Author Topic: Matching? (Read 4111 times)

Gabe · « **on:** March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM »

We have several cards in the game that instruct you to do things with another card that matches. In most cases it's obvious what we mean by matching because there is only one option. But there are a few instances where matching could have more than one meaning. I'll share 3 scenarios, please let us know how you expect these to work.

#1 - John the Apocalyptist (clay/purple) is being banished. You control Heavenly Temple and have both AoCP (purple) and Eternal Inheritance (clay) in hand. Can you discard the 2 Enhancements to Heavenly Temple to save John?

Heavenly Temple

Spoiler (hover to show)

#2 - You have The Outcasts, King of Tyrus (Wa) (gold) and Judas Iscariot (crimson). Do you meet the unity requirement?

The Outcasts

Spoiler (hover to show)

#3 - You place your "Humble" Lost Soul in Majestic Heavens. What is the testament of the card you topdeck (OT, NT or only dual testament)? Then, what is the testament of the Lost Soul token you generate (OT, NT or both)?

Majestic Heavens

Spoiler (hover to show)

Lost Soul "Humble"

Spoiler (hover to show)

3 Tokens

Spoiler (hover to show)

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:05:49 PM »

1. You can discard 2 diff brigades cause they both match the hero

2. I took it to mean of all ec share a brigade, so I would say unity not met

3. I thought I was you get to choose the testament of the token and card from reserve, but just 1 testament

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:11:17 PM »

Can you clarify point #3? Are you saying if I generate a N.T. token I have to topdeck a N.T. card?

Master Q · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:18:58 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM

#1 - John the Apocalyptist (clay/purple) is being banished. You control Heavenly Temple and have both AoCP (purple) and Eternal Inheritance (clay) in hand. Can you discard the 2 Enhancements to Heavenly Temple to save John?

I mean, you could, but why would you want to?

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM

#2 - You have The Outcasts, King of Tyrus (Wa) (gold) and Judas Iscariot (crimson). Do you meet the unity requirement?

Those evil characters have a brigade that matches Outcasts, so yes. If he said matching brigades (plural) it would be no. It's "If all your evil characters are either crimson or gold", not "If all your evil characters are only crimson or only gold", and also not "If all your evil characters are only crimson and gold".

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM

#3 - You place your "Humble" Lost Soul in Majestic Heavens. What is the testament of the Lost Soul token you generate (OT, NT or both)? Then, what is the testament of the card you topdeck (OT, NT or only dual testament)?

Going in order of which abilities activate first, you choose what testament you generate based on the testament of the card you topdeck, and you choose which when you first put Humble in the site.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:31:11 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on March 24, 2019, 01:18:58 PM

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM
#3 - You place your "Humble" Lost Soul in Majestic Heavens. What is the testament of the Lost Soul token you generate (OT, NT or both)? Then, what is the testament of the card you topdeck (OT, NT or only dual testament)?

Going in order of which abilities activate first, you choose what testament you generate based on the testament of the card you topdeck, and you choose which when you first put Humble in the site.

Can you clarify for me why the abilities are linked. The token is controlled by the identifier isn't it?

Master Q · « **Reply #5 on:** March 24, 2019, 01:57:24 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 24, 2019, 01:31:11 PM

Quote from: Master Q on March 24, 2019, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM
#3 - You place your "Humble" Lost Soul in Majestic Heavens. What is the testament of the Lost Soul token you generate (OT, NT or both)? Then, what is the testament of the card you topdeck (OT, NT or only dual testament)?

Going in order of which abilities activate first, you choose what testament you generate based on the testament of the card you topdeck, and you choose which when you first put Humble in the site.

Can you clarify for me why the abilities are linked. The token is controlled by the identifier isn't it?

I see what you're saying. The way I explained is how I've always played it, since I haven't had a reason to do so otherwise, but based on further thought it seems like you could topdeck an OT card and create a NT token, or the other way around.

You're only choosing one testament, though, so the token can only be OT or NT.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2019, 02:10:31 PM »

1. They both match the Hero's brigade, so yes.

2. Both the character's match Outcasts so they meet the unity requirements

3. You can topdeck an N.T. or O.T. soul since they both match the testament on Humble. There's plenty of precedent for a card that counts as two different things to be targetable using only one or part of it's attributes. As for the Soul token, it would have no testament since Majestic Heavens never specifies a testament as an attribute of the token and the rules don't contain any default attributes for a Lost Soul token.

