Author Topic: Justin Martyr  (Read 2276 times)

Offline emonier

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Justin Martyr
« on: May 16, 2018, 11:43:54 AM »
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JM reads: You may search deck, reserve or discard pile (if it contains a martyr) for...

Question: Does the parenthesis "if it contains a martyr" only refer the discard pile, or does it refer to the whole list - i.e. deck, reserve, and discard pile?

Thanks

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2018, 11:45:08 AM »
+1
Only discard pile has the requirement.

Offline SEB

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 01:10:02 PM »
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JM reads: You may search deck, reserve or discard pile (if it contains a martyr) for...

Question: Does the parenthesis "if it contains a martyr" only refer the discard pile, or does it refer to the whole list - i.e. deck, reserve, and discard pile?

Thanks

This is a great example of why I was struggling with the uncommon way of using parenthetical phrases. From a grammatical point of view, the above parenthetical phrase comments on the whole sentence and by extension its subsequent parts, thus the common understanding is that "(if it contains a martyr)" would apply to each the "deck," "reserve," and "discard pile." If the intent was only the discard pile needed a martyr, the expected syntax would be something like: "You may search deck, reserve, or discard pile if it contains a martyr for . . ."
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 01:18:38 PM »
+1
JM reads: You may search deck, reserve or discard pile (if it contains a martyr) for...

Question: Does the parenthesis "if it contains a martyr" only refer the discard pile, or does it refer to the whole list - i.e. deck, reserve, and discard pile?

Thanks

This is a great example of why I was struggling with the uncommon way of using parenthetical phrases. From a grammatical point of view, the above parenthetical phrase comments on the whole sentence and by extension its subsequent parts, thus the common understanding is that "(if it contains a martyr)" would apply to each the "deck," "reserve," and "discard pile." If the intent was only the discard pile needed a martyr, the expected syntax would be something like: "You may search deck, reserve, or discard pile if it contains a martyr for . . ."

I'm not a grammar expect so I don't know if this would be the technical best way to do it but whenever I write a list and only one item has a qualifier I put it first so in this case it would be "You may search discard pile (if it contains a martyr), deck, or reserve for...". That seems the clearest way to communicate it IMO.

Offline SEB

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 01:39:07 PM »
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JM reads: You may search deck, reserve or discard pile (if it contains a martyr) for...

Question: Does the parenthesis "if it contains a martyr" only refer the discard pile, or does it refer to the whole list - i.e. deck, reserve, and discard pile?

Thanks

This is a great example of why I was struggling with the uncommon way of using parenthetical phrases. From a grammatical point of view, the above parenthetical phrase comments on the whole sentence and by extension its subsequent parts, thus the common understanding is that "(if it contains a martyr)" would apply to each the "deck," "reserve," and "discard pile." If the intent was only the discard pile needed a martyr, the expected syntax would be something like: "You may search deck, reserve, or discard pile if it contains a martyr for . . ."

I'm not a grammar expect so I don't know if this would be the technical best way to do it but whenever I write a list and only one item has a qualifier I put it first so in this case it would be "You may search discard pile (if it contains a martyr), deck, or reserve for...". That seems the clearest way to communicate it IMO.

The parentheses would not be the correct grammatical punctuate in your sentence. You should punctuate it as: "You may search discard pile, if it contains a martyr, deck, or reserve for ..." If there is a concern with too many commas, you can use semi colons to avoid confusion: "You may search discard pile, if it contains a martyr; deck; or reserve for ..." While the second way is correct, it's not as common.

Because you have a list with only one item having a condition (not sure I would call this a modifier), it may be best to word it: "You may search deck, reserve, or, if it contains a martyr, discard pile for ..."
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:47:59 PM by SEB »
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2018, 02:07:32 PM »
+5
I'm not a grammar expect
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Offline emonier

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2018, 03:42:33 PM »
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Only discard pile has the requirement.

Thank you, Kevin.

That confirms what I had previously thought about how to play the card.

Unfortunately, during the last tournament I was in, my opponent convinced me that it should be played the other way -- and this contributed to my loss of that game.

God bless.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2018, 04:08:58 PM »
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Only discard pile has the requirement.

