Author Topic: Transgressors  (Read 527 times)

Offline jbeers285

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Transgressors
« on: May 01, 2019, 06:37:58 PM »
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Identifier: Generic, Holds a single-brigade brown curse.
* Play this character
SA: if played from hand, you may reserve a card from hand to activate a brown curse from reserve on this card.

Will the SA allow you to put a multi brigade curse here as long as one of the brigades is brown? If yes can it stay active multiple turns? Would it only be active for that first turn?
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2019, 06:43:54 PM »
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From my reading of that card, and my understanding of it, I believed it can only hold a single-brigade brown curse based upon what the modifier reads, and that the ability ties in with the modifier.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2019, 10:17:37 PM »
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One thing I don't understand is how you hold a single-brigade curse as an active artifact.  Artifacts, even if they are curses, don't have brigades. 

Logically, it seems to me that Transgressors should hold single-brigade Brown curses the way old Storehouse or Musician's Chambers hold enhancements.  And I'd further argue that you could activate any Brown curse (even multi ones like Broken Covenant or CWD) on Transgressors via its special ability - even if it is already holding a single-brigade curse.

I'm not trying to start a debate where their shouldn't be one.  I'm really not.  But the "Holds" identifier is kinda tricky when the cards you want to hold are DACs, which have one side as an Art and one side as an EE.  Because there are cards that hold active Arts and there are cards that hold unused EEs. 
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2019, 10:30:33 PM »
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Curses always maintain their brigade, they just aren't "cards" of their brigade when activated as an Art.

Holds is being updated to clarify that anything that specifically holds Covs and Curses holds them as Artifacts, not Enhancements.

Activate an Artifact is being updated to clarify that if you activate something where there's a holds, the activated Art has to qualify for the holds.

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2019, 06:28:38 AM »
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So does that mean an activated curse counts still has a brigade and would count towards something that counts neutral brigades, like affliction of job?

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2019, 07:04:51 AM »
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Holds is being updated to clarify that anything that specifically holds Covs and Curses holds them as Artifacts, not Enhancements.

Activate an Artifact is being updated to clarify that if you activate something where there's a holds, the activated Art has to qualify for the holds.

Are those updates that are actually the rules and our paperwork hasn’t caught up or are those things that are currently being updated still?
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2019, 01:10:18 PM »
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Holds is being updated to clarify that anything that specifically holds Covs and Curses holds them as Artifacts, not Enhancements.

Activate an Artifact is being updated to clarify that if you activate something where there's a holds, the activated Art has to qualify for the holds.

Are those updates that are actually the rules and our paperwork hasn’t caught up or are those things that are currently being updated still?

They're the rules, and have been for a while. Transgressors and friends are just the impetus for adding them.

I'm not sure when the first card that held Curses/Covs was (Pithom or BotC is my guess, depending on exact wording), but the holds ruling goes back to Ithamar being limited to activating Tabernacle Arts on the Tabernacle.

So does that mean an activated curse counts still has a brigade and would count towards something that counts neutral brigades, like affliction of job?

No. You only "see" the brigade when you refer to it as a Curse, because it's not a Curse if it doesn't have the Enhancement part.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 01:13:48 PM by RedemptionAggie »

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2019, 01:31:53 PM »
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So it only has a brigade if a card targets it as a curse, then it's a artifact and a curse, otherwise it's an artifact?  This seems needlessly convoluted and confusing...

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2019, 01:33:30 PM »
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I think part of the confusion stems from Curses and Covenants being special titles for a certain set of dual alignment cards.

For example, when we look for evil brigades, we don't look at the Brown brigade on King Saul if he's been played as a Hero or the Black brigade on Foreign Sword if it's been played as a good enhancement.

However, if a card said "Discard a Brown dual-alignment character" then it could discard King Saul even if he's been played as a Hero because it's targeting his default state (both Brown EC and Purple Hero).

This is why a card that says "Take a City" can take a City regardless if it's been played as a Site or Fortress and likewise a card that says "Discard a Covenant/Curse" can discard those regardless if they have been played as an Artifact or Enhancement.

