Author Topic: Tournament play? (Read 1678 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** June 30, 2018, 05:15:58 PM »

If during a tournament a player looks at the top card of his deck at the end of his turn and puts the card back without using a special ability. What would you do as the tournament host?

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** June 30, 2018, 05:50:16 PM »

Quote from: Tournament Guide

Any violation of rules deemed deliberate (such as taking to
much time during a turn, or intentionally losing a game)
can result in a warning or a forfeiture of a game.

Any player found deliberately cheating will be eliminated immediately from the tournament.
-
A player repeatedly found cheating at a
Redemption tournament may be banned from attending future sanctioned
tournaments at the discretion of Cactus Game Design Inc.
-
All questioned concerning deliberate cheating shall be handled according to John 7:51.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:10:52 PM »

So would you consider that deliberately cheating?

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:14:57 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 06:10:52 PM

So would you consider that deliberately cheating?

If it was done deliberately.

Red Wing · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:19:56 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 06:10:52 PM

So would you consider that deliberately cheating?

Absolutely. I would probably give a warning first and if the problem persisted issue a forfeiture.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:20:37 PM »

There are a couple possibilities to rule out first. Like did the player think it was his turn to draw for some reason? Or did the player already know what was on top of his deck via a reveal and was double checking? If it was on purpose I think a warning and shuffling of deck is a good option for a first offense.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:35:32 PM »

I am positive it was done deliberately. It was the end of the players turn he had already drawn and there was no reason to look at the top card of his deck. There was also no other cards in the deck so there was no reason to shuffle. It was towards the end of the game.

Quote from: Red Wing on June 30, 2018, 05:50:16 PM

Quote from: Tournament Guide

Any player found deliberately cheating will be eliminated immediately from the tournament.

So are we supposed to follow the rule above or just give a warning?

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:47:24 PM »

The tournament guide gives the host the discretion to give a warning before going directly to a DQ.

Cheating is cheating, but clearly some forms are more serious than others. Although I don't know the full circumstances and situation of this particular game, that doesn't seem like a major infraction and as a judge, I probably would have started with a warning. However, if the knowledge of that card did have a direct affect on the outcome of the game, then I could also see grounds for a forfeiture with a second violation resulting in disqualification.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:52:23 PM »

It was during a multiplayer game the forfeit wouldn't have made any difference because there was only one round being played. So you're saying cheating is cheating but some cheating is okay and only deserves a warning unless it had a direct impact on the game? The player admitted to looking at the top card of his deck when he shouldn't have.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2018, 06:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 06:52:23 PM

It was during a multiplayer game the forfeit wouldn't have made any difference because there was only one round being played. So you're saying cheating is cheating but some cheating is okay and only deserves a warning unless it had a direct impact on the game? The player admitted to looking at the top card of his deck when he shouldn't have.

I think the warning is more about determining player intent. If there's a new player who accidentally cheats or a player who frequently players a different card game and a habit from that game causes them to accidentally cheat, then I'd give a warning. If a player admitted to blatantly looking through their deck and they knew full well it was cheating I would DQ them from that event at minimum.

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:04:28 PM »

If something was "okay" then there would be no need for a warning.

Again, without knowing the full details, it's hard to see how that could impact the game in such a way that a disqualification would be merited.

That warning would also extend to other events in the tournament so even if MP was only one round, if the player repeated that action in a different event, that would be grounds for DQ.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM »

Okay so let's put it this way. If a player has been playing for numerous years and knows the rules. Is it deliberately cheating to pick up the top card of your deck and look at it just because you want to? Can you at any time look at the top card of your deck without any special ability allowing you to do so, and if someone does look at the top card of their deck on purpose just because they want to and admits to it does this call for disqualification? Or just a warning?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:32:27 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM

Is it deliberately cheating to pick up the top card of your deck and look at it just because you want to?

Yep.

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM

Can you at any time look at the top card of your deck without any special ability allowing you to do so?

Nope.

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM

If someone does look at the top card of their deck on purpose just because they want to and admits to it does this call for disqualification?

If they have full knowledge that their action is cheating and did it anyway, they are ruining the event they are a part of for everyone else so yes I would DQ them.

If this were a small event and/or it was a player new to the Redemption game/community I would give them a warning.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:33:28 PM »

Thanks

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:41:44 PM »

When I say "details" I'm talking about the current state of the game at that moment.

Did the knowledge of that card directly lead to the outcome of the game changing in the player's favor? If yes, I would rule that player forfeits the match. However, it's a bit more complicated in a multi-player game because that player forfeiting could favor one opponent more than the other opponents. There are many things to consider, which is why the tournament guide gives the host discretion to start with a warning before going directly to disqualification.

You mentioned it was the last card left in his deck so theoretically he could have looked through his discard pile (and obviously he knows what is in hand, territory, etc) so if he knew what cards he put in his deck, he probably knew what the card was already. I'm NOT saying he was right to confirm what he thought, but it's difficult to come up with a scenario in which it changes the outcome of the game, which is why (given the information I know) I believe I would have started with a warning had I been the judge.

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:44:23 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 30, 2018, 07:32:27 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
Is it deliberately cheating to pick up the top card of your deck and look at it just because you want to?

Yep.

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
Can you at any time look at the top card of your deck without any special ability allowing you to do so?

Nope.

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 07:20:25 PM
If someone does look at the top card of their deck on purpose just because they want to and admits to it does this call for disqualification?

If they have full knowledge that their action is cheating and did it anyway, they are ruining the event they are a part of for everyone else so yes I would DQ them.

If this were a small event and/or it was a player new to the Redemption game/community I would give them a warning.

I absolutely agree with the first two points.

On the third point, I would use the impact on the game as the determining factor between warning and DQ. kevinthedude would use event size and player experience. Neither criteria is wrong IMO, it's simply a difference of opinion.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2018, 07:51:05 PM »

Ok 😁 so Kevin says absolutely no cheating if you're a veteran to the game and know the rules. But if you're new we might give you some leeway. You say no matter if you're a veteran to the game and know the rules or if you're new to the game as long as it didn't directly impact the game it's okay to cheat a little. Got it 😉

The Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** June 30, 2018, 08:38:22 PM »

kevinthedude told you what you wanted to hear so you thank him for his reply. I shared my opinion, but it wasn't what you wanted to hear so I get attitude. Got it.

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** June 30, 2018, 08:47:57 PM »

I would handle it exactly as Justin described.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2018, 09:01:30 PM »

Interesting because I don't feel like that was handled that way last year during Nationals. I guess maybe we all learn from our mistakes.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** June 30, 2018, 09:03:50 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on June 30, 2018, 09:01:30 PM

Interesting because I don't feel like that was handled that way last year during Nationals. I guess maybe we all learn from our mistakes.

That's exactly what we did. There was an warning giving earlier for an infraction and a DQ given later for a different infraction.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #21 on:** June 30, 2018, 09:36:37 PM »

I've locked this thread. Jeremystair received an answer and opinions on said answer. Thread was beginning to go downhill quickly

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Author Topic: Tournament play? (Read 1678 times)

TheHobbit13