Author Topic: Prince Moses?  (Read 9924 times)

Offline Arch Angel

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Prince Moses?
« on: September 29, 2008, 10:47:07 AM »
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Ok, so I waswondering if I can manipulate things to make Moses be considered royalty. A prince, to be exact.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%202:10;&version=31;
"[Moses' Mother] took him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son."

Following this, that Moses was adopted by the Pharaoh's daughter, that Moses should, in turn, be considered royalty?

Offline New Raven BR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2008, 02:21:10 PM »
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i guess so
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 02:47:39 PM »
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Certainly seems that way. I forgot all about that.
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Offline sk

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 03:44:55 PM »
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Yeah, that seems fair.  I'm fairly certain that the grandson of Pharaoh would be considered royalty.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 05:29:09 PM »
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wow, moses was alot of things...if he was nt, angel, and female as well, by golly, he'd be the best redemption hero evar.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2008, 05:34:57 PM »
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yeah I was about to say, why dont we just give moses the identifier "Everything related to heroes"

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 05:55:40 PM »
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Hey,

Moses does not have royal blood.  So if cactus decides to define royalty based on blood relations then no Moses would not qualify.  On the other hand if cactus decides to define royalty based on their position in society, he would qualify as royalty.  I believe cactus has been pretty tight with what constitutes royalty in the past, which suggests to me that the royal blood requirement is the more likely choice of cactus.

It can easily be justified either way so it really just depends on what cactus decides.

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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2008, 08:23:51 PM »
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To be from a ‘Royal Family’, they must be from a ‘Family’ and that the family must be ‘Royal’.  A strict use of the word ‘family’ includes physical parents, spouses, children, and grandchildren.  In other words, people who would be considered royalty if related to a King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Emperor, or Pharaoh.
From the REG, Looks like it has to be biological.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2008, 10:30:51 PM »
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The problem here is that if Moses is royalty, he would also need to be--by definition--an Eyptian.  If Moses is an Egyptian then Miriam Jochabed--his own mother--would ignore him all the time.  Do you really want to be responsible for that kind of family strife just to win a card game?

I didn't think so.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 08:44:17 AM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2008, 10:54:24 PM »
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The problem here is that if Moses is royalty, he would also need to be--by definition--an Eyptian.  If Moses is an Egyptian then Miriam would ignore him all the time.  Do you really want to be responsible for that kind of family strife just to win a card game?

I didn't think so.

So true.  :D

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 11:06:36 PM »
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Jesus talked about turning brother against brother, husband against wife, etc...  Do you really want to argue against Jesus?

Besides Miriam doesn't ignore Egyptians; Jochebed does.  Miriam ignores gold brigade.  From the Reg for Miriam:

"Hero ignores gold brigade."  C deck version   "Hero ignores gold brigade evil characters."  G deck version 

Which brings up the question can a hero ignore another hero?  What happens if they do?  There might be some interesting combos if you have gold heroes banding in Miriam.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 01:40:37 AM »
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I think he meant jechobed (sp?)
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Offline sk

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2008, 01:46:45 AM »
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The problem here is that if Moses is royalty, he would also need to be--by definition--an Eyptian.  If Moses is an Egyptian then Miriam would ignore him all the time.  Do you really want to be responsible for that kind of family strife just to win a card game?

I didn't think so.

But wouldn't Moses negate her ability (assuming you're not karazy enough to use the SA-less one)?

By the way... Prince of Egypt, anyone?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 01:49:14 AM by sk »
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2008, 01:51:41 AM »
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Yes assuming you don't use moses' awesome form, I mean... S.a.less.
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2008, 02:53:47 AM »
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Quote
To be from a ‘Royal Family’, they must be from a ‘Family’ and that the family must be ‘Royal’.  A strict use of the word ‘family’ includes physical parents, spouses, children, and grandchildren.  In other words, people who would be considered royalty if related to a King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Emperor, or Pharaoh.
From the REG, Looks like it has to be biological.
It says nothing about having to be biologically related, just related. So tell me, if my parents were simply my adoptive parents, they're still my parents, yes? I still become heir to whatever they have. Our faith works much in the same way, we're considered part of the family of Abraham, and heirs in the covenant made with Abraham, through our faith in messiah.

Why should Moses' relations be any different?

