Author Topic: Deactivating Artifacts  (Read 2862 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Deactivating Artifacts
« on: July 15, 2019, 02:13:01 AM »
0
So I was looking through the REG the other day and noticed that in the list of actions that can be taken during Prep Phase, "Deactivate an artifact" was not listed. It's been my understanding forever that simply deactivating an artifact without necessarily activating another in its place was a valid action in prep. Is this not actually the case or is it just missing from the REG?

Furthermore, this got me thinking, if you can actually deactivate artifacts during prep, are there limitations on doing so? Could I activate an artifact with an instant effect to get the value from it then immediately deactivate it to protect it from being removed during battle or are you not able to deactivate artifacts unless they were activated on a previous turn?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 02:15:40 AM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Bobbert

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • The player formerly known as Thomas Hunter
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2019, 08:40:10 AM »
0
By my understanding, deactivating an artifact is part of the "activate an artifact" action. That said, you can choose to deactivate your active artifact and not activate a new one.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+47)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2019, 10:06:08 AM »
0
From my understanding, and the way I’ve seen it played in just about every game, is you can deactivate an artifact that’s on the art pile and reactivate a different art on the pile. But you couldn’t deactivate say, CwD so you can play a TC enh, then reactivate CwD.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 10:53:46 AM »
0
From my understanding, and the way I’ve seen it played in just about every game, is you can deactivate an artifact that’s on the art pile and reactivate a different art on the pile. But you couldn’t deactivate say, CwD so you can play a TC enh, then reactivate CwD.

+1
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 11:16:46 AM »
0
From my understanding, and the way I’ve seen it played in just about every game, is you can deactivate an artifact that’s on the art pile and reactivate a different art on the pile. But you couldn’t deactivate say, CwD so you can play a TC enh, then reactivate CwD.

If CwD is your only artifact, can you deactivate it and leave it deactivated or are you forced to keep it active until you get a new artifact to put in its place?

Offline 777Godspeed

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Breathe redemption into wasted life, Breathe deep
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2019, 11:27:20 AM »
0
During your Prep Phase you could deactivate CwD. You don't have to activate another Art, you can choose to have none active.

How about in the case of Moses Staff on Moses - You may take an Exodus Plague from deck (or Reserve if active on Moses). At anytime, you may discard this card to discard an animal. Exodus Plagues are regardless of protect abilities.
     My understanding is the first sentence happens upon activation. Which is once, unless deactivated then reactivated. But it was asked, does that first sentence somehow by default reactivate each Prep Phase? Reason being it says "active on Moses" indicating a state of already having been activated and now sitting idle/waiting. Whereas "activated on Moses" would indicate an action taking place to have X happen and the action would have to take place again in order for X to happen again.

Godspeed,
Mike
Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery
When in doubt  D3.
I support Your Turn Games.

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+47)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2019, 11:39:20 AM »
0
During your Prep Phase you could deactivate CwD. You don't have to activate another Art, you can choose to have none active.

How about in the case of Moses Staff on Moses - You may take an Exodus Plague from deck (or Reserve if active on Moses). At anytime, you may discard this card to discard an animal. Exodus Plagues are regardless of protect abilities.
     My understanding is the first sentence happens upon activation. Which is once, unless deactivated then reactivated. But it was asked, does that first sentence somehow by default reactivate each Prep Phase? Reason being it says "active on Moses" indicating a state of already having been activated and now sitting idle/waiting. Whereas "activated on Moses" would indicate an action taking place to have X happen and the action would have to take place again in order for X to happen again.

Godspeed,
Mike

The activating location has nothing to do with the artifact's ability reactivating during Prep phase.  It would be the same if you had activated Moses' Staff on your art pile instead of on Moses--it would still reactivate (ability-wise) during your prep phase, so you can snag an Exodus plague each prep phase so long as the staff is still active and hasn't been negated.  So whether it's on Moses or on the art pile, the ability still activates each prep phase, at which time you carry out its ability.
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

Offline 777Godspeed

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Breathe redemption into wasted life, Breathe deep
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2019, 12:43:28 PM »
0
I understand the location portion, what I wasn't understanding was the language portion.
Activated happens once unless deactivated then reactivated.
Active is an ongoing state.
    I activated a light switch that turned on the lights.
Activated light switch happened once.
Lights are on, thus active and ongoing, until I deactivate the light switch.
Deactivating would allow me to reactivate otherwise I can't reactivate what was never deactivated.

