Author Topic: Artifacts automatically activate? (Read 4684 times)

emonier · « **on:** April 03, 2018, 11:17:39 AM »

Are artifacts (such as captured ark) always going to "turn on" at the beginning of the holder's turn?
And, if so, with captured ark, what if there are no artifacts to shuffle, does that still count as an activation? Holy Grail similar.

Thanks

Watchman · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2018, 12:13:03 PM »

If you activate an artifact then it’s considered an activated artifact. When the ability activates, however, is dependent upon what the wording on the ability says. In regards to CA, if you activate it and there’s an active art in oppoennt’s territory then it would get shuffled and that would count as one of two times CA works. If you activate it and there’s no active art then it’s still considered an activation and you burned up one of two times for nothing.

emonier · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2018, 12:49:27 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 03, 2018, 12:13:03 PM

If you activate an artifact then it’s considered an activated artifact. When the ability activates, however, is dependent upon what the wording on the ability says. In regards to CA, if you activate it and there’s an active art in oppoennt’s territory then it would get shuffled and that would count as one of two times CA works. If you activate it and there’s no active art then it’s still considered an activation and you burned up one of two times for nothing.

OK, so given the way artifacts are "activated" -- I would have to remember to "DE-activate" the CA at the beginning of my turn, or it will automatically activate and burn up one of its uses (if I forgot and left it face-up)?

Wow, thanks,

E

Watchman · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2018, 12:52:18 PM »

Negative. When the card reads “upon activation” you have to manually deactivate then activate it (or you can simply say that you’re reactivating it). If you left it active by accident on your next turn it’s ability would not trigger and thus be used a second time, but it can still be targeted as an active artifact since it’s face up.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2018, 01:07:15 PM »

Actually, that's not quite accurate. If an Artifact with limited use is left active by accident, that still counts as an activation. If something should have happened as a result (i.e. Cap Ark shuffling an Artifact) then the game state should be repaired if possible.

While it won't matter in the majority of cases, there are certain cards that say "If a Curse is active" or "If a Covenant is active" -- and if that Artifact/Curse/Covenant should have been discarded due to a limited use (like Captured Ark) then it does make a difference.

emonier · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2018, 01:07:52 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 03, 2018, 12:52:18 PM

Negative. When the card reads “upon activation” you have to manually deactivate then activate it (or you can simply say that you’re reactivating it). If you left it active by accident on your next turn it’s ability would not trigger and thus be used a second time, but it can still be targeted as an active artifact since it’s face up.

OK, so would CA automatically "trigger" as soon as anyone in the game activated an artifact on the table?
(And then, it would be used immediately to shuffle the opponent's artifact?)
Thus, it would happen during someone else's turn?

Thanks

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2018, 01:08:23 PM »

No, if you forget and leave captured ark up with no other artifacts to shuffle and then proceed to the next phase, captured ark is used once.

Instaposted

The Guardian · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2018, 01:38:49 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on April 03, 2018, 01:08:23 PM

No, if you forget and leave captured ark up with no other artifacts to shuffle and then proceed to the next phase, captured ark is used once.

Instaposted

Correct.

emonier · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2018, 02:45:34 PM »

So, if I leave CA out (active) for two turns, it is DONE no matter what?

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »

That is correct.

Watchman · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2018, 08:52:10 PM »

Why does it say “upon activation” do X? What’s the point of those words if the art is already active and your next prep phase arrives and it automatically reactivates itself by default? The “upon” is conditional that it must be activated. And when I see that word (activation) I understand it to mean it’s manually turned up or a player intentionally announces its activation again.

The Guardian · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2018, 09:09:52 PM »

Prior to RoJ, there was still inconsistency with how Artifacts with optional abilities were treated. For many years, Darius' Decree was ruled that because it didn't say "Upon activation" or "On activation" you could use the discard ability at any time. Therefore, when we made new artifacts (even up through CoW) that we didn't want to be done at any time, we continued to use those phrases to clarify they couldn't just be done whenever.

Beginning with RoJ (and I believe this is reflected in REG 5.0) artifacts always take effect when they are activated unless they have an "At any time" clause (Four Drachma Coin) or they have some sort of trigger (The Seven Trumpets). Going forward this will be good for consistency, but it does mean that we essentially have a lot of artifacts with extra wording.

Watchman · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2018, 09:49:50 PM »

So the words “upon activation” and “on activation” on every printed art are superfluous words and have no specific meaning any longer?

TheJaylor · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2018, 01:28:26 AM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 03, 2018, 09:49:50 PM

So the words “upon activation” and “on activation” on every printed art are superfluous words and have no specific meaning any longer?

Pretty much, yeah.

Quote from: emonier on April 03, 2018, 01:07:52 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 03, 2018, 12:52:18 PM
Negative. When the card reads upon activation you have to manually deactivate then activate it (or you can simply say that youre reactivating it). If you left it active by accident on your next turn its ability would not trigger and thus be used a second time, but it can still be targeted as an active artifact since its face up.
OK, so would CA automatically "trigger" as soon as anyone in the game activated an artifact on the table?
(And then, it would be used immediately to shuffle the opponent's artifact?)
Thus, it would happen during someone else's turn?

Thanks

You've probably deduced the answer based on the other posts made, but just to be clear, no, CA only triggers once, which is during your prep phase and you choose to activate it. Generally how it works with CA is that you do something that moves you into another phase (such as attacking, discarding, or passing the turn) and forget. Once you realize that you left it active then you shuffle any artifacts that were active at the time of your last prep phase as long as the game state is reparable in that way.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2018, 08:09:01 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 03, 2018, 09:09:52 PM

Beginning with RoJ (and I believe this is reflected in REG 5.0) artifacts always take effect when they are activated unless they have an "At any time" clause (Four Drachma Coin) or they have some sort of trigger (The Seven Trumpets). Going forward this will be good for consistency, but it does mean that we essentially have a lot of artifacts with extra wording.