And I don't really think he would be Egyptian, because aren't identifiers such as that determined by the person's physical blood line? For example, an African-American child adopted by a Caucasian family would still be an African-American.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2008, 05:46:22 AM »
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Quote
physical parents
I assumed physical would be biological. AHHH *pokes your political correctness* ahem sorry. pet peeve.
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2008, 05:55:09 AM »
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AHHH *pokes your political correctness* ahem sorry. pet peeve.
rofl. Yeah, I don't personally like all the terms we give things so that no one will be offended, but at the same time I recognize that racism has been an issue in the past, and still is an issue today. So there are people who take offense at certain terms, and for very understandable reasons in some cases.

So like Paul said "I will do no thing to make my brother stumble" [/MASSIVE paraphrasing *brick'd*]


But yea, as to the point at hand; if someone is adopted into a family, they become an equal part of that family.
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 05:57:35 AM by Archangel withabunchofnumbersontheend »

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2008, 08:47:42 AM »
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Besides Miriam doesn't ignore Egyptians; Jochebed does. 

Fixed in the original.  Thanx.

Quote
Which brings up the question can a hero ignore another hero?

Shrug. I asked this earlier in another thread about Miriam's ability, and no one answered.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2008, 09:19:21 AM »
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If Moses is an Egyptian then Miriam Jochabed--his own mother--would ignore him all the time.  Do you really want to be responsible for that kind of family strife just to win a card game?

Well, we are talking about a woman who stuck her baby in a basket and chucked him in the river.  Talk about ignoring your kid.  You do that kind of thing today and you get Children's Services called on you and they ask all these questions and the word neglect floats around and it's just such a big hassle.

Offline golgotha

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 02:36:54 PM »
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Quote
To be from a ‘Royal Family’, they must be from a ‘Family’ and that the family must be ‘Royal’.  A strict use of the word ‘family’ includes physical parents, spouses, children, and grandchildren.  In other words, people who would be considered royalty if related to a King, Queen, Prince, Princess, Emperor, or Pharaoh.

Something else to consider, maybe more along the lines of a random thought, if Moses is royality, would that also make Aaron, Miriam, Jochabed royal as well for being related to him? Kinda doesn't make much sense for them to be royal...Guess the question probably has been asked about David vs King David...if he was royality before he became King...I could see a fantasy card or maybe this idea appearing in a future expansion, "Prince Moses" but for general ruling, I'd have to say no, Moses isn't royality. He may have been adopted into pharoh's family, but as for as doing anything politically with his position, he didn't do a lot...except for that whole killing an egyptian thingy...I could be wrong on this. I probably am.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 02:53:10 PM »
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Hey,

But yea, as to the point at hand; if someone is adopted into a family, they become an equal part of that family.
Sadly that is not always the case.

If you have to have egyptian blood to be egyptian, why wouldn't you have to have royal blood to be royal?

Tschow,

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 03:33:18 PM by SirNobody »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2008, 03:19:53 PM »
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If you have to have egyptian blood to be egyptian, why wouldn't you have to have royal blood to be royal?

I see the logic in that statement.  We obviously have to draw the line somewhere.  Maybe bloodline should be the place to draw that line.

Esther,  Bathsheba (and others) didn't have royal blood, but they're listed as royalty in the REG.  They became royalty, in this example, through marriage.  Using that logic a person could also become royal family through adoption.  Both are legally binding contracts to tie a person to a family in our society.
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Offline TimMierz

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2008, 03:29:18 PM »
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Doesn't your blood turn blue once you marry a king?
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2008, 03:41:24 PM »
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Hey,

Esther,  Bathsheba (and others) didn't have royal blood, but they're listed as royalty in the REG.

They may not have had royal blood "passed down" to them from their parents.  But they did pass royal blood down to thier kids.  So they did have royal blood in my eyes.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2008, 04:39:35 PM »
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Your eyes are weird and seem to be making strange leaps of logic.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2008, 07:44:54 PM »
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Watch out if Tim passes on any of his Redemption blood to his kids someday!

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2008, 07:51:09 PM »
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I disagree... if one is adopted, the intention is that you are treated as part of family. I really think Moses should be royalty.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2008, 08:16:11 PM »
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I disagree... if one is adopted, the intention is that you are treated as part of family.
~Marti

I agree with this statement. But when Moses killed the Egyptian, flees Egypt, liberates the Egyptians slaves, flees with them, and while the Egyptians are following them through the Red Sea (I hope its this Sea so I don't look stupid :prayer: ),I think he forfeits his royalty as an Egyptian.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 02:12:34 AM »
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That argument doesn't hold up because Saul is considered Royalty.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2008, 08:10:51 AM »
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Right. Saul totally destroyed the chance of any of his family becoming royalty except through marriage.