But Redemption isn't this simple, so I referred to the REG and this seems to cover it:
Activate
Activate can mean four things:
• A player can activate an Artifact by putting it face up on their Artifact pile or another
location that allows an activated Artifact to be put there, or by declaring that a face-up
Artifact remains active.
(or I declare it reactivated... Mike)
• The special ability of a card activates when the card is played, unless it is a non-territory
class character or rainbow site being put in territory.
• When the special ability on a card activates, the abilities on a card activate in the order
printed on the card or order gained, unless changed by the Ability Activation Order.
• Effects of an ability activate depending on the method of activation – immediate,
activated or triggered.

For me at least, this seems more applicable to Arts such as Given Over to Egypt - On activation, if an Egyptian is in play, discard the top card of each opponent's deck. If any are Lost Souls, put them in play instead, and discard this Curse at the end of the phase.

Activation is a singular event and I would have to declare it reactivated during my Prep Phase, NOT a default condition in which it automatically reactivates on its' own.

I see the language on Moses Staff reading like this: On activation (singular action to be declared reactivated each Prep phase) you may take an Exodus Plague from deck (or Reserve if active/equipped (thus ongoing) on Moses each Prep Phase).
I know it is small, but there is a subtle difference between the 2 parts of the sentence. I liken it to this part of BotC - Each upkeep, if a Covenant is here, you may draw 1.
When it happens, condition to be met, action to take.
Moses Staff on Moses would read similar only it would happen in the Prep Phase.

I will quit rambling. I seemingly understand it better now.

Godspeed,
Mike


Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery
When in doubt  D3.
I support Your Turn Games.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2019, 02:04:09 PM »
0
During your Prep Phase you could deactivate CwD. You don't have to activate another Art, you can choose to have none active.

If the current rules allow me to deactivate an artifact without activating a new one, what prevents me from deactivating an already activate artifact like Lacking Prophesy, playing dominants, then activating it as my 1 artifact activate for the turn?

Offline 777Godspeed

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Breathe redemption into wasted life, Breathe deep
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2019, 02:38:26 PM »
0
Nothing... unless there was a rule change during the time I was inactive or I just have this totally wrong (which could be the case). But I would suspect that an opponent could ask for Dom inish also while you have Lacking Prophecy deactivated and play Doms also.

Godspeed,
Mike
Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery
When in doubt  D3.
I support Your Turn Games.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2019, 02:41:51 PM »
0
Nothing... unless there was a rule change during the time I was inactive or I just have this totally wrong (which could be the case). But I would suspect that an opponent could ask for Dom inish also while you have Lacking Prophecy deactivated and play Doms also.

Godspeed,
Mike

And yet there is an elder ruling in this very thread saying that you can't actually do that.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 02:45:25 PM »
0
Ever since Lampstand of the Sanctuary was printed, the rule was that you could not deactivate Lampstand, play Falling Away and then reactivate Lampstand unless a specific ability allowed you to activate an artifact--so you could deactivate Lampstand, activate Urim and Thummim and then reactivate Lampstand. (Obviously with the Falling Away question, there would be no window in that situation in which to play FA)

Perhaps the updated REG does not reflect that (or is a bit unclear). In any case, the Elder team has begun a discussion regarding this issue.

Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 02:49:35 PM »
0
Perhaps the updated REG does not reflect that (or is a bit unclear). In any case, the Elder team has begun a discussion regarding this issue.

Glad to hear.

Something to consider in that discussion is the scenario where I have something like False Prophets in my territory holding RBD and Lacking Prophesy in my art pile. Can I activate RBD on my art pile (thereby deactivating LP), play dominants, then activate LP on False Prophets? The current rules seem to allow me to even if I can't deactivate an artifact without activating a new one in its place.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 03:02:17 PM »
0
Perhaps the updated REG does not reflect that (or is a bit unclear). In any case, the Elder team has begun a discussion regarding this issue.

Glad to hear.

Something to consider in that discussion is the scenario where I have something like False Prophets in my territory holding RBD and Lacking Prophesy in my art pile. Can I activate RBD on my art pile (thereby deactivating LP), play dominants, then activate LP on False Prophets? The current rules seem to allow me to even if I can't deactivate an artifact without activating a new one in its place.

This is not an official ruling because we are still discussing, but this is how I've understood artifact activations:

For clarity, False Prophets only holds single-brigade Curses, but if we pretend Lacking Prophecy is single brigade for the sake of the discussion, I would say no to your question.

You could swap the locations of the two curses but only as a single action.

If you move RBD from False Prophets to the Art pile, that inherently deactivates Lacking Prophecy, which you would then have the opportunity to activate on False Prophets (or another location such as Damascus), but it would have to be done in one step without other cards being played in between.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline 777Godspeed

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+29)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1985
  • Breathe redemption into wasted life, Breathe deep
    • -
    • Northwest Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2019, 03:29:16 PM »
0
Perhaps the updated REG does not reflect that (or is a bit unclear). In any case, the Elder team has begun a discussion regarding this issue.

