Author Topic: Acts of Solomon  (Read 1973 times)

Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 03:54:21 PM »
+2
The ORCID shows a play as that just takes it to hand after exchanging so.....

So... what are you implying here?

That is doesnt work because of
Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

Acts of Solomon was intended to move the new card straight to hand, never entering battle. But exchange has been updated since then and there's not really a mechanism in the rules to alter either end of an exchange, so the exchange puts the card into battle.

Basically, Acts of Solomon was supposed to function like Faith (PoC), and has probably been played as such, but that's not what it actually says.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 03:58:42 PM »
0
The ORCID shows a play as that just takes it to hand after exchanging so.....

So... what are you implying here?

That is doesnt work because of
Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

Acts of Solomon was intended to move the new card straight to hand, never entering battle. But exchange has been updated since then and there's not really a mechanism in the rules to alter either end of an exchange, so the exchange puts the card into battle.

Basically, Acts of Solomon was supposed to function like Faith (PoC), and has probably been played as such, but that's not what it actually says.

Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?

Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 04:01:32 PM »
0
Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?

No, because:

Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 04:05:17 PM »
0
The ORCID shows a play as that just takes it to hand after exchanging so.....

So... what are you implying here?

That is doesnt work because of
Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

Acts of Solomon was intended to move the new card straight to hand, never entering battle. But exchange has been updated since then and there's not really a mechanism in the rules to alter either end of an exchange, so the exchange puts the card into battle.

Basically, Acts of Solomon was supposed to function like Faith (PoC), and has probably been played as such, but that's not what it actually says.

Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?
No, the exchange on AoS doesn't complete until the ability on the exchanged enhancement completes. Then, once the ability has activated and SI is resolved if necessary, then AoS continues on by placing that enhancement in your hand.

A similar case is The Watchman exchanging with Ezekiel. As part of the exchange you search your discard pile with Ezekiel, and then you get to draw or look at opponent's hand with The Watchman.

*instaposted but slightly more elaborate*
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2019, 04:06:48 PM »
0
Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?

No, because:

Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

I completely read that differently where the ability couldn't insert in between like that.  :doh:

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2019, 04:17:02 PM »
0
On a Side note the play as is worded

"Exchange this card with a good enhancement from hand and take it."

With that wording it seems like its definitely intending to be one action where it just goes to hand. Also considering under the REG exchange clause of

" An exchange effect may be paired with other effects to act upon one or more of the exchanged cards before the exchange completes. Often the paired effects will change the location of where their targets go."

Isn't AoS just doing what this clause says? Meaning before the exchange is completed due to the paired effect of take it it goes to hand as take defaults to hand?

Is it literally just the ruling Aggie mentioned that seems to override the REG in this instance or am I misinterpreting something?

I'm completely fine with being wrong I just want to understand why. Lol
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 04:22:05 PM by The Schaefer »

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2019, 04:31:04 PM »
0
On a Side note the play as is worded

"Exchange this card with a good enhancement from hand and take it."

With that wording it seems like its definitely intending to be one action where it just goes to hand. Also considering under the REG exchange clause of

" An exchange effect may be paired with other effects to act upon one or more of the exchanged cards before the exchange completes. Often the paired effects will change the location of where their targets go."

Isn't AoS just doing what this clause says? Meaning before the exchange is completed due to the paired effect of take it it goes to hand as take defaults to hand?

Is it literally just the ruling Aggie mentioned that seems to override the REG in this instance or am I misinterpreting something?

I'm completely fine with being wrong I just want to understand why. Lol

The exchange causes the exchanged for enhancement to activate it's ability in battle before being taken to hand.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
0
I disagree but will elaborate as to why later when I am not driving. I likely am still wrong due to an interpretational difference but Its situations like these that make it hard for me to reccomend Redemption to serious gamers. Rules interactions, wordings, and interpretations are atrocious for players. I'm very grateful to all those who have been working on bettering this and appreciate it. But mechanically Redemption is not a good game. Everything else is near top notch imo though.

Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2019, 05:04:45 PM »
0
On a Side note the play as is worded

"Exchange this card with a good enhancement from hand and take it."

With that wording it seems like its definitely intending to be one action where it just goes to hand. Also considering under the REG exchange clause of

" An exchange effect may be paired with other effects to act upon one or more of the exchanged cards before the exchange completes. Often the paired effects will change the location of where their targets go."

Isn't AoS just doing what this clause says? Meaning before the exchange is completed due to the paired effect of take it it goes to hand as take defaults to hand?

Is it literally just the ruling Aggie mentioned that seems to override the REG in this instance or am I misinterpreting something?

I'm completely fine with being wrong I just want to understand why. Lol

Because the Play As changes how the card plays, we should base the discussion on what the card actually says. The Play As is just what everyone thought it said until yesterday.

The REG quote is supposed to apply in this situation, but a) it only potentially applies to 2 cards (this and H Deck Great Faith) and it's just trying to rectify poor wording, so it may be unnecessary anyway, and b) it arguably doesn't apply in this situation because the exchange and put in hand are in 2 different sentences. Sentences can be tied together, but you usually complete the first before moving to the second.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2019, 05:49:08 PM »
0
I disagree but will elaborate as to why later when I am not driving. I likely am still wrong due to an interpretational difference but Its situations like these that make it hard for me to reccomend Redemption to serious gamers. Rules interactions, wordings, and interpretations are atrocious for players. I'm very grateful to all those who have been working on bettering this and appreciate it. But mechanically Redemption is not a good game. Everything else is near top notch imo though.

I understand your reasoning, and I wouldn't have a problem if it was interpreted as you suggest, but based on a strict reading of the card (ignoring all else except established definitions) it appears AoS works as described.

Sometimes definitions change and the change to some cards isn't recognized. (Though even if we had looked at AoS when defining exchange, I doubt we would have done anything differently.) And sometimes old cards that everyone assumed read one way actually read another way. (See also: Third Seal).
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Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2019, 06:10:20 PM »
+1
I understand the ruling is as you say it is. I do not understand as to why. Mostly because it seems like the Reg definition of exchange has a useless clause unless I'm missing somethingm the clause in the REG that I described earlier seems to clearly describe the situation and abilities of AoS and as such before it could activate and before the exchange finishes it would be taken instead of being played (according the the play as in the ORDIR). Now it could also be interpreted that before the exchange completes as relevant to that REG entry the ability must still complete but that isn't under that portion of the REG so that may be my confusion. Ultimately I really don't care how it's ruled. I'm good with however. The thing that frustrates me is how the rules interact with each other and how frequent this happens in the game. I want Redemption to make sense mechanically but it doesnt in all cases. This is just one such example and while it is functional  I don't feel that functional equates to good or adequate. But that's me. Redemption is a great game and I want to stress that and I want to emphasize my support of it and its future. Mechanically it struggles however and we shouldn't have these issues 25 years after inception nor just accept them imo. The issue of AoS may be small in the grand scheme of things but it highlights a larger issue one that keeps many from wanting to learn or continue to play once they realize that it's a beyond arduous task to learn the rules correctly.

I likely am just venting frustration so if an admin feels like deleting this for being off topic that's fine. I've just learned to accept that I'm often wrong and that the game is too complex to really care about knowing them all. Kinda frustrating but that's how it is.

Offline Sean

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2019, 08:57:50 AM »
0
I feel like this is an issue of old/bad wording, not an issue of game rules and definitions.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2019, 09:25:47 AM »
+1
I feel like this is an issue of old/bad wording, not an issue of game rules and definitions.

+1 though not even really bad wording...just wording from a time when things were not as clearly defined.
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Offline Noah

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2019, 12:29:14 PM »
0
What happens if you use AoS to exchange for Consider the Lilies or A Soldier's Prayer?

Consider the Lilies actual wording: "You may search deck or discard pile for a white N.T. Enhancement. Shuffle this card into that pile."

