Author Topic: Shuffle and Set-Aside (Read 45106 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #50 on:** August 23, 2008, 12:31:32 PM »

Becuase in battle if you shuffled the character the weapon is discarded becaus it follows the rules of other enhancements in battle, but if a set aside is played in battle the weapon should be discarded beucase weapons follow normal enhancement rules in battle. Now I would argue that the weapon only is discarded when the set aside is played in battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #51 on:** August 23, 2008, 01:04:29 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 23, 2008, 12:31:32 PM

beucase weapons follow normal enhancement rules in battle.

Except for the fact that they dont. If they did, they would be discarded after battle.

The Schaef · « **Reply #52 on:** August 23, 2008, 01:50:39 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 23, 2008, 12:31:32 PM

Becuase in battle if you shuffled the character the weapon is discarded becaus it follows the rules of other enhancements in battle, but if a set aside is played in battle the weapon should be discarded beucase weapons follow normal enhancement rules in battle.

Do you think that a Hero should reset to face value when set-aside, since he resets to face value when shuffled?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 23, 2008, 09:46:04 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 23, 2008, 01:50:39 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 23, 2008, 12:31:32 PM
Becuase in battle if you shuffled the character the weapon is discarded becaus it follows the rules of other enhancements in battle, but if a set aside is played in battle the weapon should be discarded beucase weapons follow normal enhancement rules in battle.

Do you think that a Hero should reset to face value when set-aside, since he resets to face value when shuffled?

No.

The Schaef · « **Reply #54 on:** August 23, 2008, 10:11:27 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 23, 2008, 09:46:04 PM

Quote
Do you think that a Hero should reset to face value when set-aside, since he resets to face value when shuffled?
No.

So why does it make sense to you that a Hero would keep gained abilities when set-aside but lose them when shuffled, but to keep a weapon when set-aside but lose it when shuffled is "silly" and "needs fixed"?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #55 on:** August 24, 2008, 02:43:56 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 23, 2008, 10:11:27 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 23, 2008, 09:46:04 PM
Quote
Do you think that a Hero should reset to face value when set-aside, since he resets to face value when shuffled?
No.

So why does it make sense to you that a Hero would keep gained abilities when set-aside but lose them when shuffled, but to keep a weapon when set-aside but lose it when shuffled is "silly" and "needs fixed"?

That isn't what we are talking about I was reffering to your post about weapon class enhancements behaving like regular enhancements in battle. So basically what you saying is that they do behave like regular enhancements sometimes but other times they do not?

I really don't want my weapon to be discarded when it is shuffled it doesn't make sense with all the other rules for weapons. And I don't like the idea of making rules that don't benifit or hurt the game that is basically making rules for the sake of making rules. Every time a person makes a rule they have to be able to explain it. This seems to be "it is shuffled becuase that's the rule" that isn't enough for me I want the game of redemption to go above and beyond that point I want people to fully understand why it does that.

And why make ANB more powerful then it is? HT was a mistake to make IMO when you have a card like ANB just begging to be played on a prophets.

So I am going to ask why are weapons discarded when the character is shuffled?

The Schaef · « **Reply #56 on:** August 24, 2008, 03:11:33 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 24, 2008, 02:43:56 PM

That isn't what we are talking about I was reffering to your post about weapon class enhancements behaving like regular enhancements in battle.

Well, since we're talking about what happens to weapons when they are set-aside (and not "in battle" as you keep referring to), and since I already told you my previous post was not addressing that issue, I don't see what the problem is.

Quote

I really don't want my weapon to be discarded when it is shuffled it doesn't make sense with all the other rules for weapons.

Sure it does. The rules for weapons give several other instances where the weapon is discarded when something or another happens to the Hero. The rules for weapons are also consistent with the rules for the way characters keep and lose changes from face value in various situations. I see no reason why that doesn't make sense; it works with other rules for weapons, it works for rules regarding other Enhancements apart from the special things that weapons do, and it works with rules regarding other changes from face value.

Quote

And I don't like the idea of making rules that don't benifit or hurt the game that is basically making rules for the sake of making rules.

Well, since that's not what's happening, and that's been explained to you multiple times, then I guess you should be feeling better about this whole matter by now. So why aren't you?

Quote

Every time a person makes a rule they have to be able to explain it. This seems to be "it is shuffled becuase that's the rule" that isn't enough for me I want the game of redemption to go above and beyond that point I want people to fully understand why it does that.