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2019, 02:23:57 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 24, 2019, 02:10:31 PM

As for the Soul token, it would have no testament since Majestic Heavens never specifies a testament as an attribute of the token and the rules don't contain any default attributes for a Lost Soul token.

Did you notice the identifier on Majestic Heavens? If yes, and you still don't think it indicates the LS attributes, what do you take it to mean?

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2019, 03:01:52 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 12:59:29 PM

We have several cards in the game that instruct you to do things with another card that matches. In most cases it's obvious what we mean by matching because there is only one option. But there are a few instances where matching could have more than one meaning. I'll share 3 scenarios, please let us know how you expect these to work.

#1 - John the Apocalyptist (clay/purple) is being banished. You control Heavenly Temple and have both AoCP (purple) and Eternal Inheritance (clay) in hand. Can you discard the 2 Enhancements to Heavenly Temple to save John?

Heavenly Temple
Spoiler (hover to show)

#2 - You have The Outcasts, King of Tyrus (Wa) (gold) and Judas Iscariot (crimson). Do you meet the unity requirement?

The Outcasts
Spoiler (hover to show)

#3 - You place your "Humble" Lost Soul in Majestic Heavens. What is the testament of the card you topdeck (OT, NT or only dual testament)? Then, what is the testament of the Lost Soul token you generate (OT, NT or both)?

Majestic Heavens
Spoiler (hover to show)

Lost Soul "Humble"
Spoiler (hover to show)

3 Tokens
Spoiler (hover to show)

1 Yes, they both match his brigade.

2 Yes, Again they both match his brigade.

3 I would think the token becomes dual, but you can target any card because they all match the testament of humble for the topdeck.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2019, 03:45:04 PM »

I will agree with what Cnakes has summarized.

Godspeed,
Mike

Bobbert · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2019, 04:46:41 PM »

Since the person asking the question is among the people who would be able to definitely answer it and it's that time of year, I'm just gonna sit here an wait for the reveal that has a "matching" tag that can be interpreted multiple ways. Unless those tokens are actually being printed....

I've always interpreted 1 and 2 as Cnakeeyes. As for 3, Aggie said here that when you place a Humble in Majestic Heavens you can choose the testament for the token, and that the token and the topdecked card can be different testaments.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2019, 05:15:47 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on March 24, 2019, 04:46:41 PM

Since the person asking the question is among the people who would be able to definitely answer it and it's that time of year, I'm just gonna sit here an wait for the reveal that has a "matching" tag that can be interpreted multiple ways. Unless those tokens are actually being printed....

I've always interpreted 1 and 2 as Cnakeeyes. As for 3, Aggie said here that when you place a Humble in Majestic Heavens you can choose the testament for the token, and that the token and the topdecked card can be different testaments.

This is actually a legitimate question. We have a disagreement between multiple elders where we all agree that either interpretation could be valid and are seeking feedback on how the community views/plays these scenarios to help inform the decision we'll make

goalieking87 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2019, 05:16:19 PM »

Since those tokens are full card art, it can only mean they will be one of the Ultra Rares in POC phase 2.

jesse · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2019, 05:34:04 PM »

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Since Humble is both OT and NT, you can choose either an OT or NT card to topdeck. The token will then match the Testament of the card you chose. If you chose to topdeck a dual testament card, I'm not sure which testament the token would be. I would think that either it would also be dual testament, or else that you could choose the testament.

kram1138 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2019, 06:14:50 PM »

Yes, yes and dual

thejambi · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:01:05 PM »

As someone without much play experience, here's how I would expect this to work. I would be slightly disappointed and very confused if it were ruled differently in the case of the first two questions.

1. Yes. Clay or Purple? Check! Clay or Purple again? Check!
2. Yes. Same as 1 but with evil colors.
3. Topdeck either OT or NT (it's OT or NT? Check!) but for the token, gut says since it's generating something that matches, it would be Dual, but I wouldn't be disappointed or surprised if it meant I could choose OT, NT, or Dual.