Consider the Lilies Play-As: "You may exchange this card with a white N.T. Enhancement in deck or discard pile."

These are clearly two different abilities because of how exchange swaps targets/cards whereas searching for an enhancement, adding it to hand, and shuffling this card into that pile is something totally different.

If the original wording from Consider the Lilies is correct, and it is searched for by AoS, will the shuffled copy of Consider the Lilies be added to hand from deck?

I hope that makes sense.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2019, 12:58:11 PM »
+2
Quote
If the original wording from Consider the Lilies is correct, and it is searched for by AoS, will the shuffled copy of Consider the Lilies be added to hand from deck?

That's definitely an incorrect Play As for CtL based on current definition of exchange.

If AoS was used to exchange to CtL (assuming you had a Hero that could use both Gold and White such as Jep's Daughter) then CtL would complete and be back in deck, and would then no longer be a valid target for AoS to add to your hand.
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Offline Noah

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2019, 01:29:45 PM »
+1
Okay. Also, I just noticed that the two Play-As for Great Faith are different,

Great Faith (Women) Original Wording: "Holder may search own draw pile and exchange this card with another enhancement card, then shuffle."

Great Faith (Women) Play-As: "You may exchange this card with an Enhancement from deck."

Great Faith (Deck H) Original Wording: "Exchange this enhancement with another good enhancement in your draw pile (You may place in hand or battle). Shuffle draw pile after exchange."

Great Faith (Deck H) Play-As: "Exchange this card with a good Enhancement from deck and take it or add it to battle."
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Offline Master Q

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2019, 02:23:28 PM »
+3
Kings was too advanced for its own good. :o

I know there's the whole "Ignore errata disguised as play-as" that people used to recite, but there really shouldn't need to be 'play-as' at all. Long story short, just errata cards like this (with outdated/wonky wording) to be played as intended already. For example, it never, ever made sense to me why things like Third Seal and its ilk worked around Coliseum. That kind of thing is nothing less than exploiting loopholes in older-worded cards, for no reason other than it's a loophole.

Or, you know, so many problems would be instantly solved with rotation of older cards...
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2019, 04:00:04 PM »
0
Awwww, but then we’d miss out on stupid things like this!  ;D
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2019, 04:23:41 PM »
0
Or just let rotation solve all our problems.

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2019, 04:35:56 PM »
0
So I'm not keeping up.  How does Acts of Solomon play currently

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2019, 05:01:39 PM »
0
So I'm not keeping up.  How does Acts of Solomon play currently

You exchange Acts of Solomon to your deck for a good enhancement. Since Acts is in battle when played, the exchanged for enhancement ends up being in battle after the exchange which causes its ability to activate. The ability on Acts then completes by putting the exchanged for enhancement in your hand.

Offline kram1138

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2019, 12:17:54 PM »
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While I think set rotation would be good, I personally love that we can find cool uses for older cards. I don't think acts of solomon in this form is too powerful or anything. It's just a slightly clunky way to recur an enhancement, or like a book of jashur that shuffles itself.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #47 on: April 26, 2019, 01:10:39 PM »
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While I think set rotation would be good, I personally love that we can find cool uses for older cards. I don't think acts of solomon in this form is too powerful or anything. It's just a slightly clunky way to recur an enhancement, or like a book of jashur that shuffles itself.

Actually, the interaction w/ Acts of Solomon and Book of Jashar is kinda scary.  But you need a hero that can play Gold and Blue to do it
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Offline Sean

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2019, 03:57:57 PM »
0
Soldier of God/Seeker of the Lost (the old one)

Coat of Many Colors/Gideon's Call (the old one)

I guess old cards work best with other old cards!

Also The Angel of Might
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 04:00:56 PM by Sean »
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Offline Noah

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Re: Acts of Solomon
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2019, 04:08:31 PM »
0
What actually happens if you exchange Acts of Solomon for Book of Jashar?

I was trying to think through it, but I couldn't figure out what Book of Jashar copies and what cards end up where.
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