Author Topic: Going to the Doctor: A six month checkup on the Redemption Meta (Read 9041 times)

Alex_Olijar · « **on:** February 13, 2012, 11:25:47 AM »

We are now six months into the reign of 2011: The Set. Most good players have found something that works for him at this point in there year and are beginning to fine tune the decks they have into being Nationals worthy. As a resident analyst, I have taken it upon myself to breakdown the meta (T1 only) a little bit to promote some discussion. Let's start with some quick review of recent events in bullet point style:

Last year, TGT was the most successful deck archetype in Nationals T1 2P. It was also very common in T1 MP.
Disciples, despite a lot of hype, were largely lackluster (when used without TGT complements) compared to TGT.
2011: The Set introduced numerous drawing and searching combos in several previously underused themes (Red, Judges, Silver)
2011: The Set also introduced some potentially strong defensive cards such as Covenant with Death and Tower of Thebez in efforts to curtail speed decks in the meta

The big question in 2011: The Set's meta was obvious from the beginning: Would speed decks, specifically TGT -based speed (due to its dominance in recent years), be less powerful with the introduction of stronger defensive cards and the addition of speedier alternatives in lesser used archetypes to encourage more themed decks?

The short answer: No.

The TL;DR answer:

The meta through six months has largely settled into a few main archetypes. I will break down each individually in no specific order. Each deck listed is typically played in a speed format, with 50-52 cards. The age of Speed is still among us.

1. Samuel decks: The funniest part about Samuel decks is that Samuel is usually only the 3rd best hero in the deck. Sam decks has become a synonym for the new version of the classic "spread offense" - offenses using only 1-4 cards of any one brigade, usually spread out among 4-6 brigades, full of hard to stop combos. In recent years, these decks have really suffered in useability because they have little to offer that can't be replicated by mostly single or dual color speed decks.

The star of the Sam deck is The Angel under the Oak. His ability to draw 2 cards and switch for a judge in any location (except set aside) is incredible. He can search out your Samuel, to increase your deck speed, or switch for your Moses in territory, turning the battle in a FBTN battle where you got to draw two free cards, or grab a Gideon from your discard pile - oh, and he makes Gideon bulletproof from the opponent's cards. Did I mention Oak Angel can't be negated?

Beyond Oak Angel, the biggest asset Sam decks have is the versatility they possess. Samuel himself is a gold green hero. He can band to heroes from Purple, Teal, Green, and Red. This enables the architect of a Sam deck the ability to incorporate any number of combo options. You can add a green prophet emphasis, capitalize on Oak Angel with a Judges emphasis, include a warrior class banding chain for some FBTNB goodness, or add some Teal and focus on protection.

Defensively, a Samuel deck is very challenging to stop. It's difficult to handle the many possibilities that could be in the deck, and almost all Samuel decks draw out quickly and efficiently. The biggest problem with Sam is that Samuel decks are good without Samuel - he is more of a capstone that helps the wheel turn much better and more quickly.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM »

2. Genesis: Genesis decks have taken off in usage since the dawn of the new Joseph, who is arguably the best hero in the game. He is certainly among the main contenders. Genesis decks incorporate the combination power of a Genesis offense with a Genesis Egyptian defense in most cases in order to maximize drawing and searching potential.

The key of any strong Genesis deck usually lies in abuse of Joseph and Zebulun. Joseph himself is able to play 3 enhancements with CBN status, all while protecting Sons of Jacob from discard (including Christian Martyr). When used in conjunction with Rachel, who can switch herself for a Joseph in your deck, and Judah, who can switch himself with a captured or discard Joseph, Joseph becomes extremely hard to stop consistently. Zebulun is also quite a hand full. While traditionally only seen in turtle decks, in a pure Genesis deck, Zebulun can be quite deadly because most Genesis decks are much more character-centric than enhancement-centric, making it significantly easier to reduce hand size and super power Zebulun's ignore ability.

Genesis also possesses a lot of speed, albeit largely unconventionally. Seven Years of Plenty offers a potential for D4 per turn for 7 turns. Dan can draw 2, if your hand size is below the opponents. Zebulun also draws one card, but that's largely to help balance his ability. Genesis' true speed lies in searching. Stone Pillar at Bethel allows you to discard an enhancement (which can easily be recurred from the discard pile by either Asher or Abraham's Descendants) to search your deck for any OT Good Card. Creation of the World can band in any Genesis heroes in your deck. Rachel can search your deck and switch herself for either Jacob or Joseph. Leah can search the deck for any of her children (if Jacob is in play).