Master Q · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:45:53 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on March 24, 2019, 05:16:19 PM

Since those tokens are full card art, and since there are 3 of them, it can only mean they will be all of the Ultra Rares in POC phase 2.

I think this is what you meant.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:46:42 PM »

I really appreciate everyone’s feedback so far! What seems intuitive to one person isn’t always the same to another. We found that different elders assumed some things work one way and some work another. Seeing how different people expect these to work helps us decide what might be the clearest path forward.

The tokens are just a personal aid and nothing that we plan to formally release. But they do contain a hint of things to come.

Please keep your feedback coming. The more input the better.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2019, 07:55:10 PM »

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Targets ot or nt and token LS becomes both testaments given that humble does not break covet's unity.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2019, 08:38:23 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 07:46:42 PM

The tokens are just a personal aid and nothing that we plan to formally release. But they do contain a hint of things to come.

Why are the first two cards seemingly denoting positions of meditation more commonly associated with eastern religions. (Yoga, Buddhism, Spiritualism, Mysticism) I am not claiming followers of Christ don't/can't/shouldn't utilize those positions to pray or meditate on the Word to hide it in our hearts as we are instructed. Just curious if there is deeper meaning behind it, maybe tied into "a hint of thing to come"?

Godspeed,
Mike

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2019, 08:52:26 PM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on March 24, 2019, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 07:46:42 PM
The tokens are just a personal aid and nothing that we plan to formally release. But they do contain a hint of things to come.

Why are the first two cards seemingly denoting positions of meditation more commonly associated with eastern religions. (Yoga, Buddhism, Spiritualism, Mysticism) I am not claiming followers of Christ don't/can't/shouldn't utilize those positions to pray or meditate on the Word to hide it in our hearts as we are instructed. Just curious if there is deeper meaning behind it, maybe tied into "a hint of thing to come"?

Godspeed,
Mike

Good guess, Mike! The silhouettes were only selected to represent a potentially lost figure for the token. There isn’t any meaning beyond that.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:19:48 PM »

Hmmmm... possible future Token Lost Soul cards? I like the idea, but not as Ultra Rares as mentioned above. Although that could've been meant jokingly. I don't think I would even put them in the Rare category either, beings a Token can be anything I choose, the lint in my pocket, a stick figure drawn on a napkin, nickel or plain ol' empty card sleeve. An Uncommon at the most. I just don't see a Token card being a really sought after card when it can already be anything I choose it to be. I do see a possible market for player created Token cards. We have a fantastic computer savvy, entrepreneurial Redemption Community. Just my thoughts.

Godspeed,
Mike

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:25:12 PM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on March 24, 2019, 09:19:48 PM

Hmmmm... possible future Token Lost Soul cards? I like the idea, but not as Ultra Rares as mentioned above. Although that could've been meant jokingly. I don't think I would even put them in the Rare category either, beings a Token can be anything I choose, the lint in my pocket, a stick figure drawn on a napkin, nickel or plain ol' empty card sleeve. An Uncommon at the most. I just don't see a Token card being a really sought after card when it can already be anything I choose it to be. I do see a possible market for player created Token cards. We have a fantastic computer savvy, entrepreneurial Redemption Community. Just my thoughts.

Godspeed,
Mike

We totally agree - with the print on demand service we use and the set size limitations we have, it's doubtful we would print these in the context of a set.

What we would probably do is make them available as PDFs on some of the platforms for Redemption for people to print off themselves

777Godspeed · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:31:01 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 24, 2019, 09:25:12 PM

What we would probably do is make them available as PDFs on some of the platforms for Redemption for people to print off themselves

A hint at things to come?

Godspeed,
Mike

goalieking87 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2019, 09:39:11 PM »

I was totally joking about the LS Tokens being UR. Looks like Master Q caught on to that too, exaggerating it even more with 3 UR Lost Soul tokens.

For more serious feedback though:

1. Yes, as commonly stated
2. Yes, as commonly stated
3. If 1 and 2 above are true, that would require you to be able to topdeck either NT or OT card from reserve (I.e. it would not have to be dual alignment). Otherwise for 1 above you would need to discard two cards that are both clay and purple, and for 2 you would need to have all ECs that are both gold and crimson.

