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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Deck Concepts => Topic started by: hi123 on March 18, 2011, 06:23:27 PM

Title: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: hi123 on March 18, 2011, 06:23:27 PM
A few people in my playgroup are using( and by using, I mean copying) some National winning decks. ( such as the 2010 one, and TealTomb) So, I was wondering what everyone thinks about other people using someones decks? I, for one, do not think decks should be copied

Spoiler (hover to show)





PRO'S 'N CON'S of copying decks:


Pros:                                                               Cons:

-Experience                                                      - Seeing the same deck over and over



- More Pro's/Con's?

-Thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: CJSports on March 18, 2011, 06:28:12 PM
I think it is boring and useless to copy a hole entire deck but if I see a nice little combo I hadn't thought of I might use it in future decks. Example: I found Chennaniah to King David against MKC and I have used it in many decks.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: hi123 on March 18, 2011, 06:33:36 PM
I think it is boring and useless to copy a hole entire deck but if I see a nice little combo I hadn't thought of I might use it in future decks. Example: I found Chennaniah to King David against MKC and I have used it in many decks.
Ya, I agree that it is boring. I also agree, that if you do find a combo, you should be able to use that. It is good though to play agqainst winning decks to gain experience.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Red on March 18, 2011, 08:30:53 PM
Net-decking isn't bad for a game. It produces better players. Once they build their own deck of course.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: hi123 on March 18, 2011, 08:33:00 PM
Net-decking isn't bad for a game. It produces better players.
I also agree with that statement. But, what if someone is playing with a winning nats deck, and is already a really good player? I am asuming that you are saying that it is good for newer players to be playing with these decks?
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Isildur on March 18, 2011, 10:38:36 PM
Half of the fun in Redemption for me is making decks so it always makes me sad when I have to play the same carbon copy nats winning deck 4 out of the 5 games at a tourney.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Red on March 19, 2011, 12:05:17 AM
That is too many netdeckers. Now 1-3 is fine but 4-5? Overdoing it.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on March 19, 2011, 12:23:27 AM
I don't mind seeing people do that but I don't like carbon copies. Make adjustments according to torr playing style...one deck won't work for everybody
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 19, 2011, 03:08:56 AM
I've got my own decks, but I've been toying with the idea of building the past decade's worth of Nats winning decks for newer players to learn against.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Master KChief on March 19, 2011, 03:24:46 AM
i agree, making net decks of the past winning decks is great for a new playgroup to experience and get to know the strongest and tournament-calibur cards in the game.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Noah on March 19, 2011, 09:24:52 AM
And for if your new and want fresh ideas to try.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 03:04:07 AM
I've got my own decks, but I've been toying with the idea of building the past decade's worth of Nats winning decks for newer players to learn against.
Any deck that won pre-Priests is awful.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: The Guardian on March 20, 2011, 03:11:40 AM
I've got my own decks, but I've been toying with the idea of building the past decade's worth of Nats winning decks for newer players to learn against.
Any deck that won pre-Priests is awful...

...because it means that FBTN and FBTB is the main strategy of said deck...  :P
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 04:37:30 AM
I know FbtNB is still viable, but think about how viable it would be with only Kings-era cards in today's meta.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: The Guardian on March 20, 2011, 11:29:30 AM
I know FbtNB is still viable, but think about how viable it would be with only Kings-era cards in today's meta.

Oh I completely agree that FBTN/FBtNB can still work...having played 6 rounds of T2 MP the past few weekends, I can tell you that TSA and Jacob/Captain are still a force. However, as the main strategy of a deck, (even in an ANB reset deck), it's not good enough to win consistently at the higher level tournaments.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 20, 2011, 11:32:01 AM
I've got my own decks, but I've been toying with the idea of building the past decade's worth of Nats winning decks for newer players to learn against.
Any deck that won pre-Priests is awful.
I'm missing your point.  I think it would be cool for players to see and learn about what used to be the meta.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Minister Polarius on March 20, 2011, 11:36:24 AM
Pre-Priests ever since Warriors, the meta was "use all of the FbtN characters and multicolor Enhancements."
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: The Guardian on March 20, 2011, 03:47:39 PM
Pre-Priests ever since Warriors, the meta was "use all of the FbtN characters and multicolor Enhancements."