Any defensive posture against Genesis must include Nazareth. Turning off searching can be catastrophic to Genesis decks if activated early enough. Covenant with Death is also a good option to turn off Genesis, assuming you don't mind losing your own abilities.

3. Garden Disciples: Everyone's favorite card, The Garden Tomb, is among us again this year, usually in the form of a mixed White/Purple deck featuring the Garden Girls as well as 4-7 Disciples, chiefly Matthew, Peter, John, Phillip, and Bartholomew. There isn't much to say about this deck; it's historically and statistically effective, so who can argue with its heavy usage?

The power of Garden Disciples decks starts and ends with The Garden Tomb, which, if the opponent has a redeemed soul, allows certain characters to ignore all evil brigades that do not have at least two characters in play. If drawn early through the speed of cards like Pentecost, First Fruits, Matthew, or Four Drachma Coin, The Garden Tomb can be deadly, as often the Garden Tomb play will give up a free soul to the opponent in the early game anyway, since Garden Disciples decks rarely utilize any kind of useful defense, favoring a small 5-6 blight in the game featuring Uzzah, King of Tyrus, Gomer, Amalekite's Slave, Sabbath Breaker, and Haman's Plot.

But, the real power of Garden Tomb is the fact that it's a great offense even if you never ignore a character with the Garden Tomb. The Garden Girls can make a huge 28/24 band (that can't be negated if Garden Tomb is in play) potentially backed up by any number of interrupts and negates such as Blessings, He is Risen, or Words of Encouragement. On the Purple side, My Lord and My God or Reach of Desperation provide powerful interrupt options.

Defensively, a good Garden Disciples deck is hard to stop. It's very diverse, has access to all souls in the game, and is very, very quick with both feasts and several other drawing combos. It also has the potential to grab easy early rescues from either TGT or a big band (especially Phil and Bart).

These three decks have been incredibly centralizing on the meta. Obviously, several other deck variants are fairly common (such as Isaiah or Zeke decks), but I don't think anyone can dispute the three decks above are by far the most common and arguably the most powerful.

But, now is where the fun begins. Am I right? Am I wrong? Let me know. Start the discussion. Shape the meta. You can do it.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2012, 02:18:54 PM »

This is pretty much what I've been hearing since Octoberish. The rise of Sam is an interesting prospect, since it allows for (some) creativity with decks, moreso than Di or TGT did. I'd like to see more comment on turtle decks, since I want to see lp in a Tebow jersey.

Bryon · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2012, 02:56:02 PM »

Nice posts, Alex. Thanks for the very thorough and informative breakdowns. This should be great for new players and experienced players alike.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2012, 02:56:59 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 13, 2012, 02:18:54 PM

This is pretty much what I've been hearing since Octoberish. The rise of Sam is an interesting prospect, since it allows for (some) creativity with decks, moreso than Di or TGT did. I'd like to see more comment on turtle decks, since I want to see lp in a Tebow jersey.

I would post about turtles if they were relevant to the meta. /drum sound effect here

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2012, 04:25:10 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM

Zebulun is also quite a hand full.

OK, that was just hilarious

On a more serious note, this is an EXCELLENT breakdown of the current top offenses in the T1-2p meta. I'd be interested in seeing you do a similar breakdown of the current top defenses.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 13, 2012, 02:56:59 PM

I would post about turtles if they were relevant to the meta.

That hurts, but it is unfortunately true. Without a time limit increase at Nats, turtles will never win the big show.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2012, 04:57:47 PM »

There are two things I hate in this world, those who are intolerant of people's playstyles and speed.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:08:30 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 13, 2012, 04:25:10 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Zebulun is also quite a hand full.
OK, that was just hilarious :)

On a more serious note, this is an EXCELLENT breakdown of the current top offenses in the T1-2p meta. I'd be interested in seeing you do a similar breakdown of the current top defenses.

Simple:
KoT - Biggest FBTN, useful for an early block
Gomer - Band to KoT, can get inish for Plot
Uzzah - Autoblock, can get inish for Plot
Am. Slave - +1 to deck, can get inish for Plot (sorta)
Sabbath Breaker - +3, can get inish to be discarded
Plot - Discard three characters, CBN. Should be in every deck ever, even ones that were made before Plot.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:18:43 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 13, 2012, 04:25:10 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 13, 2012, 11:26:58 AM
Zebulun is also quite a hand full.
OK, that was just hilarious

I actually didn't even notice that pun until now.

Quote

On a more serious note, this is an EXCELLENT breakdown of the current top offenses in the T1-2p meta. I'd be interested in seeing you do a similar breakdown of the current top defenses.

The problem with type 1 defenses is that they don't exists/aren't centralizing. I could easily analyze what I would play if I wanted to play defense, but there's really no value in analyzing the defensive meta because it's largely the same as what SKittens posted across the large majority of the meta (largely because of how centralized offenses are towards speed, which is necessary). It's a cycle.

STAMP · « **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2012, 05:33:35 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on February 13, 2012, 05:18:43 PM

It's a cycle.

More like a long-cycle that's approaching an era.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 13, 2012, 02:18:54 PM

The rise of Sam is an interesting prospect, since it allows for (some) creativity with decks, moreso than Di or TGT did.

This rise of Sam is most interesting but is Sam the best offense possible? I hold that TGT is going to take nats again.

1. It's as powerful as Sam

2. People tech against Sam more that they do against TGT

3. IMO Sam decks are a bit tougher to play compared to TGT

What do you guys think? Last year when disciples were the thing, a lot of people thought that they would take nats but they didn't, and I don't think Sam will either. TGT will bring home the big one again.

Red Wing · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2012, 12:37:24 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 14, 2012, 11:57:02 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 13, 2012, 02:18:54 PM
The rise of Sam is an interesting prospect, since it allows for (some) creativity with decks, moreso than Di or TGT did.

This rise of Sam is most interesting but is Sam the best offense possible? I hold that TGT is going to take nats again.

1. It's as powerful as Sam I disagree. TGT is pretty situational, and is much more counterable than Sam.

2. People tech against Sam more that they do against TGT Again, I disagree. I mono color defense, a fort killer or two, a protect fort, and maybe an ignore counter (Golgotha, ect.) pretty much takes care of TGT. How do you tech against the ridiculous number of interrupt win CBN enhancements Sam has?

3. IMO Sam decks are a bit tougher to play compared to TGT

What do you guys think? Last year when disciples were the thing, a lot of people thought that they would take nats but they didn't, and I don't think Sam will either. TGT will bring home the big one again. However, TGT got nothing but counters in the new set. It actually got some new cards in Di. Ok it did get Golgotha too…

Wings of Music · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2012, 12:57:49 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on February 14, 2012, 12:37:24 PM

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 14, 2012, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: SomeKittens on February 13, 2012, 02:18:54 PM
The rise of Sam is an interesting prospect, since it allows for (some) creativity with decks, moreso than Di or TGT did.

This rise of Sam is most interesting but is Sam the best offense possible? I hold that TGT is going to take nats again.

1. It's as powerful as Sam I disagree. TGT is pretty situational, and is much more counterable than Sam. TGT will still often end up with an early walk in before they get their counter up and in games where things come down to the wire, that walk in is often the difference between victory and defeat.

2. People tech against Sam more that they do against TGT Again, I disagree. I mono color defense, a fort killer or two, a protect fort, and maybe an ignore counter (Golgotha, ect.) pretty much takes care of TGT. How do you tech against the ridiculous number of interrupt win CBN enhancements Sam has? By gaining inish against Sam's massive banding chains to drop a CBN battle winner of your own. And as for fort killers, they take up valuable deck space, space that you could use to put in a better stop. As Alex said above, TGT is good without TGT. They have their share of awesome enhancements too, particularly in a GardenDiciples deck that uses AoCp. Additionally Mono-color offenses aren't 'that' popular, mostly because defense in general is not that popular. Also I don't know of any fort outside of ToT and GoJ that protects characters from being set-aside.