As for the Lost Soul token, since it matches the LS placed in the site and is not dependent on what card is topdecked, then it could be either OT or NT (NOT DUAL ALIGNMENT). First, I believe that is also consistent with numbers one and two above. However, I would compare even more to rulings on conversion.

The rules have stated for a long time that if a convert ability does not specify a brigade, that the default is to the brigade of the card that is doing the conversion. The rules state though that Multi is not a specific brigade and cannot be used. Therefore, when someone is converted from a multi brigade card that does not specify a brigade, the player gets to choose from the brigades on that card.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:01:52 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2019, 02:23:57 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on March 24, 2019, 02:10:31 PM
As for the Soul token, it would have no testament since Majestic Heavens never specifies a testament as an attribute of the token and the rules don't contain any default attributes for a Lost Soul token.

Did you notice the identifier on Majestic Heavens? If yes, and you still don't think it indicates the LS attributes, what do you take it to mean?

I completely skipped the identifier! I thought I must have missing something given the question. Having finally noticed that, this is one that I don't feel has a strong answer. The rest of the questions I feel are pretty well covered by existing rules but this one is slightly unclear to me. My feeling is that in the case of Humble the token would be both testaments. If it said "testaments" instead of "testament" in the identifier, then I would say it's clear both but with the current wording I wouldn't fault someone for ruling that you got to pick a single testament.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #26 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:26:55 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on March 24, 2019, 09:39:11 PM

The rules have stated for a long time that if a convert ability does not specify a brigade, that the default is to the brigade of the card that is doing the conversion. The rules state though that Multi is not a specific brigade and cannot be used. Therefore, when someone is converted from a multi brigade card that does not specify a brigade, the player gets to choose from the brigades on that card.

Throughout most of this thread I was thinking it would be dual testament until I got to this argument that changed my mind. I'd say the token creator gets to pick and it doesn't have to be the same testament as the topdecked card. My thinking is based on the reasoning that the token would still match Humble's testament given the general consensus of the first two questions and the REG's definition of "Matching", and that I don't think "dual-testament" should be considered an actual testament. It should just be a pseudonym for cards that have both old and new testament reference, similar to dual-icon and dual-brigade cards even though those have been used in abilities now.

The Guardian · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2019, 11:44:03 PM »

I had always assumed the testament of the token matched the topdecked card, but I completely agree with goalieking's reasoning that the token LS can have either testament, but cannot have both testaments.

thejambi · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2019, 02:13:16 AM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on March 24, 2019, 09:39:11 PM

1. Yes, as commonly stated
2. Yes, as commonly stated
3. If 1 and 2 above are true, that would require you to be able to topdeck either NT or OT card from reserve (I.e. it would not have to be dual alignment). Otherwise for 1 above you would need to discard two cards that are both clay and purple, and for 2 you would need to have all ECs that are both gold and crimson.

As for the Lost Soul token, since it matches the LS placed in the site and is not dependent on what card is topdecked, then it could be either OT or NT (NOT DUAL ALIGNMENT). First, I believe that is also consistent with numbers one and two above. However, I would compare even more to rulings on conversion.

The rules have stated for a long time that if a convert ability does not specify a brigade, that the default is to the brigade of the card that is doing the conversion. The rules state though that Multi is not a specific brigade and cannot be used. Therefore, when someone is converted from a multi brigade card that does not specify a brigade, the player gets to choose from the brigades on that card.

^ Convinced me. I agree that it's comparable to the convert and should work similarly.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #29 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:03:11 AM »

While I agree with most arguments put forth here (both ways being viable), I can see the difficultly the Elders are facing and appreciate them reaching out to the Redemption Community. I think we may need to look at it from a different angle. With the introduction of Majestic Heavens is it possible that we now have a new mechanic, Create? Tokens are new to Redemption and the wording on Majestic Heavens may have inadvertently spawned a new mechanic that has similarities to existing rules/mechanics, but should be treated and defined on its own. Maybe we should take a long, hard and in-depth look at what the ramifications may be of trying to shoehorn a, possibly, new mechanic of Create into existing similar rules/functions/mechanics, as opposed to defining it to be unique unto itself in Redemption. Just throwing this out there after giving it some further thought.

