Author Topic: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first  (Read 401 times)

Offline NWJonathan

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Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« on: April 01, 2019, 12:05:42 AM »
+1
Shouldn’t the interrupt part be the first part of the ability so it can be used during SI?

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As long as interrupt is part of the card's special ability then it should still work for SI. :thumbup:

**EDIT** Mod fail.  :P I missed the original post when splitting this topic. ~Gabe
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 10:55:30 AM by Gabe »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »
0
As long as interrupt is part of the card's special ability then it should still work for SI. :thumbup:

Not with the way the card is currently worded. The take ability happens first, so you can’t use this in SI for that reason. Just like you couldn’t use Unsuccessful (Pi) in SI due to the discard of Unsuccessful happening first, or Word of their Testimony to negate Spirit of Fear due to an evil human needing to be underdecked first.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 10:02:03 AM »
0
As long as interrupt is part of the card's special ability then it should still work for SI. :thumbup:

Not with the way the card is currently worded. The take ability happens first, so you can’t use this in SI for that reason. Just like you couldn’t use Unsuccessful (Pi) in SI due to the discard of Unsuccessful happening first, or Word of their Testimony to negate Spirit of Fear due to an evil human needing to be underdecked first.

According to Master Aggie NWJonathan is correct.

The rules only say you can play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate, not that it has to be the first thing the card does. That's kind of implied, but would mean something like Priests Scapegoat (banish to negate) doesn't work in SI.

I think the current ruling is that SI suspends the removing ability, Boasting is played, searches, then interrupt/draw 3/play.

In theory, I agree with everyone else that it should be interrupt/draw/play, then search if appropriate.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 10:11:18 AM »
0
So one could use WotT to negate spirit of fear, even with having to underdeck an evil human first? And if this is the case why can’t Unsuccessful (Pi) be used in SI?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 10:14:46 AM by Watchman »
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 10:23:40 AM »
0
So one could use WotT to negate spirit of fear, even with having to underdeck an evil human first? And if this is the case why can’t Unsuccessful (Pi) be used in SI?

Because in the case of Unsuccessful and Speech it doesn't interrupt anything when you play it. Both of them require you to manually activate an ability before they interrupt.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 10:42:44 AM »
0
So one could use WotT to negate spirit of fear, even with having to underdeck an evil human first? And if this is the case why can’t Unsuccessful (Pi) be used in SI?

Because in the case of Unsuccessful and Speech it doesn't interrupt anything when you play it. Both of them require you to manually activate an ability before they interrupt.

Then how is that any different than taking a site first before you can interrupt the removal with ToJ?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 11:01:29 AM »
0
So one could use WotT to negate spirit of fear, even with having to underdeck an evil human first? And if this is the case why can’t Unsuccessful (Pi) be used in SI?

Because in the case of Unsuccessful and Speech it doesn't interrupt anything when you play it. Both of them require you to manually activate an ability before they interrupt.

Then how is that any different than taking a site first before you can interrupt the removal with ToJ?

It's not about doing other things before the interrupt, it's about whether the interrupt is part of playing the card or a separate, manually activated ability after the card completes. If there was an enhancement version of Woes that did something like "Place this card in territory: negate a card." you could play that card during SI. That would be different than Speech because this imaginary card doesn't require you to manually activate an ability for the interrupt to happen.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 11:06:55 AM »
0
I believe KtD is correct. A manually activated ability requires it to be triggered, then you choose whether or not to use it when the trigger resolves. But you cannot resolve a trigger during SI, it has to wait for all other abilities to complete before it can resolve.

Take a Site (Jez's Treachery) or banish this card to (Scapegoat priests) don't require a manual trigger, but they do more than just interrupt or negate.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2019, 01:15:48 PM »
0
And you guys don’t see the confusion this will cause other players (particularly newer ones, and obviously me) when you can play ToJ or Scapegoat during SI and take a site first or banish it even though your last character is being removed from battle, but you can’t play a card like Gam’s Speech or Unsuccessful because it requires a manual activation first? I’m failing to see the difference in “banish this card to” vs “discard this card to” when it comes to Scapegoat being allowed during DI but Unsuccessful not. Isn’t this counter-intuitive?

