Author Topic: Four Living Creatures gender  (Read 1643 times)

Offline Watchman

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Four Living Creatures gender
« on: July 27, 2018, 09:45:26 PM »
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Had a game last night in which my opponent played Moses Kills Egyptian to set aside my FLC. I wasn’t sure if FLC was considered male since the scripture didn’t say “he.” The only ref is a preceding scripture that reads that one of them had the “face like a man.” Based upon that, the card image showed a male looking angel (as opposed to the other three were animal looking), and the REG didn’t list FLC as one of the genderless heroes I ruled that MKE could target my hero.

Should the FLC be considered male or maybe be added to the Genderless entry?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 10:01:20 PM »
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I agree with your ruling for the reasons you gave though it may be prudent to evaluate if they should be added to genderless list with the post Nats REG update.
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Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Watchman

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2018, 07:38:29 AM »
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Good call. I personally think it should be considered genderless. My wife made a good point and said that if a female had a face like a man would she still be a female? Yes, she would be. There are no male or female pronouns in any part of the scripture verses that describe FLC. The only hint is one of them had a face like a man, but this still doesn’t fully define any gender related to FLC. And just by the name—Four Living Creatures—I believe they should be considered genderless.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2018, 09:00:34 AM »
+1
All angels are male by default (except the 2 females from AW). FLC is male too. Genderless is typical reserved for a group that consists of males and females.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2018, 09:26:53 AM »
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All angels are male by default (except the 2 females from AW). FLC is male too. Genderless is typical reserved for a group that consists of males and females.

If that’s the case I’d recommend an entry in the ORDIR under Angel notating that all angels are considered male unless otherwise designated.

By the way, Coliseum Lion is not among the genderless ECs. There’s no indication that it’s male or female.
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Offline Xonathan

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2018, 09:32:48 AM »
+1
The depiction is a single lion which is male because of the mane.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2018, 10:15:14 AM »
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The depiction is a single lion which is male because of the mane.

Nice observation/point. I didn’t think about the mane.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2018, 10:49:03 AM »
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All angels are male by default (except the 2 females from AW). FLC is male too. Genderless is typical reserved for a group that consists of males and females.

All angels? As per ORDIR I believed they would follow the rest of the 'non-human' category and be based on art?  Or are you saying that there is no art depicting female angels?

From ORDIR:

Quote
Gender

Human Characters
In Redemption®, most humans are either male or female. Usually the picture makes it
obvious which a character is, but sometimes it is difficult to tell (sometimes there are a male
and a female in the picture, and you don’t know to which the name refers). In this case, use
the Scripture verse as the guide.

Non-Human Characters
These characters are also treated as having a gender. This is determined using the following:
• Card Title/Verse text: If the title or verse refers to a character with words such as ‘he’ or
‘his’ or ‘Prince’, etc., then the character is to be treated as male.
• Card Art: If the character appears to be male, it is treated as male. If the character appears
to be female, it is treated as female

Dual-Gender Characters
Sometimes a card will represent exactly two characters having different genders based on the
scripture or art, thus it is treated as both male and female.

Genderless Characters
There are only a few Characters in the game that do not give clues as to gender, and are thus
treated as genderless.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 10:59:26 AM »
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I think angel at Bethesda may be female, but the rest are pretty clearly male as far as I know. 
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Offline Kor

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2018, 11:25:34 AM »
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I would say that:

One of Seven
Angel from the Sun
Angelic Warrior

Are at least not 'clearly male', at least from my interpretation.  That is not saying they couldn't be male, but they all have aspects that make me question it.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2018, 02:34:10 PM »
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A LOT of classic art depicts males in a rather feminine looking manner. That doesn’t make them female though.
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2018, 02:48:25 PM »
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A LOT of classic art depicts males in a rather feminine looking manner. That doesn’t make them female though.

What about angel at bethesda or angel from the sun? I could see the case made for either of them.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2018, 03:28:08 PM »
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A LOT of classic art depicts males in a rather feminine looking manner. That doesn’t make them female though.

What about angel at bethesda or angel from the sun? I could see the case made for either of them.

What about the Might Warrior art you considered of the knight. That looked distinctly female.  ::)
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Four Living Creatures gender
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2018, 03:58:36 PM »
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A LOT of classic art depicts males in a rather feminine looking manner. That doesn’t make them female though.

What about angel at bethesda or angel from the sun? I could see the case made for either of them.

What about the Might Warrior art you considered of the knight. That looked distinctly female.  ::)

I'd disagree that it was "distinctly female," and I explained to you that it was Sir Galahad. And after that, you changed your mind about if it was a female. So, I'm not saying these are females, but I think it should be considered.
If you can show me that they are not, I'll accept it. If you can't, I'll still accept the ruling, but I just think it'd be cooler and more interesting from a gameplay perspective if they were female.
And a side note, (not that it proves anything) but Henry John Stock made art of females primarily, so that gives some strength to the angel from the sun argument. I couldn't find anything about Alison Carr, so I can't really say for angel at bethesda, but I had always thought it was a female. 
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