Plus a few artifact discarders for Holy of Holies and Asherah Pole.  :P
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 20, 2011, 04:46:13 PM
Pre-Priests ever since Warriors, the meta was "use all of the FbtN characters and multicolor Enhancements."
I know this, I've read some interesting dissertations on the history of Redemption meta.  I think it'd be cool to have old decks around to see how Redemption has evolved.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: crustpope on March 20, 2011, 05:12:24 PM
Pre-Priests ever since Warriors, the meta was "use all of the FbtN characters and multicolor Enhancements."
I know this, I've read some interesting dissertations on the history of Redemption meta.  I think it'd be cool to have old decks around to see how Redemption has evolved.

I have thought about doing the same thing.

About using other peoples decks I dont have a problem with it.  Using an old deck is great for learning combos and such but it is problematic in that old decks already have counters and people know what is coming.  It is much better to take an old deck and to put your own spin on it so that you know it will be effective but people will not know exaclty what is coming.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: melike1hit on March 22, 2011, 12:28:17 AM
I think the worst player with the best deck will not be any good unless he has used it before, get to know your cards and u will do better than someone who doesnt,
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: uthminister [BR] on March 22, 2011, 12:12:07 PM
I couldn't agree more. I have tried to play someone else's deck and failed miserably because I simply did not have the experience playing with it. Also, what is the fun in using a proven deck even if you win? There is no creativity in that and I simply do not like it. Having said that, most people who know me realize that I don't care about winning nearly as much as I care about putting together interesting decks (thematically). I don't have a problem if someone else does thought because in reality there are not that many different decks that can be competitive.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Townsend on March 22, 2011, 12:14:28 PM
I couldn't agree more. I have tried to play someone else's deck and failed miserably because I simply did not have the experience playing with it. Also, what is the fun in using a proven deck even if you win? There is no creativity in that and I simply do not like it. Having said that, most people who know me realize that I don't care about winning nearly as much as I care about putting together interesting decks (thematically). I don't have a problem if someone else does thought because in reality there are not that many different decks that can be competitive.
I think you can have more creativity this year than you can in passed years, but I do agree with what you are saying...
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 22, 2011, 01:01:25 PM
I don't mind net decking at all. Copying Gabe's 2006(?) nats winning deck is what really convinced me to become competitive at the higher level tournaments (aka: pick up speed until disciples).
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: hi123 on March 22, 2011, 05:26:32 PM
I don't mind net decking at all. Copying Gabe's 2006(?) nats winning deck is what really convinced me to become competitive at the higher level tournaments (aka: pick up speed until disciples).
I guess that is one PRO of copying decks, gaining experience. I do agree with that. But I still think , after copying your deck and gaining expeirence branch out to other decks!
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on March 22, 2011, 05:45:59 PM
It's fine. Honestly, you can't really tell a person not to copy a deck. I've copied a few decks (although usually I scrap them later). The first deck I really copied was Soul Saver's Velocity, which was mainly just because I didn't see how speed would work. Then I tried Gabe's A-Bomb deck, which was before TexP. I had no idea what an A-Bomb deck would look like. Obviously it's changed a bit, but it gave me a general idea of what to go for, and was actually really fun. I play decks I build myself way better, for no apparent reason, so I prefer to build my own, but there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah, it can be annoying playing people who copy decks, but really, everybody copies the themes that have been put down by Cactus. I'm willing to bet most Disciples decks have over 50% the same cards in them. Or speed, or FbtN, etc.

On that note, we've sadly somewhat lost creativity within some brigades, except for a few cards here and there. Decks that win nationals are the ones that are unexpected (Blue/Gray wasn't heard of back in 2008, Teal/Tomb was only known through Gabe (although TGT was often used that year, few mixed it with Teal), and Teal/Green was completely off the meta).
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on March 22, 2011, 06:09:02 PM
I used Teal/Green late 2008/first half of 2009 >:c
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on March 22, 2011, 07:04:41 PM
This is a year-by-year basis. Each new set that comes out resets things.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on March 22, 2011, 07:40:34 PM
I'm pretty bad at this game, So I pretty much have to copy decks to be competitive ;)
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on March 22, 2011, 09:21:39 PM
Since when does "5x ANB in T2 Multi" qualify as "copying decks"?
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on March 22, 2011, 09:54:47 PM
Since MJB first did it as a joke back when ANB first came out.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: RTSmaniac on March 23, 2011, 01:00:04 AM
Quote
I couldn't agree more. I have tried to play someone else's deck and failed miserably because I simply did not have the experience playing with it.

