Author Topic: Negating a CBN band  (Read 825 times)

Offline Mr.Hiatus

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Play Type 2
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Negating a CBN band
« on: June 11, 2019, 10:23:11 PM »
0
I RA with a hero. I play a N.T. banding card to band in Daniel (negate NT enhs band to a Daniel hero CBN) then Daniel bands to the rest of the Daniel band with Shadrach (band abilities on Daniel cards are CBI). So Daniel negates the N.T. banding enh that banded him in but his band is CBN so his his first hero he bands to stays but since Shadrach gives CBI to Daniel bands, I would think all 3 Shad Rack and Benny stay in battle. Would Daniel also stay or would I have to bring in Shadrach first to give CBI to my Daniel band, then band to everyone followed lastly by Daniel to negate the N.T. banding card but the Daniel band is now CBI so they stick and now N.T. enhs are all negated? 
Make America Play Type 2 Again.

Offline RedemptionAggie

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2978
    • -
    • South Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 10:39:20 PM »
+1
If Daniel is first, he negates the banding card prior to banding, so future characters should be functionally cascade prevented (rendering the CBI irrelevant). Leaving just the original Hero(es) and the banding card in battle.

If Shadrach is first and Daniel is last, Shadrach gets kicked out of battle and everything but the bands on Meshach and Abenego should be negated, but you have 3 more characters in battle.

Offline Kor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 713
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2019, 01:01:02 AM »
0
cascade prevented

Don't think I've heard that before.  Thinking about it though, it makes sense...albeit in that bizarre Redemption rules way.
Life is what you make of it.

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2019, 08:17:46 AM »
+2
If Daniel is first, he negates the banding card prior to banding, so future characters should be functionally cascade prevented (rendering the CBI irrelevant). Leaving just the original Hero(es) and the banding card in battle.

The NT banding enhancement is not bringing Rack/Shack/Benny into battle; Daniel is.  And Daniel is CBN. 

There should be no "cascade prevent" past a CBN ability. 

If Cascade Negate is going to continue to be a complex pain point for most players in the game of Redemption, we need to at least acknowledge that logically you can't Cascade through CBI and CBN abilities.
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Mr.Hiatus

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Play Type 2
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 08:40:30 AM »
0
Josh that’s my understanding of it and how I played it but I did think that there could be different scenarios depending on who is in battle first. Now we need more clarification lol
Make America Play Type 2 Again.

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 09:09:28 AM »
0
Daniel's negate of the NT Enhancement happens before the banding so wouldn't the other characters not even make it to the field of battle to activate their special abilities?
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline sepjazzwarrior

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
  • The best defense is a fast offense
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 09:27:42 AM »
0
Daniel still entered battle so his CBN banding still will activate, I just don't know if the cascade would "prevent" shadrach's ability, but I dont think it would, as there is nothing negating shadrach, just that the banding that brought in a different hero was negated, which I don't think should negate him

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 09:58:08 AM »
-1
Ironically, it's actually Daniel that is "preventing" his pals' abilities via "cascade prevent" in this scenario.

This is despite the fact that Daniel only negates NT enhancements, ECs, and Forts.  Daniel should never be able to prevent a hero's ability, much less Rack/Shack/Benny. 

Logic fail AND flavor fail  ;)
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline sepjazzwarrior

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2110
  • The best defense is a fast offense
    • -
    • Midwest Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 10:03:29 AM »
0
but there is nothing negating shadrach, Daniel CBN brings him in, so he is in battle no matter what.  the only ability that is negated is one that in no way brings him into battle, so I don't see how the cascade affects him

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 11:06:20 AM »
0
but there is nothing negating shadrach, Daniel CBN brings him in, so he is in battle no matter what.  the only ability that is negated is one that in no way brings him into battle, so I don't see how the cascade affects him

I think we are saying the same thing.  I agree that Shadrach is in battle no matter what. 

My second post was more a thought exercise down the "let's assume that everything is cascaded" path.  And my conclusion was that it was both illogical and unflavorful  ;)
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Mr.Hiatus

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1650
  • Play Type 2
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 12:06:06 PM »
0
Sooo...where are we with this?
Make America Play Type 2 Again.

Offline 777Godspeed

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Breathe redemption into wasted life, Breathe deep
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 12:10:09 PM »
+1
Cascade negates no longer happen.   ::)  Win - Win all the way around until you lose.

Godspeed,
Mike
Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery
When in doubt  D3.
I support Covenant Games.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 1793
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 12:16:08 PM »
+4
I keep almost writing a reply to this thread then remembering I've had this exact conversation about cascade negate interactions countless times before and wondering what the point is. Cascade needs to die.

Offline Cnakeeyes

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2019, 12:31:28 PM »
+1
I keep almost writing a reply to this thread then remembering I've had this exact conversation about cascade negate interactions countless times before and wondering what the point is. Cascade needs to die.
100% agree.

