Author Topic: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.  (Read 9799 times)

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« on: November 23, 2008, 04:54:17 PM »
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Rescue attempt with K david with throne of david out. Blocked with E warden who uses his s.a.

Does david get to Draw before being captured?

Throne of David.
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Attributes: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Verse: I Kings 2:45 • Availability: Rock of Ages (Set 15)

E warden.
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gold • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may discard an evil gold Enhancement from hand to capture a human Hero in battle. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Egypt • Verse: Genesis 39:22 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 1)
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 05:34:11 PM »
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he gets to play and draw. Cause Throne is active before warden.
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Offline Tsavong Lah

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 05:44:25 PM »
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Hmm. Egyptian Warden's SA has to complete, so I feel like David would get to draw and only play an interrupt or negate though.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 05:45:08 PM »
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to the contrary, I think David's Throne has to complete, and therefore warden is on hold.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 05:53:22 PM »
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to the contrary, I think David's Throne has to complete, and therefore warden is on hold.

But David's Throne would not activate until after the Warden blocks. By then, the King is already captured. I am inclined to agree with Tsavong.
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 06:00:29 PM »
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I agree that "Blocks" means that the evil character needs to complete his ability.

Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 06:21:27 PM »
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Hmm. Egyptian Warden's SA has to complete, so I feel like David would get to draw and only play an interrupt or negate though.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 07:50:37 PM »
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E. Warden's SA has to complete before TToD ability can be completed.  Assuming only 1 purple Hero in battle, that Hero would have to interrupt/negate E. Warden before they could draw/play from TToD.  TToD has been triggered though so even if the rescuer cannot interrupt/negate, they still draw from TToD but they won't have a Hero to play an enhancement on.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 08:15:28 PM »
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E. Warden's SA has to complete before TToD ability can be completed.  Assuming only 1 purple Hero in battle, that Hero would have to interrupt/negate E. Warden before they could draw/play from TToD.  TToD has been triggered though so even if the rescuer cannot interrupt/negate, they still draw from TToD but they won't have a Hero to play an enhancement on.

You can only draw "when" you are blocked. The problem is you are no longer being blocked because King David is being captured. Why would you get to still draw?   "If blocked is different than"when" blocked.

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 08:38:41 PM »
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The EC blocks David and captures him.  You get to draw, or play an Enhancement, but if no Hero remains in battle on which the Enhancement can be played, you're only real option is to draw.

Offline Gabe

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 08:39:03 PM »
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You can only draw "when" you are blocked. The problem is you are no longer being blocked because King David is being captured. Why would you get to still draw?   "If blocked is different than"when" blocked.

The option to draw/play on TToD triggers when the evil character is presented in battle.

You can find the rulebook definition of a block here.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 08:55:27 PM »
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Musician, you are doing a great job keeping your grammar in check. Way to go! :)

And I see what you guys are saying, and now agree that you can only draw.
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2008, 09:12:19 PM »
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E. Warden blocks K. David.
E. Warden uses SA to capture K. David.
At this point K. Davids only option would be to play an Interrupt or Negate?
if so, Reach + AoCp   then draw for TToD?


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Offline DaClock

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2008, 09:39:16 PM »
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He gets to draw no matter what. Then you are dying so you can interrupt/negate. However, after you interrupt you've played an enhancement and can't play another for TToD.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 09:47:20 PM »
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He gets to draw no matter what. Then you are dying so you can interrupt/negate. However, after you interrupt you've played an enhancement and can't play another for TToD.

AoCP was played as part of Reach's SA. I would think the play next for TToD would be separate and should still be allowed (if chosen).

Incidentally, wouldn't TToD activate immediately after the capture to allow a draw, but no play next (no hero in battle), then Reach could be played per initiative, allowing AoCp to save the King?
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 10:38:11 PM »
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He gets to draw no matter what. Then you are dying so you can interrupt/negate. However, after you interrupt you've played an enhancement and can't play another for TToD.

What we are trying to figure out is the timing of TToD in this scenario.

Ben, are you suggesting that after E. Warden is presented you can draw for TToD then wait for E. Warden SA to complete? I wouldn't think you are suggesting this, but I want to clarify what I'm reading in / into your quoute.
I think what we have are 2 distinct and seperate actions happening.
1. I think you either have to Draw/may play next for TToD when a blocker is presented
or 2. blocker is presented and SA completes then TToD kicks in to Draw/may play next.

AoCP was played as part of Reach's SA. I would think the play next for TToD would be separate and should still be allowed (if chosen).

Incidentally, wouldn't TToD activate immediately after the capture to allow a draw, but no play next (no hero in battle), then Reach could be played per initiative, allowing AoCp to save the King?

This latter scenario makes more sense, as this is essentially what happened in my game with RR, we just weren't sure about the timing of the Draw/may play next part.


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Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2008, 07:49:55 AM »
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Yeah, that's what I was saying all along.
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2008, 08:25:36 AM »
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AoCP was played as part of Reach's SA. I would think the play next for TToD would be separate and should still be allowed (if chosen).

Incidentally, wouldn't TToD activate immediately after the capture to allow a draw, but no play next (no hero in battle), then Reach could be played per initiative, allowing AoCp to save the King?

This is the correct interpretation of the timing.  Throne triggers immediately, assuming no Hero left in battle, then when completed, players do an initiative check and find the Hero losing by removal and therefore having initiative.

So the only part I'm not 100% certain of, is whether Throne would allow you to play an interrupt in this scenario, or whether you have to wait for the initiative check.

Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2008, 11:11:49 AM »
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Here is a question.
Is TToD waiting for a Blocker to be presented to essentially interrupt the battle to complete the TToD SA then allow the blocker to complete it's SA?
I wouldn't think so, but figured I would ask.

So the only part I'm not 100% certain of, is whether Throne would allow you to play an interrupt in this scenario, or whether you have to wait for the initiative check.

Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Attributes: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play • Verse: I Kings 2:45

Are the draw and play OT enhs able to be seperated?  I understand with may I can choose to do one, both or neither, but if I decide to do both shouldn't I draw and play regardless?
If I am being discarded by the ECs SA, it completes first to fulfill the defintion of block, when does TToD kick in? before I check for inish, since TToD says "When your purple brigade King is blocked,.....".
OR   If I am being discarded by the ECs SA, it completes first to fulfill the definition of block, check for inish at this time, I have it and I must play an ITB or Negate to keep from being discarded, then draw and play and OT enhs if a blocker is still present?

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Offline Gabe

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2008, 12:05:57 PM »
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Here is a question.
Is TToD waiting for a Blocker to be presented to essentially interrupt the battle to complete the TToD SA then allow the blocker to complete it's SA?
I wouldn't think so, but figured I would ask.

TToD does not have an interrupt ability so it doesn't interrupt.  :)

Are the draw and play OT enhs able to be seperated?  I understand with may I can choose to do one, both or neither, but if I decide to do both shouldn't I draw and play regardless?

Everything after the word may is optional.  You may draw X.  You may play an O.T. Enhancement.  You may choose to do both.

If I am being discarded by the ECs SA, it completes first to fulfill the defintion of block, when does TToD kick in? before I check for inish, since TToD says "When your purple brigade King is blocked,.....".
OR   If I am being discarded by the ECs SA, it completes first to fulfill the definition of block, check for inish at this time, I have it and I must play an ITB or Negate to keep from being discarded, then draw and play and OT enhs if a blocker is still present?

You're correct that the EC's SA must complete first to fulfill the definition of a block.  TToD will kick in immediatley after the EC's SA has comleted. 

In the example given you may or may not be in battle when TToD completes.  Since you're being removed by the EC's SA you can interrupt/negate.

If your interrupt/negate results in you controling a purple brigade Hero in battle after the EC's SA has completed then TToD kicks in and you may draw/play/or both.  The draw/play doesn't rely on the EC remaining in battle, so even if you've played Reach/AoCp, TToD would allow you to draw X and play something like Glittering Sword (on a character in territory) or Prosperity.

If you're unable to interrupt/negate and your Hero is removed leaving you no purple character in battle, then TToD allows you to draw X and play, but when you try to play there is not character to play on.  By game rule you can only play enhancements on a character of matching brigade so you don't get to play anything.

The only part I'm unsure about is whether or not TToD checks conditions when it's triggered or when it takes effect or both.  It's possible to change the conditions between the time the EC enters battle and the time TToD "resolves".  The Hero in battle might change so they're purple but not a king or the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play might differ.  I'm leaning towards a one time check when it's triggered but I'm not positive.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2008, 10:26:59 PM »
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You can only draw "when" you are blocked. The problem is you are no longer being blocked because King David is being captured. Why would you get to still draw?   "If blocked is different than"when" blocked.

The option to draw/play on TToD triggers when the evil character is presented in battle.

You can find the rulebook definition of a block here.

I see no reason why you would get to draw later if  you do not draw exactly when the evil character blocks like the card says.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 07:49:06 AM »
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You can only draw "when" you are blocked. The problem is you are no longer being blocked because King David is being captured. Why would you get to still draw?   "If blocked is different than"when" blocked.

I see no reason why you would get to draw later if  you do not draw exactly when the evil character blocks like the card says.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say should happen.

When an EC enters the Field of Battle, a "block" has been initiated (per rulebook). However, the SA of the EC must complete immediately upon entering the FoB (per rulebook).

You will need to clarify your position and defend it with the rulebook or REG if you oppose the consensus decision.
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Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 11:53:05 AM »
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well so what i thought of is i think that combo would only be good for a speed deck. cause if you draw a card then you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good enh. but if you use it with a speed deck you have a 10/90 chance of getting a good enh 90 being you. so in my word i would only  use that combo in a speed deck

Austin =o)

um, I don't follow your logic...

It isn't a 50/50 chance that he will draw a good eh.  It depends on the deck.  And you can't have a 90% chance; that would mean that he would have 54 good enhancements in a 60 card deck. LOL

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2008, 02:06:04 PM »
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I don't even see how this applies to the ruling...
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2008, 03:01:22 PM »
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well so what i thought of is i think that combo would only be good for a speed deck. cause if you draw a card then you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good enh. but if you use it with a speed deck you have a 10/90 chance of getting a good enh 90 being you. so in my word i would only  use that combo in a speed deck

Austin =o)

um, I don't follow your logic...