I remember one NATS someone handed me a deck to play with and I had no idea how to win. Josh Kopp and Heroless. :)
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: hi123 on March 24, 2011, 08:47:22 PM
Quote
I couldn't agree more. I have tried to play someone else's deck and failed miserably because I simply did not have the experience playing with it.

I remember one NATS someone handed me a deck to play with and I had no idea how to win. Josh Kopp and Heroless. :)
- So we do know one thing:

Never use a deck when you have no idea what it is!  ::)
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: SomeKittens on March 25, 2011, 01:24:30 AM
No, I think the lesson is "Never use Josh's decks"
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: uthminister [BR] on March 25, 2011, 12:14:27 PM
The deck I played wasn't Josh's deck but it was a high ranking player...cough...cough...Gabe...cough...cough.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: EmJayBee83 on March 27, 2011, 12:22:17 PM
Since MJB first did it as a joke back when ANB first came out.
And then when MJB took second at Nationals with it.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: NathanW on May 31, 2011, 09:20:34 PM
Why would national winners post their decks in the first place, thay probley don't need advice.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: The M on May 31, 2011, 09:27:44 PM
Why would national winners post their decks in the first place, thay probley don't need advice.
:rollin: o_O

They post them to share with others, not get tips.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Gabe on June 01, 2011, 12:03:54 AM
Why would national winners post their decks in the first place, thay probley don't need advice.

After Nationals I post any deck I use that makes the top three. I do it then for a few reasons.

- To help new players. When I started I learned the game rather quickly thanks to prior National winners sharing their deck through Wildcard (http://www.freewebs.com/redemptionne/). It helps new and existing players to improve by looking at what has worked well and trying it for themselves.

- To help existing players. Learning what works well for other people can help you improve your deck if you use a similar strategy. Testing against a deck that did well at a high level tournament can help you improve your existing deck by revealing some of it's weaknesses.

- Because I feel like Redemption suffers from a lack of tournament coverage. Lots of tournaments come and go and we know nothing about what worked and what didn't. Some other games require exact deck lists from all players and publish them after a large event. That's a lot of extra work for players, hosts and Cactus so I'm not saying Redemption needs to implement that system. I do like the idea of decks that place being made public after a season ends.

- New sets release counters and change the offenses and defenses people are playing. That means that an exact copy of a winning deck is usually less effective in the next tournament season. I'll usually play the deck again in some form but it won't be what I take to a big tournament.

- I wait until after Nationals because I prefer to have as little information as possible available about my decks going into a big event. The element of surprise has a lot of value.

There might be more reasons but those are the first that come to mind.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on June 01, 2011, 12:07:11 AM
- Because I feel like Redemption suffers from a lack of tournament coverage. Lots of tournaments come and go and we know nothing about what worked and what didn't. Some other games require exact deck lists from all players and publish them after a large event. That's a lot of extra work for players, hosts and Cactus so I'm not saying Redemption needs to implement that system. I do like the idea of decks that place being made public after a season ends.

I actually thinkg that'd be really cool.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Gabe on June 01, 2011, 12:12:38 AM
It might be realistic for States, Regionals and Nationals. I think it would be asking too much for Local and Districts. But most National winners are willing to share their deck already.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on June 01, 2011, 12:24:52 AM
It might be realistic for States, Regionals and Nationals. I think it would be asking too much for Local and Districts. But most National winners are willing to share their deck already.

I think it'd be worth testing for Nationals in a smaller category - like one of the Type 2s.
Title: Re: POLL: What do you think about using other peoples winning decks?
Post by: soul seeker on June 01, 2011, 10:55:17 AM
- Because I feel like Redemption suffers from a lack of tournament coverage. Lots of tournaments come and go and we know nothing about what worked and what didn't. Some other games require exact deck lists from all players and publish them after a large event. That's a lot of extra work for players, hosts and Cactus so I'm not saying Redemption needs to implement that system. I do like the idea of decks that place being made public after a season ends.

I actually thinkg that'd be really cool.
I agree and disagree with this.  I agree if it is after Nats to share a deck list, but it is highly probable that the deck people use to win Regionals will be the one they play at Nats.  So I'm not a fan of sharing deck lists after Regionals because like Gabe said, "the element of surprise has a lot of value."  Plus, there are players who will "tech" against you if you are having a lot of success with a particular deck.
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