When a character is sent to the draw pile from the Field of Battle, Enhancements that were on him are discarded by game rule. Weapons act like regular Enhancements under these circumstances. So if you can understand why a regular Enhancement would be discarded, but you can't understand why a weapon would be discarded, what else am I supposed to say to you?

Quote

And why make ANB more powerful then it is? HT was a mistake to make IMO when you have a card like ANB just begging to be played on a prophets.

Since A New Beginning shuffles ALL cards in the Field of Play, weapons are shuffled in just like everything else. So can you explain to me why the rule for weapons makes this card more powerful?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #57 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:05:35 PM »

"When a character is sent to the draw pile from the Field of Battle, Enhancements that were on him are discarded by game rule. Weapons act like regular Enhancements under these circumstances. So if you can understand why a regular Enhancement would be discarded, but you can't understand why a weapon would be discarded, what else am I supposed to say to you?"

When a character is sent from battle to set aside what happens to the enhancements in battle?

"Since A New Beginning shuffles ALL cards in the Field of Play, weapons are shuffled in just like everything else. So can you explain to me why the rule for weapons makes this card more powerful?"

Good point.

The Schaef · « **Reply #58 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:33:26 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 24, 2008, 10:05:35 PM

When a character is sent from battle to set aside what happens to the enhancements in battle?

Did we not already have the discussion about how weapons do not behave exactly like regular Enhancements all the time?

When a character with gained abilities is sent from battle to set aside, what happens to the gained abilities?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #59 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:05:14 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 24, 2008, 10:33:26 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 24, 2008, 10:05:35 PM
When a character is sent from battle to set aside what happens to the enhancements in battle?

When a character with gained abilities is sent from battle to set aside, what happens to the gained abilities?

They are set aside? A weapon isn't a gained ability though.

The Schaef · « **Reply #60 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:38:38 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 10:05:14 AM

They are set aside? A weapon isn't a gained ability though.

Right but I explained to you earlier that they share some commonalities. In particular, you said it made sense that a character would hold on to an ability that he gained if set aside, but that he should lose it if shuffled. So why shouldn't a character hold on to a weapon that he "gained", or more accurately, is retaining, if set aside, and then lose it when shuffled?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:50:18 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 25, 2008, 10:38:38 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 10:05:14 AM
They are set aside? A weapon isn't a gained ability though.

Right but I explained to you earlier that they share some commonalities. In particular, you said it made sense that a character would hold on to an ability that he gained if set aside, but that he should lose it if shuffled. So why shouldn't a character hold on to a weapon that he "gained", or more accurately, is retaining, if set aside, and then lose it when shuffled?

Imo he should but the weapon should shuffle in because it was gained as you see and the gained ability resets... He doesn't have the weapon attached when you draw him for example so he loses the gained ability. Why does there need to be a rule that when a character is shuffled the weapon he is holding is discarded.

The Schaef · « **Reply #62 on:** August 25, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 10:50:18 AM

Imo he should but the weapon should shuffle in because it was gained as you see and the gained ability resets.

It goes away. Gained ability goes away, weapon goes away. You do not get to shuffle Gathering back into your deck when a gathered Hero is shuffled.

Quote

Why does there need to be a rule that when a character is shuffled the weapon he is holding is discarded.

There doesn't. It just folds in with the general rule that when a character is shuffled, ANY Enhancement that is on them gets discarded.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #63 on:** August 25, 2008, 03:02:47 PM »

"It goes away. Gained ability goes away, weapon goes away. You do not get to shuffle Gathering back into your deck when a gathered Hero is shuffled."

I thought you do shuffle it in with the set aside character.

One question.
If I played Reach of desperation then a play a set aside to set aside my character in battle what happens to reach?

The Schaef · « **Reply #64 on:** August 25, 2008, 03:34:27 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 03:02:47 PM

I thought you do shuffle it in with the set aside character.

So if a gathered Captain gets shuffled, you actually fish Gathering out of your discard pile and put it back in your draw pile? Really?

Quote

If I played Reach of desperation then a play a set aside to set aside my character in battle what happens to reach?

Do you have any other characters in battle to move the card to?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #65 on:** August 25, 2008, 05:54:01 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 25, 2008, 03:34:27 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 03:02:47 PM
I thought you do shuffle it in with the set aside character.

So if a gathered Captain gets shuffled, you actually fish Gathering out of your discard pile and put it back in your draw pile? Really?

Quote
If I played Reach of desperation then a play a set aside to set aside my character in battle what happens to reach?

Do you have any other characters in battle to move the card to?

1. No I ment if it was shuffled while set aside.

2. No

I am basically reversing the argument. If the weapon is not discarded when it is set aside why is it discarded when the character is shuffled? What makes the weapon go along with the character when it is set aside but not when it is shuffled? Besides the rule. The rules should make sense with each other.

In Him,

H13

The Schaef · « **Reply #66 on:** August 25, 2008, 06:08:07 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 05:54:01 PM

I am basically reversing the argument. If the weapon is not discarded when it is set aside why is it discarded when the character is shuffled?

For the same reason all other Enhancements are discarded when the character is shuffled, and for the same reason that gained abilities are lost when the character is shuffled.

Quote

The rules should make sense with each other.

The rules DO make sense with each other, you will see that if you read above what I have written multiple times now. What you are asking is to create an ADDITIONAL rule that weapons get shuffled with a character that conflicts with all the other standard rules for cards. If you want the rules to make sense with each other, why do you want to make weapons EVEN MORE different than before, for no particular reason that I can see?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 25, 2008, 07:33:10 PM »

"The rules DO make sense with each other, you will see that if you read above what I have written multiple times now. What you are asking is to create an ADDITIONAL rule that weapons get shuffled with a character that conflicts with all the other standard rules for cards. If you want the rules to make sense with each other, why do you want to make weapons EVEN MORE different than before, for no particular reason that I can see?"

So weapons are treated as Gained abilities in all situations??

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #68 on:** August 25, 2008, 07:39:20 PM »

No because if you capture paul when he is gathered and I use iaredemption he is still gathered. Weapons stay in battle and tada die. (one situation)

The Schaef · « **Reply #69 on:** August 25, 2008, 07:44:15 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on August 25, 2008, 07:33:10 PM

So weapons are treated as Gained abilities in all situations??

No. You're missing the point here. I said they had things in common. The rules about discarding the Weapon are not the exceptional rules, they correlate with the rules for regular Enhancements. It is the rules that let the Weapon STAY that make it different. What you are asking is why don't we have a rule for Weapons that lets it do ANOTHER thing different from normal in order to make it LESS different. Do you see what I'm saying?

Example: Bob is in battle, Gathered, with a regular Enhancement, and Enhancement placed on him, and a Weapon he is holding.

If he is discarded, the regular Enhancement is discarded, the placed Enhancement is discarded, the Weapon is discarded, and the Gathered-ness goes away. Do you see how everything dies in the discard pile?

If he returns to territory, the regular Enhancement is discarded, but the placed Enhancement and the Weapon stay because they have special rules, and the Gathered-ness stays. Do you see how he has retained the things he has picked up?

If he is shuffled, the regular Enhancement is discarded, the placed Enhancement is discarded, the Weapon is discarded, and the Gathered-ness goes away. Do you see how everything dies when you return him to deck?

If he is set aside, the regular Enhancement is discarded, the placed Enhancement I believe depends on what the ability is that placed it there, the Weapon stays and the Gathered-ness stays. Do you see how he retains the things he has picked up?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #70 on:** August 25, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »

Thank you for explaining that to me

( You are very patient) One last question why does the gathering stay if the character is captured and put into raiders camp but the weapon is discarded?

The Schaef · « **Reply #71 on:** August 25, 2008, 08:45:57 PM »

Lost Souls can't hold weapons, it's not part of their card type.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 26, 2008, 08:38:30 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 25, 2008, 08:45:57 PM

Lost Souls can't hold weapons, it's not part of their card type.

It isn't a lost soul its a captured hero.

The Schaef · « **Reply #73 on:** August 26, 2008, 08:45:36 PM »

Captured characters also are not characters. Being in Raider's Camp doesn't change the answer, because still, only characters can hold weapons.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #74 on:** August 26, 2008, 08:58:17 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on August 26, 2008, 08:45:36 PM

Captured characters also are not characters. Being in Raider's Camp doesn't change the answer, because still, only characters can hold weapons.

So the Hero in raiders camp would lose his gatheredness?

News:

Author Topic: Shuffle and Set-Aside (Read 45106 times)

TheHobbit13

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

The Schaef

TheHobbit13