Glad to hear.

Something to consider in that discussion is the scenario where I have something like False Prophets in my territory holding RBD and Lacking Prophesy in my art pile. Can I activate RBD on my art pile (thereby deactivating LP), play dominants, then activate LP on False Prophets? The current rules seem to allow me to even if I can't deactivate an artifact without activating a new one in its place.

This is not an official ruling because we are still discussing, but this is how I've understood artifact activations:

From the REG:
Activate an Artifact
Last Updated: 5/7/2019 (v6.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
How to Play
● An activate an Artifact effect allows a player to activate an Artifact in a location they control during a phase
other than the Preparation Phase or an additional time during the Preparation Phase.
● If an Artifact is activated on another card and the underlying card is relocated, the activated Artifact is generally
relocated (regardless of protect effects) to the same location that the underlying card is relocated to and remains
there. The exception to this rule is:
1 When a character is captured or rescued, all Artifacts activated on that character are discarded.
● An activate an Artifact effect targets the Artifact that is activated.
● Unless otherwise specified, targets must be in holder’s Artifact pile or hand. If the target is in the Artifact pile, it
must be inactive.
● Unless otherwise specified, the target is activated on the Artifact pile or any legal location for that Artifact.
● Unless otherwise specified, there is a limit of one activated Artifact on each legal location. If an activate an
Artifact effect activates an Artifact in a location that was already at its limit for active Artifacts, an Artifact
already there is deactivated before the new Artifact is activated.
● All activate an Artifact effects are instant.
Special Conditions
● If an Artifact is activated on a card rather than on the Artifact pile, it returns to the Artifact pile when
deactivated.
● If an activate an Artifact effect activates an Artifact, Covenant or Curse in a location with a hold effect that
targets Artifacts, Covenants or Curses, that Artifact, Covenant or Curse must be targetable by the hold effect to
be targetable by the activate an Artifact effect.

And from the REG under Glossary of Terms:
Activate
Activate can mean four things:
• A player can activate an Artifact by putting it face up on their Artifact pile or another
location that allows an activated Artifact to be put there, or by declaring that a face-up
Artifact remains active.
• The special ability of a card activates when the card is played, unless it is a non-territory
class character or rainbow site being put in territory.
• When the special ability on a card activates, the abilities on a card activate in the order
printed on the card or order gained, unless changed by the Ability Activation Order.
• Effects of an ability activate depending on the method of activation – immediate,
activated or triggered.

Artifact
An Artifact is a card having a continuing effect in the game. A grail or serpent icon in the
icon box shows the card is an Artifact. An Artifact is activated when it is put face up on the
Artifact pile or another location where Artifacts may be activated, and remains active while it
remains face up. While an Artifact is active, its abilities are active. Unless otherwise
specified, abilities on Artifacts are used when the Artifact is activated.

Artifact Pile
The Artifact pile contains a player’s grail and serpent icon cards. This pile is in the player’s
territory within the Field of Play. All Artifacts in an Artifact pile are put face down in a pile,
except for a currently activated Artifact. See Player’s Card Arrangement in the rulebook.

Where else should I be looking for the Lampstand/Falling Away, CwD/TC enhs and such...
The REG doesn't seemingly prohibit these from being legal plays. I just want to understand so as a Host/Judge I can rule correctly and as a player exploit those rulings to the best of my ability.  ;D


Godspeed,
Mike





Divine mental biopsy reveals you need psychosurgery
When in doubt  D3.
I support Your Turn Games.

Offline Watchman

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+47)
  • *****
  • Posts: 2487
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: Deactivating Artifacts
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2019, 04:13:19 PM »
-1
Perhaps the updated REG does not reflect that (or is a bit unclear). In any case, the Elder team has begun a discussion regarding this issue.

While you guys are discussing this, how about this question I asked a while ago but was never clarified.

It was in regards to if face down artifacts can be targeted by cards that do not specify that they can be targeted (such as the first part of the below sentence from the REG). It was mentioned by an elder that the last part of the below sentence (bold part) implies that they can be.  But another elder said it wasn’t that clear. My question was never answered. 

Face down cards are only targetable by abilities that specify they can target face down cards or inactive Artifacts, or cards that can target any or all cards in a location.

Here’s the original thread:

http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/targeting-face-down-artifacts/msg596500/#msg596500
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 04:16:48 PM by Watchman »
Overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and don't love your life to the death!

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal