Author Topic: What enables AUTO abuse? (Read 27940 times)

uthminister [BR] · « **on:** April 16, 2015, 10:48:30 AM »

What enables AUTO abuse? Samuel...David or Saul...Gideon...? Just wanting a list because I think a set rotation (like mentioned in the Land of Redemption article) might nerf some of the issue. If we split everything pre-Priests and everything Priests forward, would that take care of any of the current overuse of AUTO?

jesse · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2015, 10:57:45 AM »

Wouldn't it be better to just ban one card, auto, rather than effectively ban everything pre-priests? I personally much prefer counters

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:03:51 AM »

I split this off into it's own topic rather than hijack the card creation thread. I think this is a great discussion to have. We can't accurately understand how to solve a problem until we understand all the components.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:11:06 AM »

@jesse: Banning everything pre-Priests is not what we are talking about. It is about splitting the card pool and competitive play into two different categories. All cards would still be legal for play but not together (thinking in Type-1 only). That might even provide an inroad for players who used to play a long time ago to get back into the game without the idea of a huge investment right off the bat.

@everyone: Just a thought but would like a good list of what enables AUTO?

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:23:14 AM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on April 16, 2015, 11:11:06 AM

@everyone: Just a thought but would like a good list of what enables AUTO?

Here's a start. I'm sure others can add to this.

Wheel Within a Wheel
Angelic Guidance
Jair
Samuel
Gideon
Samuel's Edict
Simeon (Wa)
Moses

To a lesser degree:
Birth Foretold
Samson
Ehud
Jephthah
Jacob

Eragon5 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:28:04 AM »

Westy mentioned Jacob banding to AutO banding to Moses for a two card draw plus a 14/13 fight by the numbers (in the biggest band topic).
AutO Gideon is the biggest IMO the ability to protect Gideon against opponents CBN + draw 2 cards is huge. Especially with unstoppable cards like Samuel's edict. Right now there are only two cards that I can think of that have regardless of protection (seek and destroy/stone of thebez). If combined with things like josiah's covenant, there is no way to get rid of either of them (without regardless of protection or negating Josiah's covenant).
However mainly it is his versatile ability to exchange to a gold hero in deck territory hand or discard pile that makes AutO so powerful. Especially with such powerful judges like Ehud, Jepthah, Jair, and Samuel. I don't see banning cards or limiting what can be used with what as a good way to stop AutO. Both solutions will propbably end up making AutO useless. I don't like the idea of punishing people who have specifically sought out specific cards to make a good strategy. I would rather make a counter card that makes it possible to stop AutO but to not make him useless.
I haven't played in tourney's so I haven't seen many of the AutO combos so I'll leave a list to someone else.
Never mind Gabe just posted a list.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:40:28 AM »

jephtha belongs on Gabe's list
Honestly Auto isn't that terrible if you have to draw him. However you don't have to draw him. WWW and Angelic Guidance pull him out and both of those cards fit super easy into decks that use AUTO. Add the fact that Zaddok's Annoints can get him and if your deck is built right you can have auto turn 1 in 50% or more of games.

I feel like the issue revolves more around cost free search abilities that are so easily playable.

50 card decks are optimal because it lets you get to power sooner. If it was allowed people may go as low as 25-30 card decks. Since its not the next best thing is rip through your deck as fast as possible to get to the best rescues. auto does that better then any other hero in the game and he is easily tutored by the 3 most used utility cards in the game.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:44:15 AM »

How much silver is usually in AutO decks? Angel with the Secret Name I see, but other than him and Samuel I don't see many to play off WWW and Angelic Guidance?

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2015, 11:48:04 AM »

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 16, 2015, 11:44:15 AM

How much silver is usually in AutO decks? Angel with the Secret Name I see, but other than him and Samuel I don't see many to play off WWW and Angelic Guidance?

Take a look at the to placing deck lists from Nationals over the past three years. There are many good examples there of how top players abuse AUTO.

kariusvega · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:26:23 PM »

win or whine trying

2014 t1 2p winner where is auto in that deck? lol

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:28:57 PM »

Quote from: Eragon5 on April 16, 2015, 11:44:15 AM

How much silver is usually in AutO decks? Angel with the Secret Name I see, but other than him and Samuel I don't see many to play off WWW and Angelic Guidance?

If someone is using The Deck instead of straight Judges, you will frequently find Seraph W/ Live Coal, Captain of the Host, Michael, and/or The Strong Angel in the deck. Additional Green heroes commonly include Aaron (used in both Judges and The Deck), David, Isaiah, and/or Daniel.

kariusvega · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:30:23 PM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on April 16, 2015, 10:48:30 AM

What enables AUTO abuse? Samuel...David or Saul...Gideon...? Just wanting a list because I think a set rotation (like mentioned in the Land of Redemption article) might nerf some of the issue. If we split everything pre-Priests and everything Priests forward, would that take care of any of the current overuse of AUTO?

do you mean abusing auto with foreign wives? lol and fortify site?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:33:12 PM »

The problem with auto is that it works in the early game (+2) and the late game (bullet proof Gid when defense is set up).

Quote from: kariusvega on April 16, 2015, 12:26:23 PM

win or whine trying

2014 t1 2p winner where is auto in that deck? lol

That's an interesting point because the last three national champions didn't use auto.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:51:24 PM »

Multiple counters have been printed but haven't changed the prevalence of AUTO. I'm doubtful that printing more counters is the answer. The problem with counters is that they have to be used in opposing decks and then drawn early enough to matter.

Assuming something is done about AUTO:

If an errata is issued - does removing CBN from AUTO fix the problem?

If a rule change is issued - does limiting each player to 1 draw/search ability per turn fix the problem? Does it cause other problems?