Offline Hedgehogman

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2008, 09:40:51 AM »
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Biblically and societally speaking, Moses was a prince, therefore he should be considered royalty. If adoption is suddenly disqualified, then we have to disqualify marriage as well. The Esther and Bathsheba examples were perfect. Bloodline cannot be the determining factor in deciding royalty.

Quote
If you have to have egyptian blood to be egyptian, why wouldn't you have to have royal blood to be royal?

 Because ethnicity and societal standing are two completely different things, that's why. One is directly and irrevocably tied to bloodlines, the other is not. Moses was obviously not an ethnic Egyptian, but very clearly was Egyptian royalty by adoption. Therefore he should be considered royalty for gameplay purposes.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2008, 03:49:46 PM »
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Too bad he never became a king, or else he'd be awesome for PTR ;)
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2008, 04:00:37 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2008, 04:07:30 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.
Cept he was second in line to become pharoah :-p so the first one would of had to died, and not had a son by then.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2008, 07:55:26 PM »
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That argument doesn't hold up because Saul is considered Royalty.

However, Saul did die as the king.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2008, 03:53:17 PM »
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wow, moses was alot of things...if he was nt, angel, and female as well, by golly, he'd be the best redemption hero evar.

He obviously can't be angel or female but there is some justification to have him be N.T.  He and Elijah did make an appearance in the NT.  Sure it is a bit of a stretch but hey it'd be fun.  Also there is the mention in Matthew of many of the dead saints arising and appearing to people.  Why that could be almost any hero from the OT!!!!!

Seriously though, I bet you could make a couple cool enhancement cards that would allow OT heroes in your discard pile to be brought into battle as a NT hero for one turn.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2008, 03:56:45 PM »
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Mr. Gawyn, have you ever read Redemption NJ?
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2008, 04:17:02 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.
Cept he was second in line to become pharoah :-p so the first one would of had to died, and not had a son by then.

No, even if that Pharoah had a son, Moses would have become king because he was older, and still technically in the royal family (by adoption).

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2008, 04:47:23 PM »
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Mr. Gawyn, have you ever read Redemption NJ?

Probably not.  What is that?

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2008, 05:06:33 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.
Cept he was second in line to become pharoah :-p so the first one would of had to died, and not had a son by then.

No, even if that Pharoah had a son, Moses would have become king because he was older, and still technically in the royal family (by adoption).
Issue, back then adopted kids (although viewed as part of the family) would be put in second if a blood line son was there, regardless of age.
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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2008, 09:26:11 PM »
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Mr. Gawyn, have you ever read Redemption NJ?

Probably not.  What is that?

A long-since unupdated Redemption website formerly run by the very funny Steve Braun and "Big Phil" Gaudette. http://ddicerc.tripod.com/id20.htm is the "Other Newsgroup FAQ", and the last question therein is your NT-Transfiguration position. :)

NOTE: Anything on that site from me should be disregarded. I was young and foolish then. (I'm old and foolish now.)
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2008, 09:28:45 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.
Cept he was second in line to become pharoah :-p so the first one would of had to died, and not had a son by then.

No, even if that Pharoah had a son, Moses would have become king because he was older, and still technically in the royal family (by adoption).
Issue, back then adopted kids (although viewed as part of the family) would be put in second if a blood line son was there, regardless of age.

Incorrect, especially since the adopted son would have been "in the family" first (more than likely at least, due to the age). I could be wrong, but my study of Egyptian heritage and royalty has led me to this conclusion. Pharoah's oldest daughter's child - adopted or not - would have been first in line for the throne if he was older and "in the family" before any of Pharoah's own sons.

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2008, 05:54:59 PM »
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Is there any official ruling on this? :)

Offline lightningninja

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Re: Prince Moses?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2008, 08:42:49 PM »
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I am fairly sure that scholars could more or less deduce that should Moses have stayed in Egypt and the killer of the slave driver never occured, he would have been Pharoah.
Cept he was second in line to become pharoah :-p so the first one would of had to died, and not had a son by then.

No, even if that Pharoah had a son, Moses would have become king because he was older, and still technically in the royal family (by adoption).
Issue, back then adopted kids (although viewed as part of the family) would be put in second if a blood line son was there, regardless of age.
Escept she never told anybody, did she? Wans't he considered brother, at least by his adopted brother?
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