Why can’t cards that interrupt/negate simply be played during SI no matter if you have to manually activate some other ability first? Why make this more complicated than it needs to be? Why can’t the rule be something as simple as if a card is causing you to have SI then you can play an enh that interrupts or negates that ability, regardless of whether or not you have to “manually trigger” it?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2019, 01:20:12 PM »
0
And you guys don’t see the confusion this will cause other players (particularly newer ones, and obviously me) when you can play ToJ or Scapegoat during SI and take a site first or banish it even though your last character is being removed from battle, but you can’t play a card like Gam’s Speech or Unsuccessful because it requires a manual activation first? I’m failing to see the difference in “banish this card to” vs “discard this card to” when it comes to Scapegoat being allowed during DI but Unsuccessful not. Isn’t this counter-intuitive?

Why can’t cards that interrupt/negate simply be played during SI no matter if you have to manually activate some other ability first? Why make this more complicated than it needs to be? Why can’t the rule be something as simple as if a card is causing you to have SI then you can play an enh that interrupts or negates that ability, regardless of whether or not you have to “manually trigger” it?

Because without this distinction, you would be able to play cards during SI that wouldn't have to actually interrupt the ability. In the case of Speech, if it were legal to play it during SI, you would have the option of playing it but not choosing to activate it once it's in territory. On top of that, it may feel less complicated on the surface to just say "If the card can negate the thing causing SI at some point then go for it" but that's actually harder to define in rules text and opens up the rules to a lot more edge cases, like placing Speech during SI but not activating it. In the end the current option is actually the simple one.

Offline thejambi

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2019, 02:08:37 PM »
0
I like being inexperienced because when people talk about "me" I can chime in :)
Definitely confused... If Speech is already in your territory, can you use it in SI?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2019, 02:15:30 PM »
0
I like being inexperienced because when people talk about "me" I can chime in :)
Definitely confused... If Speech is already in your territory, can you use it in SI?

Not during SI, since SI only involves playing a card, but in most cases activating Speech right after SI will have almost the same affect. Woes works the same way, you cannot play it during SI but you can play it immediately after for a similar effect.

Offline thejambi

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2019, 02:20:16 PM »
0
I like being inexperienced because when people talk about "me" I can chime in :)
Definitely confused... If Speech is already in your territory, can you use it in SI?

Not during SI, since SI only involves playing a card, but in most cases activating Speech right after SI will have almost the same affect. Woes works the same way, you cannot play it during SI but you can play it immediately after for a similar effect.
What happens during "After SI"? Aka, how does what you're saying look like in the flow of a battle?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2019, 02:30:04 PM »
0
I like being inexperienced because when people talk about "me" I can chime in :)
Definitely confused... If Speech is already in your territory, can you use it in SI?

Not during SI, since SI only involves playing a card, but in most cases activating Speech right after SI will have almost the same affect. Woes works the same way, you cannot play it during SI but you can play it immediately after for a similar effect.
What happens during "After SI"? Aka, how does what you're saying look like in the flow of a battle?

I have a guy in battle, you have a smaller guy in battle. You play an enhancement that discards my guy and I get SI. I have no interrupt in hand but I do have Speech in my territory so I decline to play anything during SI. My guy is discarded. I activate Speech to negate the enhancement that discarded my guy. My guy is now back in battle and you have regular initiative again.

Offline thejambi

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2019, 02:52:55 PM »
0
Makes sense!
What's the Unsuccessful card being mentioned here? I see this one which should work fine.. https://thejambi.github.io/RedemptionCCGViewer/?GYXgqgdgzgrgxnAplKwYBsg
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2019, 02:55:14 PM »
0
Makes sense!
What's the Unsuccessful card being mentioned here?

An old curse that has errata making it confusing what situations it works in. Fortunately this upcoming set has a new Unsuccessful that's much better and clearer.

