Author Topic: Countering Green  (Read 138 times)

Offline Bobbert

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Countering Green
« on: December 06, 2018, 10:37:34 AM »
+1
So it goes without saying that there will likely be a lot of prophets running around this year. Nearly two-thirds of the new good cards are green, and several of the ones that aren't still support prophets or multicolor themes that include them (like Daniel or Exodus) - not to mention that anyone running a star-based offense gets to use the new "good Wages", The Emmaus Road.

This, of course, begs the question: how do you play against green? I have a couple ideas, but I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

Historically, two of Prophets' greatest strengths have been searching and CBN enhancements. Although I don't expect to see as many people running FOOF Isaiah this year (despite a plethora of new Isaiah enhancements), the new one still grants CBN in a way that Coliseum won't counter, and as Master Q pointed out in his prophets build Watchman/Zeke will be as tempting as ever. In addition, they now have two more advantages: speed punishment (Jonah/Habakkuk) and swarm (Virgin Birth, Prophetess, many minors getting boosts from other minors).

So, how do we counter these strengths? Here's my ideas:

1. Blanket Negation
Admittedly, this is based of a possibly incorrect assumption on how star cards work (see my ruling questions post). However, by my estimation, having something that negates characters and enhancements/restricts their play outside of battle (Golden Calf, Covenant with Death, CoW Moses) would stop the abilities of star cards from activating. This will severely hamper the reserve access of a full prophets deck, limiting their options significantly. In addition, this will significantly limit the potential of Jonah, Nahum, Habakkuk, and Road to Emmaus, which all have potentially game-winning TC abilities.
According to the ruling thread, star cards are not stopped by in-play effects.

2. CBN/I enhancements
Prophets have plenty of interrupts/negates at their disposal (Two Bears, Suffering Servant, Forest Fire, Faith of Samuel, Live Coal - just to name a few of the more common ones). When fighting them, there's always a good chance that they have at least one available to them. How do you counter this? By playing things they can't interrupt, of course! While most defenses only have one or two of these, an easy way to get around that is Asherah Pole. IMO there still isn't enough green/purple synergy to see many kings/prophets splashes, and with Isaiah not protecting purple kings anymore it's much less likely to see Hezzy in a prophets deck. Prophets don't have a lot of innate ways to deal with artifacts (although Capture and Seize might see some play), so while you have to watch for DoN and the evil tri-brigade art killers it's a solid way to make sure that they can't just say no to whatever you play.

3. Anti-search
Signet Ring is good. I know it. You know it. Prophets players that don't already know it likely will by the end of the season. If you can get away with Nazareth in your deck, that's fantastic too (especially since it also stops Jonah).

4. Hard Counters
There are a couple hard counters to prophets specifically. Jezebel comes to mind immediately (especially as protect forts like Obadiah's Caves have somewhat fallen out of favor), and Withered Plant has a bit of a bonus against them.

So, my thoughts on an anti-prophets defense is something of a brown theme. Outsiders (brown/crimson) grabs Asherah Pole and Golden Calf, Jez banishes them when possible (possibly targeting one outside of battle and banding to Ahab for a play first), Jeering Youths plays first especially when APole is up. Maybe include the Leviathan/Job's Wife/Behemoth package as well. Include Signet Ring and Naz if your offense can get away with it, and you have the foundation for an all-around solid defense that does particularly well against a deck that'll likely see a fair bit of play this year.

That's just my brainstorm, though. What are your thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 12:11:08 PM by Bobbert »
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 10:43:17 AM »
0
I mean, that's pretty similar to a deck I was thinking about running any ways, so this gets a  :thumbup: :thumbup: from me!
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Offline Red

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 11:29:07 AM »
+1
Why are you assuming that green is fundamentally better than Throne?
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Offline Josh

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 11:32:20 AM »
+2
Sanballet and/or Lamentation of Rachel  ;)

On a more serious note, I want to address this quote more directly:

Prophets don't have a lot of innate ways to deal with artifacts (although Capture and Seize might see some play), so while you have to watch for DoN and the evil tri-brigade art killers it's a solid way to make sure that they can't just say no to whatever you play.

