Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Isaiah-lite = Rank 1
TGT = Rank 2
Judge-based = Rank 3
Teal/Disciples = Rank 4/5



Oh, you were talking about T1 .

S Tier
Sam

A Tier 
GardenDi
Genesis
WaterGarden
Disciples 
FBTNB
Teal/Green

B Tier
Prophets (Silver/Green)
Red
Judges

C Tier
Royalty
Silver

I don't think the issue has anything to do with people rushing through their decks to get to dominants. Son of God and New Jerusalem of course, but for the most part, I think we've evolved well beyond the point where, in the mid-to-late game, anything other than SoG/NJ matters all that much. Between banding, Herod's Temple, and the like, I don't think any doms other than Grapes in some situations and Angel of the Lord in others really had too much of an impact after the first four or five rounds of a game. I may be totally off base here, that's just been my observation. The dominant cap, if implemented by itself, would have actually encouraged me to use more speed. If someone held a gun to my head, I would pick the big four doms, Grapes, Mayhem, and Harvest Time. With that in mind, virtually every deck I build (aside from Genesis decks) utilizes some kind of Temple with Lampstand of the Sanctuary to help protect from Destruction of Nehushtan, Burial, and Falling Away. I think a lot of anti-meta players would expect instances of DoN to go down, and would feel more comfortable putting anti-meta artifacts in their decks. Thus, I would be encouraged to use more speed so that I can win (or otherwise draw the few anti-meta counters I put in my decks) before they get their anti-meta cards set up and used effectively (plus getting LotS out before they draw Falling Away).

The implementation of the SoG/NJ rescue rule changes everything, however. The issue, in my opinion, isn't that people are rushing to their doms, I think the issue now is that soul generation is a serious issue, and people can afford to slow down in favor of defense. I think the entire point of this rule was to raise the number of scenarios where a speed player is sitting decked out, waiting for their opponent to draw souls, while their opponent is walking in because the speed player didn't use much defense. Such a scenario is frightening, and really drives home that speed decks have to adapt to survive. Whereas drawing out in three turns before was a fun experience that almost always won, that's simply not viable anymore, because instead of having to generate three Lost Souls in your opponent's Land of Bondage, you know have to generate (or wait for) five, not all of which can be rescued by Son of God and New Jerusalem. This forces speed decks to do one of a few things: They can take out some power (or speed) to add soul generation like Assyrian Survivor, Gibeonite Delegates, etc. They can take out some power (or speed) for defense. OR they can ignore the problem and hope it goes away.

However, on top of forcing speed decks to reexamine what they're doing, it also makes decks that weren't high-tier due to lack of speed much more viable. Decks like Isaiah, Green/Teal, Water Garden, they're all much, much better because speed doesn't have so much of a grip on the meta anymore. Water Garden especially took a huge leap, and may in fact be the best deck type now, though that's complete conjecture. At this early stage, I don't think anyone can put together an accurate tier list, so I won't even try. Sam is probably still top dog, especially since the way Sam decks are built allows them to remove elements like speed or extra power more easily than other decks to add some soul generation or defense. Gun to my head, I think Sam with an emphasis on Judges/Luke could win Nats this year.

Soul generation is king. Sam now relies on the opponent's draw to win, whereas Watertomb does not. Goliath+withdraw LS, Hormah, and many other soul-hidey strategies will likely replace the meta-defense, and woebetide those who fail to take this new aspect of the game into account.

Que decks just got a lot better! Oh your sog nj clogging your hand? I'll help you clear that out for you with my CBN mist...Umad bro?

I'm against S tier just because it's so hard to determine what deck is really better than the other at this point. The top decks belong in the same tier.

A Tier
WaterGarden (MTM and SWJ are just too good, and the slower deck really won't hurt)
Samuel (either variant)
Gardenciples
Genesis

B Tier
Isaiah
FBTNB
Disciples
Teal/Green
Mono-Gold

C Tier
not worth mentioning.

Only three or four? Don't be hating on WONL Samuel with Blue Splash and WONL Samuel with Gold Splash.

 FBTNB is already represented in some fashion. 

Most Sam decks, (and a lot of Genesis decks) have some form of FBTNB built into them so FBTNB already has a presence there.  FBTNB as a core strat probably gained some ground on Sam but I don't think it gained enough ground to break into the A tier. 

Another issue is the definition of FBTNB, are we talking small FBTN bands like Aaron + Moses or Asahel + Ira?  Or are we talking long strings of characters.  I think the long strings of Characters FBTNB still lacks the power to pass up Sam, Genesis, TGT, or even Teal/Green, mostly because those decks that I mentioned are more diverse than straight up FBTNB decks are.

