Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Topic started by: Reth on July 30, 2017, 12:54:01 PM
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Hi there,
currently I do not get really a clue out of this card. It is a rare but its special ability for me seems too restrictive.
Reason: Since even if you construct a pure Reveletion offense you do not play good Dominants such often when attacking with him?
Or did miss something?
Thanks for your opinions.
Bye
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Can you post the special ability? I kind of know what it does, but I don't remember everything it does.
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Hi there,
currently I do not get really a clue out of this card. It is a rare but its special ability for me seems too restrictive.
Reason: Since even if you construct a pure Reveletion offense you do not play good Dominants such often when attacking with him?
Or did miss something?
Thanks for your opinions.
Bye
hm i think i remember saying the same thing lol
all in all it was clearly determined to be "overpowered" without the restriction even though in a t1 game you may only wind up ever even being able to use it once anyway. i'd say judging from the looks of Jephthah from the J deck it's cost is higher since it costs you playing a dominant when you rescue with it and it only takes out 1 thing. not a card worth playing due to it being watered down by the restrict in my opinion. it may be more popular if it was more playable
overall Three Woes is probably just a better card to have for the same solutions and more which you would have in any deck anyway
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It just isn't a good card sadly. Even disregarding the revelation Heroes restriction, it's an ability that has to be used in battle that doesn't help you win the battle. The absolutely best case scenario is that there's some evil character that needs to be removed in territory (Most popular example being Wives right after you were mayhemed) so you attack with this guy and play SoG to kill the Wives. The opportunity cost of this is you are not using some other angel like wrath angel or the draw 3 angel, and you are handing your opponent initiative on a silver platter (12/12). I played a Revelation angel deck for a little while when RoJ first came out and had to cut this guy because there were just always better angels to attack with.
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The original version of Army did not have a limit on the number of discards per turn. During playtesting, I built a deck that included 6 good dominants plus Three Woes, and my opponents literally could not keep defense on the table (especially since TSC gives an extra dominant play). It was decided that was simply too much territory destruction for one card. Yes, it's a "cost" to play a good dominant, but you aren't really sacrificing anything because you also get the benefit of the dominant--the only sacrifice is perhaps giving up the opportunity to play the dominant at a more opportune time.
Combined with The White Stone (whose ability later moved to Book of Life), Army was just ridiculous.
Now I won't sit here and argue that we found the perfect balance for Army--perhaps it should not have been restricted quite so much, but I do think it's worthwhile Hero for a dedicated Revelation Angel deck. A very common dominant selection I've seen is SoG/TSC/AotL/Grapes/Three Woes plus 2 evil doms. With the recursion of TSC, that's 6 potential discard opportunities for Army, which is more than enough in my mind to make it worth it.
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Can you post the special ability? I kind of know what it does, but I don't remember everything it does.
Special Ability:
Once per turn, if all your Heroes are Revelation Heroes and you play a good Dominant, you may negate and discard an evil card in a territory or set-aside area. Cannot be negated.
But honestly: Isn't it restricted too much? Wouldn't be restriction to Revelation heroes only be sufficient (or sth. else similar) - not having the good Dom thing there in addition (or territory class in addition)?
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i mean i think the idea originally was to use this hero as a finisher or mid game boost to be able to get through tough evil characters/protect forts..
generally speaking i would say Three Woes/Holy Grail/Sword of the Spirit or Golden Censer provide these solutions more effectively. sometimes having a 12/12 guy is great but 24 Elders is simply much better for the same purpose practically speaking. all of that said Angelic Army does not make it into any of my competitive builds due to it being a once per turn ability, having no draw or search component, and being big without the security of being fbtn. if i wanted to neutralize evil cards in my opponents territory or set aside i'm pretty positive the cards i mentioned are more reliable and efficient. so if you are looking for ways to utilize this card, pretty much look at the other cards i mentioned because unfortunately it is not a top tier card. without the power of being able to take out multiple evil cards in one swing, it is much more of a liability than an asset in my opinion
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This is why I mentioned the territory class. This would keep all other restrictions still alive while just removing the battle part. Or has this been also tested and considered to be too strong?
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This is why I mentioned the territory class. This would keep all other restrictions still alive while just removing the battle part. Or has this been also tested and considered to be too strong?
Territory class would be too strong. The reasons it's bad now is the opportunity cost of attacking with it and being forced to use your dominants at a specific time. Territory class completely removes both of those costs.
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i mean i think the idea originally was to use this hero as a finisher or mid game boost to be able to get through tough evil characters/protect forts..
generally speaking i would say Three Woes/Holy Grail/Sword of the Spirit or Golden Censer provide these solutions more effectively. sometimes having a 12/12 guy is great but 24 Elders is simply much better for the same purpose practically speaking. all of that said Angelic Army does not make it into any of my competitive builds due to it being a once per turn ability, having no draw or search component, and being big without the security of being fbtn. if i wanted to neutralize evil cards in my opponents territory or set aside i'm pretty positive the cards i mentioned are more reliable and efficient. so if you are looking for ways to utilize this card, pretty much look at the other cards i mentioned because unfortunately it is not a top tier card. without the power of being able to take out multiple evil cards in one swing, it is much more of a liability than an asset in my opinion
+1
I tried Angelic Army myself, and it did not work out. As you said, the once per turn was too narrow for me to be able to shut down certain ECs.
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I tried Angelic Army myself, and it did not work out. As you said, the once per turn was too narrow for me to be able to shut down certain ECs.
But would you propose instead of "once per turn"? Just leaving it out would restrict you even to play your dominant when the SA of Angelic Army is triggered!
Well it also supports Angel of Might in being a revelation angel too - but whether this is worth it ...
For the removing part I also agree to JD - there are better options.
Thanks for your thoughts! Further hints, ideas and input is highly welcome!
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Special Ability:
Territory Class
Once per turn, If all your Heroes are Revelation Heroes Angels and you play a good Dominant, you may negate and discard an evil card in a territory or set-aside area. Cannot be negated.
The above I think would be a balanced way of making the card more playable, but I think its good to have niche cards like Disciples of the Lamb, Song of Moses, Twelve Gates, etc., , because they are fun to use, and consequently they add another layer to casual play. Not every card has to be useful!
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are you looking to create a revelation angel themed deck with this card in it?
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are you looking to create a revelation angel themed deck with this card in it?
Whom do you mean?
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There's also considerations for T2 where I can have 5-6 good dominants and also still have all the evil dominants.
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Pretty much all silver offenses should have Gabriel and probably AUTO. That makes Army bad.
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I enjoy using Army immensely. My favorite plays are to get the discard off with the new Guardian and TSC. Using AotL gets a double kill. My favorite deck with him is using Covenant of Death with Angels. Any Michael, Angelic Army, and Angel of might are all Cbn. At our southwest regional, Army won me five souls.
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Gabriel (from I starters) and AutO are in here (well while I wondered whether I can use AutO to draw even though I can't exchange him since his SA says and).
I enjoy using Army immensely. My favorite plays are to get the discard off with the new Guardian and TSC. Using AotL gets a double kill. My favorite deck with him is using Covenant of Death with Angels. Any Michael, Angelic Army, and Angel of might are all Cbn. At our southwest regional, Army won me five souls.
This sounds really interesting! What did you use for defending then while CwD was active?
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Probably CBP stuff only thing is cwd shuts down your best strategies and some aggro builds meaning you are not exactly setting yourself up for success consistently trying to play control
I don't see cwd or angelic army being in decks that make top cut
Basically you are better off playing the BoM deck and getting those lovely blocks against TSA and angelic army all day while they have their cwd up- from a guy who won Regionals with cwd and lost at nationals with cwd
I see both of these cards as cards that may give a newer player challenges more out of frustration than actual effectiveness where as the ones I mentioned will most likely and have been in top cut
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JD doesn't want anyone using CWD at nats. "Negating characters and restricting playing enhancements in territory" Geez, I wonder what deck type would be hurt against that ::)
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Or I'm giving you valuable advice from experience and if you knew what deck I'm playing you would kick yourself for even considering cwd ;)
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Are you saying the Kony Hype was a distraction for another deck?
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Its a great deck its not my fault if you try to tech against me lol
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CWD techs against everyone! Even yourself...
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Personally I think CwD is always a great choice in any meta if you build your deck with it in mind. 8)
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Cwd is as much an opportunity cost as rescuing with angelic army
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But it's a cost that can be mitigated if you build your deck to account for it. (i.e. CBN/CBP characters, no territory class enhancements unless they are also useful in battle)
I'm definitely not saying CwD can go into any deck, just that it's a legit meta-counter that requires a certain build around it. 8)
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Oh yeah I totally agree but there are limited card slots and cards that simply prove much more effective for completing the objective of the game which is to rescue lost souls
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If a deck could win Nats without SoG, I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
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Between death and Christ, I'm siding with Christ ;)
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If a deck could win Nats without SoG, I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
If I put a buckler in my deck and won Nats, that doesn't mean buckler is good it means the deck was good enough to function in spite of running a dead card. Just because a deck that includes or doesn't include a certain card gets results doesn't mean that card choice was optimal.
That said I do know of at least one deck that is almost entirely unaffected by CWD and does quite well with it.
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The problem with CWD is that Humble LS is a thing. Which means if I'm running CWD, I'm almost certainly also running some way of hitting my opponent's hand (I Am Holy, 6th Bowl, 3rd Seal, etc).
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I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
I know for sure there is one. And I'm expecting great things from it. 8)
Well, decks in the covenant with death camp sure sound promising :police:
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If a deck could win Nats without SoG, I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
If I put a buckler in my deck and won Nats, that doesn't mean buckler is good it means the deck was good enough to function in spite of running a dead card. Just because a deck that includes or doesn't include a certain card gets results doesn't mean that card choice was optimal.
That said I do know of at least one deck that is almost entirely unaffected by CWD and does quite well with it.
Well this a kinda straw man. If CWD is in the deck, I'm sure is central to the strategy. ::)
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Between death and Christ, I'm siding with Christ ;)
Christ's Triumphs, huh? ;D
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If a deck could win Nats without SoG, I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
If I put a buckler in my deck and won Nats, that doesn't mean buckler is good it means the deck was good enough to function in spite of running a dead card. Just because a deck that includes or doesn't include a certain card gets results doesn't mean that card choice was optimal.
That said I do know of at least one deck that is almost entirely unaffected by CWD and does quite well with it.
Well this a kinda straw man. If CWD is in the deck, I'm sure is central to the strategy. ::)
For the sake of the discussion, even in a deck based around CWD, CWD isn't automatically optimal. It could just be that the cards that happen to work with CWD also happen to be cards that are just good cards in their own right. Especially as has been pointed out with Humble Soul, prevents just aren't what they used to be.
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If a deck could win Nats without SoG, I'm sure there is one as well that can win with CWD.
If I put a buckler in my deck and won Nats, that doesn't mean buckler is good it means the deck was good enough to function in spite of running a dead card. Just because a deck that includes or doesn't include a certain card gets results doesn't mean that card choice was optimal.
That said I do know of at least one deck that is almost entirely unaffected by CWD and does quite well with it.
Well this a kinda straw man. If CWD is in the deck, I'm sure is central to the strategy. ::)
For the sake of the discussion, even in a deck based around CWD, CWD isn't automatically optimal. It could just be that the cards that happen to work with CWD also happen to be cards that are just good cards in their own right. Especially as has been pointed out with Humble Soul, prevents just aren't what they used to be.
Geez, The humble soul would stump CWD quite a bit. Whatever could I do about that I wonder...
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The irony of suggesting cwd works great with angelic army is that cwd is almost the only card worth running angelic army to take out so you effectively have the answer to your own counter
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Of course, but you at the same time suggesting to people not to use Angelic Army in a deck. Can't have both.
Every strategy has a counter and none of us has to time or patience to one up on each other on CWD usefulness or lack of, but in the end I wouldn't underestimate it nor a player's creative mind to maximize its potential.
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Confusion of Mind is the new Covenant with death. Does the best half of what CWD does and it's just their characters! hehe CWD was awesome with judges but now lots of meta offenses need their hero abilities, and ideally you want to counter the opponent's cards without countering yours.
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+1
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Confusion of Mind is the new Covenant with death.
I like using both. Improved chances of getting at least one of them opening hand. :maul:
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I also put CoM in many decks and I am also struggling with CwD all the time and did not find a reasonable way to utilise it for my deck ideas.
But due to lack of experience and to be a little back on topic I want to ask what is meant by this exactly: Basically you are better off playing the BoM deck and getting those lovely blocks against TSA and angelic army all day
?
Since CoW Moses cannot prevent nor negate TSA resp. AArmy - so I did not get it...
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Confusion is dramatically less effective now courtesy of Gabe.
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I also put CoM in many decks and I am also struggling with CwD all the time and did not find a reasonable way to utilise it for my deck ideas.
But due to lack of experience and to be a little back on topic I want to ask what is meant by this exactly: Basically you are better off playing the BoM deck and getting those lovely blocks against TSA and angelic army all day
?
Since CoW Moses cannot prevent nor negate TSA resp. AArmy - so I did not get it...
The BoM deck is hardly grazed by either CWD or Angelic Army and Angelic Army with Cwd up is an ideal blocking scenario
On to of that assuming you are sacrificing speed for control you are almost positively without Goys
I have watched far too many games against control decks end 4-5 due to being slow by nature. Decks going 4-5 will almost certainly not make top cut this year
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The BoM deck is hardly grazed by either CWD or Angelic Army and Angelic Army with Cwd up is an ideal blocking scenario
Why that? CwD deactivates Moses and why is CwD and AArmy an ideal blocking scenario for a BoM deck (I understand the BoM deck can block this combo in ideal ways)?
And the other way around will Moses deactivate Humble!
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And the other way around will Moses deactivate Humble!
Humble is not affected by Moses. Its ability is CBN.
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But humble only says: "During battle, while opponent has more cards in hand than you, your cards cannot be prevented by opponents' cards."
