Author Topic: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?  (Read 5681 times)

Offline Wings of Music

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Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« on: February 13, 2012, 02:56:03 AM »
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I've been experimenting with Teal/Green since I came into the game, for some reason it has always enthralled me.  This year, perhaps more than ever it has the potential to be dominating.  I feel that what Teal/Green lacks are powerful characters, outside of Aaron/Moses, and Phineas there isn't a whole lot to be had compared to Sam and Genesis.  They make up for this with access to some of the most powerful enhancements in the game, and HT to drop them preblock on the HT compatible teal/green heroes.  With Hur+Gifts and the feasts Teal/green also has great tools for speed. 

So IMHO a good Teal/Green deck needs to meet the following Criteria.

1: Compensate for weaker characters

2: Capitalize on HT

3: Include Hur+Gifts, the feasts, and a quick defense. 

I've seen a lot of different ways to run Teal/Green some capitalize on different strengths and minimize different weaknesses the following is my opinion on these different decks. 

Deck #1 Balanced Speed:  http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/type-1-deck-advice/prophetsmagicians-29181/ The basic premise of this deck is to use Hur+Gifts/Set Asides in a 50 cards deck to blow through to HT + Spiritual Warfare, Aaron/Moses, and Phineas + Zeal.  It also has a fast defense with pretty good stopping power.  In a Deck like this the main problem is the offense, it just not as powerful as it could be.  It solves the problem in criterion 1 by causing a new one, a lack of characters, it's hard to make rescues with less than 10 heroes.  On criterion 2 a balanced deck like this can sometimes be hit or miss, but should do alright.  A balanced speed deck meets the 3rd criterion really well, with feasts, Hur+Gifts, and a fast defense.

Deck #2 Offensive Heavy Speed: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/type-1-deck-advice/prophet-speed-deck/ Again the basic premise is to blow through the deck to get to HT playfirst fun.  The problem is that a bad draw could kill this deck, if Hur+Gifts does not come the deck is done for.  With such a small defense there aren't going to be enough blocks.  In an offensive heavy deck the relative weakness of Teal/Green hero SAs really shows, there isn't a whole lot to compensate.  On Criterion 2 it definitely capitalizes on HT, probably better than any other deck becasue of house fast HT comes out.  On 3 however the deck actually falls just short of peak performance.  Because the defense is so small it fails to do much drawing to help the offense, Sabbath Breaker and Ammy Slave are only a +4, a larger defense could draw more and block more. 

Deck #3 Defensive Heavy: I haven't actually seen a deck like this, but I imagine it would be pretty interesting.  It would feature around 5 heroes (the three teal/greens, Moses, and Hur) and Assyrians, Babs, or Kings of Israel on the defense.  A deck like this may not meet criterion 1, since the defense would leave little room to compensate for weaknesses.  It would meet criterion 2 but would lack back up if HT gets nuked.  Criterion 3 would probably be met as far a Hur/Gifts, and the Defense go, but would lack heroes to drop feasts on.

Deck #4 Balance 56: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/type-1-deck-advice/teal-greenbabs/ http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/type-1-deck-advice/tealgreen-ht-z-templekings-of-israel/ This type of Deck would be able to meet the above mentioned criteria as it has the card slots to make it happen, but it comes at the price of six extra cards and some missing doms.  It meets 1 by using Z temple to compensate for lack of character abilities via protection.  2. It Has the Characters and enhancements to capitalize on HT with back up to boot.  3. Can fit Feasts, Hur+Gifts, and a fast defense, but can't capitalize on these because it's 56 cards.

To recap. 

#1: Is probably the most efficient as far a drawing goes, and has good stopping power,  but lacks offensive punch of other decks.

#2: Maintains the speed of option #1 and makes up for #1's lack of offense but sacrifices the defense, and proportionally does not improve the offense that much.  Ultimately Sam does what this deck does but better.

#3: Meets most of the above mentioned criteria but does not have enough heroes to be a top deck.

#4: Meets all the criteria but at the cost of extra slots and possibly a few lost doms.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:46:25 PM by Wings of Music »
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 03:06:30 AM »
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Darn word count cut me off (or maybe I just talk too much ::))

Anyway, what do you guys think of my analysis?  Did I miss anything?  Am I completely off?  Let discussion begin!

Blessings,

Wings
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 09:18:41 AM »
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I've been experimenting with Teal/Green since I came into the game, for some reason it has always enthralled me.  This year, perhaps more than ever it has the potential to be dominating.  I feel that what Teal/Green lacks are powerful characters, outside of Aaron/Moses, and Phineas there isn't a whole lot to be had compared to Sam and Genesis. 
I can see where you're coming from, Teal/green has no Sam, but they have a several really underrated heroes.