3. IMO Sam decks are a bit tougher to play compared to TGT

What do you guys think? Last year when disciples were the thing, a lot of people thought that they would take nats but they didn't, and I don't think Sam will either. TGT will bring home the big one again. However, TGT got nothing but counters in the new set. It actually got some new cards in Di. Ok it did get Golgotha too… Sure TGT got counters but I haven't really seen anyone using them extensively. That really is the basis of my argumentation, people aren't using TGT counters, therefore, what's stopping it from winning nats again?

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** February 14, 2012, 01:04:03 PM »

Quote

By gaining inish against Sam's massive banding chains to drop a CBN battle winner of your own. And as for fort killers, they take up valuable deck space, space that you could use to put in a better stop. As Alex said above, TGT is good without TGT. They have their share of awesome enhancements too, particularly in a GardenDiciples deck that uses AoCp. Additionally Mono-color offenses aren't 'that' popular, mostly because defense in general is not that popular. Also I don't know of any fort outside of ToT and GoJ that protects characters from being set-aside.

But Sam decks are good without Sam…
In my Sam deck, I've found that I attacking with a lone hero or maybe another banded in so I can get inish with a CBN battle winner in hand benefits me more than throwing all my heroes into one RA.

I'm not saying that TGT isn't good and it won't Nats, I'm just saying Sam has more speed and more power, thus giving it an edge in my mind.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2012, 01:04:40 PM »

TGT's still good. The deck that wins nats will be the one that's the best at defeating the meta defense (this includes soul generation).

Wings of Music · « **Reply #15 on:** February 14, 2012, 01:57:08 PM »

I think that TGT is the deck that does that because the Meta Defense is pretty much splash/standalones. And as for stopping soul generating characters like TAS; he can't make souls if they he's being ignored preblock.

Master KChief · « **Reply #16 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:39:53 PM »

T1 defenses arent centralizing the meta? What?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:43:56 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on February 14, 2012, 04:39:53 PM

T1 defenses arent centralizing the meta? What?

No more than usual.

Master KChief · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2012, 05:04:47 PM »

Because the usual is already centralized. Everyone uses the same defense.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM »

Quote

TGT will still often end up with an early walk in before they get their counter up and in games where things come down to the wire, that walk in is often the difference between victory and defeat.

TGT cannot walk in before your opponent has rescued a Lost Soul. That means in order to use TGT to it's fullest extent, you have to have already given something up, which a lot of the time will mean you're already one soul behind. Like you said, in games where things come to the wire, that edge is often the difference between victory and defeat. Standalone, while probably the best defense, is not dominating and centralizing the meta right now. I play online as much as anyone else, and I rarely see anyone use the standalone right now. I also never really see it in the southern PA/MD tournaments (which has a meta that's relatively based on the forums, due to a lot of forum-goers participating) and I didn't see it once in the Long Island tournament I went to this weekend. Now it might be different in MN right now, but the national meta is not MN, and the fact of the matter is that not everyone will be playing the best decks ever, due to RLKs, inexperienced players, and players who haven't played much (or at all) this season.

Quote

By gaining inish against Sam's massive banding chains to drop a CBN battle winner of your own. And as for fort killers, they take up valuable deck space, space that you could use to put in a better stop. As Alex said above, TGT is good without TGT. They have their share of awesome enhancements too, particularly in a GardenDiciples deck that uses AoCp. Additionally Mono-color offenses aren't 'that' popular, mostly because defense in general is not that popular. Also I don't know of any fort outside of ToT and GoJ that protects characters from being set-aside.

Can you name some CBN evil battle winners that stop a six or seven character FBTN banding chain? I can't think of anything, beyond using A-Pole with Wrath of Satan or something, but if you have A-Pole up, I'm not going to attack unless I have Ishmaiah the Gibeonite and Foreign Sword, DoN, or Captured Ark. The only other thing I can think of off the top of my head that really stops a FBTN banding chain is 12-Fingered-Giant, and stopping him is as simple as (if he's in territory, or in opponent's deck) using Ishmaiah on him or Outpost, or just using Bravery of David, Angel of the Lord, Grapes of Wrath or Samuel's Edict (all cards that will be found in the vast majority of Sam decks, especially FBTNB ones). TGT is only good without TGT because of Mary the Mother of James. That four hero banding is hard to stop, and aside from TGT itself, it's the only thing TGT has that's hard to stop. White has 'He is Risen', which is admittedly one of the best enhancements in the game, but as far as hard-hitting, powerful enhancements go, that's all they've got.

