian did such a good job of explaining it, however, I'll just quote what he said. ;)

Darius' Decree is the Artifact. Christian Suing Another is the Crimson EE.

You block with whatever Crimson dude you have on hand. Coliseum ensures all their battle winners are interruptable (for the most part). They play something. You use CSA to force their Hero to fight Abraham banded to Isaac who topdecks CSA to be drawn and used again next turn. They can't play anything in the side battle because of Decree and they probably don't have enough #s to overcome the Abraham/Isaac band.

So, now that everything is on the table, feel free to think up interesting ways to build around and/or utilize these cards in a Genesis/Crimson build. Also, this isn't limited to T-2 either. Be creative. :)
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Genesis in Type-2 (Not Sons of Jacob)?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2016, 08:26:43 PM »
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Far from being limited to T2, its simple a long string of amazing plays that you can do with the TopDeck.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

 


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