Godspeed,
Mike

Sean · « **Reply #30 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:39:34 AM »

I feel like Humble LS should be NT only, would that not solve the issue?

The Guardian · « **Reply #31 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:45:24 AM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on March 25, 2019, 10:03:11 AM

While I agree with most arguments put forth here (both ways being viable), I can see the difficultly the Elders are facing and appreciate them reaching out to the Redemption Community. I think we may need to look at it from a different angle. With the introduction of Majestic Heavens is it possible that we now have a new mechanic, Create? Tokens are new to Redemption and the wording on Majestic Heavens may have inadvertently spawned a new mechanic that has similarities to existing rules/mechanics, but should be treated and defined on its own. Maybe we should take a long, hard and in-depth look at what the ramifications may be of trying to shoehorn a, possibly, new mechanic of Create into existing similar rules/functions/mechanics, as opposed to defining it to be unique unto itself in Redemption. Just throwing this out there after giving it some further thought.

Godspeed,
Mike

That would be an excellent thing to add to the REG.

Quote

Create a Token
Last Updated:
Released: 6/11/2018 (v5.1.0)
How to Play
● A create a token effect creates a token of a specified card type and puts it in a location.
● A card with a create a token effect may have a "Token" identifier that describes the attributes of the created
token beyond the card type. The identifier only applies to the creation of a token, not to any other targeting of a
token on that card.
● Unless otherwise specified, tokens are created in the territory of the player controlling the card with the create a
token effect.
● Create a token effects are instant

Oh look, there it is.

The Guardian · « **Reply #32 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:47:41 AM »

Quote from: Sean on March 25, 2019, 10:39:34 AM

I feel like Humble LS should be NT only, would that not solve the issue?

That would require issuing an errata when I am fairly convinced goalieking gave us a correct and consistent interpretation already.

Sean · « **Reply #33 on:** March 25, 2019, 10:59:42 AM »

I don't think the use of parenthesis would dictate that Humble is/can be OT. Not saying we need to change it but seemed like an easy way to solve a potentially difficult issue.

Quote

Parentheses are generally used for clarification to make an only semi-relevant side note. They are sort of like footnotes within a text (usually used in works that don't use footnotes).

Quote

Brackets (parentheses) are punctuation marks used within a sentence to include information that is not essential to the main point.

The Guardian · « **Reply #34 on:** March 25, 2019, 11:07:09 AM »

That's a fair point, but I believe that ship has sailed in Redemption terms. Cards other than Humble were specifically designed to be dual-testament and were given the "reference (reference)" treatment, and to change that would be a fairly drastic change.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #35 on:** March 25, 2019, 01:00:16 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 25, 2019, 10:45:24 AM

Quote from: 777Godspeed on March 25, 2019, 10:03:11 AM
While I agree with most arguments put forth here (both ways being viable), I can see the difficultly the Elders are facing and appreciate them reaching out to the Redemption Community. I think we may need to look at it from a different angle. With the introduction of Majestic Heavens is it possible that we now have a new mechanic, Create? Tokens are new to Redemption and the wording on Majestic Heavens may have inadvertently spawned a new mechanic that has similarities to existing rules/mechanics, but should be treated and defined on its own. Maybe we should take a long, hard and in-depth look at what the ramifications may be of trying to shoehorn a, possibly, new mechanic of Create into existing similar rules/functions/mechanics, as opposed to defining it to be unique unto itself in Redemption. Just throwing this out there after giving it some further thought.

Godspeed,
Mike

That would be an excellent thing to add to the REG.

Quote
Create a Token
Last Updated:
Released: 6/11/2018 (v5.1.0)
How to Play
● A create a token effect creates a token of a specified card type and puts it in a location.
● A card with a create a token effect may have a "Token" identifier that describes the attributes of the created
token beyond the card type. The identifier only applies to the creation of a token, not to any other targeting of a
token on that card.
● Unless otherwise specified, tokens are created in the territory of the player controlling the card with the create a
token effect.
● Create a token effects are instant

Oh look, there it is.

Doh!