Keep in mind that when people are referring to TGT, they are not referring to Gardensciples. Most TGT decks refer to strictly TGT (the Garden girls, Lydia, John, Peter, and enhancements) or WaterGarden decks (decks that also splash in some Samaritans to use with Water Jar and some soul generation). Gardensciples is a different beast, which is, in my opinion, vastly superior to regular TGT or WaterGarden decks, and still inferior to Sam decks. The reasons that it's better than TGT are pretty simple. Take the best of TGT without any filler (most variants use the Garden Girls, Susie, TGT, 'He is Risen' and Consider the Lilies, with maybe one or two other enhancements), and some of the best of Disciples (John, Matt, Thomas, Peter, Bart, and Phil), with some of their best enhancements (AoCp, Passover Hymn, MLaMG). You get a lot of speed (two feasts, FDC, Matt, and some people use Fishing Boat), and you get a lot of power. Again, this is all my opinion, but I would say the power Gardensciples decks have is comprable to what a Sam deck pushes out. Now the reason that Gardensciples are probably not as good as a well-built Sam deck is because Sam decks are, inarguably, faster. We're talking about a deck that, with a strong draw (not even necessarily a perfect one) can deck out in three turns, six turns at the most. Gardensciples can deck out in six turns on a good day. That extra speed is massive when you look at the comparible power between the two decks. Gardensciples and Sam might be trading blows, but Sam is getting set up faster, so it's getting its power, and of course, SoG/NJ, faster as well.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:59:18 AM »

Quote

Sure TGT got counters but I haven't really seen anyone using them extensively. That really is the basis of my argumentation, people aren't using TGT counters, therefore, what's stopping it from winning nats again?

Better offenses being available is what's stopping it from winning Nats. "No strong counters came out" isn't a strong argument; it's essentially the equivalent of saying, "Syrians didn't get any counters this set, so what's stopping them from being the Nats winning defense?" Technically, nothing, except there are simply better options out there. I'm not saying that TGT definitely won't win Nats this year, but it winning last year was a bit of a fluke (six first turn Mayhems anyone) and Disciples, from what I can recall (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), still dominated the top 10 list.

Red · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:03:41 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:18 AM

Quote
Sure TGT got counters but I haven't really seen anyone using them extensively. That really is the basis of my argumentation, people aren't using TGT counters, therefore, what's stopping it from winning nats again?

Better offenses being available is what's stopping it from winning Nats. "No strong counters came out" isn't a strong argument; it's essentially the equivalent of saying, "Syrians didn't get any counters this set, so what's stopping them from being the Nats winning defense?" Technically, nothing, except there are simply better options out there. I'm not saying that TGT definitely won't win Nats this year, but it winning last year was a bit of a fluke (six first turn Mayhems anyone) and Disciples, from what I can recall (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong), still dominated the top 10 list.

Only the lower places in the top ten. top 5 was TGT/Old skool speed/Andrew wester.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:04:34 AM »

Didn't Westy play Disciples in six or seven of his games?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:06:52 AM »

Yeah, but on the same hand, 100% of his losses came from playing a disciples deck.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #24 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:43:42 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM

Keep in mind that when people are referring to TGT, they are not referring to Gardensciples...

Ok, I was thinking Gardendiciples myself, I apologize for not being clearer...

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM

Can you name some CBN evil battle winners that stop a six or seven character FBTN banding chain?

Gib Trick, Hunger + Plagued w/diseases, wrath... I'm noticing a pattern, all these enhancements are available in black...

stefferweffer · « **Reply #25 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:56:11 AM »

I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand, I think Alex is absolutely correct that TGT and Speed are alive and well and still a problem, despite several sets coming out since this was discovered. What I don't understand is why the new sets would sometimes add cards to strengthen speed or TGT even more, and especially make it so that more brigades can now play speed. If speed was the problem, how does spreading it out across multiple brigades help?

