Author Topic: Special Inish, etc.  (Read 378 times)

Offline Watchman

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Special Inish, etc.
« on: April 11, 2019, 08:53:46 PM »
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Had this scenario come up in a game just now and I wanted to verify if it was played correctly.

Was rescuing with a lone hero.  Opponent blocked with a lone EC.  Battle was in statemate by the numbers.  I played Speak with Power (withdrawal all ECs).  From SI he played Joseph in Prison (ITB and banish all cards in battle).  I now had SI so I played Snake Into Fire (ITB and banish an evil enhancement).  SwP now reactivated and my opponent had SI once again as he was being withdrawn.  He then played Seized by Rioters to ITB and set aside 2 heroes for 2 turns (my hero and one I had in territory).  I set them aside but then played Gam's Speech from territory (which was originally played off of EC Peter, so it was CBN).  He was going to play Devourer to interrupt and discard all good enhs in battle but I told him he could not since he already had his chance to interrupt/negate the original removal (SwP) and Snake Into Fire.

Looking back I realize that the battle should have ended with my Snake Into Fire being played.  From my understanding he wouldn't have had the opportunity to play Seized by Rioters to ITB again as he already tried that and I negated his ITB ability with Snake Into Fire.

1) Is my third paragraph correct?

2) What exactly is the rule with SI and ITB or negating the removal?  I always thought that you had one chance to stop the removing ability, but if I stopped his interrupt or negate then he could try and negate my enh that stopped his negate.  And can it go back and forth with negates or ITB or not?  Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 09:08:53 PM »
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Quote
Special Initiative
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and a completing effect of an opponent’s
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an effect of an opponent’s ability, would
leave that player with no character in battle when the effect has completed, they have Special
Initiative.

When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal and additional abilities or effects
waiting to activate (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with their
character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or
negate both the effect causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule)
and the ability containing that effect. If the card with the removing effect was already
removed from play due to one of its effects, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative
by an Enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

This only occurs once per completion of an effect of an opponent’s ability. If a removing
effect is negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or
interrupt effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing
effect reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative.

The last line is the relevant part to your question. Basically, you only get one shot to interrupt/negate with SI. However, if your "one shot" is negated, it triggers "a separate instance of SI" so you basically get "one more shot." And yes, this can go on until neither player has any negate options left.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 09:11:07 PM »
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So based upon this please help me understand, given the scenario above, how this should have played out.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 09:11:30 PM »
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Your opponent would have had SI to play Devourer and thus negate/discard SwP and SiF, which would have triggered SI for you to negate JiP.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 09:32:34 PM »
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But how would he have a second chance to interrupt/negate SiF when he already played SbR to interrupt it, then I negated and discarded SbR with Gam’s Speech?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 09:35:34 PM »
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Because by negating SbR you re-trigger SI. This is the scenario that the italicized section of the REG quoted above references.

The important part to note here is that because SbR interrupts the battle, it isn't only targeting SiF, it's also targeting SwP
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 09:38:13 PM »
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If the card you used to negate the battle winning condition gets negated it is as if you never dealt with SI. You now have a chance to deal with SI.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 09:51:40 PM by jbeers285 »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 09:46:49 PM »
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But Justin said you have one shot, and if that gets negated you have one more shot. So in this instance he stopped SwP with JiP. Then I stopped his JiP with SiF. He then stopped SiF with SbR. By him playing SbR that gave him “one last shot” to stop SiF. But since I played Gam’s Speech from territory how can he have yet another shot at targeting SiF again with Devourer? How would this reactivate SI when he already had his one shot at stopping SiF?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 09:49:10 PM »
+1
But Justin said you have one shot, and if that gets negated you have one more shot. So in this instance he stopped SwP with JiP. Then I stopped his JiP with SiF. He then stopped SiF with SbR. By him playing SbR that gave him “one last shot” to stop SiF. But since I played Gam’s Speech from territory how can he have yet another shot at targeting SiF again with Devourer? How would this reactivate SI when he already had his one shot at stopping SiF?

Because you negated all his other shots so they "never happened".

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 10:01:45 PM »
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It's not a maximum of 2 shots. Each shot is a separate instance of SI, which allows another shot if this one is negated.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2019, 10:17:40 PM »
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Ok so when would an opponent not be able to stop it, only when he or I play an enh that’s CBI or CBN?
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Offline goalieking87

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2019, 10:46:06 PM »
+1
I might be mistaken, but I think your confusion has more to do with rulings in Sealed deck.

Disregarding enhancements that you might get from booster packs, the negate enhancements in the I/J starter decks read something to the effect of “negate the last good (or evil) enhancement played in battle”

So...scenario:
Player A attacks with Samson

Player B blocks with Shaphat for initiative and played Sin in the Camp to withdraw all Heroes, causing SI

Player A plays Samson’s Strength to negate and discard the last evil enhancement. Regular initiative passes back to player B

Player B plays Bad Dealings which negates the last good enhancement and causes Sin in the Camp to work, giving SI to player A

Player A has Family Bond which negates and discards the last evil enhancement, but cannot play it because any enhancements played have to target the ability that is causing special initiative (Sin in the Camp). However Family Bond only targets the last evil enhancement which was Bad Dealings.