Yes, exactly, but even with this we are still considering how to handle Humble currently and subsequently how to proceed with Create a Token of X in the future. Further definng what attributes/abilities are chosen, how they are chosen, if they are chosen may be of help to simplify now rather than try to "make it work" later. Do we anticipate including something like a copy effect of abilities or identifiers with Create a Token of X? Are Create and Copy similar enough in outcome to be interchangeable mechanics-wise? Just wondering. I do not doubt how much forethought went into the Create a Token mechanic and definition, I guess I am just looking for it to be additionally refined, defined, streamlined in anticipation of issues that could arise. Instead of alluding to rules for other actions to govern Create a Token, possibly look at adding another bullet point or two so Create a Token is defined how indentifiers, alignment, special abilities, scripture reference are resolved.
Bleh, what a ramble on my part.

Godspeed,
Mike

thecoolguy · « **Reply #36 on:** March 27, 2019, 11:19:35 AM »

To clear up confusion I propose that if you put a card in play and it says matching on it. Then I think you could choose one of the brigades to match it with. Like example- you put the outsiders with ( matching this characters brigade) you could have an identifier saying choose eaither crimson or gold. And with magesitic heavens you can choose OT or NT. So that the confusion isn’t there. That’s my opinion on it.

thejambi · « **Reply #37 on:** March 27, 2019, 12:40:08 PM »

I don't think that would be necessary, and would break the possibilities that these cards are designed for. These examples are not confusing, it's just that they lack clarity in the rules at the current time.

Josh · « **Reply #38 on:** March 27, 2019, 01:21:43 PM »

The question really comes down to, does "matching brigade" mean "1 brigade is identical" or "ALL brigades are identical"? I think it might be as simple as a few extra characters for clarification:

1. "A matching brigade to Card A" means Card B has at least 1 brigade that is also on Card A (additional brigades on Card B don't matter)

2. "Matching brigades to Card A" means all brigades on Card A are also on Card B (additional brigades on Card B don't matter)

3. "Identical brigades with Card A" means all brigades on Card A are also on Card B, and all brigades on Card B are also on Card A

Outcasts is clearly intended to be Option 1. The problem is, the Unity definition was designed to name an identifier that all cards of the chosen subset have (i.e., are "unified" by). Using a matching brigade identifier creates a comparison (between Outcasts and the other cards of the chosen subset) within the identifier description itself.

*****

I should point out that Shibboleth! is another great example for this discussion. It doesn't use the word "matching", but it should:

"If an Evil Character is in battle, discard all Evil Characters in opponent's territory whose brigade is not in battle."

thejambi · « **Reply #39 on:** March 27, 2019, 03:19:37 PM »

I don't think it's a problem with being used with Unity at all though. Unity is "if all your [card type] meet condition [this condition]", right? Having an"or" in the condition is perfectly compatible and understandable.

Josh · « **Reply #40 on:** March 27, 2019, 04:53:01 PM »

Quote from: thejambi on March 27, 2019, 03:19:37 PM

I don't think it's a problem with being used with Unity at all though. Unity is "if all your [card type] meet condition [this condition]", right? Having an"or" in the condition is perfectly compatible and understandable.

I agree with you. I'm not saying that Outcasts can't have the Unity identifier that was intended for it; I just think it would be cleaner to use Unity the way it was intended. Something like:

Unity: Evil characters (Gold and/or Crimson)

This is written in the form "Unity: Subset Of Cards A (identifier or identifiers that must be present on every card in Subset Of Cards A)"

*****

If I tried to write this using the definitions of "matching" I proposed above, it would look like this:

Unity: Evil characters (A matching brigade to this card)

But this is still awkward, because "matching" (by definition) is defining a Group Of Cards B by their relationship to Card A. Yet in the Unity clause, both Group Of Cards B and Card A are contained within the larger subset of cards that are being Unified.

thejambi · « **Reply #41 on:** March 27, 2019, 07:34:53 PM »

Agreed that just putting the Unity on Outcasts that way would have been better. But it's done, and I think it still works as long as it's clear that matching brigade to that card does just mean "Gold and/or Crimson". Which I think it does currently, honestly. I don't think it's awkward. Written either way, you'd have to ask "does this card match itself?" and the answer is an easy yes.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2019, 07:55:01 PM »

One thing using "matching" in The Outcasts Unity is it makes him stop working if he's converted, as the ECs can't match his good brigade.

News:

Author Topic: Matching? (Read 4111 times)

TheHobbit13