But I'm torn because on the other side, there have been SEVERAL counters created for TGT and for speed. And yet even this thread illustrates that people are not using the counters that they have been given. After TXP came out I used a defense that included BOTH Image of Jealousy and Destructive Sin - two territory class enhancements that could at least negate the pre-block ignore part. There were more counters created than just these, even in the last set, but those two cards alone made things more manageable, in my opinion. Speed received several counters as well (and some even existed before it was a problem). But if no one uses these cards, why not? Are they not good enough counters?

It seems to me that if they adopt the new dominants rules/cap, AND the inability to rescue your own lost souls, that speed will finally cease being so powerful. I always said the real problem was too many dominants anyway.

Red Wing · « **Reply #26 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:11:56 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 15, 2012, 11:43:42 AM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM
Keep in mind that when people are referring to TGT, they are not referring to Gardensciples...

Ok, I was thinking Gardendiciples myself, I apologize for not being clearer...

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 10:59:00 AM
Can you name some CBN evil battle winners that stop a six or seven character FBTN banding chain?

Gib Trick, Hunger + Plagued w/diseases, wrath... I'm noticing a pattern, all these enhancements are available in black...

Hunger & Wrath will not work without the CBP LS or A-Pole out. Gib Trick probably won't work against a six or seven character FBTN chain.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM »

But again, the counters to FBTN are out there. It's just that hardly anyone uses them. 12FG, COM, HOH, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, CBP Lost Soul, etc. Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

soul seeker · « **Reply #28 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:50:58 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM

Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

It saddens me that people believe this. I have let this thread and others go on without chiming in (for fear of being perceived as arrogant). I believe that the code has been cracked and it is possible to do it. The following are the reasons why:
1) I have beaten all the top decks in this thread multiple times.
2) My deck has run as fast as other decks mentioned in this thread.
3) I have played RooT and got 4th (not 3rd by differential) with my deck playing a variety of different top notch decks, but those losses would be understandable if people SAW the game.
a) 1st loss: my deck drew out very poorly, and Prof U turtled against me (which is not possible in live tourneys). A better draw would have seen the game turn a bit in my favor. That same month, I survived two other turtles.
b) 2nd loss: I about had this game won except that Pol had 1 extra (and very rare) character in his deck that is not in other decks of that same meta (I don't give other's decks away, but just trust me...the hero that won him the game is not in other decks of that type.)

My main deck is very capable, but it has one and a half weakness.
Weakness 1: It can draw poorly on occassion...most of the time I overcome it...in my game with Prof U...I didn't.
Weakness 1/2: It will NOT give someone a huge lost soul differential. However, as long as it wins, it doesn't matter.

All that to say this...there are multiple anti-meta possibilities...people need to use their creativity to find them the same way "speed" players have used their creativity to find the combos to create the fastest deck.

Then again, what do I know...I'm just a noob.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #29 on:** February 15, 2012, 12:53:15 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 12:23:21 PM

But again, the counters to FBTN are out there. It's just that hardly anyone uses them. 12FG, COM, HOH, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, CBP Lost Soul, etc. Unfortunately there's little way to make a reasonably sized deck that counters all the "metas" at once and have room left, and move quickly enough, to be competitive.

The main problem is that Sam is so fast that, unless an anti-meta deck draws one (usually two or three would be required) of their anti-meta cards, Sam gains enough counters to the anti-meta cards that it can't be stopped. All artifacts can be taken out with Foreign Sword, DoN, or Captured Ark, the CBP LS is countered by Wanderer, Burial, SoG/NJ, and Foreign Sword, 12FG isn't strong enough to stop Sam more than once (due to reasons I listed before). Sam moves so fast that outside a good draw (not even an average one), anti-meta cannot stop Sam long enough to get the edge necessary to win.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:06:25 PM »

In other words, go hard or go home.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #31 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:13:51 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 15, 2012, 11:04:34 AM

Didn't Westy play Disciples in six or seven of his games?

No. I played it three games. Afterward, I played it in several fun games, which lead me to pronounce it's 6-0 record.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on February 15, 2012, 11:06:52 AM

Yeah, but on the same hand, 100% of his losses came from playing a disciples deck.