In your example, all of the cards being used to interrupt don’t just interrupt (or negate) the last enhancement as in the examples above, but they are interrupt the battle enhancements which interrupt the special ability removing the character from battle.

In REG under Interrupt:

Quote
Special Conditions
  ● The phrase “interrupt the battle” includes interrupting the following abilities if they were activated on cards in the current battle:
1 all active abilities
2 abilities with effects that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
3 abilities on the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent

Offline jbeers285

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2019, 10:51:23 PM »
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Player 1 plays (A) discard a hero
Player 2 plays (B) negate the last enhancement
Player 1 plays (A2) negate the last enhancement to negate (B) and make (A) return to a working state so player 2 has initiative.

Player 2 cannot play a card to negate or interrupt (A2) they must deal with (A) so interrupt the battle will not work since it only interrupts the last enhancement played by an opponent and on going abilities. Negate the last won’t work because it also doesn’t deal with (A).  Player 2 needs a Negate an evil enhancement or something else to target (A).

Instaposted *goalieking
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 11:01:31 PM »
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Player 1 plays (A) discard a hero
Player 2 plays (B) negate the last enhancement
Player 1 plays (A2) negate the last enhancement to negate (B) and make (A) return to a working state so player 2 has initiative.

Player 2 cannot play a card to negate or interrupt (A2) they must deal with (A) so interrupt the battle will not work since it only interrupts the last enhancement played by an opponent and on going abilities. Negate the last won’t work because it also doesn’t deal with (A).  Player 2 needs a Negate an evil enhancement or something else to target (A).

Interrupt should work, since it also interrupts abilities removing characters from battle.

From the REG
Quote
The phrase “interrupt the battle”includes interrupting the following abilities if they were activated on cards in the current battle:
1 all active abilities
2 abilities with effects that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
3 abilities on the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent
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Offline jbeers285

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2019, 11:02:49 PM »
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Ahh thanks
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Offline thejambi

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2019, 11:04:37 PM »
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Player 1 plays (A) discard a hero
Player 2 plays (B) negate the last enhancement
Player 1 plays (A2) negate the last enhancement to negate (B) and make (A) return to a working state so player 2 has initiative.

Player 2 cannot play a card to negate or interrupt (A2) they must deal with (A) so interrupt the battle will not work since it only interrupts the last enhancement played by an opponent and on going abilities. Negate the last won’t work because it also doesn’t deal with (A).  Player 2 needs a Negate an evil enhancement or something else to target (A).

Instaposted *goalieking

Looking at the REG, "Interrupt the battle" should work, as it says it includes interrupting... "abilities with effects that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle" in addition to the last enhancement played (if it was played by opponent). Is that right?

Update: Looks like I was right, and slow :)
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2019, 11:17:40 PM »
+1
Here's a scenario where you don't get SI back. Assume both players have 1 character on their side of the battle.

Player A: Plays an EE to remove your Hero.

Player B: Plays an interrupt, d3, play next. Using the play next a character removal GE is played, creating SI for player A.

Player A: Negates player B's removal card. Now we're back to player A's removal of the Hero kicking in, but your interrupt/negate was not negated so you don't get SI again.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2019, 09:50:05 PM »
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Thanks for all of the replies.

On a related question I always wondered about Devourer. I know if you play it immediately following  a card like SwP is played it interrupts SwP and discard it and thus the withdrawal fizzles out. But what if it’s played later on during battle and there have been other abilities that have completed.

For example, I have inish and play Unified Language and band in a hero from my opponent’s side, and one hero from my side who then bands to another hero. All of the heroes’ abilities resolve. My opponent now has inish and plays Devourer which interrupts and discards UL. Does this mean all of my heroes are kicked out of battle as a result (and as the result of cascade negate), or no since an interrupt only affects the last ability of opposite alignment played? What if I had played an enh that discarded one of my opponent’s ECs and I still had inish and then played UL and banded in those heroes? Would the discard also be interrupted or no since it wasn’t the last ability of opposite alignment played?
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2019, 10:31:56 PM »
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Quote
Does this mean all of my heroes are kicked out of battle as a result (and as the result of cascade negate), or no since an interrupt only affects the last ability of opposite alignment played?

The bolded part is wrong.

"Interrupt the battle" interrupts the last card played if it was played by your opponent.

"Interrupt an/all Enhancement(s)" interrupts any/all Enhancements, even if they weren't the last.

Devourer interrupts the Enhancements, not the battle. So Devourer would undo UL in the first scenario, and the discard and UL in the second.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Special Inish, etc.
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2019, 10:11:17 AM »
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Got it. Thanks for all of the replies. 👍
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