Yay! In an effort to reduce cruft can we please, please, please get rid of the errata on Holy Grail? It served it's purpose, but is no longer needed,

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2018, 01:51:45 PM »

I think "once per round" counts as an "at any time" clause, so Grail still needs the errata.

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2018, 02:35:46 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 04, 2018, 01:51:45 PM

I think "once per round" counts as an "at any time" clause, so Grail still needs the errata.

That is my understanding as well.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2018, 05:12:00 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 04, 2018, 02:35:46 PM

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 04, 2018, 01:51:45 PM
I think "once per round" counts as an "at any time" clause, so Grail still needs the errata.

That is my understanding as well.

Every artifact, covenant, and curse--with one exception--except Holy Grail that uses the "Once per ..." (or just the word the "Once") have specific other trigger conditions that prevent them from being activated willy-nilly. Nothing would be negatively impacted at all by saying the "one human evil character per turn" is simply a restriction on usage, *not* an "at any time" clause.

The one exception to this rule, actually provides further support that "one per turn" was a usage restriction and not an "at any time" clause. The one artifact-like thingy with a defined willy-nilly activation is I am Creator. To make it clear that this is an "at any time" ability, and not just a usage restriction it specifically states "Limit once during each or your turns."

#FreeTheGrail

The Guardian · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2018, 05:22:08 PM »

I am Creator only works when it is activated, and has been ruled that way for quite awhile (I know originally it was ruled that you could use it "willy-nilly").

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2018, 08:10:39 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on April 04, 2018, 05:22:08 PM

I am Creator only works when it is activated, and has been ruled that way for quite awhile (I know originally it was ruled that you could use it "willy-nilly").

So then there are no artifacts that use "Once per whatever" to mean at any time, *except* apparently for Holy Grail. If we would stop ruling Holy Grail differently, then there is no need for the HG errata.

#FreeTheGrail

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2018, 08:30:24 PM »

The rule about "once per round/turn" is a general rule, not just for Artifacts - it was more to cover Peter/Luke/The Nobleman and The Four Living Creatures, but covers Holy Grail (and should cover I Am Creator).

Watchman · « **Reply #21 on:** April 04, 2018, 09:33:52 PM »

I'm trying to understand the logic how several cards with "upon activation" that have been around all the way up to CoW no longer really mean much and how an art automatically activates each prep phase instead of manually being activated. On top of this, the holder forgets his art's ability but remembers it in the battle or discard phase and then goes back and tries to find a valid target and try and "fix" the fact that the holder forgot about the art's activation. To me, it is much more simpler to stick with the wording that's on the card that tells you what to do instead of a hidden rule in the REG about how and when arts activate (no new player will know this, and some intermediate players won't know it either). It seems much more simpler to me if the holder forgets about activating the art then that's his fault and he missed his opportunity instead of having to try and go back and fix the problem when that phase has well passed. This new way of art's abilities activating seems to me more convoluted and broken than how it was prior to this change.

It's really sad to see how wording on cards don't have much meaning but instead is subject to so many "play-as," errata and rules from a very large rulebook(s) that override card wording (I understand that it is important with some cards in which errata is needed), especially when it's as recent as CoW. Why make something that was simple ("upon activation do X") more complex when it isn't necessary?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #22 on:** April 04, 2018, 09:53:38 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on April 04, 2018, 09:33:52 PM

I'm trying to understand the logic how several cards with "upon activation" that have been around all the way up to CoW no longer really mean much and how an art automatically activates each prep phase instead of manually being activated. On top of this, the holder forgets his art's ability but remembers it in the battle or discard phase and then goes back and tries to find a valid target and try and "fix" the fact that the holder forgot about the art's activation. To me, it is much more simpler to stick with the wording that's on the card that tells you what to do instead of a hidden rule in the REG about how and when arts activate (no new player will know this, and some intermediate players won't know it either). It seems much more simpler to me if the holder forgets about activating the art then that's his fault and he missed his opportunity instead of having to try and go back and fix the problem when that phase has well passed. This new way of art's abilities activating seems to me more convoluted and broken than how it was prior to this change.

It's really sad to see how wording on cards don't have much meaning but instead is subject to so many "play-as," errata and rules from a very large rulebook(s) that override card wording (I understand that it is important with some cards in which errata is needed), especially when it's as recent as CoW. Why make something that was simple ("upon activation do X") more complex when it isn't necessary?

When has "Upon Activation" and Artifact Activation not worked that way? Artifacts reactivating each prep phase has been the normal rules for more than a decade if I'm remembering correctly (I think Priests confirmed that), it was just decided that "Upon Activation" is the default for instant abilities on Artifacts so the text "Upon Activation" is redundant.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 04, 2018, 10:09:53 PM »

The artifact you leave up is the artifact you activated, doesn't seem too convoluted. Like if you miss an optional trigger, you can't go back it's just assumed you passed. It's much more complicated to retrain everyone to formally announce their artifact activation, because most people are not in the habit of doing that. But if captured ark isn't treated this way, to be consistent, how would you suggest treating three nails? I leave three nails up but don't activate it and my opponent doesn't block with demons because he thinks it's active. Yet on his turn I can block with demons because I didn't activate it?

The Guardian · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2018, 11:39:28 PM »

^Bingo.

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Author Topic: Artifacts automatically activate? (Read 4684 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13