Offline thejambi

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2019, 03:12:00 PM »
0
Ohhhhhh errata... I should figure out how to find those..
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2019, 03:17:04 PM »
0
Ohhhhhh errata... I should figure out how to find those..

Well, there's this thread that is a bit dated and may not include all of them: http://www.cactusforums.com/rules-announcements/errata-reworded-special-abilities/.

Otherwise the ORCID should contain all current erratas on a card by card basis.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2019, 09:26:10 PM »
0
Because without this distinction, you would be able to play cards during SI that wouldn't have to actually interrupt the ability. In the case of Speech, if it were legal to play it during SI, you would have the option of playing it but not choosing to activate it once it's in territory. On top of that, it may feel less complicated on the surface to just say "If the card can negate the thing causing SI at some point then go for it" but that's actually harder to define in rules text and opens up the rules to a lot more edge cases, like placing Speech during SI but not activating it. In the end the current option is actually the simple one.

Just when I thought Redemption couldn’t get anymore complicated.

So in regards to one of my original questions, you guys are saying that I could play WotT to negate Spirit of Fear even though I have to underdeck an evil human first? And it’s no problem that I can do that and insert that ability (the same with ToJ and take a site) while I have SI? This simply does not sound correct to me. The whole point of SI is the one chance you get to directly interrupt the removing ability, not to use some other ability during SI and eventually get around to dealing with the removing ability once I’m done with what I want to do first.

The rule says that the player has the opportunity to play an enh that will interrupt or negate the removing ability. It doesn’t say that you have the opportunity to play a card that contains another non-interrupt/negate ability during SI, and that that ability can activate before the interrupt/negate. And I still don’t see how Scapegoat, which appears to me to have a manual trigger (banish this to...) is any different than Unsuccessful’s “discard this to...” ability. I’m sorry to keep asking this but I’m thoroughly confused about these scenarios and the explanations about them.
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Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 10:12:54 PM »
0
I think of it this way,

GS has 2 separate abilities,
1-place in teritory
2-discard to negate

At face value GS only has the place ability. The negate is only added if it has been placed.

The other card mentioned in the original post has 1 ability that is not contingent on anything. That ability includes an interrupt therfore it works.

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2019, 11:28:51 PM »
+1
And I still don’t see how Scapegoat, which appears to me to have a manual trigger (banish this to...) is any different than Unsuccessful’s “discard this to...” ability. I’m sorry to keep asking this but I’m thoroughly confused about these scenarios and the explanations about them.

Scapegoat is not a manual trigger (or "activated effect", as it's referred to in the REG), because it doesn't sit around waiting for you to activate it at will - you do it when you play it or not at all. Manual triggers must be active before you can trigger them, and you can't trigger them while anything else is happening, so the negate can't happen during SI. It's the "At any time", "While placed", "During battle", etc. that makes something a manual trigger, not the discard/banish cost.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 09:25:58 AM »
0
Thanks for taking the time to explain it. However, I still feel this rule is unnecessarily complicated.

Also, my WotT/ToJ question still hasn’t been answered. Can you please advise on that?

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Offline kram1138

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2019, 11:20:36 AM »
+1
The way I've always thought of it is that you can only play a card that, once all of the instant abilities (which include any interrupts and the interrupt part of negates), the removing ability has been interrupted. This means that if you play a card with an optional, but instant, interrupt or negate, then you can play it, but you are forced to choose the option that interrupts. But you can't play a card like Gam's Speech as the instant portion of it is a place. Once the place is finished, the removing ability has not been interrupted, so you can't play it.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2019, 08:05:41 PM »
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According to Master Aggie NWJonathan is correct.

The rules only say you can play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate, not that it has to be the first thing the card does. That's kind of implied, but would mean something like Priests Scapegoat (banish to negate) doesn't work in SI.

I think the current ruling is that SI suspends the removing ability, Boasting is played, searches, then interrupt/draw 3/play.