So where is it CBN?
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But humble only says: "During battle, while opponent has more cards in hand than you, your cards cannot be prevented by opponents' cards."
So where is it CBN?
The granting of cannot be prevented to any ability cannot be negated
The same is true for granting Cannot be Interrupted and Cannot be Negated.
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Sure but it also says:
The cannot be prevented modifier modifies another ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted
by any prevent or negate ability played before it activates.
Humble modifies itself, so if Moses is now played after Humble it will negate it - or did I miss sth.?
And even more Reg says: An ability cannot gain cannot be prevented retroactively; it has cannot be prevented when played or not at all.
But if having a territory class character in play which SA does not have CBP (nor CBI nor CBN) it will get it retroactively when during a future battle with Humble in play at the same side - at least it did not get it when played! How does this work out?
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Modifiers are not special abilities so they are not negatable.
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Can you please elaborate this a little in terms of this example?
And what about my 2nd question (posted in parallel to your response)?
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Can you please elaborate this a little in terms of this example?
And what about my 2nd question (posted in parallel to your response)?
For whether Humble is activate or not, the order cards come down doesn't matter. No matter whether Moses comes down before or after Humble, Humble's ability will work because it cannot be negated.
The reason a territory character can gain CBP from Humble when moving from territory to battle is because the territory class character deactivates when it leaves territory and reactivates when it enters battle. During this reactivation it can gain CBx.
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Can you please elaborate this a little in terms of this example?
And what about my 2nd question (posted in parallel to your response)?
Moses negates special abilities. Modifiers are not special abilities.
TC characters are CBP/CBN/CBI when they are activated. If you put down Music Leader in territory and I activate Covenant with Death, your Music Leader is now negated. If you draw the Humble LS, Music Leader is still negated unless you then attack with him, which reactivates his ability and his ability can then gain the CBP from Humble LS (assuming the condition is met).
*kevinthedude beat me to it. :P
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Can you please elaborate this a little in terms of this example?
And what about my 2nd question (posted in parallel to your response)?
Moses negates special abilities. Modifiers are not special abilities.
TC characters are CBP/CBN/CBI when they are activated. If you put down Music Leader in territory and I activate Covenant with Death, your Music Leader is now negated. If you draw the Humble LS, Music Leader is still negated unless you then attack with him, which reactivates his ability and his ability can then gain the CBP from Humble LS (assuming the condition is met).
*kevinthedude beat me to it. :P
To clarify, when the now CBP Music Leader leaves battle, it will deactivate as a character in battle and reactivate as a territory class character when it reenters territory, losing the CBP from Humble since it is no longer "during battle", correct? Or does the return to territory and reactivation occur during battle resolution and thus still be "during battle"?
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That question occurred to me as well...I believe "during battle" only refers to the actual battle, and not battle resolution, but I'm much less certain on that point.
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Thanx guys!
But these explanations reminds me on that thread about the complex and confusing rules (and the ones given bye Kevinthedude and The Guardian are some kind of déjà vu somehow - think I already read this once back then here or in Lackey).
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That question occurred to me as well...I believe "during battle" only refers to the actual battle, and not battle resolution, but I'm much less certain on that point.
I'm not sure I see how "during battle" can mean anything except the battle phase itself. Regardless of how Humble plays into it, do you know if the reactivation of the territory class character in territory occurs during the battle phase?
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My understanding (and this could be wrong, I'm not 100% certain) is that the Battle Phase consists of two parts: "battle" and "battle resolution," which is why cards that activate "after battle" happen during battle resolution. TC characters would activate upon entering territory during battle resolution.
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My understanding (and this could be wrong, I'm not 100% certain) is that the Battle Phase consists of two parts: "battle" and "battle resolution," which is why cards that activate "after battle" happen during battle resolution. TC characters would activate upon entering territory during battle resolution.
After checking through the REG you are definitely at least correct that "battle" and "battle resolution" are two different things so for the matter at hand it would seem that Music Leader would not reactivate in territory "during battle". Now I have a new question though since the REG seems to conflict on this. Are "battle" and "battle resolution" two parts of the overall "battle phase" or does "battle phase" only refer to the "battle" portion and "battle resolution" occurs either it its own mini-phase or is it not part of a phase at all? The End of the Battle entry especially strongly indicates that the battle resolution is not part of the main "battle phase".
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Do after battle abilities trigger before a hero is being discarded/mutual destruction?
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Didn't read thread, here to agree with the people saying Army was over-restricted into "not worth it" territory.
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I used Army at nats for t22P and it was awesome. Using the discard on tough ECs , gates of hell, or even a curse was awesome considering I was burning GoYS, SoG, and Second Coming anyway. It got me souls and didn't regret it in the least.
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*See new signature*
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*Sees new signature*