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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 09:52:38 AM

Title: Unsuccessful
Post by: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 09:52:38 AM
Spoiler: Unsuccessful (hover to show)

Errata (from the ORCID): At any time, you may discard this card to negate the last good Enhancement played in battle.

In a recent game against someone who knows the game better than I, he told me that when Unsuccessful is used as an enhancement (rather than as an artifact) it doesn't discard itself, and just acts as a negate last with 0/6. However, the errata on the card makes no distinction between when it is used as an artifact and when it is used as an enhancement.
Does Unsuccessful discard itself when used as an enhancement? If not, should the errata be updated to reflect this?
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: uthminister [BR] on October 30, 2018, 10:04:17 AM
The errata seems pretty clear. When you use it, the cost of using it is discarding it. It would make more sense to me if it just stayed in battle or in Artifact pile even after it was used since it has a "use once" restriction.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Gabe on October 30, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
It seems like that errata was given with only the artifact side in mind. It does make it necessary to discard the Enhancement to use it, but I’m not certain it allows it to be used during SI which would be sad. Seems like we should revisit that.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: The Guardian on October 30, 2018, 11:08:15 AM
It also doesn't really work as an Artifact (as written) unless you're able to activate it in battle (after a GE has been played).

Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: goalieking87 on October 30, 2018, 11:37:27 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on October 30, 2018, 11:08:15 AM
It also doesn't really work as an Artifact (as written) unless you're able to activate it in battle (after a GE has been played).

Is this because the “last good enhancement played in battle” when if it was activated during prep phase would have been in a prior turn? (And it wouldn’t change targets when you move into the battle phase)
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 12:23:45 PM
Oh dear. I may have accidentally killed called attention to the shortcomings of a card that's pretty important for one of my decks.

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on October 30, 2018, 10:04:17 AM
The errata seems pretty clear. When you use it, the cost of using it is discarding it. It would make more sense to me if it just stayed in battle or in Artifact pile even after it was used since it has a "use once" restriction.

The "use once" isn't in the errata, just on the card. Or are you saying that's how you'd prefer it worked based on the original wording?

Quote from: Gabe on October 30, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
It seems like that errata was given with only the artifact side in mind. It does make it necessary to discard the Enhancement to use it, but I’m not certain it allows it to be used during SI which would be sad. Seems like we should revisit that.

Why wouldn't it? Does needing to discard to negate stop it from working in SI? In that case, wouldn't that apply to cards like Scapegoat as well, or using the Gam's Speech-type enhancements in battle? I've always understood those to work in SI, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote from: The Guardian on October 30, 2018, 11:08:15 AM
It also doesn't really work as an Artifact (as written) unless you're able to activate it in battle (after a GE has been played).

Wait, really? I thought the "last played" meant that it was constantly updating, so it would still work if you activated it the turn before.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: RedemptionAggie on October 30, 2018, 12:49:51 PM
The problem with the original wording has to do with Artifacts being used when activated by default, and Unsuccessful not overriding that.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 01:21:44 PM
I thought that the "At any time" in the errata overrode that.

I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand as deeply as possible.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: RedemptionAggie on October 30, 2018, 01:38:27 PM
It does. The ORIGINAL wording works as an Enhancement but not as an Artifact (under the current rules). The errata works as an Artifact but maybe not as an Enhancement.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Watchman on October 30, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: Gabe on October 30, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
It seems like that errata was given with only the artifact side in mind. It does make it necessary to discard the Enhancement to use it, but I’m not certain it allows it to be used during SI which would be sad. Seems like we should revisit that.

I’ve used the errata version several times as an enh in battle during SI. I don’t see why it can’t be used during SI since the REG states the following:

“The player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule) and the ability containing that effect.”
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Kevinthedude on October 30, 2018, 01:52:53 PM
Quote from: Watchman on October 30, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: Gabe on October 30, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
It seems like that errata was given with only the artifact side in mind. It does make it necessary to discard the Enhancement to use it, but I’m not certain it allows it to be used during SI which would be sad. Seems like we should revisit that.

I’ve used the errata version several times as an enh in battle during SI. I don’t see why it can’t be used during SI since the REG states the following:

“The player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule) and the ability containing that effect.”

The reason for Unsuccessful potentially not working in SI is because it doesn't negate the ability just by being played, it requires the player to activate an manual ability first. Similar to why G Speech can't be played from hand during SI.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
Again, I'll call attention to Scapegoat, which requires banishing it to negate evil enhancements. I've used this in special initiative for years, including at Nats this year. Have I been playing it incorrectly?
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Kevinthedude on October 30, 2018, 02:06:25 PM
Quote from: Bobbert on October 30, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
Again, I'll call attention to Scapegoat, which requires banishing it to negate evil enhancements. I've used this in special initiative for years, including at Nats this year. Have I been playing it incorrectly?

Scapegoat isn't manually activated. It's not discarding/banishing that prevents something from being played during SI, it's the fact that the player has to take an optional action in between playing the card and actually interrupting the ability.
Title: Re: Unsuccessful
Post by: Watchman on October 30, 2018, 02:42:04 PM
Quote from: Kevinthedude on October 30, 2018, 01:52:53 PM
Quote from: Watchman on October 30, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: Gabe on October 30, 2018, 10:17:35 AM
It seems like that errata was given with only the artifact side in mind. It does make it necessary to discard the Enhancement to use it, but I’m not certain it allows it to be used during SI which would be sad. Seems like we should revisit that.

I’ve used the errata version several times as an enh in battle during SI. I don’t see why it can’t be used during SI since the REG states the following:

“The player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule) and the ability containing that effect.”

The reason for Unsuccessful potentially not working in SI is because it doesn't negate the ability just by being played, it requires the player to activate an manual ability first. Similar to why G Speech can't be played from hand during SI.

Then where in any current rulebook is this spelled out? I know that’s how Gam’s Speech has worked but this needs to be clarified somewhere if it isn’t already. There are other players I know who have tried to use a card like Gam’s Speech during SI. The same argument could be made for Word of their Testimony and Spirit of Fear during SI.
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