I can't imagine playing a prophets build that doesn't use the 2011 version of Zeke and a Crimson defense.  Babylonians received some legit meat to round out their characters, get a new toy for Nerg to play with (Seized By Babylon), and the flexibility afforded by the 2 Zeke DAEs has been validated time and again.  Not to mention there are now 2 characters that are both Babs and Assyrians and 4 Crimson/PG Bab magicians - so you get the easiest splash ever of Confusion.  Treasures of War is so easy to stash in Reserve when your defense plays Wages, Bab Seige Army can hit an Art, Forest Fire can hit Arts and be recurred, and Razor/Capture and Seize can too (if you are playing Isaiah).

TL;DR:  I wouldn't assume that a prophets deck can't hit Artifacts.

Why are you assuming that green is fundamentally better than Throne?

This.  Sam still needs to go.  Jonah/Habakkuk/Bab Merchants are great, but how are you going to get them in play (and keep them in play) before Throne gets what it needs?  Green is faster w/ PoC, but it's still not fast.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 11:51:07 AM »
0
TL;DR:  I wouldn't assume that a prophets deck can't hit Artifacts.

Good point. I still think Asherah Pole is good, although you may want to be discerning about when you use it (pulling it off Outsiders is particularly good).

Why are you assuming that green is fundamentally better than Throne?

I never said that. I'm just assuming that a lot of people will want to play with the new toys, and that people who want to know how to counter Throne have already learned (or at least have an idea). This is theorycrafting about what will likely be popular, not discussing how to beat a deck that we already know is good.
That said, I think that a defense like the one I suggested might not be terrible against Throne either, as long as your offense is fast enough to support it. Jeering Youths in particular is great, there's already idol synergy to throw in HHI, and you'll likely run Scattered and Lost Anointing anyway.
Perhaps the better question than "How to counter green" or "How to counter Throne" is "How to counter both"  :P
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 12:05:55 PM »
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Running Covenant with Death will counter just about anything, apart from Stars. There is currently no good way to blanket counter Star abilities. Yet.

Long story short, just use Flood Survivors. It's an offense that can work under CwD and it has an easy reset button (ANB). Seems good to me.
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Offline Red

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 12:09:38 PM »
+2
Running Covenant with Death will counter just about anything, apart from Stars. There is currently no good way to blanket counter Star abilities. Yet.

Long story short, just use Flood Survivors. It's an offense that can work under CwD and it has an easy reset button (ANB). Seems good to me.
I think flood survivors is secretly the best deck in this coming meta. Prove me wrong people.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 12:13:35 PM »
0
Running Covenant with Death will counter just about anything, apart from Stars. There is currently no good way to blanket counter Star abilities. Yet.

Yeah, I saw the other thread too. That's a bit unfortunate, but ah well.

I think flood survivors is secretly the best deck in this coming meta. Prove me wrong people.

I shall prove you wrong with my mediocre piloting of a flood deck!
Out of curiosity, are you still thinking Gold to be the best pairing for it?
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Offline Josh

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 12:22:56 PM »
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TL;DR:  I wouldn't assume that a prophets deck can't hit Artifacts.

Good point. I still think Asherah Pole is good, although you may want to be discerning about when you use it (pulling it off Outsiders is particularly good).

I agree, Asherah Pole is awesome.  It's especially nice paired with Disagreement Over Mark, which is blanket CBN when Asherah Pole is up (regardless of what offense you are facing).

Queen Maachah/Gates of Jerusalem is a less-competitive but more-fun way to play Asherah Pole
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Offline Red

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Re: Countering Green
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 12:24:03 PM »
0
Running Covenant with Death will counter just about anything, apart from Stars. There is currently no good way to blanket counter Star abilities. Yet.

Yeah, I saw the other thread too. That's a bit unfortunate, but ah well.

I think flood survivors is secretly the best deck in this coming meta. Prove me wrong people.

I shall prove you wrong with my mediocre piloting of a flood deck!
Out of curiosity, are you still thinking Gold to be the best pairing for it?
Possibly, Crimson actually looks like a solid pairing as well. Egypt appears to be a tutor for ark. The biggest gains for Flood survivors are Book of the Covenant, Faith, and Joseph's Silver cup to be honest.
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