Author Topic: Water to Wine (Read 4313 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** October 02, 2008, 04:56:37 PM »

Sorry this question is not about music.

Water to Wine: Holder may search draw pile for all blue brigade set-aside cards and put them in play. •

Is any part of this card mandatory or is it all optional? Do you have to search for all blue set-asides or can it be just one? Do you have immediately put them in play or can you hold them?

What if you have 1 hero in battle and 1 hero in territory and you play this card and get 6 blue set-asides? If you set-aside the hero in territory and the hero in battle, what happens to the rest of your set-asides?

Lastly, I know the current rule is that you can only play one set-aside at a time but this card sounds like you play all of them at the same time. Could this be an exception in a special ability that lets you play multiple set-asides on the same guy?

SirNobody · « **Reply #1 on:** October 02, 2008, 06:03:00 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 02, 2008, 04:56:37 PM

Is any part of this card mandatory or is it all optional?

It's all optional.

Quote

Do you have to search for all blue set-asides or can it be just one?

I believe that "may" in an ability with multiple targets makes it an "up to" type of thing, so I believe you can just get some of them, although I'm not certain about that.

Quote

Do you have immediately put them in play or can you hold them?

You have to immediately put them into play.

Quote

What if you have 1 hero in battle and 1 hero in territory and you play this card and get 6 blue set-asides? If you set-aside the hero in territory and the hero in battle, what happens to the rest of your set-asides?

The extra set-asides would be played (which normally you couldn't do if you don't have a character to play it on but because they are played by a special ability this is an exception) and since there is no one for them to activate on they would do nothing and be discarded.

Quote

Lastly, I know the current rule is that you can only play one set-aside at a time but this card sounds like you play all of them at the same time. Could this be an exception in a special ability that lets you play multiple set-asides on the same guy?

When an ability causes multiple other abilities to activate the new abilities are activated one at a time in the order they were targeted. (The classic example of this is The Second Seal).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

galadgawyn · « **Reply #2 on:** October 02, 2008, 08:26:20 PM »

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It's all optional.......You have to immediately put them into play.

I think in the first statement you are indicating that you can either do or not do the whole ability but the second statement is saying that if you do the first part then you have to do the second? My question was along the lines of could I search and not play them or could I play just some of them. I think that would be true if the ability could be read: "Holder may search draw pile for all blue brigade set-aside cards and may put any of them in play."

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The extra set-asides would be played (which normally you couldn't do if you don't have a character to play it on but because they are played by a special ability this is an exception) and since there is no one for them to activate on they would do nothing and be discarded.

Ok, but what about cards like Altar of Burnt Offering? I understand that it was ruled you had to have a hero of matching brigade for the offering enhancements to activate on. Can you play them without a matching hero and have them do nothing and be discarded? I would think these would be the same situation.

Altar of Burnt Offering: "You may play up to two offering Enhancements during your preparation phase. They activate immediately, and then are discarded."

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When an ability causes multiple other abilities to activate the new abilities are activated one at a time in the order they were targeted. (The classic example of this is The Second Seal).

Yeah, I was just hoping that this could be an exception so it would be a more useful promo. Since it was printed before the rule change maybe we could errata it to say "Holder may search ...... and may simultaneously put them in play." I'm allowed to dream.

The Schaef · « **Reply #3 on:** October 02, 2008, 08:56:10 PM »

When you have multiple abilities with a single "may" covering them all, and no language tying one to a "cost" (usually the word "to" as in "do X to do Y"), you can do any, or all, or none of the abilities on the card.

The second part of Altar of Burnt Offering (in a completely different sentence, even) explains what happens to the cards played in accordance with the first sentence.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** October 02, 2008, 09:12:43 PM »

Ok, so if I have 9 blue set-asides in my deck, can I search for just 7 and then play just 3?

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The second part of Altar of Burnt Offering (in a completely different sentence, even) explains what happens to the cards played in accordance with the first sentence.

That doesn't seem to answer whether I can use the Altar to play 2 Teal offerings with no Teal hero in order to get my hand down to less cards.

SirNobody · « **Reply #5 on:** October 02, 2008, 09:25:13 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 02, 2008, 08:26:20 PM

I think in the first statement you are indicating that you can either do or not do the whole ability but the second statement is saying that if you do the first part then you have to do the second?

Yes, it is a general rule of optional search abilities that once you choose to look you have to get the cards out. So once you go looking you have to pull out at least one set-aside,

Quote

Ok, but what about cards like Altar of Burnt Offering? I understand that it was ruled you had to have a hero of matching brigade for the offering enhancements to activate on. Can you play them without a matching hero and have them do nothing and be discarded?

I believe so.

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 02, 2008, 09:12:43 PM

Ok, so if I have 9 blue set-asides in my deck, can I search for just 7 and then play just 3?