Ahimaaz gets initiative, protected from charms & writ, and spies on opponent's hand
Abiathar: Protected from Plot
Hosea: This guy's a beast. SO annoying
Cherubim: Can band to either a Priest or a Prophet and put CM or Mayhem under their deck
Joshua the high Priest: Makes Zeal and any other battle winner CBN, and works great with Z temple
Priests of Christ: Access to the NT only, can fetch a dom, & not bad for initiative

But a lot of it depends on the player's style. Many players will go offensive heavy, but others prefer more defense. A large offense with speedy defense is probably the best way to go to keep up with Sam & Genesis.
I too think that Teal/Green has a lot of potential if built and played right.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 09:56:04 AM »
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I think you're overestimating the power of Hidden Treasures. In general, it's good to play Search, Spiritual Warfare, and ANB pre-block, and that's about it. If you know that your opponent doesn't have any evil characters in hand, Two Bears is also perfectly fine. The main problem that teal/green runs into is that it gets overshadowed by better offenses in large offenses. A modest teal/green deck (with Babylonians/Magicians on defense) might be the best balanced deck in the game, so it's my belief that focusing on a smaller offense and giving the defense a bit more is the best way to go about it.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 10:13:14 AM »
+4
That's a very in depth analysis, and I like that you included links to several different variations of this kind of deck.  This is exactly the kind of post that I'd like to see more of here because I think it would be really helpful for new players looking for deck options.

Offline Mr.Hiatus

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 10:45:22 AM »
+5
If he included the use of U&T he would not be overrating HT, but since there is no mention of one of the best support artifacts in the game, then he is overrating HT.  ;)
Use U&T before that HT and it is as good as you say. Teal/Green is great. You can go power hero's, Z-Temple, Prophets, mix the three, doesn't matter, teal/green flows like Tom Brady's hair.

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 10:54:34 AM »
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That's a very in depth analysis, and I like that you included links to several different variations of this kind of deck.  This is exactly the kind of post that I'd like to see more of here because I think it would be really helpful for new players looking for deck options.

Thanks for the complements Prof Underwood!

I think you're overestimating the power of Hidden Treasures. In general, it's good to play Search, Spiritual Warfare, and ANB pre-block, and that's about it. If you know that your opponent doesn't have any evil characters in hand, Two Bears is also perfectly fine.

Actually there is a lot more that HT can use, Holy unto the Lord is practically the equivalent of dropping AoCp preblock except that you have to discard some evil cards.  T&S is an excellent preblock play that deals with Nazzy or CP and can even deal with the defense the opponent has in territory.  And if the new CBP means CBP ruling goes through, Ezra's journey also becomes an excellent drop because it allows for a massive FBTN band if you bring in moses.  Oh and there's Burning incense too.

And to reverberate Mr. Hiatus, U&T compounds everything Teal/green does, and not because it makes teal/green better but becasue it makes the player perform better.


I can see where you're coming from, Teal/green has no Sam, but they have a several really underrated heroes.

Ahimaaz gets initiative, protected from charms & writ, and spies on opponent's hand Agreed he's underrated.
Abiathar: Protected from Plot But not from Writ
Hosea: This guy's a beast. SO annoying Annoying but not as powerful as his Sam or Genesis counterparts
Cherubim: Can band to either a Priest or a Prophet and put CM or Mayhem under their deck Sometimes useful but not Ismiah or Jacob, who would probably be his closest counterparts
Joshua the high Priest: Makes Zeal and any other battle winner CBN, and works great with Z temple Agreed But Ben, or Joseph trounce him
Priests of Christ: Access to the NT only, can fetch a dom, & not bad for initiative Same as above
 
Yes Josh and Ahimaz are good, and both get better with cov w/Phineas up but the thing is they still don't have the raw power of Sam  or Genesis.

Thanks for the responses guys, glad I'm to see my thread is appreciated!



« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 12:37:50 PM by Wings of Music »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 10:58:16 AM »
+1
I've considered splashing Judges into a Teal/Green offense before. It would help speed, and give access to more battle winners. Here it is:

Cards in deck: 27

Artifacts: 3
   Chariot of Fire
   Gifts of the Magi
   Hidden Treasures
Pretty standard. HT for preblock stuff and CoF just in case I get wrath'd. Gifts for hur

Multi-Color Heroes: 7
   Aaron (Green/Teal)
   Ahimaaz (Teal)
   Jeremiah (Green/Teal)
   Joshua the High Priest (Teal)
   Phinehas, son of Eleazar (Teal)
   Samuel (Gold/Green)
   Zechariah (green/teal)
Pretty standard line up. Phin for a cbn zeal and Ahimaaz for protection from capture & initiative

Silver Heroes: 2
   Seraph
   The Angel Under the Oak
Seraph for CBNB & Oak for drawing & super Gid

Gold Heroes: 2
   Gideon
   Moses
Gideon for obvious reasons and Moses goes with Aaron

Green Heroes: 3
   David
   Hosea
   Hur
David for a +2 off sam & hur draws off gifts

And the rest is pretty standard

Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 7
   Eli's Sound Advice (Teal/Gold)
   Feast of Trumpets
   First Fruits
   Holy unto the Lord (Teal)
   Pentecost
   Spiritual Warfare (Green/Silver)
   Zeal for the Lord (Teal)

Gold Hero Enhancements: 2
   Ehud's Dagger
   Samuel's Edict

Green Hero Enhancements: 2
   Provisions
   Two Bears

throw in search or Striking Herod if you like. This is what I'd try for teal/green.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 12:22:53 PM by Red Wing »
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 12:33:47 PM »
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Hmmm this might actually work.