It isn't a 50/50 chance that he will draw a good eh.  It depends on the deck.  And you can't have a 90% chance; that would mean that he would have 54 good enhancements in a 60 card deck. LOL

umm the whole point of a speed deck is to get 5 of your oponents lost souls befor he does in that case  you would need good enh so in-order to do that you would  need good enh now what im saying is that you have a 50/50 chance of getting a good enh in a regular deck am i not corect. so  what im saying is that you would have more luck getting good enh from a speed deck cause  it hase more good enh.

Austin=o)
No you aren't correct.
56 card deck = 7 ls, 3-4 Artifacts, 2 sites, and 8 doms. That is 21 cards already.(almost 50%)  so thats 35 left. defense takes up half. 17 more. So thats 18 good cards. 6-8 of those would be heroes. so thats at max 12 GES.
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2008, 07:16:01 PM »
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You can only draw "when" you are blocked. The problem is you are no longer being blocked because King David is being captured. Why would you get to still draw?   "If blocked is different than"when" blocked.

I see no reason why you would get to draw later if  you do not draw exactly when the evil character blocks like the card says.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say should happen.



What I was trying to say was this: I think  that you have to respond to the trigger right when it is triggered or you cant use the ability. The proposal condtridicts this by saying you can draw after  king David is captured. I am saying that exactly when the EC blocks then you draw the card play next and his sa actives, because it seems like the act of blocking is a game action that occurs when you present the ec in battle then separetly the special ability completes which means the trigger from Throne of David would kick in before the special ability.  That is just how I see it. (I know I am wrong, but I need to know why/ what part I am wrong about)

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2008, 07:24:00 PM »
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I see.

Basically, the SA of any character entering the Field of Battle must complete before any trigger can activate.
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2008, 07:32:22 PM »
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What I was trying to say was this: I think  that you have to respond to the trigger right when it is triggered or you cant use the ability.

That is exactly what is happening.

Quote
The proposal condtridicts this by saying you can draw after  king David is captured.

Right, because the Evil Character has to enter battle in order to trigger Throne.  Presenting an EC activates his ability, it is one single event.  There is no gap between the playing of a card and the activation of a card, and it has been intended to be ruled that way consistently for at least three years now, dating back to the rule changes about playing Dominants and the downfall of the "human action".

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2008, 09:39:46 AM »
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I see.

Basically, the SA of any character entering the Field of Battle must complete before any trigger can activate.

Then the trigger can never be activated because it says "when" not "if" blocked so you shouldn't get to draw.




What I was trying to say was this: I think  that you have to respond to the trigger right when it is triggered or you cant use the ability.
That is exactly what is happening.

If that was exactly happening then I wouldn't be able to draw a card.

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2008, 11:33:33 AM »
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Then the trigger can never be activated because it says "when" not "if" blocked so you shouldn't get to draw.

Now what you are missing is the fact that all of this is happening at the same moment (as if time was frozen). The EC enters battle during a RA, so he is "blocking." The fact that King David is not there does not change the fact that a "block" is taking place, especially since a negate card can still be played. I would equate it with the Every Man's Sword scenario, where the status of the RA/BC can change after all SAs complete. TToD is activated because a block has been initiated by the EC's presence. Until Battle Resolution comes into effect, the EC is still "blocking."
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2008, 12:30:12 PM »
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I have to agree with thehobbit. By the time my ability completes, David isn't in battle, so david isn't being blocked, cuz the battle is over (assuming no negates cuz they go against the normal flow of battle)
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2008, 12:39:35 PM »
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There would not even be a battle if your purple king is not being blocked. Egyptian Warden cannot enter the Field of Battle because he feels like it. The overarching scenario is still a RA by King David until the battle is resolved. Battle Resolution can not begin until all SA are completed.
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The Schaef

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2008, 12:56:33 PM »
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Then the trigger can never be activated because it says "when" not "if" blocked so you shouldn't get to draw.

That makes no sense.  The blocker blocks, the trigger activates.  It's that simple.  What is this "never can be" coming from?

Quote
If that was exactly happening then I wouldn't be able to draw a card.

Um, yes, you would.  The blocker blocks, and when that happens, you draw a card.

By the time my ability completes, David isn't in battle, so david isn't being blocked, cuz the battle is over (assuming no negates cuz they go against the normal flow of battle)

Warden captures a Hero in battle.  In order for it to capture a Hero in battle, David must be in battle, and Warden must be presented as the blocker.  You're overthinking the plumbing.

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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2008, 01:18:54 PM »
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I always overthink :-p
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Re: RR causing issues again. E warden VS Throne of David.
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2008, 11:47:16 PM »
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So basically Throne of David is triggered when eygptian warden enters battle but it cant take effect until his ability is completed but when his ability is completed I get to draw because throne room was triggered? Thanks you YMT, Shaef, and BrianGabe for your help and patience.  :)

 


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