Thank you, Kevin.

That confirms what I had previously thought about how to play the card.

Unfortunately, during the last tournament I was in, my opponent convinced me that it should be played the other way -- and this contributed to my loss of that game.

God bless.

You should have asked the judge and he would have told you it was referring to the discard pile. ;)
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Offline Jeremystair

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 04:49:16 PM »
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Well originally I thought that it work the way it does now because of the card they released last year before they updated the wording.


Then I started playing it a different way because the wording had changed. In this wording it sounds like there has to be a martyr in each one of those piles in order to search those things out. The first one was a lot more clear.


Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 04:53:49 PM »
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The first format is what we used for that sort of upgrade this year in FoM, so I'm not sure why it would have been changed last year. I think Justin Martyr was the first card to conditionally upgrade to a new location, so maybe the format wasn't completely ironed out.

Offline SEB

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 05:01:35 PM »
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The first format is what we used for that sort of upgrade this year in FoM, so I'm not sure why it would have been changed last year. I think Justin Martyr was the first card to conditionally upgrade to a new location, so maybe the format wasn't completely ironed out.

but why use parentheses?
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 05:13:35 PM »
+1
The first format is what we used for that sort of upgrade this year in FoM, so I'm not sure why it would have been changed last year. I think Justin Martyr was the first card to conditionally upgrade to a new location, so maybe the format wasn't completely ironed out.

but why use parentheses?

So people don't have to parse the commas, I guess. I don't really know - but looking back at other cards that use parentheses, the current format probably started with Apostles (Angelic Rebellion has an exception) and was expanded in Kings (Rezon Arises and Syrian Victory have conditional upgrades).
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:17:09 PM by RedemptionAggie »

Offline Josh

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 08:19:20 AM »
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RedemptionAggie's post above shows how parentheses can be used in everyday language to good effect. 

And I use parentheses all the time in work emails, primarily when I am sending multiple attachments to clients and I need to make a clarification on one of the attachments.  I simply use parentheses after the attachment that needs clarification.  Works perfect.  Justin Martyr is the same principle. 

Maybe the grammar police have determined that parentheses are inappropriate and need to be replaced by commas and semicolons...  But the grammar police have been wrong before, such as beginning sentences with conjunctions (anyone remember that awesome scene from Finding Forrester?  ;) ) or ending sentences with prepositions - which there's nothing wrong with.
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Offline SEB

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 09:27:53 AM »
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RedemptionAggie's post above shows how parentheses can be used in everyday language to good effect. 

And I use parentheses all the time in work emails, primarily when I am sending multiple attachments to clients and I need to make a clarification on one of the attachments.  I simply use parentheses after the attachment that needs clarification.  Works perfect.  Justin Martyr is the same principle. 

Maybe the grammar police have determined that parentheses are inappropriate and need to be replaced by commas and semicolons...  But the grammar police have been wrong before, such as beginning sentences with conjunctions (anyone remember that awesome scene from Finding Forrester?  ;) ) or ending sentences with prepositions - which there's nothing wrong with.

haha nice Josh.

But, to the point, you and Redemptionaggie used parenthesis correctly in the above posts.  I am mostly concerned from a syntactically standpoint (I'm not the grammEr police - just a deputy ;)) Parentheses (a great tool when used correctly) have a specific function in communication - their use in the card in discussion does not help with good communication.

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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2018, 01:59:27 PM »
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The singular pronoun in the parenthetical statement makes it abundantly clear which location the statement is referring to. There is no grammar violation in Justin Martyr's syntax.

*EDIT* This would be true if the list contained the Oxford comma. While I generally do not like or use it, in cases where a clear separation between modified items in a list is necessary, so is the fancy comma.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 02:02:13 PM by Minister Polarius »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2018, 02:25:21 PM »
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+1 with both points and I've also asked my brother who is an English major what he thinks.  8)

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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Justin Martyr
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 05:19:52 PM »
+1
English major brother (who used to play Redemption so has some familiarity) agrees it is not necessarily incorrect as worded, but might have been more clear/intuitive to have said "deck or Reserve, or discard pile if it contains a martyr" and just not used the ( ) at all.
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