It fulfills Criterion #1 by throwing in the angels and Sam.  It fulfills #2 Relatively well.  And it meets #3 quite well as Angel under the oak, Sam, and Eli's sound advice add an extra boost. 

My main problem is that it deviates from 'Teal/Green' by including 3 Gold characters and 2 Silver ones, not too much deviation as they are really just splashed in there but it certainly is less Teal/Green than the examples in my original post. 

That being said I think it looks like strong offense I would like to see how it would preform at a tournament.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 01:20:02 PM »
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you'll obviously have to go without some things to run Judges in addition to Teal/Green. But I do believe the benefits of the Gold outweigh the other options that Teal/Green has. With the outline I proposed, the basic Teal/Green elements remain the same (i.e Hur+Gifts, Phineas, Zeal, ect). With the Judges you'll get a potential +2 off Sam with David and if you get him early enough, a +2-8 drawing of Angel under the Oak. Plus, more speed with Eli's advice and another CBN battle winner (Edict). You could also use Jair for more drawing.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 01:22:28 PM by Red Wing »
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 01:24:10 PM »
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Too true, I think that the offense does gain a lot of advantages this way.  The one downside I see is not having anything beyond the basic standalone defense.  Not that stand-alones are a bad defense as they are the most efficient one in the game, I just prefer to have more stopping power. 

EDIT: I just realized that this brings up another point:  Isn't part of what makes teal/green good the fact that it can actually work in a deck with a real defense? (See Chronic's defense under deck archetype #1)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 03:02:16 PM by Wings of Music »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 03:30:55 PM »
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Too true, I think that the offense does gain a lot of advantages this way.  The one downside I see is not having anything beyond the basic standalone defense.  Not that stand-alones are a bad defense as they are the most efficient one in the game, I just prefer to have more stopping power. 

I left room for ≈15 or so cards for the defense. I know that's not a lot but more than some decks.

EDIT: I just realized that this brings up another point:  Isn't part of what makes teal/green good the fact that it can actually work in a deck with a real defense? (See Chronic's defense under deck archetype #1)
Not really, but I guess Teal/Green does allow for more room than say, a Sam offense. I wouldn't even say Chronic's deck had a "Real Defense." It was just a slightly larger standalone with a few more Magicians.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 04:46:11 PM »
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The problem I have with Teal/Green is that most of its power comes from Enhancements, whereas Gardenciples and Sam decks derive most of their power from Heroes. Even Genesis is less Enhancement-centric than Teal/Green, as many of their enhancements serve to get our more Heroes. This causes it to be less streamlined than "S" offenses, and is a bit of a waste considering top decks often use meta-defenses. Teal/Green has the most pure battle-winning power of all offenses, but most defenses only stall once you've killed KoT.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 04:52:02 PM »
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+1 Which is why I think the best Teal/Green Decks are the ones that compensate for lackluster in characters while still maintaining the proper emphasis on enhancements.


I left room for ≈15 or so cards for the defense. I know that's not a lot but more than some decks.

If you're running a 56 card deck I guess you're right, I was assuming a fifty carder. 27 (your offense) + 11 doms + 8 Souls (assuming there's a hopper) = 46 cards.  That still only leaves 10 cards for the defense...

EDIT: I just realized that this brings up another point:  Isn't part of what makes teal/green good the fact that it can actually work in a deck with a real defense? (See Chronic's defense under deck archetype #1)

Not really, but I guess Teal/Green does allow for more room than say, a Sam offense. I wouldn't even say Chronic's deck had a "Real Defense." It was just a slightly larger standalone with a few more Magicians.

Still it's considerably larger than a lot of defenses out there, particularly compared the decks smaller defense.

Secondly we need to clarify 'real defense.' When I say real defense I mean a defense that goes beyond simple stand alone characters to include support and enhancements (I guess that Chronic's defense does fall a little short of this def...)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 02:10:06 AM by Wings of Music »
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 09:16:04 PM »
+1
Quote
Which is why I think the best Teal/Green Decks are the ones that compensate for lackluster in characters while still maintaining the proper emphasis on enhancements.