Yeah, in that case I think FBTNB should stay down in B Tier, as fun as it is, I think other strategies have more advantages than FBTNB does. 

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 19, 2012, 05:16:13 PM

We're talking about yesterday's FBTNB. Abishai+Asahel+Ishmaiah+Heldai+Israelite Archer+TSA. etc.

You mean a Sam deck?

Sam does not include Abishai, Heldai, Israelite Archer, or TSA. Yesterday.

I can't wait until Martin rocks nats with his FBTNB deck. It's on par with all Samuel decks, if not superior.

A lot of Sam decks do use Heldai, and my own Sam deck used IA for a long while before finally getting cut. Last time I checked, "yesterday's" FBTNB decks weren't even capable of using Ishmaiah. I hold steadfastly that the best Sam decks are FBTNB, and the best FBTNB uses Sam to add speed.

Interesting. I agree that FBTNB is super strong with Sam, I just view it more as an FBTNB with a Sam splash (if it has that many FBTNB cards).

And we're talking about yesterday's FBTNB, but today. The retro Kings style using the cool cards like Asahel and Ishmaiah.

I'm so glad that I haven't had to change my deck for 3 years I was going to have to do so, but then we instituted a rule that makes the deck viable again....

I'm so glad that I haven't had to change my deck for 3 years I was going to have to do so, but then we instituted a rule that makes the deck viable again....

Except that deck gets rocked by Super Turtles.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

just saying "yesterday," i rocked with just abishai+adino and their spears,and FBTNB is still tier A

What is this water garden I keep hearing about?  I am unfamiliar with the term.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 19, 2012, 09:44:24 PM

Interesting. I agree that FBTNB is super strong with Sam, I just view it more as an FBTNB with a Sam splash (if it has that many FBTNB cards).

Whoever head of a Sam splash?  If you want to use Sam you need at least a couple David's, Sam, AUTO, and some stuff to do banding with Sam.  This adds up to quite a lot of cards, and turns the offense into a Sam offense becasue of it.  My conclusion, if you go with a Sam splash (one that's any good) you've just turned your deck into a Sam deck.)

This is essentially just a disagreement on definitions. I usually only use 2 cards for Sam to draw off of, but whatever.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 19, 2012, 09:44:24 PM

And we're talking about yesterday's FBTNB, but today. The retro Kings style using the cool cards like Asahel and Ishmaiah.

The thing is this, without Sam FBTNB would barely be viable.  I think that straight up FBTNB of 'the old days' isn't fast enough to hold up to Sam.  Sam with FBTNB is one of the best decks, if not the best deck out there, but without Sam FBTNB loses all strength.  So that's why I advocate keeping straight up FBTNB in the lower tiers.

And again, I disagree, but since I don't have RTS I'll just have to take the hit on this one. The only person really playing FBTNB this year is Martin Miller, so I feel it's a bit misjudged, but we'll let the big tournaments sort that out.

I don't see what benefits true FBTNB has over FBTNB with Sam splash.

Which prior to this season was me and Martin. Martin just needs to come to the Dark Side.

I don't know about more offensive options, but I would definitely agree that it allows for a larger defense.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 20, 2012, 02:46:14 PM

I don't see what benefits true FBTNB has over FBTNB with Sam splash.

Primarily a better defense and more offensive options.

I used a splash of Teal for speed and power last year (and if I recall correctly, Martin as well). You're just exchanging the Teal splash for the Sam splash, which I feel is more consistent since it has so much synergy with the FBTNB to begin with. I also feel its faster than Teal splashed because instead of a +7 with Teal (and strictly set at only 2 cards able to do that), I'm getting more than that with Sam splash with more oppurtunities to plus.

Defense has never been big in FBTNB (as with all Type 1 decks essentially), as the offense is still massively huge. You might have a bit more wiggle room with FBTNB, but not enough to make anything drastically different than how defenses always are in Type 1.

And FBTNB with Sam splash doesn't use some of the pieces traditionally found in pure FBTNB, such as Helez, Maharai, B Serpent, I am Heailng, etc. This also allows for a bigger defense if one so desires...but again, lets be honest, its not like the defense is going to be a full-fledged dedicated defense anyways.

Traditional FBTNB is Tier 2, 1.5 at best. The redefined FBTNB (FBTNB with Sam support) should probably just be lumped in as a Sam variation at Tier 0.