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 16, 2015, 12:33:12 PM

That's an interesting point because the last three national champions didn't use auto.

That's just one of 5 constructed categories. Other category winners did use AUTO. He was in over 50% of the reported decks that placed in the top 3 every year since his release.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2015, 12:58:52 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 16, 2015, 12:51:24 PM

That's just one of 5 constructed categories. Other category winners did use AUTO. He was in over 50% of the reported decks that placed in the top 3 every year since his release.

Son of God was in 100%.

I don't see this issue here.

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** April 16, 2015, 01:05:03 PM »

Quote from: Westy on April 16, 2015, 12:58:52 PM

Son of God was in 100%.

I don't see this issue here.

Feel free to start your own thread to discuss the dominants used in every deck. Or do a podcast.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** April 16, 2015, 01:13:13 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 16, 2015, 01:05:03 PM

Quote from: Westy on April 16, 2015, 12:58:52 PM
Son of God was in 100%.

I don't see this issue here.

Feel free to start your own thread to discuss the dominants used in every deck. Or do a podcast.

I'm just calling double standard here. Everybody hates AutO because he's a draw card, but cards like SoG and even Foreign Wives to an extent are just as popular (and OP).

Maybe I will though. We're planning on doing another one this weekend and we need a topic.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** April 16, 2015, 01:18:19 PM »

FTR I brought up the Dominants in my article as well. But I think each card is it's own problem and warrants it's own discussion and solution.

I'm less likely to call Foreign Wives a problem at this point. I don't see her used nearly as much.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** April 16, 2015, 01:23:23 PM »

AUtO is so powerful because his ability reads "Draw 2. Become any gold judge. If you choose Gideon, protect from opponents. CBN." Any judge in territory gains "draw 2" on their ability, and as pointed out there is so much to search him out and he has his own search. I have personally abused him to great effect in T2.

However...we have counters already to all of these points. RBD, Nazareth, Hezzy's Ring, FW, and so on. While he is by far the most powerful hero (IMO and many others'), I'm not sure there isn't a lot out there already to hold him down. Some of it just isn't being used as much or extensively.

On fixes, I do not want to see an errata to take away CBN, just because I'm not a fan of having to undo exchanges and cascade negate beyond that. Though printed counters always have the issue that speed counters require speed to obtain before you can counter the speedy decks.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 16, 2015, 02:47:11 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 16, 2015, 12:51:24 PM

Assuming something is done about AUTO:

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2015, 01:23:23 PM

AUtO is so powerful because his ability reads "Draw 2. Become any gold judge. If you choose Gideon, protect from opponents. CBN." Any judge in territory gains "draw 2" on their ability, and as pointed out there is so much to search him out and he has his own search.

The how about modifying the base Draw ability itself?

When a player draws cards from a special ability on a card he controls, he must discard 1 card from the top of his deck for every two cards drawn (rounded down). Lost Souls are put into play instead.

There you go, you simply fix for AUtO by nerfing speed.

Drrek · « **Reply #20 on:** April 16, 2015, 02:52:34 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 16, 2015, 02:47:11 PM

Quote from: Gabe on April 16, 2015, 12:51:24 PM
Assuming something is done about AUTO:

Quote from: Redoubter on April 16, 2015, 01:23:23 PM
AUtO is so powerful because his ability reads "Draw 2. Become any gold judge. If you choose Gideon, protect from opponents. CBN." Any judge in territory gains "draw 2" on their ability, and as pointed out there is so much to search him out and he has his own search.

The how about modifying the base Draw ability itself?

When a player draws cards from a special ability on a card he controls, he must discard 1 card from the top of his deck for every two cards drawn (rounded down). Lost Souls are put into play instead.

There you go, you simply fix for AUtO by nerfing speed.

This is an absolutely awful rule that randomly punishes you for drawing. Redemption is very much a game where getting unlucky in a card discarded from the top of deck can ruin you, and having this random discard built into drawing is awful. In addition this massively hurts drawing , while leaving searches perfectly alone, when they are just as bad.

As another note, drawing is not bad for the game. Drawing helps games go faster, which is good. What is bad is costless drawing, like what AuTO has.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 16, 2015, 03:26:08 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on April 16, 2015, 02:52:34 PM

This is an absolutely awful rule that randomly punishes you for drawing.

I agree with the second half of your statement. This is a rule that definitely punishes you for drawing.

Quote

Redemption is very much a game where getting unlucky in a card discarded from the top of deck can ruin you, and having this random discard built into drawing is awful.

No one is forcing you to use cards with a multiple-card draw special ability. If losing a card at random concerns you, simply do not put AUtO or Matthew or... into your deck. Viola' not a problem for you.

Quote

As another note, drawing is not bad for the game. Drawing helps games go faster, which is good. What is bad is costless drawing, like what AuTO has.

Modifying the draw ability, as I proposed means there would no longer be such a thing as "costless drawing."

kariusvega · « **Reply #22 on:** April 16, 2015, 03:34:00 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 16, 2015, 11:03:51 AM

I split this off into it's own topic rather than hijack the card creation thread. I think this is a great discussion to have. We can't accurately understand how to solve a problem until we understand all the components.

Is it contradictory to say speed increases the fun of this game (which it absolutely does) and then say nerf speed as if auto is the only speed card? Lol

Red · « **Reply #23 on:** April 16, 2015, 03:56:39 PM »

Why are we considering AuTo a problem? Of all of the cards we are claiming to be broken why AuTo? A ban would be a horrendous idea that would cause a terrible slippery slope. If you ban AuTo you need to ban Isaiah/Joseph/Thad/TGT. Then we have some progress.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #24 on:** April 16, 2015, 03:59:43 PM »

It all started with Gabe, AutO and bacon...

News:

Author Topic: What enables AUTO abuse? (Read 27940 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

kariusvega