I think Pol's point was that there's a reason most of the top offenses have more emphasis on characters rather than enhancements. The best teal/green decks - in my opinion - focus on characters as much as any other top deck does. Aaron/Moses, Isaiah and friends, Phinehas, Ezekiel, etc. Teal by itself has some of the best enhancements in the game, but it doesn't really have the characters to back it up. Green has characters, but not many solid enhancements. The main problem is that, despite the synergy they both have, you have to devote a ridiculous amount of cards to get the best of both worlds, and in the meantime, it isn't fast enough to compete with Sam, Genesis, or Gardensciples on a card-by-card basis, unless you get Gifts of the Magi out early and pray they don't DoN or CA it early on. I experimented with Green/Teal a lot about two months ago and couldn't ever get anywhere with it, because when it came right down to it, other offenses were simply better, because green/teal was too slow. I do, however, support the making of green/teal decks. It's my belief that the best ones are somewhere around 20-25 cards on offense including support cards, with an emphasis on Tabernacle Priests and Ezekiel, with a Babylonian/Magician defense.

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 12:42:50 AM »
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Out of curiosity what have you found the drawing ratio of Sam/Teal+green to be?
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 12:48:51 AM »
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That depends. Keep in mind that Sam decks can deck out in three turns, and if they haven't decked out in six, the user either got a bad draw, their opponent got a really good anti-meta draw, or the user got enough out that they didn't need to draw anymore. We're talking about a deck that can easily get seven cards per turn, plus the draw phase, plus two feasts and Mustering for War. The closest green/teal has to that is Hur/Gifts and two feasts. With a perfect draw, a green/teal deck can deck out in 4 or 5 turns, but that's an absolutely perfect draw. Normally, it's going to deck out somewhere around turn eight or nine.

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 12:56:16 AM »
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Really? Becasue I'm currently using a somewhat sub-par Teal/Green deck and it tends to deck out by turn seven.  Partly it's because of the drawing I do on the defensive side of things, still it's no where near as fast as the one I have posted.  Granted I have not taken the above mentioned deck to a tournament yet...  ::)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:59:14 AM by Wings of Music »
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 12:59:20 AM »
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I dunno, maybe I'm underestimating green/teal. Were you doing any feast recursion?

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 01:02:55 AM »
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Only on a few occasions do I actually do that.  I'm pretty good at keeping Hur alive, I often use him 2x per game do you usually only use him once?
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 10:45:35 AM »
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Most of the time I've tried playing teal/green Gifts gets DoN'd before I can use it a second time, so yeah, I usually get it off once.

Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2012, 01:08:08 PM »
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OK that's probably the difference then, I'm careful of when I use gifts so that it stays alive longer. (U&T ftw!) It sometimes means that I don't really start drawing until mid-game (because i have to wait for lampy), but once I get to mid-game I deck out pretty quickly. 
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 09:46:29 AM »
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OK that's probably the difference then, I'm careful of when I use gifts so that it stays alive longer. (U&T ftw!) It sometimes means that I don't really start drawing until mid-game (because i have to wait for lampy), but once I get to mid-game I deck out pretty quickly. 
Maybe a fast defense like Pharisees would help Teal/Green with speed. Here's a Pharisee defense that could be pretty fast.

Fortresses: 1
   High Priest's Palace

Artifacts: 1
   Unholy Writ

Gray Evil Characters: 7
   Emperor Vitellius Draws a lot especially vs a Sam deck
   Hard-Hearted Religious Leaders
   Pharisees
   Pharisees
   Proud Pharisee D2
   Sabbath Breaker D3
   The Entrapping Pharisees

Brown Evil Characters: 1
   Uzzah
Multi-Color ECs: 1
    Scribe Bands & Recurs Balaam's Disobedience infinitely when you deck.

Multi-Color Evil Enhancements: 1
   Tenants Kill the Son (Gray/Black) D1

Gray Evil Enhancements: 4
   Balaam's Disobedience
   Gold Shield
   Pretension D2
   Self-Righteous Prayer
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 09:48:38 AM by Red Wing »
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Offline Wings of Music

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2012, 01:08:52 AM »
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Yeah, that looks pretty good, it seems like it would be fast.  An early Sabaath breaker could really help get Gifts + Temple + Lampy up fast enough to do some real drawing.  It would certainly be worth play-testing.  I'm thinking maybe cut one of the characters. (the extra pharisees maybe?)
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Best Way to Run Teal/Green?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2012, 09:21:59 AM »
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Yeah, that looks pretty good, it seems like it would be fast.  An early Sabaath breaker could really help get Gifts + Temple + Lampy up fast enough to do some real drawing.  It would certainly be worth play-testing.  I'm thinking maybe cut one of the characters. (the extra pharisees maybe?)
Yeah, it is a little big. You could definitely cut x1 Generic Pharisee. Maybe one the enhancements could go too.
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