Offline Red

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 4644
  • It takes time to build the boat.
    • LFG
    • Southeast Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2019, 12:38:16 PM »
+2
When precedence trumps logic (ala Cascade negate), logic should win.
Ironman 2016 and 2018 Winner.
3rd T1-2P 2018, 3rd T2-2P 2019
I survived the Flood twice.

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2019, 01:03:11 PM »
0
Sooo...where are we with this?

Honestly, I don't know.  One of the many difficulties of Cascade Negate is that it is subjective and therefore can't really be described in objective terms.  Roughly speaking, it's "When an ability is negated, everything that happened and every card that entered play/battle as a result of the negated ability is negated, except for CBI and CBN abilities." 

If you would do a poll of the Elders, the following would probably get the most votes:

"The NT enhancement is in battle and is negated.  Daniel is returned to territory but his ability did activate.  The hero that Daniel banded to is in battle because Daniel is CBN.  That hero is negated because it was indirectly brought into battle by the NT banding enhancement, which was negated."
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2019, 02:52:43 PM »
0
What would the repercussions be if we said that instead of CBN/CBI sticking we said they don't stick?  So in this example, the only thing that sticks in Daniel's special ability.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12252
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2019, 03:16:48 PM »
0
What would the repercussions be if we said that instead of CBN/CBI sticking we said they don't stick?  So in this example, the only thing that sticks in Daniel's special ability.

The universe explodes...so yeah, can't do that... ;)
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Sean

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3675
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2019, 03:44:48 PM »
+1
What would the repercussions be if we said that instead of CBN/CBI sticking we said they don't stick?  So in this example, the only thing that sticks in Daniel's special ability.

The universe explodes...so yeah, can't do that... ;)
I feel like it is already exploded because of cascading negates.
May you prosper greatly!
Daniel 4:1b

Offline ChristianSoldier

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1598
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2019, 04:22:48 PM »
0
I will say I have very little against Cascade Negates in theory, I find that much of the time they make perfect sense to me... however I do find it strange that they can cascade through CBN abilities. If Daniel weren't CBN, it would make perfect sense to me that negating the ability that brought him in would kick everyone out... but since he is I find it kinda weird that the Negate Cascades through.

Basically I would think that the only reason why negating the first card negates the last card is because every ability between them was negated. Or to give an example, enhancement 1 brings characters 1 who brings character 2 in who brings character 3 into battle, and if enhancement 1 gets negated, that kicks character 1 out, who being kicked out, kicks out character 2, who being kicked out kicks character 3 out. But if Character 2 is CBN, then Character 3 wouldn't be kicked out, nor would he be affected in any way by the negate.

I realize how the ruling is worded, but I find it kinda strange, because my suggestion follows from the rules of negate, but the "Negate everything that can be traced back to it" doesn't seem to follow from the basic rules (at least once you include CBN), but seems kinda arbitrary.
If you are reading this signature, thank a physicist.

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2019, 05:08:33 PM »
+2
If Daniel weren't CBN, it would make perfect sense to me that negating the ability that brought him in would kick everyone out... but since he is I find it kinda weird that the Negate Cascades through.

You don't think it's strange that Daniel, a hero that negates NT enhancements, ECs, and Fortresses, ends up negating other heroes by "cascade negate" rules in the example above?



You don't think it's strange that an EE that negates draw abilities can negate the ability of the GE that Reach of Desperation played - but only if that GE was actually drawn by Reach?  Don't forget, that GE stays in battle!



Cards need to do what they say they do.  I can't even hope to explain either of these two scenarios to someone that I'm teaching the game to.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 05:12:21 PM by Josh »
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Crashfach2002

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2019, 10:47:38 PM »
+1
Good grief!  Glad I’m hosting and not judging.  My brain hurts and I don’t even know what is happening with all of this!  Tyler if you make me judge this at State or Regionals, I’m ruling against you!   :P

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 2054
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2019, 06:47:57 AM »
+1
Sooo...where are we with this?

RedemptionAggie’s response is going to be the official ruling, apparently.
Need Redemption? Visit Your Turn Games today!

Offline Josh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3178
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2019, 07:54:43 AM »
+1
Sooo...where are we with this?

RedemptionAggie’s response is going to be the official ruling, apparently.

His ruling is correct, except for one thing:  The hero that Daniel banded to would still be in battle.  Daniel is CBN, so his band sticks no matter what.
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 2054
  • Your Turn Games Owner
    • -
    • Southeast Region
    • Your Turn Games
Re: Negating a CBN band
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2019, 08:29:06 AM »
0
Sooo...where are we with this?

RedemptionAggie’s response is going to be the official ruling, apparently.

His ruling is correct, except for one thing:  The hero that Daniel banded to would still be in battle.  Daniel is CBN, so his band sticks no matter what.

Agreed.
Need Redemption? Visit Your Turn Games today!