In theory, I agree with everyone else that it should be interrupt/draw/play, then search if appropriate.

Sorry to bring this back up but I’d like to see what input the community has about this topic.

Isn’t it more intuitive that during SI, when an enh that contains another ability, in addition to a negate/interrupt ability that the negate/interrupt should be the first thing that happens? It just seems really out of place for some other ability to insert itself before the negate/interrupt during SI.

And I could have sworn I saw a post from an elder a couple of years ago that the negate/interrupt has to be the first ability on the enh during SI in order to stop the removing ability. I searched but couldn’t find it.
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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Interrupt/Negate when other abilities are written first
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2019, 04:06:25 AM »
+1
And you guys don’t see the confusion this will cause other players (particularly newer ones, and obviously me) when you can play ToJ or Scapegoat during SI and take a site first or banish it even though your last character is being removed from battle, but you can’t play a card like Gam’s Speech or Unsuccessful because it requires a manual activation first? I’m failing to see the difference in “banish this card to” vs “discard this card to” when it comes to Scapegoat being allowed during DI but Unsuccessful not. Isn’t this counter-intuitive?

Unsuccessful (Pi) - Negate the last good Enhancement played in battle (may be used once).
Errata (from ORCID) - At any time, you may discard this card to negate the last good Enhancement played in battle.

I never had an issue with Unsuccessful in the past, but I would suggest an updated Errata in the format of the new curses - Enh.  side does X and Curse side does Y. I think that would allow Unsuccessful (Pi) to work intuitively and as originally intended.
Maybe something like:
Gray Enh., 0/6 - Negate the last good Enhancement played in battle.
Curse/Artifact - Discard this card to negate the last good Enhancement played in battle.

Scapegoat is pretty straightforward - "If used by a Hight Priest, remove this card from the game to negate and discard all evil Enhancements and Curses in play. Cannot be negated."
Who can use it? a High Priest
Cost of using it? Remove/Banish this card
Benefit of doing this? negate and discard all evil Enhancements and Curses in play. Cannot be negated.

Gam's Speech is pretty straightforward also - "Place in your territory: You may discard this card to negate and discard the last Enhancement played by an opponent or any other Enhancement in play."
Who can use it? Clay Heroes or Gray EC's
Cost of using it?  MUST be placed in your territory to activate it/Discard (I can't just flip it out from hand)
Benefit of doing this?  negate and discard the last Enhancement played by an opponent or any other Enhancement in play.


     Ideally, it would be nice to have Negate/Interrupt be the first ability on an Enhancement during SI in order to stop an opponents’ ability, but the reality is over the past 25 years how abilities are worded and how much wording can be placed on cards has changed, as well as, nuances of the game. When I started playing there were no Covenants, Curses or Territory Class enhancements, but why not use them to their max potential for the game play experience.
     Going back to Gamaliel’s Speech, “Place in your territory: You may discard this card to negate and discard the last Enhancement played by an opponent or any other Enhancement in play.” , it MUST be placed in your territory to activate, if that condition is met, then during SI you can utilize it to negate/discard. This nuance to a TC Enhancement intentionally tips your hand to your opponent because it sits in your territory for all to see and possibly target with 3 Woes or something else. Other TC enhancements may be played during Prep, Battle or Discard phase or on specific other cards for optimal results. Territory Class enhancements aren't all the same or have the same conditions that need to be met to work, nor should they. For instance, Kindness of Boaz – White, 1/3, Territory Class - Draw 1 (or 2 if used by Boaz). Do I use it on Ruth during battle for a D1 and #’s increase or during Prep phase on Boaz (who I just placed in territory) to get the D2 pre-battle phase hoping to draw a battle winner or during discard phase hoping to draw some more defense or Dominants? Decisions, Decisions… These all provide options, necessary planning and depth of strategy to Redemption aaannndddd some times we end up with some not so well worded SAs. Not unforgivable, not insurmountable, but probably annoying.


Godspeed,
Mike
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 05:07:22 AM by 777Godspeed »
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