Also not true. My loss was to RDT, and I was playing my Troll deck. Additionally, my two ties (both of which could have been wins...grr...) were with my troll deck, which essentially gave me another loss.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #32 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:22:21 PM »

TGT's still good. Sure, you have to give up a LS, but then your offense becomes a LOT more powerful. Chris, what defenses have you been seeing other than standalone?

lp670sv · « **Reply #33 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:23:16 PM »

My Canaanites Defense does not count as it has yet to win a game

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:25:44 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 01:22:21 PM

TGT's still good. Sure, you have to give up a LS, but then your offense becomes a LOT more powerful. Chris, what defenses have you been seeing other than standalone?

A lot of pale green, mostly Assyrians and Magicians; Gates of Samaria decks, Herods (which make a surprisingly effective anti-meta), black (Canaanites and/or Philistines), and of course, Genyptians. I see a lot more pale green than I see anything else, with standalone being second.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #35 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:40:58 PM »

Hmm. I knew that they were good in T2, didn't think it would bleed over to T1 given the different strategies involved. I might try to experiment with them.

DDiceRC · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:51:18 PM »

One of the decks Chris played that used a defense he mentions was mine last weekend. Magicians mostly, with a couple of standalone demons. However, it was a gimmick deck (Job), so it probably shouldn't count.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2012, 01:52:00 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 01:40:58 PM

Hmm. I knew that they were good in T2, didn't think it would bleed over to T1 given the different strategies involved. I might try to experiment with them.

I never claimed they were good, only that I played them.

Red · « **Reply #38 on:** February 15, 2012, 02:45:13 PM »

Three things.

One: Foreign sword is garbage.

Two:anti-meta is very possible.

Three: Palegreen needs not to be bashed.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #39 on:** February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants?
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense?
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON?
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:04:02 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants?
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense?
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON?
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach?

Most of the time, my seven card dominant set would be Son of God, New Jerusalem, Angel of the Lord, Christian Martyr, Mayhem, Grapes of Wrath, and Harvest Time. The dom cap certainly wouldn't make me give up on speed, though I would make sure one or two of the now-open card slots would go towards defense.

Quote from: Red on February 15, 2012, 02:45:13 PM

One: Foreign sword is garbage.

Do you want to back that up? Keeping in mind my own Sam deck is something like 20-2 (rough estimate), Foreign Sword has probably helped me in 15 or 16 of those games.

Red Wing · « **Reply #41 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:14:10 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on February 15, 2012, 02:52:31 PM

Here's my questions for 50-52 card "speed" players: IF the dominant cap changes to = the number of lost souls in your deck, will you ...

1) Increase the size of your deck so that you can include more dominants? No
2) Use mostly evil dominants to assist your defense? No
3) Abandon evil dominants completely (except maybe DON), and go with something like SOG, AOTL, HT, GOW, GOYS, NJ and DON? No
4) Completely give up on speed and go with a more balanced approach? No

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:21:37 PM »

Foreign Sword is the awesome!

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #43 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:28:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 15, 2012, 03:21:37 PM

Foreing Sword is the Bomb.

I agree. Let's get a list going of all the things Foreign Sword does, shall we?

Completely stops self-capture defenses.
Stops placed "draw 2 and play next" enhancements by putting the character (or the enhancement, if character is protected) on top of deck.
Stops Writ
Stops Charms
Puts a site on top of deck if site access is needed
Negates a Lost Soul if access is otherwise unavailable
Puts an Uzzah or Gomer (or any other EC) on top of deck if they're in play
In general stalls your opponent; keep in mind that if you use Foreign Sword three times in one game, that's one draw phase

Now, keep in mind that Foreign Sword is recurrable via Soldier's Prayer, and the negate still works even when not played off of a Philistine or Canaanite, and you have a potent force that should probably work its way into any deck with more than two red WC heroes.

Red · « **Reply #44 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:49:37 PM »

I just feel I could put in a better card when I use foreign sword. It slows you down and usaly doesn't directly win a battle.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #45 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:53:48 PM »

It doesn't always win a battle but it often gives access.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2012, 03:56:08 PM »

It can take away your opponent's ability to win a battle, which is almost the same thing.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2012, 04:17:47 PM »

To bad it doesn't stop Asherah Pole anymore

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2012, 07:27:12 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 15, 2012, 04:17:47 PM

To bad it doesn't stop Asherah Pole anymore

I hadn't considered that; that's a good point.

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