Yes if you have nine you could choose to only retrieve seven. No you could not choose to play only 3 of those 7. Taking the card out of the draw pile and playing it are the same ability so they can't have different sets of targets. (There is no "search for set-asides and add them to your hand" abilities on Water to Wine so you cannot search for set-asides and have them end up in your hand.)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

SirNobody · « **Reply #6 on:** October 02, 2008, 10:43:55 PM »

Hey,

Okay, so I've been talking about this and have realized I was wrong in one of my statements. A play an enhancement ability can only target a card if there is a character for that card to activate on. Altar of Burnt Offerings is a play an enhancement ability, so if you do not have a teal character in your territory, then you cannot play the enhancements. Water to Wine is in part a Play an Enhancement ability (the part that pulls the cards out of the draw pile and puts them in play) so you must have a character to play the set-asides on in order to be able to retrieve it. As long as you have at least one character that the set-asides can be played on, you can target as many set-asides as you want. But as soon as all of the characters that the set-asides can be played on are targeted by one of those set-asides and are thus set-aside there is then no character to play additional set-asides on so any remaining set-asides would not be valid targets (even though they were when they were originally targeted) and would remain in the draw pile.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

The Schaef · « **Reply #7 on:** October 02, 2008, 10:48:09 PM »

I disagree that "search" and "play" are the same ability. I cannot search with Jacob and I cannot play with False Peace. Having searched for those cards, however, you are required to play as many from your hand as you are legally able to do, meaning, once you have set aside your final blue Hero, you have done as much as you are "able" with that ability.

TimMierz · « **Reply #8 on:** October 02, 2008, 10:54:14 PM »

The cards retrieved from Water to Wine do not include a "go into hand" part. They go directly from deck to play, and so if they cannot go to play, they cannot leave the deck.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #9 on:** October 02, 2008, 10:56:01 PM »

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Having searched for those cards, however, you are required to play as many from your hand as you are legally able to do,

I thought you said that the may would apply to the seperate abilities so that you don't have to play them after you search for them.

What if I had Wasting Disease active?
Wasting Disease: "Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement."
Could I then search but not be able to play them?

galadgawyn · « **Reply #10 on:** October 02, 2008, 11:00:53 PM »

Quote

The cards retrieved from Water to Wine do not include a "go into hand" part. They go directly from deck to play, and so if they cannot go to play, they cannot leave the deck.

Do you first search for all the set-asides and then put them in play or do you search for the first set-aside and put in play and then search for the second and so forth?

If it is the second then I agree with you but if it is the first (which I think it is) then I think you're wrong. I thought that you complete the abilities one at a time in order. The situation changes later in the battle but that doesn't matter. When the search is conducted it is legal to get them all out. I can't think of other abilities where you say "it is legal now but looking at the tactical situation it won't be later so you can't do that".

Additionally, if it is two seperate abilities then I think there is a "go into hand" part. Many search cards don't say to put in hand; that is implied in the ability.

The Schaef · « **Reply #11 on:** October 02, 2008, 11:08:39 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on October 02, 2008, 10:54:14 PM

The cards retrieved from Water to Wine do not include a "go into hand" part.

Search cards that do not include a "go into hand" part:
Battle Prayer
Zaccheus
Ethiopian Treasurer
Lost Coin Found
Spiritual Protection
King Amon
Morg
Zeresh
Urijah the High Priest
Nicolas of Antioch

I'm wondering what you do with these cards that say only to search, if you do not add them to your hand. Do you search for them, and having found them, just go ahead and shuffle the deck with the cards still in there?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** October 02, 2008, 11:11:40 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 02, 2008, 11:08:39 PM

I'm wondering what you do with these cards that say only to search, if you do not add them to your hand. Do you search for them, and having found them, just go ahead and shuffle the deck with the cards still in there?

Very good point... "Yeah I searched for it, now what?"

TimMierz · « **Reply #13 on:** October 02, 2008, 11:21:52 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 02, 2008, 11:08:39 PM

I'm wondering what you do with these cards that say only to search, if you do not add them to your hand. Do you search for them, and having found them, just go ahead and shuffle the deck with the cards still in there?

Many of those have "Play As" abilities. Zaccheus has a Play As of "Holder may search draw pile for one Fortress card and put it in play." Lost Coin Found has a Play As of "Holder may search discard pile for any good enhancement worth 3/3 or less and put it hand." Those like Zeresh that don't, should.

The Schaef · « **Reply #14 on:** October 02, 2008, 11:47:48 PM »

Suggesting that the default location for cards not placed directly into play is one's hand.

SirNobody · « **Reply #15 on:** October 03, 2008, 01:41:40 AM »

Hey,

Some search abilities do have an "add to hand" component that is not written on the card. But not all search abilities have that implied "add to hand" component. Confusion is a search ability, but if cards in that player's draw pile are protected from discard you wouldn't add the card Confusion searches for to the player's hand instead. The implied "add to hand" component only applies to cards that do not specify what to do with the cards that are searched for. Water to Wine specifies what to do with the cards searched for so the implied "add to hand" component does not apply in this case.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

SirNobody · « **Reply #16 on:** October 03, 2008, 01:49:25 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 02, 2008, 10:56:01 PM

What if I had Wasting Disease active?
Wasting Disease: "Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement."
Could I then search but not be able to play them?

If you have Wasting Disease active you could still look through the draw pile (the search part which still works), but you could not get any cards out of it (the play an enhancement part that doesn't work).

Quote from: galadgawyn on October 02, 2008, 11:00:53 PM

Do you first search for all the set-asides and then put them in play or do you search for the first set-aside and put in play and then search for the second and so forth?

You first search and target all of the set-asides (at least all of the set-asides you wish to play). You then play them one at a time from your draw pile.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

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Author Topic: Water to Wine (Read 4313 times)

galadgawyn

Water to Wine

SirNobody

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galadgawyn

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The Schaef

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galadgawyn

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SirNobody

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SirNobody

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The Schaef

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TimMierz

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galadgawyn

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galadgawyn

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The Schaef

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Lamborghini_diablo

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TimMierz

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The Schaef

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SirNobody

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