We just don't have a special name for dual alignment characters (or dual alignment enhancements for that matter) that allow them to be targeted regardless of which way they are played.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
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Sort of related question: is Transgressors genderless? as far as I am aware, there isn't a new ORCID out with PoC cards in it, otherwise I'd check there.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2019, 02:25:35 PM »
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My understanding is that they will be genderless just like other mixed groups (Complainers, Angry Mob, etc).

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Offline Watchman

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2019, 02:40:59 PM »
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Definitely not genderless. I tried making that argument/suggestion with Gabe when it was originally spoiled and it was shot down. Since the image is apparently of males (even though one of them looks like a female) the card depicts male humans and thus not genderless.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2019, 03:30:36 PM »
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Definitely not genderless. I tried making that argument/suggestion with Gabe when it was originally spoiled and it was shot down. Since the image is apparently of males (even though one of them looks like a female) the card depicts male humans and thus not genderless.

I found the post where you asked the question about Transgressors being genderless, but I see no such reply from Gabe. Do you recall where he posted that?
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2019, 04:00:06 PM »
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He replied via PM.

Quote from: Watchman on October 08, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
By the way, I don’t know if you or any other elders saw my reply post about the Transgressors card but the book reference is incorrect and should be Hosea. Also, I’d highly suggest adding “genderless” to the indentifier as it would be a benefit and appropriate given the nature of the card.

Thanks, Derek. I saw that and then forgot about it by the time I got to my computer later that day. I've made the correction now.

I'm not sure genderless makes sense here. The only character that's clearly depicted in the art is a male. While the passage is definitely referring to a group of people which could be both male and female, the examples cited are all male. It seems like a bit of a stretch to apply genderless here.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2019, 04:45:11 PM »
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Yeah, he remembered when I brought it up. We are discussing among the Elder team. Part of the challenge is that the artwork comes from a larger piece which definitely depicts both males and females. Stand by for official ruling...
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Offline Josh

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2019, 01:01:51 PM »
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However, if a card said "Discard a Brown dual-alignment character" then it could discard King Saul even if he's been played as a Hero because it's targeting his default state (both Brown EC and Purple Hero).

I would disagree with this.  If a card said "Discard a dual alignment character", then yes, it can discard King Saul whether he is played as purple or brown.

But as soon as you say "Discard a Brown dual-alignment character", I don't see how it can target a purple King Saul in play.  He's a dual alignment character, and he's brown at face value, but when he's played as a purple hero he's no longer "at face value".

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I guess I don't understand why, if an ability like "Discard a Brown dual alignment character" can target a purple King Saul, why can't an ability that discards evil enhancements discard a curse played as an Art?
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Online Kevinthedude

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2019, 02:14:04 PM »
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However, if a card said "Discard a Brown dual-alignment character" then it could discard King Saul even if he's been played as a Hero because it's targeting his default state (both Brown EC and Purple Hero).

I would disagree with this.  If a card said "Discard a dual alignment character", then yes, it can discard King Saul whether he is played as purple or brown.

But as soon as you say "Discard a Brown dual-alignment character", I don't see how it can target a purple King Saul in play.  He's a dual alignment character, and he's brown at face value, but when he's played as a purple hero he's no longer "at face value".

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I guess I don't understand why, if an ability like "Discard a Brown dual alignment character" can target a purple King Saul, why can't an ability that discards evil enhancements discard a curse played as an Art?

I agree with this. The card in that example would be looking for a target that is [Brown] [Dual Alignment] [Character] and a Hero King Saul in play does not fit the requirement of being brown.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Transgressors
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2019, 03:15:47 PM »
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If we had a special name for cards that were both a Hero and Evil Character at face value (let’s use the name “Dual” as an example) then that would be the same thing as “Curse,” “Covenant” or “City” – i.e. a proper name for a card that is two different card types at face value.

Because we say that cards can reference face value attributes of Curses (Pithom holds a gold Curse, Jericho holds a black Curse) even though those brigades don’t count as being in play, then to be consistent a card that said “Discard a Brown Dual” would be able to discard King Saul even if he is a Hero because it is referencing his face value state (a “Dual” with Brown and Purple brigades). Likewise, a card that said “Discard a White City” would be able to discard Bethlehem even if it is played as a Fortress (and thus has no brigade counting as in play).
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